Valid pronunciations of 'กวน'

[WesternRobby]

Hey,

 

I'm a new Thai learner and I'm struggling a little with the alphabet. Are both  'gwon' and 'guaan' valid pronunciations for the word 'กวน'? We can interpret it as an initial cluster and a hidden vowel or an initial consonant and 'อัว'.

 

'Guaan' seems to be the valid pronunciation according to the dictionary, but is there a rule for which pronunciation one would use in this case?

[carlyai]

Hey,

 

I'm a new Thai learner and I'm struggling a little with the alphabet. Are both  'gwon' and 'guaan' valid pronunciations for the word 'กวน'? We can interpret it as an initial cluster and a hidden vowel or an initial consonant and 'อัว'.

 

'Guaan' seems to be the valid pronunciation according to the dictionary, but is there a rule for which pronunciation one would use in this case?

As no guru's have answered, I'll have a go: kwon or kwan, I don't know where you get the 'g' from, but I'm no EXerPert.

 

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EDIT

What's the context? Have you got the sentance?

[Briggsy]

The pronunciation is "kuan" not "kwon". There is no way of knowing by just looking at the spelling.

 

However you unintentionally raise an interesting point. For words like กวาง กวาด, the pronunciation is of course 'kwaang' and 'kwaat' but some North Eastern speakers when speaking Central Thai go with 'kuang' and 'kuat'. This is a case of their accent impingeing on their pronunciation of Central or 'Standard' Thai.

[eric67]

There are a number of vowels that change their shape when followed by a final consonant. 

 

อัว is one of them, it changes to xวx (where the x's are consonants)

 

so it's still the same vowel ua, just with a different look. 

 

Same goes for:

อะ - อัx

เอะ - เอ็x

etc. 

 

 

 

[WesternRobby]

Thanks for the responses.

 

thai-language.com pronounces it with an initial 'g' which is where I got that from. My problem was that:

 

* กว + โ-ะ  + น

* ก + อัว + น

 

Are both valid ways of interpreting 'กวน'. I guess it's normal to have a little bit of ambiguity in a language

[tgeezer]

WesternRobby, I think that if there is a rule then it is to look for a vowel.

You have found the vowel เอาะ I think.

In words of two consonants รบ กบ ระบบ you can find เอาะ but here you have three consonants กวน So I think that the only vowel possible is อัว.

.

This may be a useful rule but please don't hesitate to point out any examples which you may know or find where this rule doesn't seem to work.

 

 

 

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edit: quickly before I get corrected!

The vowel you found is โอะ , I was mulling over what I had written and thought of the word รถ.

[MaeJoMTB]

goo-wan

No hidden vowels in that sara 'oowaa'

Edited December 6, 2017 by MaeJoMTB

[MaeJoMTB]

53 minutes ago, WesternRobby said:

Thanks for the responses.

 

thai-language.com pronounces it with an initial 'g' which is where I got that from. My problem was that:

 

* กว + โ-ะ  + น

* ก + อัว + น

 

Are both valid ways of interpreting 'กวน'. I guess it's normal to have a little bit of ambiguity in a language

No ambiguity  * ก + อัว + น is the only option.

[MaeJoMTB]

30 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

but here you have three consonants กวน So I think that the only vowel possible is อัว.

 

No, there is only 2 consonants in that word, อัว is a vowel.

[tgeezer]

No, there is only 2 consonants in that word, อัว is a vowel.

I know that, you misunderstand me. I am trying to see it from the poster's viewpoint, he has found three consonants. This is one step towards what you already know which he has yet to learn.


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[tgeezer]

Thanks for the responses.

 

thai-language.com pronounces it with an initial 'g' which is where I got that from. My problem was that:

 

* กว + โ-ะ  + น

* ก + อัว + น

 

Are both valid ways of interpreting 'กวน'. I guess it's normal to have a little bit of ambiguity in a language

Sorry if I seem to underestimate your knowledge I didn't see this post because I was replying to your original post.

กว+โอะ+น if such a word existed would have to be written โกวน wouldn't it?

 

 

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[carlyai]

How come I have to post before the EXerPerts?


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[tingtongtourist]

If you want to study some irregular word

i find it good to look up a similiar word you already know and see what differences

To me the sound byte they give for กวน sound a bit like อ้วน...but with no vowel of falling tone and add a gor gai in front.

 

The op dont really need to guess how to say กวน cause he can hear the sound byte.

What he want (i think) is a theory to read the different word

 

I just studied this myself and noticed the word 

กว้าน  which they translate "gwaan"

Where if you look at the difference you will either understand better 

Or be more confused!

 

 

 

 

[tgeezer]

It was posted when I was running in the park. I saw only your reply when I opened the topic while I was getting my breakfast. Posted my reply without refreshing the page which contained stuff which WesternRobby already knew or had been told.

I don’t think much of the iPad or maybe the app.

 

 

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Typical; this is an answer to carlyai another post has crept in between.

[tgeezer]

If you want to study some irregular word

i find it good to look up a similiar word you already know and see what differences

To me the sound byte they give for กวน sound a bit like อ้วน...but with no vowel of falling tone and add a gor gai in front.
 
The op dont really need to guess how to say กวน cause he can hear the sound byte.
What he want (i think) is a theory to read the different word
 
I just studied this myself and noticed the word 
กว้าน  which they translate "gwaan"
Where if you look at the difference you will either understand better 
Or be more confused!

 

 
 
 

If you look for a vowel you find สระ อา.
Confusion shouldn’t arise in any letter other than อ which is both vowel and consonant. I would say that more often than not อ is not said as a consonant in words of more than one syllable. One needs to know the word or look it up in the dictionary when encountered to know whether it is said as a consonant or not.


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[carlyai]

It was posted when I was running in the park. I saw only your reply when I opened the topic while I was getting my breakfast. Posted my reply without refreshing the page which contained stuff which WesternRobby already knew or had been told.
I don’t think much of the iPad or maybe the app.
 
 
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Typical; this is an answer to carlyai another post has crept in between.

Where you running?

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[tgeezer]

ถ้าว่างไปวิ่งที่สวนจตุจักตอนเย็น


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[MaeJoMTB]

33 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

If you look for a vowel you find สระ อา.
Confusion shouldn’t arise in any letter other than อ which is both vowel and consonant. I would say that more often than not อ is not said as a consonant in words of more than one syllable. One needs to know the word or look it up in the dictionary when encountered to know whether it is said as a consonant or not.
 

or a tone marker as in 'อยู่' and 'อย่าง'

Edited December 6, 2017 by MaeJoMTB

[WesternRobby]

3 hours ago, MaeJoMTB said:

No ambiguity  * ก + อัว + น is the only option.

Is there a reason that it can't be กว + โ-ะ  + น in theory? Even though in this case it happens to be pronounced ก + อัว + น.

[WesternRobby]

3 hours ago, tgeezer said:

Sorry if I seem to underestimate your knowledge I didn't see this post because I was replying to your original post.

กว+โอะ+น if such a word existed would have to be written โกวน wouldn't it?

 

 

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I thought that โอะ was the short form and that it isn't written at all when followed by a final consonant?

[tgeezer]

or a tone marker as in 'อยู่' and 'อย่าง'

.

Exactly, thanks for that.
อร่อย tone mark over the second consonant also, but this time the consonant represents a vowel. If there was a rule อย่าง could equally well be อะย่าง . It wouldn’t surprise me to find that some student of ancient languages would be able to say that it should be อะย่าง !


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[tgeezer]

Is there a reason that it can't be กว + โ-ะ  + น in theory? Even though in this case it happens to be pronounced ก + อัว + น.

I think that the fact of this topic going on is testament to the fact that it is not theoretically possible. Of the three ร ล ว only ว represents a vowel and to avoid confusion it has been excluded as the second letter in a cluster of a closed syllable which does not contain a vowel.
That is the best I can do.

[carlyai]

ถ้าว่างไปวิ่งที่สวนจตุจักตอนเย็น


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Ok, thought it might be lupinni. i used to saunter round there when you could still get a shot of live...nearly dead snake blood when you finished.
You get some there as well?

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[tgeezer]

I used to run round Lumpini about twenty years ago, there and back on the bus from Victory monument area. What is snake blood?


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[WesternRobby]

4 hours ago, tgeezer said:

I think that the fact of this topic going on is testament to the fact that it is not theoretically possible. Of the three ร ล ว only ว represents a vowel and to avoid confusion it has been excluded as the second letter in a cluster of a closed syllable which does not contain a vowel.
That is the best I can do.

 

I can work with that. Thanks

[carlyai]

I used to run round Lumpini about twenty years ago, there and back on the bus from Victory monument area. What is snake blood?


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At the gate/ fence nearly opposite where Brown Sugar (think that was/is the name of the Jazz place) was located, there was a guy with live snakes.He would cut them up, drain the blood and you could have a shot of snake blood to get you up and going. Good before you go to the office.
I never had any. Think it would be an acquired taste.
There was also this teacher I knew in Bangkok who kept snakes, drank their blood and smoked their poison mixed with gunja. He enjoyed eating snake penis, so he said. [emoji21]


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[Ahab]

My wife says it is Guaan, which means to stir or bother (depends on usage).

 

The first letter is a "G" sound (gor gai), but is often pronounced short, which could be confused as sounding like a "K"

[carlyai]

My wife says it is Guaan, which means to stir or bother (depends on usage).
 
The first letter is a "G" sound (gor gai), but is often pronounced short, which could be confused as sounding like a "K"

I still can't see the 'g' sound. Where do you get gor gai from?
Kuan, doesn't have a 'g' sound. To me anyway.
You've made me blow the dust of my Mary Haas dic and look it up: to stir, to stir up, to trouble, bother, disturb.





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[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, carlyai said:

I still can't see the 'g' sound. Where do you get gor gai from?
Kuan, doesn't have a 'g' sound. To me anyway.
You've made me blow the dust of my Mary Haas dic and look it up: to stir, to stir up, to trouble, bother, disturb.





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The first letter of the word is "gor gai" (followed by wor-wan, and nor-noo) and that is where the "G' sound comes from. I am nowhere near an expert on the Thai language, but I have memorized the alphabet, vowels, tone marks, and have learned a small number of the grammatical rules. I can read some Thai script if given a lot of time (and it is not in a funky font). But the first letter of that word is where the "g" sound comes from.

[carlyai]

The first letter of the word is "gor gai" (followed by wor-wan, and nor-noo) and that is where the "G' sound comes from. I am nowhere near an expert on the Thai language, but I have memorized the alphabet, vowels, tone marks, and have learned a small number of the grammatical rules. I can read some Thai script if given a lot of time (and it is not in a funky font). But the first letter of that word is where the "g" sound comes from.

But there's no gor gai in the Thai dictionary.
Sorry, I'm a bit dumb but I can't see it.

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