Western Buddhists

[thaibebop]

I went to regular sessions with the FWBO and theravada buddhists in Brighton. Both were illuminating. The FWBO had a very nice, simple, non-traditional approach. The Theravada monks had to deal with feminists outraged by the idea of bowing to men!

How was that resolved?

[thaibebop]

What did he have in common with the middle class Thais?

An urban upbringing and university education.

Yes, I don't think right now western Buddhists will have a major impact within Thailand, or any Theravadian country, but what about the impact on the religion as a whole? Are western Buddhists making in imprint at all in East Asia?

Well, western Buddhists sure made a big impact on Sri Lanka in the past but if by East Asia you mean China/Korea/Japan I doubt there is any impact at all.

Tell me about Sri Lanka if you can, please? I haven't heard anything about this.

This thread should answer your question. It also contains other comments relative to the topic of Westerners and Buddhism.

Ah, I remember this!! Too bad I forgot it.

[camerata]

Tell me about Sri Lanka if you can, please? I haven't heard anything about this.

You can read the whole story here.

[thaibebop]

Tell me about Sri Lanka if you can, please? I haven't heard anything about this.

You can read the whole story here.

Cool, thanks a lot!!

[jamesc2000]

I really don't understand any of this my buddhism is better than your buddhism posts.

Btw can I just ask if your buddhism better than Buddha's buddhism?

James, you may enjoy this talk by my favourite Theravadan chappie.

Chutai you are absolutely correct! I enjoyed every minute of the talk by your favourite Theravadan chappie!

Funnily he is also my favourite Theravadan chappie!

[jamesc2000]

I really don't understand any of this my buddhism is better than your buddhism posts.

Btw can I just ask if your buddhism better than Buddha's buddhism?

I think I see what you are getting at, but my post earlier were making the point of people professing Buddhism, teaching or sharing with others Buddhism, yet they are so not close to practicing any of the teachings. Is this bad or good for Buddhism as a whole?

Yeah there is a lot of that but its every where! Buddhists that do not practise what is true Buddhism. Christians that do not practise true Christianity, Muslims that do not practise true Islam, Managers that don't practise management, law enforcement that don't enforce the law, democrats that dictate ....

Is it bad for Buddhism as a whole?

Buddhism can fade away or be forgotten but the truth can never be lost.

Isn't Buddhism just a vehicle or a way?

Surely it’s the destination that is more important?

[Brucenkhamen]

Is it bad for Buddhism as a whole?

Buddhism can fade away or be forgotten but the truth can never be lost.

Isn't Buddhism just a vehicle or a way?

Surely it’s the destination that is more important?

Very true.

Interesting how Buddhism seems unconcerned about things that other religions might brand as heresy and in less benevolent times would have lead to people being burnt at the stake.

[AYJAYDEE]

Its really no one elses business how others enter the stream.

[ade100]

I am wondering what people here might think of western Buddhists. It seems the more people I encounter that are from the west and claim Buddhism are really nothing but hippies who gave up following Jerry Garica. Maybe I am being too rough here, but they seem to ignore reality and common sense for some touchy feely verison of Buddhism they picked up from the book store. Maybe it's not their fault, maybe that's all the resource they have. But I rather think Shirly MacLane Buddhism will do no one any good.

I am a Western Buddhist and have been practicing a Japanese form of the religion, which is very popular in the West, for the last 20 years.

I am sure there are many Western Buddhists that fit the description given by the OP, but for me I would say the converse is true. While I practice, I chant every day, most of the Buddhists I have met in Thailand do not really practice the religion. They might have some statues of the Buddha and go to the temple on special days. I have no desire to criticise them in any way but for me Buddhism is much stricter. If I haven’t chanted today then I am not practising Buddhism, I am just talking about it.

Edited December 13, 2007 by ade100

[jamesc2000]

I am wondering what people here might think of western Buddhists. It seems the more people I encounter that are from the west and claim Buddhism are really nothing but hippies who gave up following Jerry Garica. Maybe I am being too rough here, but they seem to ignore reality and common sense for some touchy feely verison of Buddhism they picked up from the book store. Maybe it's not their fault, maybe that's all the resource they have. But I rather think Shirly MacLane Buddhism will do no one any good.

I am a Western Buddhist and have been practicing a Japanese form of the religion, which is very popular in the West, for the last 20 years.

I am sure there are many Western Buddhists that fit the description given by the OP, but for me I would say the converse is true. While I practice, I chant every day, most of the Buddhists I have met in Thailand do not really practice the religion. They might have some statues of the Buddha and go to the temple on special days. I have no desire to criticise them in any way but for me Buddhism is much stricter. If I haven’t chanted today then I am not practising Buddhism, I am just talking about it.

I take my hat off to your stickness.

So when you chant you practise Buddhism

and when you do not chant, that day you did not practice Buddhism.

So chanting = Buddhism!

Btw when you say the Japanese form, do you mean Zen?

I love Zen and their questions like the sound of one hand clapping!

I thought Zen don't have to chant but become enlightened when they answer those hard questions?

Edited December 14, 2007 by jamesc2000

[camerata]

most of the Buddhists I have met in Thailand do not really practice the religion. They might have some statues of the Buddha and go to the temple on special days.

In my experience most Thais practise dana, which is at least an authentic ego-reducing activity described by the Buddha in the Pali Canon (i.e. the Dana Sutta, etc).

I have no desire to criticise them in any way but for me Buddhism is much stricter. If I haven’t chanted today then I am not practising Buddhism, I am just talking about it.

I think you'll find there are as many "strict" Buddhists in Thailand as there are strict Christians in, say, the UK. That's how it is in most cultures. But it brings up the question of what is a strict/true/real/serious Buddhist. Even if I didn't meditate, I guess I would consider myself a "serious Buddhist" because I try to keep the five precepts, practise right speech and read Dhamma.

[ade100]

I am wondering what people here might think of western Buddhists. It seems the more people I encounter that are from the west and claim Buddhism are really nothing but hippies who gave up following Jerry Garica. Maybe I am being too rough here, but they seem to ignore reality and common sense for some touchy feely verison of Buddhism they picked up from the book store. Maybe it's not their fault, maybe that's all the resource they have. But I rather think Shirly MacLane Buddhism will do no one any good.

I am a Western Buddhist and have been practicing a Japanese form of the religion, which is very popular in the West, for the last 20 years.

I am sure there are many Western Buddhists that fit the description given by the OP, but for me I would say the converse is true. While I practice, I chant every day, most of the Buddhists I have met in Thailand do not really practice the religion. They might have some statues of the Buddha and go to the temple on special days. I have no desire to criticise them in any way but for me Buddhism is much stricter. If I haven't chanted today then I am not practising Buddhism, I am just talking about it.

I take my hat off to your stickness.

So when you chant you practise Buddhism

and when you do not chant, that day you did not practice Buddhism.

So chanting = Buddhism!

Btw when you say the Japanese form, do you mean Zen?

I love Zen and their questions like the sound of one hand clapping!

I thought Zen don't have to chant but become enlightened when they answer those hard questions?

Thanks for your support. I suppose it doesn't feel like being strict because if there is a day that I don't chant, I can really feel the difference. I just don't feel I am dealing with things as well as if I had chanted.

I also read a bit about Zen and really loved but it didn't seem like a very practical thing to really practice. I practice a Nichiren form of Buddhism. We chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo and for me it fits in with a modern day lifestyle. I can go to work, have a few drinks, have relationships, eat what I choose, etc.

I suppose there is more to Buddhism than just chanting, such as studying and gaining a better awareness of the religion and the philosophy. But as I say, if I am not chnating I don't feel like I am actually practising it.

[ade100]

most of the Buddhists I have met in Thailand do not really practice the religion. They might have some statues of the Buddha and go to the temple on special days.

In my experience most Thais practise dana, which is at least an authentic ego-reducing activity described by the Buddha in the Pali Canon (i.e. the Dana Sutta, etc).

I have no desire to criticise them in any way but for me Buddhism is much stricter. If I haven't chanted today then I am not practising Buddhism, I am just talking about it.

I think you'll find there are as many "strict" Buddhists in Thailand as there are strict Christians in, say, the UK. That's how it is in most cultures. But it brings up the question of what is a strict/true/real/serious Buddhist. Even if I didn't meditate, I guess I would consider myself a "serious Buddhist" because I try to keep the five precepts, practise right speech and read Dhamma.

I would agree with the comparison you make between strict Buddhists in Thailand and Christians in the UK.

For me personally I feel like a "serious" Buddhist when I am actively persuing a practice that will help me to change my karma. And changing an infinite lifetime's worth of negative behavioural and thinking patterns is no easy feat. I wouldn't ever want to look down on any other form of Buddhism but for me the daily battle with my negative karma and the joy of changing it is it what it's all about.

And even after 20 years of chanting there's still plenty more negative karma to change :-)

[jamesc2000]

These days the lines separating duality seem to blur for me.

The eastern Buddhist and western Buddhist, the little vehicle and the bigger vehicle are just names to me.

They are all just Buddhists! I guess all traditions and styles all seems good!

I am not even sure what is good or bad karma anymore, its all just karma to me!

But I guess with 20 years of chanting, it can only be a matter of time before the negative karma goes!

All the best.

Edited December 15, 2007 by jamesc2000

[sabaijai]

These days the lines separating duality seem to blur for me.

The eastern Buddhist and western Buddhist, the little vehicle and the bigger vehicle are just names to me.

They are all just Buddhists! I guess all traditions and styles all seems good!

I am not even sure what is good or bad karma anymore, its all just karma to me!

But I guess with 20 years of chanting, it can only be a matter of time before the negative karma goes!

All the best.

In Theravada Buddhism chanting itself has no effect on karma (action) or vipaka (result) but is used as an aid to calm the mind, educate and/or affirm.

[ade100]

These days the lines separating duality seem to blur for me.

The eastern Buddhist and western Buddhist, the little vehicle and the bigger vehicle are just names to me.

They are all just Buddhists! I guess all traditions and styles all seems good!

I am not even sure what is good or bad karma anymore, its all just karma to me!

But I guess with 20 years of chanting, it can only be a matter of time before the negative karma goes!

All the best.

In Theravada Buddhism chanting itself has no effect on karma (action) or vipaka (result) but is used as an aid to calm the mind, educate and/or affirm.

I would almost entirely agree :-) :My understanding of karma is that it is the result of all our thoughts words and actions.The only way to change it is through positive action. Chanting itself is an action so therefore must have some effect but I agree that in itself it is limitted. In my flavour of Buddhsim we believe that chanting allows us to manifest our (often dorment) courage, compassion and wisdom and therefore allow us to take more positive action and so to change our karma for the better. But boy oh boy its not easy :-)

[chownah]

Ade 10,

I don't think ALL of our actions, words, and thoughts create kamma....I think that kamma is made through these three things but it is possible to do these three things without making kamma too.

Chownah

[ade100]

Ade 10,

I don't think ALL of our actions, words, and thoughts create kamma....I think that kamma is made through these three things but it is possible to do these three things without making kamma too.

Chownah

Interesting. I think the standard Buddhist view is that "Karma is a sum of all that an individual has done, is currently doing and will do" (http://buddhism.2be.net/Karma) But could you explain more about what you mean. Maybe you could give and example of an action that would not create karma.

[chutai]

Ade 10,

I don't think ALL of our actions, words, and thoughts create kamma....I think that kamma is made through these three things but it is possible to do these three things without making kamma too.

Chownah

Interesting. I think the standard Buddhist view is that "Karma is a sum of all that an individual has done, is currently doing and will do" (http://buddhism.2be.net/Karma) But could you explain more about what you mean. Maybe you could give and example of an action that would not create karma.

Ade 10,

I don't think ALL of our actions, words, and thoughts create kamma....I think that kamma is made through these three things but it is possible to do these three things without making kamma too.

Chownah

Interesting. I think the standard Buddhist view is that "Karma is a sum of all that an individual has done, is currently doing and will do" (http://buddhism.2be.net/Karma) But could you explain more about what you mean. Maybe you could give and example of an action that would not create karma.

The idea that all actions create karma is a false one that Shakyamuni himself addressed (unfortunately I can't quote the source as I don't have the book it was cited in available to me in Thailand). That was a fatalistic Bramhanistic doctrine , rather than the real , active principle of karma. There are neutral acts that don't invoke a karmic reaction, e.g. Going to the supermarket. However, there are acts that create mutable karma and the immutable karma that we carry over lifetimes. But even the latter can be changed in this lifetime by strong Buddhist practice. But to view all actions as creating karma is just incorrect.

[chownah]

In Theravada Buddhism is is usually taught (I think) that intention IS kamma. It is the intention which motivates action, thought, and speach that makes kamma....or it is more correct to say that intention IS kamma. Kamma (intention) is the cause which eventually (can be immediately) leads to the fruits of kamma. So.....whenever you act without intention you do not make kamma. It is possible to act without intention. If it WAS NOT possible to act without intention then becoming enlightened would be impossible.

Chownah

[rockyysdt]

This is a very interesting discussion.

In point form I would make the following comments:

• When it comes to Buddhism and spiritual growth, it's the doing (practice) that counts.
  
• All of us have thoughts and beliefs which are colored by our upbringing and our egos.
  
• Where humans are involved any teachings or philosophies can, and often are, manipulated for power and profit.
  
• Many western buddhist organisations fall into the trap of creating businesses with money as the core aim rather than spiritual growth.
  
• Reading books on spiritual journeys help inspire you to keep on your path, as it's so easy through negative thoughts to cease practice.
  
• Although Thai people are buddhist, the majority treat it as a religion with custom and superstition, as do christians, rather than actually living and practicing it (meditation & mindfulness).
  
• Genuine places of spiritual learning will accommodate, feed and guide accepted practitioners with no expectation for payment, as is the customary practice since Buddha.
  
• Each practitioner must accept responsibility for their own spiritual growth, but will need guidance by an appropriate teacher. You may have many teachers in your lifetime, each presenting at the appropriate time in your growth.
  
• Except for the purposes of teaching another, bragging about the level of your spiritual competency is pandering to your ego.
  
• You can deceive others, but you can't lie to your heart.
  
• Although you can study and debate how you should lead your life, in time, you will automatically know what to do, through spiritual growth.
  
• No one can meditate. This is a contradiction as you are trying to do something. One simply presents oneself through ones practice and the gift will come.
  

Edited December 25, 2007 by rockyysdt

[camerata]

*Many western buddhist organisations fall into the trap of creating businesses with money as the core aim rather than spiritual growth.

Many? Can you give a few examples?

[jamesc2000]

This is a very interesting discussion.

In point form I would make the following comments:

• When it comes to Buddhism and spiritual growth, it's the doing (practice) that counts.

Buddhism and spiritual growth? I am not sure Buddhism is about spiritual growth!

I think Buddhism is about mindfulness and dont even know if Buddhists believe that they have a spirit or have thoughts of growing it!

Are you growing yours? If so, in what way?

[rockyysdt]

*Many western buddhist organisations fall into the trap of creating businesses with money as the core aim rather than spiritual growth.

Many? Can you give a few examples?

http://www.chopra.com/soulpricing

http://www.satyananda.net/shop/cart.php?target=main

http://www.tmprogram.com.au/

http://www.brahmakumaris.com.au/pages/courses.html

http://diamondway.org.au/

[rockyysdt]

This is a very interesting discussion.

In point form I would make the following comments:

• When it comes to Buddhism and spiritual growth, it's the doing (practice) that counts.

Buddhism and spiritual growth? I am not sure Buddhism is about spiritual growth!

I think Buddhism is about mindfulness and dont even know if Buddhists believe that they have a spirit or have thoughts of growing it!

Are you growing yours? If so, in what way?

One of my many personal bad habits is not being mindful about the words I choose.

This often leads to poor communication.

It's one of the many flaws in my character which I hope to correct through practice.

My ego and personality is quite flawed.

Having said that, I was loosely referring to reconnection with the infinite power which exists and which we are part of.

In our finite state we can't even begin to comprehend it, but our quest is to become reunited.

No words could ever be sufficient to describe it, although much inspiration exists attempting this.

Practice and actual experience is the way.

My reference to being spiritual is to describe my improved behavior through practice impacting on my actions and thoughts, and through enlightenment should this happen.

Edited December 25, 2007 by rockyysdt

[Brucenkhamen]

http://www.chopra.com/soulpricing

http://www.satyananda.net/shop/cart.php?target=main

http://www.tmprogram.com.au/

http://www.brahmakumaris.com.au/pages/courses.html

http://diamondway.org.au/

If you check those web sites you'll see only one of them is Buddhist, and all the Buddhist one appears to be doing is running a bookshop, hardly a "business with money as the core aim rather than spiritual growth".

The only example I know of where a Buddhist organisation runs businesses is the FWBO, have a feeling a few mahayana organisations do it to. I may be wrong but the empasis is on right livelihood rather than making money so much.

[Brucenkhamen]

Buddhism and spiritual growth? I am not sure Buddhism is about spiritual growth!

I think Buddhism is about mindfulness and dont even know if Buddhists believe that they have a spirit or have thoughts of growing it!

Are you growing yours? If so, in what way?

I think we all understood what he meant. I don't like the term either but I use it, it's just a generic term for personal development that may or may not have a dimension that could be called "spiritual".

[camerata]

From what I've read, the controversial "Lama" Ole runs Diamond Way more as a personal ego trip than a money-making enterprise.

[ade100]

Ade 10,

I don't think ALL of our actions, words, and thoughts create kamma....I think that kamma is made through these three things but it is possible to do these three things without making kamma too.

Chownah

Interesting. I think the standard Buddhist view is that "Karma is a sum of all that an individual has done, is currently doing and will do" (http://buddhism.2be.net/Karma) But could you explain more about what you mean. Maybe you could give and example of an action that would not create karma.

Ade 10,

I don't think ALL of our actions, words, and thoughts create kamma....I think that kamma is made through these three things but it is possible to do these three things without making kamma too.

Chownah

Interesting. I think the standard Buddhist view is that "Karma is a sum of all that an individual has done, is currently doing and will do" (http://buddhism.2be.net/Karma) But could you explain more about what you mean. Maybe you could give and example of an action that would not create karma.

The idea that all actions create karma is a false one that Shakyamuni himself addressed (unfortunately I can't quote the source as I don't have the book it was cited in available to me in Thailand). That was a fatalistic Bramhanistic doctrine , rather than the real , active principle of karma. There are neutral acts that don't invoke a karmic reaction, e.g. Going to the supermarket. However, there are acts that create mutable karma and the immutable karma that we carry over lifetimes. But even the latter can be changed in this lifetime by strong Buddhist practice. But to view all actions as creating karma is just incorrect.

There’s nothing like being told I am incorrect to make me get my act together and go do some study :-)

I have just read a load of articles on karma and I believe the key to this (as chowna mentioned) is “volition” or “intention”.

“The Pali term Karma literally means action or doing. Any kind of intentional action whether mental, verbal, or physical, is regarded as Karma” (http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/karma.htm).

“Every physical and verbal action is preceded by mental activity. Goodwill motivates a kind gesture; ill will motivates nasty words. Ill will is the intention to cause mental, emotional or physical harm. Thus, before and during a bad action, ill will is present in our mind. The presence of ill will before and during this act has an impact and influence on the mind due to which a certain potential is left behind. This potential is a karmic seed, a seed planted in our mind by physical, verbal or mental action.” (http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/karma.html#how)

It seems that the only action that would not create any karma would be an unintentional one. So for example if I accidentally tread on someone’s toe, I may have cased them pain but have not created any bad karma as there was no intention to do it.

The supermarket example is an excellent one. Let’s consider two scenarios:

Scenario 1: – I drive there like a maniac putting my own and other people’s lives at risk. I shout and make obscene gestures to other motorists. I park in the disabled spot as I don’t give a dam_n about people less fortunate than myself. I curse the fact that some items I want are out of stock and make rude comments to the staff about it.

Scenario 2: - I cycle or walk to the shop as I don’t want to pollute the environment and like to take regular exercise. I politely point out to staff that they are out stock on a few items, (this won’t help me but may help my fellow shoppers later in the week). I am friendly and polite to the staff and even get the check out girl to smile.

OK, extreme examples but the point is this. In our daily lives we are constantly acting as a cause of our karma and creating new karma through our interactions with other people and the environment.

Through a strong Buddhist practice we can start to change these behavioural patterns that we have created and so start to change our karma.

[jamesc2000]

This is a very interesting discussion.

In point form I would make the following comments:

• When it comes to Buddhism and spiritual growth, it's the doing (practice) that counts.

Buddhism and spiritual growth? I am not sure Buddhism is about spiritual growth!

I think Buddhism is about mindfulness and dont even know if Buddhists believe that they have a spirit or have thoughts of growing it!

Are you growing yours? If so, in what way?

One of my many personal bad habits is not being mindful about the words I choose.

This often leads to poor communication.

It's one of the many flaws in my character which I hope to correct through practice.

My ego and personality is quite flawed.

Having said that, I was loosely referring to reconnection with the infinite power which exists and which we are part of.

In our finite state we can't even begin to comprehend it, but our quest is to become reunited.

No words could ever be sufficient to describe it, although much inspiration exists attempting this.

Practice and actual experience is the way.

My reference to being spiritual is to describe my improved behavior through practice impacting on my actions and thoughts, and through enlightenment should this happen.

I am not an expert on Buddhism so if I am wrong please correct me.

To me one of the most beautiful things about Buddhism is that there is no belief in God. In some other religions there is a belief in God and he is the standard to live your life to.

As God is perfect and people are not and fall short of the standard they feel disappointed or dissatisfied and try harder to be perfect.

I don't think people will ever be perfect and not feeling good enough or meeting the standard can be a form of mental suffering.

I think its great that Buddhism does have this concept of being perfect or meeting the standard and feeling bad if you don't.

I think Buddhism is about less not more! Life is filled with too many objectives and targets and some Buddhists add more targets to meet!

I am working to be enlightened and then my real life starts! I am going on a 3 day retreat to meditate and then I will be enlightened and when that is done and dusted I can move on with my life!

Yesterday I was lost/a sinner/unenlightened, today I will change and be better/meditate/be baptised and tomorrow I will be enlightened/saved/go to heaven! (please cancel according to your religion!)

What about the here and now? Does life only begin when we are enlightened?

I am not even sure the concept of time exist in Buddhism. In the beginning there is nothing, then everything came about and one day it returns to nothing again?

Achieving targets seems to me like making the perfect sandcastle on the beach believing that it will be there for posterity only for the waves to come in and then there is no sandcastle left, not even a trace that it was once there!

Rockyysdt, I made one assumption that you are talking about and practising Buddhism, please correct me if I am wrong.

You wrote some interesting points - "My ego and personality is quite flawed.

Having said that, I was loosely referring to reconnection with the infinite power which exists and which we are part of.

In our finite state we can't even begin to comprehend it, but our quest is to become reunited."

If we come from nothing and one day become nothing again then I am not sure the ego and personality is really yours!

I am not sure what you mean by the infinite power and what it means to be reunited?

Do you practise meditation in order to be reunited with the infinite power?

And what happened when you are reunited? Do you become infinitely powerful too?