Buddhist Forum

[Yohan]

My point exactly! If you live in Thailand, married to a local you are going to encounter Buddhist Monks at some point in your life. You should be familiar with the customs

If you are no Thai and not a Buddhist, why should you be familiar with it?

and

If you are a Thai and a Buddhist and you have to travel to South Thailand, where over 80 percent are Moslems, should you be familiar with Islam.....?

and

If a Thai Moslem is visiting Bangkok, should he be familiar with Buddhism, because he is a Thai citizen?

For a Buddhist, a Buddhist monk is a very special person, but for a non-Buddhist, a Buddhist monk is nothing else than any other person....nothing special with him, nothing to consider about him....

Or do you want to explain me, that Buddhist monks are something special for the non-Buddhists...???

Johann

[Boon Mee]

You want to stay ignorant about Buddists/Thailand/Monks it's no sweat to me but look at the poll. >65% of us would like to see one...

[snowleopard]

Good point, Johann.

But better explained by you, I have to say.

I do not think it's a good idea to open a can of worms,...

QUOTE (sonthaya @ Sun 2004-05-23, 20:27:47)

Yes, let's learn more about Buddishm, the only non violent faith I can think of........

I really like Buddhism but I'm not a Buddhist in the religious sense of the word!

A lot in the Buddhist philosophy is very insightful and I respect its wisdom a lot!

I would argue that Siddhartha Gautama (Sakyamuni Buddha) didn't want his philosophy to to become a religion!

These are the Buddha's last words when he lay down to die at Kuchinagara some 2500 years ago!

He said to his followers:

"I remind you that all things are impermanent-I advise you to take refuge in yourselves and the Dharma,the teachings...Do you have any questions?"

Nobody had any questions.Everybody was silent!

So the Buddha continued. . .

"Everything that is born is subject to decay.Since there is no external saviour,

it's up to each of you to work out your own liberation...These are my last words."

Then he passed away.

A lot of Buddhists and others see Buddhism as a religion;but the Buddha probably didn't intend so himself!

In my interpretation,I think the tolerant Therawada Buddhism is the closest a religion can come to Atheism!

I think that non-religion and non-attachment,without any brain-washing with the supernatural in order to be coerced into conforming to the superstitious mambo-jambo of one's community,is the real key to happiness!

I think having a discussion about Buddhism is great!

Buddhists are tolerant and don't attempt proselytization into their religion like adherents of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition always try to do!

I'm an Atheist and Evolutionist in addition to being a happy Heretic!

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

[Yohan]

You want to stay ignorant about Buddists/Thailand/Monks it's no sweat to me but look at the poll. >65% of us would like to see one...

This is ok, I am not against it....more the opposite....

The problem is however, that you did not expect to read also negative views about Buddhism...

You should expect some inconvenient questioning, and you should not expect, that some long sutras will be accepted as a valid reply.

I am still waiting for a reply from a Buddhist about my last posting:

I am asking you, in a short form again:

I think, history can be called somewhat a mirror....

There were cruel wars of aggression by Thai Buddhists in the past.

Everybody who was not a Thai Buddhist, was tortured and killed - in a way of terror and atrocity, unknown by Christians and Moslems...

The ones, who survived, were kept as slaves....

Slavery in Thailand was abolished 1905..... not such a long time ago....

And this should make - using your own words - the others happy?

Comparing the history, I do not think, the Buddhists are the better ones....

Any comment?

Johann

[Boon Mee]

I get your drift now. Yes, there are some "unsavory" aspects to Buddhism and in Thailand it sometimes takes the form of "Kumon Tong". This is where a Monk took the feteus of twin boys from a mothers womb and basically started a cult. Too large a subject to get into here but the belief still exists to this day.

Anyhow, a specific thread focused on Buddhism in Thailand would be educational for all Farang.

[Snark]

deleted

[dr_Pat_Pong]

And even if talking (posting on this forum) about it DOES offend some people, there will always be someone else to correct the offensive views that are put, allowing all readers to learn.

Unfortunately, offence leads to MORE offence.

As much as you do not like it and I don't, this is the way it is.

And very often leads to "destructive" postings,...

Bluecat ... stay out of the topic then there's no grief for you whatsoever. Some people would at least like know something of the basics of Buddhism.

[Snark]

deleted

[Snark]

deleted

[NaiGreg]

As a [non-Thai] buddhist, I submit to our thaivisa community - this may not be an appropriate place for a forum on Thai Buddhism (too many cranky people), but the *path* to Enlightenment can start here or anywhere, at any age. You *can* have fun (not a sin) along the path!

Chok-dee-na

Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: it transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural & spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity"

---- Albert Einstein

[ThaiPauly]

I am all for it and beleive those against it should not track the postings and get on with posting other material, if we want to air our PERSONAL opinions for that is what they are as long as everyone understands that they are just that then what harm can it do?

I for one would welcome balanced information on the subject and make of it what I will, I have nothing to contribute yeat as I am a relative newcomer to LOS, but my GF is very religious and I have learned off by heart the basic "Homage to the exalted one, perfectlt enlightened by himself" in pali, so please carry on. I want to knoe more

[pnustedt]

I wish someone would teach me how to sit with my legs tucked under me for hours on end.

I frequently go to the Wat to worship with my wife, but I try to hide at the back unobtrusively. However, I am invariably hauled to the front of the congregation and there I am, in full view. I can only hold the position for about 15 minutes and then I have to put my feet out in front - facing the monks.

After the ceremony I always apologise and everyone laughs at me in good spirit!

[Yohan]

I get your drift now.  Yes, there are some "unsavory" aspects to Buddhism .............

Yes, ok, this reply from you makes some sense to me.

My observation, simply said, is, that religion does not really make the humans better, and Buddhism is not an exception....

There is no indication in all history, that Buddhism made any positive influence to their believers in respecting what we call *life*....the life of others, who are beneath you, the life of others, who are depending on you....

In history we know about severe aggression and extreme cruelty of Buddhists, especially how they were treating people, who were their slaves, their victims or prisoners of war....

This is not only reported about the Thais, but similar also about the Japanese, who are Buddhist orientated.

Nowadays we see the strong influence of money, we see, how much selfish and materialistic orientated Buddhist people sometimes are. This is also a form of aggression.

We see no difference in using drugs, criminal offences, misuse of alcohol, mistreatment of other lives....against humans as well as against animals....

There is no equality in Buddhism, not the same chance for everybody, and man and woman are not considered to enter Buddhist studies in the same way........

At least there is nothing known, which makes Buddhists significant different - neither worse nor better - from all the others, who are followers of different religions.......

For me Buddhism is nothing special, just a religion like any other religion else...

Johann

[Snark]

[pnustedt]

Your apology is most likely completely misunderstood. Many must think you are apologizing for your presence which is the only meaningful thing.

No it isn't. It is completely understood. How can you make such a presumption when you know nothing of the circumstances?

Lighten up!

[p1p]

I agree with the Snark's comments above. However, back to the subject of this pole:

I voted "No" to a forum based solely on Buddhism. I feel that a forum on General Religion and Life Philosophy would be far more valuable. A Buddhusm forum would be far too limited.

I have studies Christianity in some depth and even went so far as to investigate taking up the cloth. I have also studied other religions and was ordained in the Therevada Buddhist Sangkha for some time.

I firmly believe nobody can understand themselves or their own beliefs and feelings without some understanding of the teachings of all religions.

[Snark]

deleted

[pnustedt]

deleted

Something strange here - of the 176 posts by Snark only 23 have any contents, the others just say "deleted". Is some help needed?

[Darknight]

strange , to post something and then delete it ? or just post the word deleted ???

Added

by the way , i'm for the religion, philosophy forum option

[RDN]

First I would like to see a dedicated forum for Buddhism Q&A,

We have 14 different topics in the general area. There is room for the Buddha in here.

Directly or indirectly Buddhism IS going to have an influence on your future if you plan to spend any length of time in LoS.

We all have questions, give us the room to express and discuss our views in a Buddhist / Farang Forum.

Up to you!

Have a Happy...

DeDanan

I answered "Yes" to the poll because I read the very first post by DeDanan which stated quite simply: "I would like to see a dedicated forum for Buddhism Q&A".

So, "Yes" I would like a forum where people can ask questions about Buddhism.

BUT, the POLL question was: "Do we want a 'Buddhist View' forum?".

I am not sure what this means and because the poll question is different from DeDanan's first sentence, maybe people are talking at cross purposes.

I certainly would like a forum on Buddhism where I can ask dumb questions like:

"Why is it not polite to point your feet at a monk"

"Why are feet regarded as 'dirty' by buddhists"

"Why take off your shoes and put your dirty feet in direct contact with somebody's nice clean floor"

etc, etc.

I would love a place to ask these questions - my g/f gets bored pretty damm quick when I ask her!

If the poll question means "Do we want Buddhists to give their views about stuff" then, again, I would say "Yes", because I would like to get a Buddhists point of view on things that farangs talk about, but really, I hope the forum is so we can ask dumb questions about Buddhism. Sorry to ramble on....

[Pepe']

Good point, Johann.

But better explained by you, I have to say.

I do not think it's a good idea to open a can of worms,...

QUOTE (sonthaya @ Sun 2004-05-23, 20:27:47)

Yes, let's learn more about Buddishm, the only non violent faith I can think of........

I really like Buddhism but I'm not a Buddhist in the religious sense of the word!

A lot in the Buddhist philosophy is very insightful and I respect its wisdom a lot!

I would argue that Siddhartha Gautama (Sakyamuni Buddha) didn't want his philosophy to to become a religion!

These are the Buddha's last words when he lay down to die at Kuchinagara some 2500 years ago!

He said to his followers:

"I remind you that all things are impermanent-I advise you to take refuge in yourselves and the Dharma,the teachings...Do you have any questions?"

Nobody had any questions.Everybody was silent!

So the Buddha continued. . .

"Everything that is born is subject to decay.Since there is no external saviour,

it's up to each of you to work out your own liberation...These are my last words."

Then he passed away.

A lot of Buddhists and others see Buddhism as a religion;but the Buddha probably didn't intend so himself!

In my interpretation,I think the tolerant Therawada Buddhism is the closest a religion can come to Atheism!

I think that non-religion and non-attachment,without any brain-washing with the supernatural in order to be coerced into conforming to the superstitious mambo-jambo of one's community,is the real key to happiness!

I think having a discussion about Buddhism is great!

Buddhists are tolerant and don't attempt proselytization into their religion like adherents of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition always try to do!

I'm an Atheist and Evolutionist in addition to being a happy Heretic!

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

snowleaperd,

Thanks for these nice quotes of The Buddha's last words. It's a nice reminder of where we stand in the midst of all the recent pontificating.

Do you have some other quotes?

Keep em comming

[Pepe']

Snark,

Also some of your best imput to date. Appreciate more of the same.

[DeDanan]

Any thoughts from the system administrators on this subject?

Is a new forum section a possibility?

Having read the posts I think a wider definition of the forum than originally suggested is a better option.

The majority of the posts are in favour of some form of forum on this topic.

UP TO YOU!

Have a Happy...

DeDanan

[Snark]

To compete with others ultimately only serves the ego. To say something which elicits a refute is as much an error as to refute another: you offer nothing other than an attempt to sway a person to your own thinking.

Productive thought is to quietly speak your own wisdoms, prepared to withdraw them should they serve to create strife. For in creating that strife, the one who has spoken first is as much in error as those who rebut and refute.

Why is this? They were spoken not to serve as an arguement but only to give information. True. They may appear to serve that original purpose, but what then? To place value on them is an error for they are only words. They served only to create strife. Was that the reason why they were spoken?

While an arguemt may serve a purpose, as each expresses a different view, is it not far more productive for each person to quietly express their own unique view? The discourse then becomes a presentation for each person to make his own comparison.

A person goes to school. He competes at sports. He competes in the classroom. He may win great fame and notoriety. But until he learns his own wisdoms and expresses them, he will forever remain at that school. The dissertation, the thesis, will be rejected automatically as long as it only bears arguements, rebuttals of others works and efforts.

Should someone wish to refute what I state here, it too will be deleted. I will bow to the wisdoms of others. I have spoken my peace, and have moved on. There are more than enough arguements in the world without my contributing.

Should there be a forum on Buddhism? Will this create strife and dissention as each seeks to ague his own viewpoint?

[DeDanan]

[QUOTE=Snark,Mon 2004-05-24, 23:52:57]To compete with others ultimately only serves the ego. To say something which elicits a refute is as much an error as to refute another: you offer nothing other than an attempt to sway a person to your own thinking.

Productive thought is to quietly speak your own wisdoms, prepared to withdraw them should they serve to create strife. For in creating that strife, the one who has spoken first is as much in error as those who rebut and refute.

Why is this? They were spoken not to serve as an arguement but only to give information. True. They may appear to serve that original purpose, but what then? To place value on them is an error for they are only words. They served only to create strife. Was that the reason why they were spoken?

While an arguemt may serve a purpose, as each expresses a different view, is it not far more productive for each person to quietly express their own unique view? The discourse then becomes a presentation for each person to make his own comparison.

A person goes to school. He competes at sports. He competes in the classroom. He may win great fame and notoriety. But until he learns his own wisdoms and expresses them, he will forever remain at that school. The dissertation, the thesis, will be rejected automatically as long as it only bears arguements, rebuttals of others works and efforts.

Should someone wish to refute what I state here, it too will be deleted. I will bow to the wisdoms of others. I have spoken my peace, and have moved on. There are more than enough arguements in the world without my contributing.

Should there be a forum on Buddhism? Will this create strife and dissention as each seeks to ague his own viewpoint?[/QUOTE]

Sorry Stark i had to "Quote" you before you delete it. I do like some of what you say BUT want to suggest a different view about the forum

Will this create strife and dissention as each seeks to ague his own viewpoint?

OR

Will this create understanding as we learn from the viewpoints of others?

Probably Both !

DeDanan

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Any thoughts from the system administrators on this subject?

Is a new forum section a possibility?

Having read the posts I think a wider definition of the forum than originally suggested is a better option.

The majority of the posts are in favour of some form of forum on this topic.

UP TO YOU!

Have a Happy...

DeDanan

I'll talk to George about it.

[Snark]

May the Bluebird of Happiness generously crap all over your birthday cake, DeDanan.

One point of contention. The origin of the word religion appears to be from the latin religio which appears to bear the basic connotation, god fearing or similar.

This sets Buddhism far apart from all other *religions*. (Unless, for some obscure reason, one has reason to fear the Goddess of mercy and compassion).

It seems to me that many people are approaching this topic, Buddhism et al, as a discussion of a *religion*. We already have Uncle Albert E.'s quote, and a boat load of other definitions that will readily refute this. Perhaps the Buddha's own words would be the most appropriate where he sternly stated there was nothing of a 'religious' nature in any aspect of what he taught.

So, I propose, before the bashing begins and mind boggling revelations start oozing from our monitors and mess up our carpets, a simple something. Essentially, the epitome of we, us, who are about to discuss, in relationship to Buddha and Buddhism, and life, the universe, and everything.

"' I find that the sensation of myself as an ego inside a bag of skin is really a hallucination. What we really are is, first of all, the whole of our body. And although our bodies are bounded with skin, and we can differentiate between outside and inside, they cannot exist except in a certain kind of natural environment. Obviously a body requires air, and the air must within a certain temperature range. The body also requires certain kinds of nutrition. So in order to occur the body must be on a mild and nutriative planet with just enough oxygen in the atmosphere spinning regularly around in a harmonious and rythmical way near a certain kind of warm star.

That arrangement is just as essential to the existence of my body as my heart, my lungs, and my brain. So to describe myself in a scientific way, I must also describe my surroundings, which is a clumsy way getting around to the realization that you are the entire universe. However we do not normally feel that way because we have constructed in thought an abstract idea of our self. " - Alan Watts -

[stroll]

I am glad I read your comments before deletion, Snark, I find them very inspiring.

If contoversy is a reason not to speak/post, then there would be very few postings on this forum indeed.

I like to encourage you to let your words stand and let those who appreciate them benefit from your posts.

[p1p]

They hunted till darkness came on, but they found

Not a button, or feather, or mark,

By which they could tell that they stood on the ground

Where the Baker had met with the Snark.

In the midst of the word he was trying to say,

In the midst of his laughter and glee,

He had softly and suddenly vanished away---

For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see.

I can't help that we owe Mr. Charlie Lutwidge Dodgson a vote of thanks for allowing the Snark to evade his hunters and offer his true pearls of wisdom to this forum. (Is that sufficiently sycopantic to ensure deletion of posts above does not occur?)

Seriously though, the points he makes are highly valid. Buddhism is best described as a way of conducting oneself in life, it is not a religion.

All religions have, as a central tenet, the belief in some form of supranormal, oft'omnipotent being or beings.

Buddhism neither confirms nor denies such beliefs but bases the best part of the teaching on the simple, provable concept of cause and effect. Often referred to as Karma. To simplify things to an extreme, one could state that all sentinent beings are Buddhist, simply because their sentience allows them to understand the basic, cause and effect, tenet of the Buddha's teachings.

[RDN]

Buddhism is best described as a way of conducting oneself in life, it is not a religion. All religions have, as a central tenet, the belief in some form of supranormal, oft'omnipotent being or beings.

Buddhism neither confirms nor denies such beliefs but bases the best part of the teaching on the simple, provable concept of cause and effect. Often referred to as Karma.

These are the Buddha's last words when he lay down to die at Kuchinagara some 2500 years ago!

He said to his followers:

"I remind you that all things are impermanent-I advise you to take refuge in yourselves and the Dharma,the teachings...Do you have any questions?"

Nobody had any questions.Everybody was silent!

So the Buddha continued. . .

"Everything that is born is subject to decay.Since there is no external saviour,

it's up to each of you to work out your own liberation...These are my last words."

Then he passed away.

A lot of Buddhists and others see Buddhism as a religion;but the Buddha probably didn't intend so himself!

In my interpretation,I think the tolerant Therawada Buddhism is the closest a religion can come to Atheism!

Isn't this exactly why we need a forum? These little gems from knowledgable people clarify and put into perspective the snippets of information that we - the unknowledgable - hear from time to time.

This website has forums on visas, residency, jobs, computers, news, jokes, hotels, health and sport. Surely we can add "Buddhism". And the current thread on being a Buddhist monk would then be in this new forum.

I would also like to see one on the Thai language, as the thread (also currently in the General Topics forum) entitled "Origin Of Na In Na Ayutthaya" is fascinating and makes me think very seriously about going back to Thai language school.