Thai Law: What Landlords Must Now Do (Or Go To Jail)

[Langsuan Man]

1 minute ago, LukKrueng said:

so again, a tenant of a room can't get direct supply from the electricity authority 

Not true, depends upon the condo

 

I lived in a condo in Pattaya and I went down to the electric company and paid for a meter to be installed in the hall way of my condo floor and I get my own electric bill every month (which my tenant pays at 7-11)

 

[tigermoth]

14 hours ago, Felt 35 said:

 Contract with a sensible condo owner and pay government rate, if through a rental company 7baht electricity and 35baht for water

I pay exactly twice the government rate and a fixed sum for water. I don't know what the water cost is but in my condo we pay a flat rate of 150 baht per month for up to two people.

[Thian]

19 hours ago, mercman24 said:

i asked why my water in Bangkok was about 100 baht a month, but my new address in Jomtien is a fixed 400, if i go over it is 500, no one could answer me. and they have done away with night security cant afford it lol just waiting for a scooter or car to get nicked.,

We pay 160 a month and use a lot of water.

 

But maybe in Pattaya the costs for purifying water are higher than in BKK because they do it on a smaller scale? Or maybe you get it at a higher pressure so don't need your own pump?

[kannot]

1 hour ago, newnative said:

     The 'rule of 5'  makes perfect sense to me.   Obviously, you have landlords with a few properties that they rent out to earn some extra pin money.  It's likely not their major or only source of income.  At various times I have had one or two rental condos and the rental income when the condos were actually rented and not sitting empty was helpful but I certainly didn't depend on it for my living.

    Then you have landlords that are renting on a much larger scale and they are, in fact, running a business with that many rentals.  It was, of course,  an arbitrary decision to set 5 as the magic number.  Part of the reasoning might have been to limit the number of landlords taken to court and eliminate the 'small potatoes' cases.  

     

 You could  own 4  condos at 6  million each and get a much  bigger  income  or 5  condos at 1.5  million each and get , not a  lot, the  law  theyve made is dumb. The  first owner doesnt  abide  the second has to so the one making the bigger bucks is  home free.

Wait for the outcry and total backtrack  like the migrant workers  balls  up.

Edited March 14, 2018 by kannot

[zaphod reborn]

1 hour ago, tigermoth said:

I suspect the five condo rule is a problem in translation. Any condo with five or more units, translated as a 'property' is meant. The five property stipulation also covers those owning individual properties.  This should be cleared up.

The size of the condo building is irrelevant, and there is no requirement that the units all be located in a single building.  Persons who lease more 5 or more residential units are subject to the act.

 

I trust that khaosodenglish, a reputable English language newspaper, would not get the translation wrong.  Their reporter indicates that the consumer protection statute uses the term "residential lease business" which is defined as

Quote

The regulations apply to a “residential lease business” – meaning landlords who rent out a total of five or more residential units.  renter protection act

I'm not sure how tenants are supposed to know whether the owner or agency rents 5 or more units, and, as this will need to be alleged in a lawsuit, the apartment owner will be able to engage in all kinds of shenanigans to show that he/she doesn't rent that number of units.

Edited March 14, 2018 by zaphod reborn

[Lemonltr]

2 hours ago, Emster23 said:

"Another prevalent conduct of landlords is to fix their own utility charges by marking up electricity, water, and telephone charges from the utility providers for a profit. Security deposits and arbitrary installation charges for installation of a landline and internet fees can only be passed on at cost."

 My place in BKK does that doubling scam for electricity. If I want a DSL line, there would also be a monthly fee for that although absolutely no work would be done to earn that cash, just another gouge. My landlord would also only allow connection to True, as her sister works for them...

 Is anything stopping landlords from just jacking up the rent if they can't get you with utilities scam? Our one year lease ran out a few months ago, asked the wife about signing a new one, and she said no need, we just continue on old one month to month (is that common?)

It is common ( at least in the uk) to sign a 6 month lease and stay for years just having a 1 month notice period for tenants and 2 months for landlords after expiry date.

Was similar ( 1 month for both)  in Thailand too but problems arose when producing an out of date agreement at immigration when they say "It's out of date, how do we know you still live there"?

Now I must get a new one every 6 months.

[LukKrueng]

2 hours ago, Langsuan Man said:

Not true, depends upon the condo

 

I lived in a condo in Pattaya and I went down to the electric company and paid for a meter to be installed in the hall way of my condo floor and I get my own electric bill every month (which my tenant pays at 7-11)

 

you quoted only the last part of that paragraph and doing so took it out of context. Here's the full paragraph:

As for electricity in apartment buildings (not condos) the building usually has one owner and the electricity is delivered to a meter just outside the property from where the building owner connect it to a board inside the building and distribute it to the rooms (apartments) so again, a tenant of a room can't get direct supply from the electricity authority .

 

as you can see, it is about apartment buildings (as in one of the early replies here some was talking about such in hua hin) and I actually mentioned specifically apartments and not condos

[newnative]

4 hours ago, kannot said:

 You could  own 4  condos at 6  million each and get a much  bigger  income  or 5  condos at 1.5  million each and get , not a  lot, the  law  theyve made is dumb. The  first owner doesnt  abide  the second has to so the one making the bigger bucks is  home free.

Wait for the outcry and total backtrack  like the migrant workers  balls  up.

        Whether the law is dumb or not, as far as I know it doesn't address the income being produced by rental A vs. rental B.   The rule of 5 is there, I believe, to try to distinguish between landlords managing a few rentals, regardless of their value, vs. those with larger numbers of rental units.  I think the new law also stipulates that if you fall into the latter category, you must get some sort of business license because, in the eyes of those who wrote the new law, you are considered to be operating a rental business when you are handling 5 rental properties or more.

[zyphodb]

TIT if the landlord is "connected" you won't get anywhere trying to get deposit back or doubled electric or water either back or reduced, you will just get thrown out for rocking the boat, unless you are prepared to spend lots of money on dodgy Thai lawyers, and years waiting for it to go through the system...  You might have more chance if you were Thai, which I'm sure is who the law is aimed at, but as a foreigner.....   

[tropo]

1 hour ago, zyphodb said:

TIT if the landlord is "connected" you won't get anywhere trying to get deposit back or doubled electric or water either back or reduced, you will just get thrown out for rocking the boat, unless you are prepared to spend lots of money on dodgy Thai lawyers, and years waiting for it to go through the system...  You might have more chance if you were Thai, which I'm sure is who the law is aimed at, but as a foreigner.....   

Why would a landlord boot a multi-year tenant like me for the sake of not wanting to refund one month's rent, especially in a market where long-term tenants are hard to find. That would be absurd. 

[tropo]

8 hours ago, Emster23 said:

 Is anything stopping landlords from just jacking up the rent if they can't get you with utilities scam? Our one year lease ran out a few months ago, asked the wife about signing a new one, and she said no need, we just continue on old one month to month (is that common?)

1

The state of the market prevents landlords from "jacking up the rent". Good luck doing that in Pattaya where it is currently a renter's market with bountiful options. Perhaps things are different in Bangkok.

[DILLIGAD]

Why would a landlord boot a multi-year tenant like me for the sake of not wanting to refund one month's rent, especially in a market where long-term tenants are hard to find. That would be absurd. 

Many things are here. Haven’t you noticed???


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[tropo]

4 hours ago, DILLIGAD said:

Many things are here. Haven’t you noticed???

 

 

Explain yourself.

[DILLIGAD]

Explain yourself.

I meant many things are absurd & illogical here


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[tropo]

30 minutes ago, DILLIGAD said:

I meant many things are absurd & illogical here


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Got it! Yes, I agree, but no landlord would boot me out to save refunding a month's deposit. That would constitute insanity. I used to aim to pay only a month's deposit if possible, but it isn't possible if dealing with a real estate agent. The owner has to pay the real estate agent 1 month for services rendered, so there's not a lot left over to cover damages.

Edited March 15, 2018 by tropo

[DILLIGAD]

Got it! Yes, I agree, but no landlord would boot me out to save refunding a month's deposit. That would constitute insanity. I used to aim to pay only a month's deposit if possible, but it isn't possible if dealing with a real estate agent. The owner has to pay the real estate agent 1 month for services rendered, so there's not a lot left over to cover damages.

Good plan but real estate agents are few and far between, outside a couple of the largest cities.


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[tropo]

2 hours ago, DILLIGAD said:

Good plan but real estate agents are few and far between, outside a couple of the largest cities.
 

 

This new law probably affects real estates companies more than any other businesses. People with large rental stock usually work with estate agents. In the sticks where people don't find real estate agents, this new law is probably largely irrelevant. Having said that, I'd bet that the majority of members on this forum live where real estate companies are a dime a dozen.

[Felt 35]

I have recently been in touch with one of Thailands greatest and well known property developer/agency and as far I was informed nothing gone to change with their rental policies after 1. Mai.

[Kieran00001]

On 3/13/2018 at 3:58 PM, zaphod reborn said:

This legislation is pretty meaningless.  There aren't that many landlords who own 5 or more units which they rent.  Moreover, it is easy to circumvent the law, by leasing any units in excess of this limit to family members or friends and having them be the subleasing agent to the real tenant.  Don't expect sophisticated consumer protection legislation from a bunch of unqualified army rejects.  There's absolutely no reason why they only applied this legislation to landlords with larger rental stock.

 

Regardless of how many properties the owner leased to family members in order to sublet, they are still the owner and they are still leasing more than five of their properties, so how would that get around the law?

 

[zaphod reborn]

50 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Regardless of how many properties the owner leased to family members in order to sublet, they are still the owner and they are still leasing more than five of their properties, so how would that get around the law?

 

 

Unfortunately, that's not the way the Consumer Protection Act works.  The definition of "residential lease business" is subject to the definition contained in the Act.

 

Quote

On 16 February 2018, the notice of the Committee on Contracts Re: Residential Leasing Business To Be Contract-Controlled Business (the Notice) was published in the Royal Gazette. Effective from 1 May 2018, the business of leasing premises for residential purpose where the operators lease out any building (rooms, houses, condominium units, apartments or any other kinds of residence except for dormitories and hotels) of five premises or more, whether or not such units are located within the same building, to individual tenants for residence (the Residential Lease Business) must be contract-controlled business under the Consumer Protection Act B.E. 2522 (1979).  http://www.conventuslaw.com/report/thailand-revisit-your-lease-agreements-residential/

 

The way the Consumer Protection Act was drafted was to regulate contract-controlled businesses and persons.  Therefore, a person or business who is the contracting party in 5 or more residential leases will be subject to the new legislation.  Property ownership is irrelevant. 

 

Quote   Part 2 bis Consumer Protection on Contract Section 35 bis. In any business in connection with the sale of any goods or the provision of services if contract of sale or such contract of service required by law or the custom to be made in writing, the committee on Contract shall have the power to provide such business to be a controlled business with respect to contract.  http://www.thailawforum.com/database1/ConsumerProtecting-law-5.html

[tropo]

I have recently been in touch with one of Thailands greatest and well known property developer/agency and as far I was informed nothing gone to change with their rental policies after 1. Mai.

Perhaps they need more time to think on it.


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[onlycw]

On 3/13/2018 at 9:16 PM, Felt 35 said:

 Contract with a sensible condo owner and pay government rate, if through a rental company 7baht electricity and 35baht for water

It's 8 THB for me and - despite a water meter, which has been read monthly - 150 THB for water. 

 

When I moved out, the PM claimed not to have the key to open the door behind which the electricity meters are, Mmm. Days later, the promised photo of my meter has yet to materialize.

 

Regarding the cleaning fee, not a word before or after. 

 

My colleague has been hit with some 1,000 THB for utilities nonsense. But hey, ripping off farangs seems to be a national sport.

[onlycw]

On 3/16/2018 at 12:43 PM, Felt 35 said:

I have recently been in touch with one of Thailands greatest and well known property developer/agency and as far I was informed nothing gone to change with their rental policies after 1. Mai.

This is big. At my place with perhaps 10 units, the sign says "8 THB per kw/h" on a notice board. Go figure.

 

Everything stays the same? So why have Thai LLs been clamoring for change?!?

 

 

[WonnabeBiker]

My landlady just raised the charge per kw/h from 7 to 8 THB. 

Has this law been enforced even once? One wonders.

 

But the trash collector, who found a DVD, he gets months in jail! 

[dcnx]

On 3/13/2018 at 3:58 PM, zaphod reborn said:

This legislation is pretty meaningless.  There aren't that many landlords who own 5 or more units which they rent.  Moreover, it is easy to circumvent the law, by leasing any units in excess of this limit to family members or friends and having them be the subleasing agent to the real tenant.  Don't expect sophisticated consumer protection legislation from a bunch of unqualified army rejects.  There's absolutely no reason why they only applied this legislation to landlords with larger rental stock.

There are ways to wiggle around everything here.

 

And once again, no enforcement. Just like the new smoking rules and all of the new laws before that. 

[dcnx]

On 3/16/2018 at 1:00 PM, Kieran00001 said:

 

Regardless of how many properties the owner leased to family members in order to sublet, they are still the owner and they are still leasing more than five of their properties, so how would that get around the law?

 

Did you just arrive?

[Kf6vci]

On 3/13/2018 at 4:52 PM, mercman24 said:

i asked why my water in Bangkok was about 100 baht a month, but my new address in Jomtien is a fixed 400, if i go over it is 500, no one could answer me. and they have done away with night security cant afford it lol just waiting for a scooter or car to get nicked.,

My Honda Africa Twin 750 was i. guarded 24/7 and ii. nicked. Champs Elysees condominium Tiwanon Road, Nonthaburi, near Don Mueang.

 

The managers embezzled the tenants' utility payments. Plural, it happened several times, no kidding. >1,000 units... What could go wrong?!?

[Kf6vci]

I've been ripped off shamelessly after the law has been established. Now, WHO will help the foreign tenants? 

[Thaifriends]

On 3/13/2018 at 6:03 PM, spidermike007 said:

This has to relate to apartment buildings, correct? Nearly all rental apartments are in buildings that are over five units, in Hua Hin, for example, and nearly all charge up to a 100% markup on electric, which should be criminal, and apparently it will be? About time. Wonder if these laws can be enforced? Or will the weak, hapless, super incompetent army government just ignore them, like they do all other laws?

We pay direct to MEA so bills are controlled. A friend pays electric on this building extortion charges. Then he took up the matter with owner and told them he will complain to concerned authority and electric, then they amended all his bills by amicable TH0.50/unit extra to which he agreed. Now his savings are approx THB600/month +++

 

So your point is so valid as thousands of house owners are extorting this illegal money. When leaving after 1 year of contract completion, cleaning fee THB30O-500 is taken.

[happy chappie]

I don't think this will affect me in anyway I rent 1 bungalow,1 house and two apartments and only to farang..I would only rent to thai if they pay double deposit and double rent and I can clear the place of furniture and board the windows up to protect them.

to farang I ask 1 months deposit fully returnable after a  leaving inspection and 1 months rent in advance.they have free wifi,tv,water and I charge 5b per kw for electric which is 0.3b over the actual cost but this covers all security lighting,electric gates,pumps and so on.

i don't advertise but I get good customers here in the jungle because I don't have these 3 months deposit,over the top charges for utilities that you'll gamble on ever getting back any deposit.

These new rules needed to be made as there are some really dodgy landlords out there and they are probably skimming the poorer people in life.