Survivors of Vietnam's My Lai massacre remember 'darkness and silence'

[thaiguzzi]

On 3/19/2018 at 11:43 AM, Grumpy Duck said:

I agree.. I understand Johnson made a lot of money off the war. I have heard that Brown & Root engineering was owned by Ladybird Johnson at that time. They had contracts to build airbases an other military installations in RVN. I believe Johnson was partially behind the Kennedy assassination. 

War = big business for the USA.

And you only have to look at the private American companies involved in wars and conflict from Vietnam, through the Gulf, to present day.

And then you dig deeper and see who are shareholders, board members etc etc, and it gets a bit dirty. Pretty filthy in fact.

Oil, Petroleum, logistics, private security, vehicle manufacturers, and weapons companies just love a good war.

[zydeco]

Atrocities on both sides. My Lai and scores of others by the Americans. And large scale murders such as the 3000 executed in Hue in 68 by VC. All for the world's silliest war. Vietnam kicked out the French and the Americans to find themselves being threatened by the Chinese. So, Vietnam and the US move closer again. And we're right back where we started.

[zydeco]

On 3/18/2018 at 4:44 PM, Thaidream said:

I am convinced Kennedy- had he lived- would have pulled out of Vietnam and brought the troops home .

Read David Halberstam's The Best and the Brightest. He traces the DC political machinations of the war. Kennedy was not the hero-to-be that would get us out of the war that so many thought. And according to Halberstam, who was the NY Times' reporter in Vietnam during the war, the counterinsurgency strategy was a pipedream destined to fail.  Two other good books: Stanley Karnow's Vietnam: A History and Neil Sheehan's A Bright Shining Lie. And considering your duty assignment, I'll bet you would appreciate Sheehan in particular.

[Thaidream]

When I was in Vietnam I heard the stories of  CIA interrogators throwing prisoners out of helicopters;  placing of 'death cards' on Viet Cong and NVA bodies; torture and mass killings.  While I know all of the above happened- the extent of it is unknwn. I doubt too many of the perpetrators will talk and the witnesses are gone.

There were also atrocities committed by the NVA and VC against the Americans and their own people.  

The war should have never been fought as it was based on false premises. Vietnam  was no threat to anyone. It sought no territory .  The American people were duped into believe that Communism was this galloping philosophy that would sweep the World unless America stopped it in Vietnam.  Had the Americans held out their hand to Ho Chi Minh- they would have found a willing ally.  Ho was more of a Socialist - he wasn't going to turn Vietnam into a Communist gulag but he wasn't going to adapt full Capitalism either.  That rankled the wealthy capitalists of the World who wanted to make money everywhere. Instead they made money going to war and never cared about the injured and dead.

 

The same can be said for today- Iraq; Afghanistan and now Syria- complete lunacy based on the premise that  Islam is threatening the World..  Bin Laden in the beginning had a few ragtag followers living in a cave.  America gave him a mission just like they gave one to Ho. History keeps repeating itself because of incompetent leaders.

[thaiguzzi]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

The war should have never been fought as it was based on false premises. Vietnam  was no threat to anyone. It sought no territory .  The American people were duped into believe that Communism was this galloping philosophy that would sweep the World unless America stopped it in Vietnam.

"The Domino Effect".

 

"Once one country falls, they all will, like dominoes."

Goddamm Commies - a great danger to our way of life and Western civilization etc etc etc.

Edited March 21, 2018 by thaiguzzi

[Thongkorn]

Was this whole inccedent the result of experimenting with drugs to make active Soliders more aggresive. Was it not called Jacobs ladder. Thought I read it somewhere.

[geriatrickid]

On 3/17/2018 at 3:04 AM, Baerboxer said:

And there has never been any justice for the victims nor will there be.

Perhaps because many were  killed off by Viet Cong during one of the many purges. 

[geriatrickid]

3 hours ago, Thongkorn said:

Was this whole inccedent the result of experimenting with drugs to make active Soliders more aggresive. Was it not called Jacobs ladder. Thought I read it somewhere.

No. It was cowardice from the command personnel and a breakdown of discipline. Incidents of this kind occur when the  enlisted men have no respect for their NCOs or junior officers, when senior officers are nowhere to be seen and where command officers are disengaged and clueless. The Korean War had some worse atrocities. The cowards and criminals were a minority and  tarred those  who were honourable and decent. 

[Grumpy Duck]

11 hours ago, thaiguzzi said:

War = big business for the USA.

And you only have to look at the private American companies involved in wars and conflict from Vietnam, through the Gulf, to present day.

And then you dig deeper and see who are shareholders, board members etc etc, and it gets a bit dirty. Pretty filthy in fact.

Oil, Petroleum, logistics, private security, vehicle manufacturers, and weapons companies just love a good war.

It is called the Military Industrial Complex, (MIC). Eisenhower warned us of the MIC in his farewell address. The complex he helped create. They and their profits are the reason we have been involved in continual military conflicts since the end of WWII. War is our biggest profit maker. And who owns the MIC? Wall Street big investors, the same who own the government.

One example, Israel, since around the 1960’s we have provided around $2 billion a year in military aid to Israel, money that can only be spent on US made arms and ammunition. Oopsie, more corporate welfare for the MIC I am not up to date perhaps, but Israel is the #1 recipient, and either Egypt or Afghanistan has been #2 in military aid from the US. 

 

Two great societies were destroyed by conquering more land and people than they could control. Our domination will end us the same way. Next conqueror? Communist China? 

[ThaiFelix]

12 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Had the Americans held out their hand to Ho Chi Minh- they would have found a willing ally.  Ho was more of a Socialist - he wasn't going to turn Vietnam into a Communist gulag but he wasn't going to adapt full Capitalism either.

Correct.  Ho Chi Minh approach the US on several occasions in the early days seeking their help against the French.  He initially admired the US and thought they would understand his country's plight due to their similar fight for independence from the British.  The US expressed sympathy and a promise of help in the beginning but later stabbed Ho in the back when they gave support to the French.  In doing so the US forced Ho into the hands of the Soviets and communism because he had nowhere else to turn.  This scenario has been repeated many times by the US over the years. 

 

Another good example is Cuba.  Castro had no plans for his country to become communist.....he merely wanted an end to US exploitation and freedom for his people.  The US was paranoid about having a free state so close to its shores as well as not wanting to lose the huge profits US companies were making there from sugar and fruit canning etc.  The US tried to force Cuba back into the fold by applying crippling embargoes and destroying crops etc and so, like Ho, Castro had no alternative but to approach the USSR for help.  In reality the US had more to do in spreading communism than the Domino Effect.

 

 

 

 

[ThaiFelix]

On 3/18/2018 at 10:27 AM, Langsuan Man said:

Not my Wikipedia:

 

emphasis mine:

source:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War

Yes you are correct.....today.  It is a while since I last checked but I did again tonight after reading your post and it has all been changed.  According to the revisions it has been changed 50 times in the last 7 days!  From what I believe just about anybody can contribute to a Wikepedia page and so adds fuel to what my History lecturer always drummed into me......"The is no such thing as the history, only a history".

[ThaiFelix]

On 3/20/2018 at 3:51 PM, katana said:

It wasn't a 'story' as you call it, but from John Pilger in his book Heroes, who was actually a journalist reporting from Vietnam where he was stationed for some time. If Mai Lai happened, it's not much of a stretch to conclude it wasn't a one off event. Are you saying Mai Lai didn't happen, or is exaggerated?

By the way, never heard your helicopter story before.

I have heard and read the helicopter interrogation story many times.  There were several strategies.  One was to take several prisoners up at same time, throw one out without saying a word and then question the others.  If they only had one prisoner to question he/she was blindfolded before lifting off.  If the prisoner didnt tell them what they wanted to know he/she was thrown out but unbeknown to the blindfolded prisoner the helicopter was back down close to the ground again so was able to be questioned further.  Combinations of the above were also used.

[ThaiFelix]

On 3/17/2018 at 5:38 PM, MrMuddle said:

No one from the US government, was ever convicted of war crimes, for any of the multitude of atrocities committed in Vietnam, such as Agent Orange, from which victims are still suffering today. 

In 1973, Henry Kissinger in Paris promised to pay $US3.25 billion (with a possibility of 1 to 1.5 billion more) in reparations for war damage to Vietnam. This was never paid.  In 1999 the US govt offered Vietnam $US3 million, but continues to hold Vietnam to the $145 million debt that the Communists inherited when they took over the South.

[Grumpy Duck]

On 3/20/2018 at 3:51 PM, katana said:

It wasn't a 'story' as you call it, but from John Pilger in his book Heroes, who was actually a journalist reporting from Vietnam where he was stationed for some time. If Mai Lai happened, it's not much of a stretch to conclude it wasn't a one off event. Are you saying Mai Lai didn't happen, or is exaggerated?

By the way, never heard your helicopter story before.

Not sure if you are commenting on my post or not. There is a quote icon for that reason. There is no doubt Mai Lai occurred. There is little doubt other massacres occurred but there are many stories I have heard that I doubt actually occurred. As far as the helicopter stories, serving 8 years in the Army during the period I heard many such stories. 

[Grumpy Duck]

2 hours ago, ThaiFelix said:

In 1973, Henry Kissinger in Paris promised to pay $US3.25 billion (with a possibility of 1 to 1.5 billion more) in reparations for war damage to Vietnam. This was never paid.  In 1999 the US govt offered Vietnam $US3 million, but continues to hold Vietnam to the $145 million debt that the Communists inherited when they took over the South.

I am not sure about money matters. But I find it interesting that Vietnam has been what used to be a GATT most favored nation trading status since the 1990’s

[katana]

9 hours ago, Grumpy Duck said:

Not sure if you are commenting on my post or not. There is a quote icon for that reason. There is no doubt Mai Lai occurred. There is little doubt other massacres occurred but there are many stories I have heard that I doubt actually occurred. As far as the helicopter stories, serving 8 years in the Army during the period I heard many such stories. 

If a poster replies to a post directly under that post with no other posts in between as I did, then there's no need to waste space by requoting it. Especially since I quoted the word 'story' you used and other tidbits form your post. so it was clear who I was replying to.

On 20/03/2018 at 1:44 AM, Grumpy Duck said:

I have heard many such stories myself. Often I doubt the integrity of many such stories. Such as CIA interrogators questioning prisoners in a helicopter then throwing one out for not answering, that story was also told as performed by ROK Army soldiers. 

 

War is ugly, 

 

A bit confusing as to whether you believe the helicopter story.

In the 2nd quote from 20/03/18 you say you doubt the integrity of it. However, in the first quote from 22/03/18 you seem to have shifted and say you heard many such stories and even give a like to Thaifelix's post confirming the stories.

[Grumpy Duck]

10 hours ago, katana said:

If a poster replies to a post directly under that post with no other posts in between as I did, then there's no need to waste space by requoting it. Especially since I quoted the word 'story' you used and other tidbits form your post. so it was clear who I was replying to.

A bit confusing as to whether you believe the helicopter story.

In the 2nd quote from 20/03/18 you say you doubt the integrity of it. However, in the first quote from 22/03/18 you seem to have shifted and say you heard many such stories and even give a like to Thaifelix's post confirming the stories.

First, when you quote a message the person receives a notice that they were quoted and can look back. The only reason I saw your reply was someone else quoted me and I stumbled upon your reply

second , I was not there when the helicopter stories took place so what I believe is not relevant. The stories were usually from a friend that told a friend. Which is not first hand experience. Many say John Wayne was a hero, he wasn’t, he never served his country. Just got wealthy making movies about the heroism of others. The reason for pointing this out is there are many stories of war, some are real others are not. 

third, I thanked thaifelix as he also confirmed hearing of the stories often when another person stated they never heard such stories.