bull farm

[jvs]

Op,a lot of ideas being floated your way.

how much experience do you have really?Have you aver run a herd for a year straight?

Do you know about diseases and how to spot them?

I agree with another poster who is saying you need water!Very important.

Second is grass,also important but just grass will keep your cows alive and will not fatten them!!!

You will need to get another cheap product to be able to feed them so they actually gain weight and not just put on a frame.

I know around here they are using left over material from the pine apple plants.

I you need to buy concentrates to feed them you will never make any money.

Just start with buying one beef bull and see how that goes.

If you have to rely more on grass maybe it would be better to have a cow/calf farm.

Are there places near you to have the bulls butchered?

Over time transport costs can make a huge difference in you r operation.

Here is a scenario that could happen very easily,bull s are growing very well and prices are good.

You already spent a lot of time and money on the farm operation but you can already see you will be making some money!!Great!!

You have to leave for a few days and the family is ready to take the test,they have to look after them while you are away.

You come back after a week and can see right away the bulls are looking skinny and very hungry.

You ask'what happened?Answer,'oh we ran out of concentrate and were just waiting for you to come back'

No big deal to them but you just lost all of your profit and you lost confidence in the family.Sounds far off?It happens !

 

[Michael Hare]

I agree with everything Kickstart says. Instead of mungbeans for green manure, you might consider sowing Sunn hemp (Crotalaria juncea). Rapid growing. We have plenty of seed for sale. 

 

With the cattle try to get the Thai Brahman crossbred or even the pure Thai native cattle. Some years ago, 1999-2003, we conducted a four year field research on comparing the productivity of Brahman vs Thai native cows grazing pastures. We could graze two native cows on the same area of pasture as one Brahman cow. There were 24 head in the Thai native herd and 12 head in the Brahman herd. 

 

The native cows over 4 years averaged 84.7% calving while the Brahmans only averaged 50% calving. The average weaning weight from the same area of land was 2,012 kg for the native herd and only 858 kg from the Brahman herd. 

 

You get more meat per unit area of land from small native cattle. 

[Kallemann]

6 hours ago, Michael Hare said:

If you are going to plant Mulato II and Ubon stylo after rice harvest in November then you need to consider the following:

 

1 Will the rice land flood every year from July to September-October? If it does, the Mulato II and Ubon stylo will die. if this land is the only land available, then you will either have to raise the land up or find out a way to drain the land.

 

2 Planting in November will mean you have to water the fields constantly until the next wet season in May. Will you have a supply of six months water?

 

3 Planting in November means the young seedlings will be growing in the cool season. At this time, even with a constant supply of water, growth will be very slow.

 

4 Where will you buy the seed from? My company, Ubon Forage Seeds, is the only producer of these seeds in Thailand (and Asia). Either you will buy from me or through a middleman. By November, we will be sold out of Ubon Stylo seed, but there will be still Mulato II seed in stock. New season Ubon stylo will come in March next year. 

 

5 if I was you, I would plan and prepare the areas to be planted in pasture over the dry season and then sow the seeds in May next year. 

 

Lots to think about. Don't rush in. By the way, I named this stylo Ubon stylo about 25 years ago. Someone above mentioned buffalo grass. It does not grow in Thailand. 

Ok. Thanks for good advices. 

I see @kickstart advice to make mung beans for getting soil better. I think thats a good idea too.

But what species grass, will be the best to plant for me? 

I think will buy seeds from you, because u know my intention about this, and we can speak together in english, so i think if u are my dealer, i will be a good option for me.

[bwpage3]

5 hours ago, Kallemann said:

Ok. Thanks for good advices. 

I see @kickstart advice to make mung beans for getting soil better. I think thats a good idea too.

But what species grass, will be the best to plant for me? 

I think will buy seeds from you, because u know my intention about this, and we can speak together in english, so i think if u are my dealer, i will be a good option for me.

Before you even think about buying seeds, you have to understand if your land floods in the rainy season or not?

 

Have you ever stayed in Thailand in the monsoon season?

 

 

[kickstart]

6 hours ago, Michael Hare said:

I agree with everything Kickstart says. Instead of mungbeans for green manure, you might consider sowing Sunn hemp (Crotalaria juncea). Rapid growing. We have plenty of seed for sale. 

 

With the cattle try to get the Thai Brahman crossbred or even the pure Thai native cattle. Some years ago, 1999-2003, we conducted a four year field research on comparing the productivity of Brahman vs Thai native cows grazing pastures. We could graze two native cows on the same area of pasture as one Brahman cow. There were 24 head in the Thai native herd and 12 head in the Brahman herd. 

 

The native cows over 4 years averaged 84.7% calving while the Brahmans only averaged 50% calving. The average weaning weight from the same area of land was 2,012 kg for the native herd and only 858 kg from the Brahman herd. 

 

You get more meat per unit area of land from small native cattle. 

Interesting research you did ,I am not surprised at the results ,the Native cows are very underrated ,we have put an Angus bull on our Thai Native,got a bull calf ,we sold him at about 13-15 months old ,he made more money than a previous Brahman bull from her.

I would say you in Issan would have more chances of finding some Thai Native cattle than me in Lopburi ,not easy to find around here.

A lot goes back about  15 years when the Indo Brazil breed was popular especially one bull Boy Ubon owned by an Thai MP semen from him sold for 7-900 baht straw ,then all farmers wanted some Indo semen including would you believe dairy farmers and a lot of the Thai Native and Thai Native  crosses where put to Indo bulls and you still see the results  now a lot of these thin bags of bones things are  Indo crosses are  not a lot of use for anything, they do not graze well,a more intensive breed and have just about ruined a generation of beef breeding , in Thailand and at last a  lot of farmers are now realizing, Thai Native X Brahman are a lot better breed than the long eared things.

I said use Mung Beans as a green manure, I thought the seed would be more available than Sun Hemp ,did not realize your company sold Sun Hemp seed.  

[Kallemann]

2 hours ago, bwpage3 said:

Before you even think about buying seeds, you have to understand if your land floods in the rainy season or not?

 

Have you ever stayed in Thailand in the monsoon season?

 

 

Yes. 

It does not flood where i think to plant grass. And now there are some barriers on those field, and i will remove them too, just for make sure it will drain.

[Michael Hare]

11 hours ago, kickstart said:

Interesting research you did ,I am not surprised at the results ,the Native cows are very underrated ,we have put an Angus bull on our Thai Native,got a bull calf ,we sold him at about 13-15 months old ,he made more money than a previous Brahman bull from her.

I would say you in Issan would have more chances of finding some Thai Native cattle than me in Lopburi ,not easy to find around here.

A lot goes back about  15 years when the Indo Brazil breed was popular especially one bull Boy Ubon owned by an Thai MP semen from him sold for 7-900 baht straw ,then all farmers wanted some Indo semen including would you believe dairy farmers and a lot of the Thai Native and Thai Native  crosses where put to Indo bulls and you still see the results  now a lot of these thin bags of bones things are  Indo crosses are  not a lot of use for anything, they do not graze well,a more intensive breed and have just about ruined a generation of beef breeding , in Thailand and at last a  lot of farmers are now realizing, Thai Native X Brahman are a lot better breed than the long eared things.

I said use Mung Beans as a green manure, I thought the seed would be more available than Sun Hemp ,did not realize your company sold Sun Hemp seed.  

The research was done at the Buntharik Livestock station. There they run three herds of Thai native cattle that have the regional colour differences. Light yellow, red brown and dark grey black. Thee is also a northern line (Lamphun) which is white with pink orange colourations on the horns, hooves, anus and around the eyes. You can see the clour differences in some of these photos.

https://www.dreamstime.com/photos-images/thai-native-breed-cow.html

I know all about that Boy Ubon bull. Dead now.

 

A few years, one of the lecturers at Ubon university starting crossing the native cattle with lowline angus from Australia. https://www.dreamstime.com/photos-images/thai-native-breed-cow.html

Project went well but there were some fertility problems when they tried to get their own semen. 

 

Sunn hemp. We have been exporting seed to the USA and Spain for a number of years. Call it Crescent Sunn. We have to have 99.5%++ purity with absolutely no weed seeds at all and over 90% purity. Most of the sunn hemp seed produced in Thailand is riddled with weed seeds.

 

 

 

[Grumpy John]

The best rule in Thailand is don't invest anyMore than you are prepared to walk away from.  All maybe well with you and your wife now...but things can change.  Like the land in question....who actually owns it?  If it is Nor Sor 4 who has their name on the title. It could be there is no title and the land was given to the family at the kings pleasure. There is a lot of land given by the King. Be certain whose land you are building on.  With the family: They may not ask you for money, but they will expect you to give it! And you have to be prepared to give it!  Best to say as I did from the get go "I'll look after Por and Mar and you kid...but once the kid turns 18 that's it for me. "  Por died and the kid (a girl) married a deadbeat bum at 20.  Separated at 22 with a kid of her own.  CAme back home,  after 4 months didn't have a job, sat on her fat Rs and did nothing to help...so I got in her face and said....basically leave and get a job...which she did.   Mar was horrified I made the kid cry.   Telling you this because things change.  New situation, the wife's deadbeat brother and his old granny wife and her kid turn up.  Remember this Rsole had only ever turned up to borrow money.  First born,  a son is in chess terms the King and my wife is considered a pawn.  So, deadbeat brother since returning has borrowed money,  is using some of my wife's land to grow cucumbers, she did say OK,  my wife's back pack sprayer plus other things.  Nothing of mine except a hammer.  I doubt if anyone will see any return soon!   So Second rule: Expect the unexpected! 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Grumpy John
Smelling

[AndyAndyAndy]

11 hours ago, Kallemann said:

Yes. 

It does not flood where i think to plant grass. And now there are some barriers on those field, and i will remove them too, just for make sure it will drain.

You can't work in Thailand, you have tourist or non-o visa, right? You can't feed them, you can't work around them. So you should get used to  "i will pay somebody to remove them while I watch". If not, sooner or later somebody will report you.

 

I really think this whole idea is crazy. You are in no position to start a business. You can't speak language, you can't work, you can't own a land.... . Even person speaking language, owning land and being able to put his work in for free would have 50/50 chance of succeeding. Where are your chances?

[colinneil]

On 6/22/2020 at 4:00 PM, Kallemann said:

Hi GRUMPY one.
they are really not interested in my money...

Please take off your rose tinted glasses, they are not interested in your money, utter BS.

like most people here they will sit back and wait until you have sunk a lot of money into your project.

Then BANG your out on your a++e, do not even try and tell me i am wrong, many thousands of farangs have had similar done to them, me included.

Built a home, bought a car, then after 8 years together, i was left with nothing.

[Michael Hare]

Mr Kallemann, ignore those comments above. If you want to do it, then do it. I came to Thailand when I was in my twenties. I am now 70. At that time many of my western friends married Thai ladies. All about the same age-mid to late 20s. Not one single couple has ever divorced or been ripped off. Except for the odd death (includes my first wife), all couples are still together. Some have built up businesses here or in their respective western countries or have been professionals. 

[kickstart]

2 hours ago, Michael Hare said:

The research was done at the Buntharik Livestock station. There they run three herds of Thai native cattle that have the regional colour differences. Light yellow, red brown and dark grey black. Thee is also a northern line (Lamphun) which is white with pink orange colourations on the horns, hooves, anus and around the eyes. You can see the clour differences in some of these photos.

https://www.dreamstime.com/photos-images/thai-native-breed-cow.html

I know all about that Boy Ubon bull. Dead now.

 

A few years, one of the lecturers at Ubon university starting crossing the native cattle with lowline angus from Australia. https://www.dreamstime.com/photos-images/thai-native-breed-cow.html

Project went well but there were some fertility problems when they tried to get their own semen. 

 

Sunn hemp. We have been exporting seed to the USA and Spain for a number of years. Call it Crescent Sunn. We have to have 99.5%++ purity with absolutely no weed seeds at all and over 90% purity. Most of the sunn hemp seed produced in Thailand is riddled with weed seeds.

 

 

 

 I know Boy Ubon is dead ,he even made Thai Raith newspaper ,some say they collected semen to often, from him .

Khow Lamphun I know the breed well we had one cow, she did well .I wanted some semen to carry on the bloodline ,but I could not find any , around here, and she had a fertility problem and had to go .

In my last photos my Thai Native's cow's  last calf ,as I said takes after her mum ,I was thinking of putting her to a Low Line Angus bull ,got to find some semen ,will try Porntip semen sellers in Ratchaburi, or some of the Thai farming magazines,unless you know of a farm that sells Low Line semen.    

[kickstart]

2 hours ago, AndyAndyAndy said:

You can't work in Thailand, you have tourist or non-o visa, right? You can't feed them, you can't work around them. So you should get used to  "i will pay somebody to remove them while I watch". If not, sooner or later somebody will report you.

 

I really think this whole idea is crazy. You are in no position to start a business. You can't speak language, you can't work, you can't own a land.... . Even person speaking language, owning land and being able to put his work in for free would have 50/50 chance of succeeding. Where are your chances?

If you might have noticed this is a farming forum ,and a lot of farangs do farm in Thailand without any problems.I have been doing it for 10 years plus ,along with my wife , by the way without her I would be >deleted<.

I have said before ,keep yourself to yourself ,lean to speak some Thai ,and help your neighbors out ,a while ago I helped a neighbor out calving  one of his cow's , one evening, he was well pleased and still tells be about it .

So,...................time to change bar stools .

And read Michael's  last post. 

 

[JWRC]

If your growing beef for the meat market, you should be looking at steers, not bulls, I can't help thinking you don't know much about this. Save your money, the way beef prices go up and down here you never know if you are going to get a return or not, secondly you will sink more money into this than you will make, thirdly don't get into a business with family, fourth don't expect than other people will run it to your requirements while you are away, it won't happen. I could keep going, but most people on here have already cautioned you as to what will probably happen.

[Michael Hare]

39 minutes ago, kickstart said:

 I know Boy Ubon is dead ,he even made Thai Raith newspaper ,some say they collected semen to often, from him .

Khow Lamphun I know the breed well we had one cow, she did well .I wanted some semen to carry on the bloodline ,but I could not find any , around here, and she had a fertility problem and had to go .

In my last photos my Thai Native's cow's  last calf ,as I said takes after her mum ,I was thinking of putting her to a Low Line Angus bull ,got to find some semen ,will try Porntip semen sellers in Ratchaburi, or some of the Thai farming magazines,unless you know of a farm that sells Low Line semen.    

Sorry Kickstart, I can not help you with Lowline Angus semen. Maybe the Depart of Livestock Development may have some, but I doubt it. 

[bwpage3]

8 hours ago, Grumpy John said:

The best rule in Thailand is don't invest anyMore than you are prepared to walk away from.  All maybe well with you and your wife now...but things can change.  Like the land in question....who actually owns it?  If it is Nor Sor 4 who has their name on the title. It could be there is no title and the land was given to the family at the kings pleasure. There is a lot of land given by the King. Be certain whose land you are building on.  With the family: They may not ask you for money, but they will expect you to give it! And you have to be prepared to give it!  Best to say as I did from the get go "I'll look after Por and Mar and you kid...but once the kid turns 18 that's it for me. "  Por died and the kid (a girl) married a deadbeat bum at 20.  Separated at 22 with a kid of her own.  CAme back home,  after 4 months didn't have a job, sat on her fat Rs and did nothing to help...so I got in her face and said....basically leave and get a job...which she did.   Mar was horrified I made the kid cry.   Telling you this because things change.  New situation, the wife's deadbeat brother and his old granny wife and her kid turn up.  Remember this Rsole had only ever turned up to borrow money.  First born,  a son is in chess terms the King and my wife is considered a pawn.  So, deadbeat brother since returning has borrowed money,  is using some of my wife's land to grow cucumbers, she did say OK,  my wife's back pack sprayer plus other things.  Nothing of mine except a hammer.  I doubt if anyone will see any return soon!   So Second rule: Expect the unexpected! 

What kind of parent kicks their kids out of the house for any reason?

[Grumpy John]

On 6/24/2020 at 6:46 PM, bwpage3 said:

What kind of parent kicks their kids out of the house for any reason?

The kid was 22, lazy,  making no effort to do any work around the house, made no effort to GEt a job, took advantage of Mar....actually removed 5000 baht from Mars bank without asking...which to me is stealing.  And we suspect she had her hand in the till at our shop in Pattaya some years ago...but could never prove it.  Unfortunately some relatives are better remembered when not around!  Actually she isn't related to me as I didn't adopt her as a child.  It was the vibe.  She never liked me from the get-go.  I knew,  but I still honoured my promise to help take care of her till she turned 18.  Sometimes you have to be tough to get action.  She now works in Mueang Phitsanulok for just over a year...in an office...handling money all day long! ????

 

[Kallemann]

i promised you to update this thread.
Nothing has happened about this project, because of COVID, and i still stuck in norway.
i want to try to grow grass on 2-3 rai, just for seeing how grass will grow.

but i want to be there before put seeds in ground, because i want to make sure water will be drained well in this area we thinking to plant grass.

so hopefully in november i can be there, plant mung beens, and plow these in before put seeds for grass februar/mars 2022.

 

 

[thoongfoned]

wifes friend has some cows, 1 just birthed the other day, looks ok, mum on the thin side, what got me was the prices that were being thrown about, 80/90,000 baht was said to be the going rate for a mum with calve in toe, this lady said to me that she would not sell at said amounts as tooo cheap.. thats almost their value if you butcher them then sell @ 300 bath a kg.

anyone getting top baht for their cattle at the mo?

[kickstart]

On 1/11/2021 at 9:59 AM, thoongfoned said:

wifes friend has some cows, 1 just birthed the other day, looks ok, mum on the thin side, what got me was the prices that were being thrown about, 80/90,000 baht was said to be the going rate for a mum with calve in toe, this lady said to me that she would not sell at said amounts as tooo cheap.. thats almost their value if you butcher them then sell @ 300 bath a kg.

anyone getting top baht for their cattle at the mo?

What breed are they ,in Issan they are in to Red Brahman with the high prices that go with them .

Indo Brazil ,those things with long ears for some reason they are still popular ,and can commend high prices .

We sold 2 bulls about a year old ,they were fit ,conformation not good ,one was an Angus X the other Brahman X.40 000 each , plus 2 smaller heifers 20 0000 baht each ,and we  sold one cow big old cow just calved ,long story we lost the calf ,sold her for 50 000 baht ,not yet  served not in calf .

Friend of mine brought a Charolais  X cow  50 000 baht and a very  nice Beefmaster heifer ,11months old 30 000 baht .

I still think it is this government scheme (,if it is still running ),buy and keep cattle for 4 months ,and sell them ,government picks up the tab ,that is to push the prices up .

But with COVID and the not so good economy ,they are still  no logic in cattle prices .

[thoongfoned]

red ish with long ears.....  yes. its crazy if they can get anything near the price that she says.

a lot of people gotton back into cattle this past year in and around the village, going back 6 or 8 months ago i was hearing 40 - 50,000 baht for mum with a walking calf, then 2 or 3 months later i heard people flippng said animals for anything from 50 -70,000 .... no investment just hand cutting some weeds (have 2 people at the farm now cutting..) we always have people here cutting weeds.

road side beef is 280 kg in village shop 320 kg i buy good minced beef in macro from 270 - 350 kg.

live animal prices just seem crazy to me even if they are sort of subbed by local gov.

on a side note this year someone bought a kubota bailer, now alot of people have a store of "hay"

[Michael Hare]

2 hours ago, thoongfoned said:

red ish with long ears.....  yes. its crazy if they can get anything near the price that she says.

a lot of people gotton back into cattle this past year in and around the village, going back 6 or 8 months ago i was hearing 40 - 50,000 baht for mum with a walking calf, then 2 or 3 months later i heard people flippng said animals for anything from 50 -70,000 .... no investment just hand cutting some weeds (have 2 people at the farm now cutting..) we always have people here cutting weeds.

road side beef is 280 kg in village shop 320 kg i buy good minced beef in macro from 270 - 350 kg.

live animal prices just seem crazy to me even if they are sort of subbed by local gov.

on a side note this year someone bought a kubota bailer, now alot of people have a store of "hay"

 

By "hay", do you mean rice straw? Couldn't possibly be good grass hay?

[kickstart]

3 hours ago, Michael Hare said:

 

By "hay", do you mean rice straw? Couldn't possibly be good grass hay?

Can not be that lucky it will be rice straw .

The only hay I have seen is from  Pangola grass ,and by the time it has been bashed about ,it is all stems and no leaf , feed valve probable just a bit more than rice straw .

Why do Thai's only use Pangola Grass for hay, in this area never seen say Pupal Guinea hay ,what would it take to make some Mulato II hay ,with Thai hay selling at 100-120 baht/bale making and selling hay could be a nice income ,the horse market would be interested 

Of course weather would play a big part getting 3-4 dry days in the rainy season ,when the  grass grows could be a problem,  and the  high humidity ,irrigating in the dry season, and cutting for hay that would work well .  

[Michael Hare]

12 hours ago, kickstart said:

Can not be that lucky it will be rice straw .

The only hay I have seen is from  Pangola grass ,and by the time it has been bashed about ,it is all stems and no leaf , feed valve probable just a bit more than rice straw .

Why do Thai's only use Pangola Grass for hay, in this area never seen say Pupal Guinea hay ,what would it take to make some Mulato II hay ,with Thai hay selling at 100-120 baht/bale making and selling hay could be a nice income ,the horse market would be interested 

Of course weather would play a big part getting 3-4 dry days in the rainy season ,when the  grass grows could be a problem,  and the  high humidity ,irrigating in the dry season, and cutting for hay that would work well .  

 

The main reason that there is pangola hay in Thailand, is that the Department of Livestock Development (DLD) promotes it. Just like they promote the use of Pakchong napier grass and Sweet Israel grass for fresh forage. Both projects are not based on any sound research or science. DLD wants to be seen to be actively doing things with village farmers. These above grasses do not require seeds. They are all planted by stems.

 

For some reason, DLD has moved away from doing anything with species that require sowing by seeds. In the past, they were active with promoting ruzi grass, purple guinea, Hamata stylo and Calvacade. Now no longer.

 

They refuse to even consider Mulato II and Mombasa guinea. Not one single DLD station in Thailand grows any Mulato II or even Mombasa guinea grass for pastures. But Thai farmers are not stupid. Last year we sold 56,000 kg of our seeds within Thailand. At the moment we are selling every day, small quantities of Mulato II to Thai farmers. One large farm in the Khon Kaen area is now making hay and silage for sale from Mulato II.

 

When I first came to Thailand in 1974, I worked for two years at the Borabu Land Development Centre (Mahasarakham province). There we made top quality hay from Townsville stylo and Coastal Bermuda grass. Even in the wet season during the dry June period. Both species have gone now. Townsville stylo got anthracnose disease in 1976 and was immediately replaced by Hamata stylo. Bermuda grass was not productive enough and was replaced by ruzi grass and purple guinea.