Jo Johnson quits UK government, urges referendum to avoid Brexit chaos

[AlexRich]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

"The UK does not have consensus on this matter, and given that it is the most significant issue of public policy in the last 50+ years, there needs to be some kind of consensus. The parties do not agree, the Parliament does not agree (there isn't even a one party majority government!). Business does not agree. Civil Society does not agree. The four countries that make up the UK do not agree. There needs to be consensus."

 

It is extremely unlikely that another referendum will result in consensus amongst the electorate!

 

The same divisions will still exist, and the divisions will probably become even more bad-tempered and divisive.

 

Another referendum would settle the matter with remainers. It would be a vote on the facts, not on the promises. And if people still want leave based on the facts in front of them that would be the end of the matter.

[joecoolfrog]

2 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

The problem with the referendum decision is that the extreme Brexiteer’s viewed it as a “winner takes all” situation, allowing them to force the hardest of Brexit down the throats of the UK populace, some 66 million. 17 million voted leave, for a variety of reasons. But what about the rest? The wisest approach would have been to find some common ground, respect the fact that many people did not want this, and went for a softer option. I think most would have got behind this. What surprises me about Jo Johnson is his surprise that we ended up here?

The Brexiters were wildly optimistic , they were never going to get what they were sold. Why do they think Farage buggered off so quickly , he has a lot to answer for.

In essence though we will end up with a soft Brexit , a veneer of increased sovereignty traded off by a few years economic pain.

You are correct though , surely there was an easier and less traumatic way to go.

[AlexRich]

3 minutes ago, joecoolfrog said:

The Brexiters were wildly optimistic , they were never going to get what they were sold. Why do they think Farage buggered off so quickly , he has a lot to answer for.

In essence though we will end up with a soft Brexit , a veneer of increased sovereignty traded off by a few years economic pain.

You are correct though , surely there was an easier and less traumatic way to go.

 

The Brexit extremists in the Tory party are a minority, who are trying to force everyone off a cliff into WTO terms. What they will end up with is a Corbyn Government and a decade or more in the political wilderness. It appears that in the UK if you vote to commit suicide everybody has to take part? This needs to go back to the voters if it cannot get through Parliament.

[joecoolfrog]

7 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Another referendum would settle the matter with remainers. It would be a vote on the facts, not on the promises. And if people still want leave based on the facts in front of them that would be the end of the matter.

I dont think it would lol.

A second referendum is utterly pointless in terms of making people happy , whatever the result it will piss off approximately half the population of the UK , same as now.

In political terms its an impossibility anyway , imagine if a second vote went remains way , do you think we could just pretend that Brexit was a ghastly mistake and expect everything to go back where it was.

The UK would be a laughing stock , with no influence whatsoever and the anti European sentiment would be gteater than ever , it would be never ending.

[dick dasterdly]

13 minutes ago, joecoolfrog said:

I voted remain , not because I agree with the EU federalist dream ( which is a grand illusion ) , simply because I feared the current mess.

The die is now cast though , there is no pulling back , we will leave the EU though frankly in name only.

I predicted immediately after the vote that very little would actually change , we would simply have wasted 5 years ( and more importantly I would have suffered from a weak Sterling rate for the duration).

Nothing I have seen persuades me I was wrong , we will end up with a fudged deal that will essentially satisfy nobody. There is no alternative though when the country is almost equally at odds with itself.

The blame game will go on but nobody comes out well , the EU dont forget have blood on their hands as well. The beaurocrats have rigidly stuck to an agenda and ignored the desires of millions of citizens ( not merely the British by any means).

Had Cameron been offered a few scraps of comfort , Brexit would not have happened , thats the truth of it.

 

Know what you mean, I decided not to vote for different reasons.

 

Namely, I trusted the brit.govt. even less than I trusted the eu govt.....

 

The brit. govt. has proven me correct in my assumptions so far (agreeing to the eu's order of 'negotiating' list - really??) - and the eu govt. has also reduced my already limited amount of 'trust'....

 

As you say, it looks likely that we will end up with "a fudged deal that will essentially satisfy nobody.".

 

We can only hope that the uk electorate show their displeasure at the next election.

 

The electorate of other eu countries are already showing their displeasure re. the eu, and yet so far - the eu has shown no serious attempt at self-reform.....

[joecoolfrog]

17 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

The Brexit extremists in the Tory party are a minority, who are trying to force everyone off a cliff into WTO terms. What they will end up with is a Corbyn Government and a decade or more in the political wilderness. It appears that in the UK if you vote to commit suicide everybody has to take part? This needs to go back to the voters if it cannot get through Parliament.

You are correct but Mrs May is resisting that element in her party and trying hard for a deal. What she needs is for Corbyn to support her but little chance of that. If there is no political concensus then another referendum doesn't help , it actually makes matters worse.

Edited November 10, 2018 by joecoolfrog

[joecoolfrog]

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Know what you mean, I decided not to vote for different reasons.

 

Namely, I trusted the brit.govt. even less than I trusted the eu govt.....

 

The brit. govt. has proven me correct in my assumptions so far (agreeing to the eu's order of 'negotiating' list - really??) - and the eu govt. has also reduced my already limited amount of 'trust'....

 

As you say, it looks likely that we will end up with "a fudged deal that will essentially satisfy nobody.".

 

We can only hope that the uk electorate show their displeasure at the next election.

 

The electorate of other eu countries are already showing their displeasure re. the eu, and yet so far - the eu has shown no serious attempt at self-reform.....

The EU will never reform , it is driven by rigid federalist ideology.

[dick dasterdly]

24 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

The problem with the referendum decision is that the extreme Brexiteer’s viewed it as a “winner takes all” situation, allowing them to force the hardest of Brexit down the throats of the UK populace, some 66 million. 17 million voted leave, for a variety of reasons. But what about the rest? The wisest approach would have been to find some common ground, respect the fact that many people did not want this, and went for a softer option. I think most would have got behind this. What surprises me about Jo Johnson is his surprise that we ended up here?

There is no "common ground", unless the eu reforms - and it has made it very clear that it has no intention of doing so.

 

A shame, as I initially hoped that the referendum result would result in genuine eu reform - and if that had happened, I would not only have supported another referendum, but expected most brits. to agree that the reformed eu was a good idea.

[dick dasterdly]

30 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Another referendum would settle the matter with remainers. It would be a vote on the facts, not on the promises. And if people still want leave based on the facts in front of them that would be the end of the matter.

There are no "facts" - only biased opinion.

[dick dasterdly]

18 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

The Brexit extremists in the Tory party are a minority, who are trying to force everyone off a cliff into WTO terms. What they will end up with is a Corbyn Government and a decade or more in the political wilderness. It appears that in the UK if you vote to commit suicide everybody has to take part? This needs to go back to the voters if it cannot get through Parliament.

"The Brexit extremists in the Tory party are a minority,"

 

More accurately, brexiters in the tory party (and the labour party) are a minority!

 

Which is why politicians are arguing about anything and everything....  They're still hoping that if they can delay and make things difficult enough, they can find a way around brexit....

[dunroaming]

10 hours ago, sammieuk1 said:

The sane sibling has spoken wise words on the petrol soaked bonfire that is Brexit ????

Johnson has come out and said publicly what everyone else is saying privately.  I don't think a second referendum would fly but a peoples vote on the result is gathering real momentum.  The Brexiteers in the house know that May will compromise away what they want from Brexit because it cannot be delivered and so they are beginning to see the advantages of a peoples vote too.

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, joecoolfrog said:

I dont think it would lol.

A second referendum is utterly pointless in terms of making people happy , whatever the result it will piss off approximately half the population of the UK , same as now.

In political terms its an impossibility anyway , imagine if a second vote went remains way , do you think we could just pretend that Brexit was a ghastly mistake and expect everything to go back where it was.

The UK would be a laughing stock , with no influence whatsoever and the anti European sentiment would be gteater than ever , it would be never ending.

 

I don't agree, and I don't believe that 33 million (half the population) want this. It would be a vote on facts, not promises. I don't even believe that the 17 million all want to go on WTO terms, pay a hefty fee to the EU, and deal with the chaos thereafter. The anti-EU demographic is dying out every year.

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

There are no "facts" - only biased opinion.

 

No longer an opinion ... you can have May's deal, no deal and WTO, or stay. A clear choice and one that is better understood by everyone.

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

There is no "common ground", unless the eu reforms - and it has made it very clear that it has no intention of doing so.

 

A shame, as I initially hoped that the referendum result would result in genuine eu reform - and if that had happened, I would not only have supported another referendum, but expected most brits. to agree that the reformed eu was a good idea.

 

The "common ground" I'm speaking of is between British remainers and British brexiters ... not the EU. There is little point in forcing a hard Brexit on everyone only to have it reversed within a decade, as the older demographic that voted for it dies out, and the young have to deal with the fall-out. Better to find a solution that remainers can live with.

Edited November 10, 2018 by AlexRich

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

There is no "common ground", unless the eu reforms - and it has made it very clear that it has no intention of doing so.

 

A shame, as I initially hoped that the referendum result would result in genuine eu reform - and if that had happened, I would not only have supported another referendum, but expected most brits. to agree that the reformed eu was a good idea.

I wouldn't be too sure Dick.  I think after Brexit there will be reforms.  A lot of the 27 are unhappy about the way things are going with the EU.  The last thing the EU can afford is another Brexit and that may sway them. 

[dick dasterdly]

19 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Johnson has come out and said publicly what everyone else is saying privately.  I don't think a second referendum would fly but a peoples vote on the result is gathering real momentum.  The Brexiteers in the house know that May will compromise away what they want from Brexit because it cannot be delivered and so they are beginning to see the advantages of a peoples vote too.

As long as the options are:-

1) Accept the deal

2) Leave immediately

 

As I've said frequently in previous posts - this would concentrate both uk and eu politicians minds wonderfully on coming up with the best deal for both sides!

[welovesundaysatspace]

5 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

As long as the options are:-

1) Accept the deal

2) Leave immediately

 

As I've said frequently in previous posts - this would concentrate both uk and eu politicians minds wonderfully on coming up with the best deal for both sides!

A 3rd option should be to remain. No doubts left then after the referendum. 

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, AlexRich said:

 

The "common ground" I'm speaking of is between British remainers and British brexiters ... not the EU. There is little point in forcing a hard Brexit on everyone only to have it reversed within a decade, as the older demographic that voted for it dies out, and the young have to deal with the fall-out. Better to find a solution that remainers can live with.

Ignoring the 'argument' that those who voted for brexit were old, and will die within a decade....  I have no problem at all with those who prefer to remain within the eu starting their own political party to fight for a referendum to return to the eu in the future.

 

There is no 'common ground'.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, welovesundaysatspace said:

A 3rd option should be to remain. No doubts left then after the referendum. 

Why are we still going round in circles?

 

It's been pointed out time and time again that this gives every reason for the brit. and eu govt. to come up with a very bad deal - as both the brit. and eu politicians would prefer that we remain within the eu!

 

Plus, even if the worst possible deal was offered to the electorate - the vote would still likely be split fairly evenly between 'leave immediately' and remain.  Still no consensus, so even more acrimony between the different sides!

[nausea]

It's usually not a good idea to make serious decisions when you're drunk with emotion, you make them the morning after in the cold, hard light of a sober morning. Now is the morning after.

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Ignoring the 'argument' that those who voted for brexit were old, and will die within a decade....  I have no problem at all with those who prefer to remain within the eu starting their own political party to fight for a referendum to return to the eu in the future.

 

There is no 'common ground'.

There is no common ground with “extreme Brexiteers”, but they don’t represent all of the 17 million ... and that failure may well lead to their worst nightmare, a second vote. And a reversal. Oh how we laughed!

[AlexRich]

59 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Why are we still going round in circles?

 

It's been pointed out time and time again that this gives every reason for the brit. and eu govt. to come up with a very bad deal - as both the brit. and eu politicians would prefer that we remain within the eu!

 

Plus, even if the worst possible deal was offered to the electorate - the vote would still likely be split fairly evenly between 'leave immediately' and remain.  Still no consensus, so even more acrimony between the different sides!

That’s where you are wrong, 17m did not vote for leave whatever the cost. But if you truly believe that they did a people’s vote should hold no fear for you.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

As long as the options are:-

1) Accept the deal

2) Leave immediately

 

As I've said frequently in previous posts - this would concentrate both uk and eu politicians minds wonderfully on coming up with the best deal for both sides!

Most people now want neither.

[Jip99]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

Most people now want neither.

 

I didn’t realize that you knew so many people.

[vogie]

9 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Most people now want neither.

Now m'Lud, this next case is grouse vs democracy.

[dunroaming]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

As long as the options are:-

1) Accept the deal

2) Leave immediately

 

As I've said frequently in previous posts - this would concentrate both uk and eu politicians minds wonderfully on coming up with the best deal for both sides!

I would go along with that as long as there was a soft Brexit with a customs union of some sort is one option.  The other would then be no deal.  We all know the soft option would win hands down but at least Brexit would be achieved.  No winners I know but that is where we are.