The Constitutional Tribunal Disbands Thai Rak Thai - Election cheating

[hammered]

Matchima to seek pardon of TRT execs

Hope for House seats to lobby for amnesty

MANOP THIP-OSOD WASSANA NANUAM

Matchima group leader Somsak Thepsuthin plans to use his group's political clout to seek an amnesty for former Thai Rak Thai executives, including himself, who have been banished to the political wilderness.

He is pinning his hopes on some 80 group members who will be fielded to contest the general election expected to be held in December this year.

Matchima intends to woo support from local politicians and former senators who may join and stand in the polls.

Once in parliament, they will lobby fellow MPs, especially those from the Democrat party, to propose a bill calling for an amnesty for the former executives who have insisted they were not involved in electoral fraud, said Mr Somsak.

As things stand, the Democrat party is likely to win the most seats and form the core of a coalition government.

Democrat leader Abhisit Vejjajiva refused to comment on the Matchima group's plans.

Mr Somsak is among 111 executives who have been banned from political activities for five years after the Constitution Tribunal found the Thai Rak Thai party guilty of electoral fraud and disbanded it on Wednesday.

Mr Somsak, leader of the Wang Nam Yom faction, left Thai Rak Thai shortly after the Sept 19 coup along with some 80 former MPs and 11 former executives. They later set up Matchima, translated as 'the middle path' in English.

The former Thai Rak Thai party has isolated itself from Gen Thammarak Isarangkura na Ayudhaya and Pongsak Raktapongpaisarn since they were accused of paying little-known parties to contest the April 2 elections last year. It claims the two acted as individuals.

Mr Somsak however, said he was trying to view the ruling as a blessing in disguise.

''It may be better for me to stay outside [of politics] and explore the people's problems. This way I will be able to formulate policy platforms [and offer them to the public] when an opportunity arises,'' he said.

A Matchima source said Mr Somsak, who has good connections with key members of the Council for National Security (CNS), was ''disappointed'' with the verdict, but there was nothing he could do.

''There is no better thing than getting the men under his wing to win as many votes as possible. They may also join other parties such as Chart Thai [to boost their chances],'' said the source.

Another source said former Thai Rak Thai MPs in the Northeast may ''regroup under the old banner'' to capitalise on Thai Rak Thai's rural support.

''It will not be easy to win the elections if we run on a ticket of other political parties. The northeastern people support Thai Rak Thai whole-heartedly.

''They do not care what the verdict is and they think the party has been bullied. They are ready to give a sympathy vote,'' said the source.

Meanwhile, another source close to the CNS said the military men were not comfortable dealing with Mr Abhisit and the Democrat party's chief adviser Chuan Leekpai.

The source said that both men are reluctant to engage in dialogue and will not take orders from the military.

However, Democrat party secretary general Suthep Thaugsuban said he was not convinced there were attempts by the military to block his party.

''The Democrat party is neither a bad nor good factor for them,'' he said.

CNS deputy chief ACM Chalit Phukphasuk admitted that the tribunal's rulings took him by surprise and said he expects to see a ''nominee'' party of Thaksin Shinawatra popping up.

CNS chief Sonthi Boonyaratkalin reportedly was not happy with the verdicts and said he would rather see both Thai Rak Thai and the Democrats disbanded.

Source: Bangkok Post

This is all politics. As some have noted the court decision is not exactly what the military wanted. They do not want to have to deal with the Dems who have a record of not being close to the military. They did not spend so much time and effort courting ex-TRT guys for nothing. Now a way of getting them back into the running to stymie or at least limit a Democrat success is needed. By the end of this we could even be looking at something as bizarre as the Dems and the new replacement TRT being allied with the other group consisting of Matchima and some other ex-TRT groups allied with Banharn. There are no permenant friends or allies in politics.

At least we are starting to get back to that grand old game of Thai politics - coalition and alliance formation.

[soundman]

This is all politics. As some have noted the court decision is not exactly what the military wanted. They do not want to have to deal with the Dems who have a record of not being close to the military. They did not spend so much time and effort courting ex-TRT guys for nothing. Now a way of getting them back into the running to stymie or at least limit a Democrat success is needed. By the end of this we could even be looking at something as bizarre as the Dems and the new replacement TRT being allied with the other group consisting of Matchima and some other ex-TRT groups allied with Banharn. There are no permenant friends or allies in politics.

At least we are starting to get back to that grand old game of Thai politics - coalition and alliance formation.

I honestly don't know what to believe when I hear this statement.

IMO this is just lip service to appease 14mil ex TRT members. The outcome is exactly as planned. And the last piece of puzzle to fall into place will be getting the new constitution drafted exactly how they want it too. Poor Surayod can see all this happenning & where its heading - can't you tell - his hair has turned grey in four months!!!

Cheers,

Soundman.

[Abrak]

It seems that there might be a legal loophole that will restore the political rights of the banned TRT executives.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/06/02...al_30035805.php

..in which case things really would start to look better...

[vermin on arrival]

It seems that there might be a legal loophole that will restore the political rights of the banned TRT executives.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/06/02...al_30035805.php

..in which case things really would start to look better...

Yeah, I just read that article. It makes you wonder then what is the purpose of all of these judgements and charges. Is it just to give people leverage in the back room horse trading?

[SiamSquare123]

It seems that there might be a legal loophole that will restore the political rights of the banned TRT executives.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/06/02...al_30035805.php

..in which case things really would start to look better...

what a joke.

[John K]

I can’t help but wonder how much of Thaksin’s money is flying around behind the scenes. To convict someone and then turn around and let them off the hook. I can see that perhaps some of the TRT were innocent of the deed, but as some others have put it TRT are employees of Thaksin. If they did not place themselves first before their constituency then I would tend to agree to let them off.

[BkkPundit]

Yeah, I just read that article. It makes you wonder then what is the purpose of all of these judgements and charges. Is it just to give people leverage in the back room horse trading?

Simple, after the Suan Dusit poll where "34% of respondents nationwide expressed support for the tribunal judges' performance in the party dissolution trials." who now appears as the white knight in shining armour to meet the needs of the masses. Gen Sonthi. Instead of appearing vindictive, he appears to be conciliatory. It is a compromise pure and simple and Gen. Sonthi will claim credit for it all.

The judgements were also necessary as they signal to future political parties that all power rests with the military. It is like them saying, we can throw you out of government, change the laws, set up a court, punish you, and then save you. We can do it all and all power rests with us so don't cross us.

[highdiver]

the court did a very good job at least in my point of view and sent a very clear message to the Thai public. its not what is used to be. coruption and political corrption will not be brushed under the carpet any longer. those who are found guilty will be punished.

if thailand is to progress into a better future then this rouling should be welcomed with open arms.

The party has done wrong and there for it will be disbnaded, and those leading it who knew what was going on.(and you must be very childish if you belive they didnt) will be baned from politics for the next 5 years.

however in the Thailand way of thinking there is no doubt that those found guilty have lost face.

As such there are those who are looking to help those who have lost face. and as one poster beutifully wrote "seek an amnesty for former Thai Rak Thai executives, including himself, who have been banished to the political wilderness."

those accused should be baned and as far away from power positions as possible.

the message that the court sent out even if therer are those who disagree is very clear. and future politicians will be very carefull to cross the line. this in itself is a huge leap.

Thailand deserves better then a bunch of corrupt people and maybe now will be the time of new faces and politicians who will from now on be very carefull.

[pyrolover2000]

I work for a branch of government "D.O.C." I deal with Thai commerce on a daily basis. When I am invited to dinner by government offical while in bangkok. I often am invited to their homes.

So, I may see a bit more than you.

You've been to the houses of the CNS? ! Wow! Should make a good scoop for the bloggers or a newspaper! You should get pictures of all their new houses apartments condos and cars ... then get their tax returns ... and show all this to the world!!!

While your story MAY be true ... you have yet to document any of your claim.

Since there seems to be doubt on your behalf. I have chosen to send you this.

Since my photo and personal information are on the front, I won't be showing that.

You still have not documented any claims as to new cars, houses, etc .....

Cool about the back of a card though! File Clerk?

Thai generals ask former assassin to be security adviser

BANGKOK: -- Frustrated by their inability to pacify a Muslim insurgency and concerned about rising impatience toward their rule, Thailand's generals have named a former commando and self-described assassin as their top security adviser.

The appointment this month of Pallop Pinmanee, a retired general notorious for his harsh tactics but admired for his survival instincts, appears to be an acknowledgement that the military-backed government's conciliatory approach toward Muslim insurgents in southern Thailand has failed.

"The way to solve the problem in the south is to get the people on your side," Pallop said in an interview this week. But if the violence continues, he said, the military should carry out "search and destroy" missions against the insurgents. "If we cannot make them surrender, then we have no choice - we have to destroy them."

Pallop's appointment also seems to signal that the generals who overthrew the government of Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra in September, and who have trodden lightly against their political opponents so far, are contemplating harsher and more repressive actions toward dissent.

Pallop said Sonthi Boonyaratglin, the general who led the September coup, asked him to serve as an adviser during a round of golf in March. The two men once served together in a special warfare unit.

Pallop, a retired general who turned 71 on Friday, speaks about his days as an army-appointed assassin in a casual, matter-of-fact tone and offers little to dispel his tough-guy reputation. He was the leader of what he called the "killer team," a secret seven-man unit of the army in 1970 that carried out extrajudicial killings. "The assignment was to kill the leaders of communist groups all over Thailand," Pallop said.

Pallop also served as a guerrilla mercenary for the CIA along the Ho Chi Minh Trail in the 1960s.

But he is perhaps best known for his decision to raid the Krue Se mosque in southern Thailand in 2004, a controversial move that left 32 insurgents dead. The raid helped reignite the centuries-old conflict between Thai Buddhists and ethnic Malay Muslims.

"Diplomacy is not his strong point," Thitinan Pongsudhirak, director of the Institute of Security and International Studies at Chulalongkorn University, said of Pallop. "His expertise is to kill people and deal with things by force."

It is too early to tell how influential Pallop will be in the government. But amid rumors of countercoups and maneuvering by Thaksin's allies, the generals seem to have calculated that they needed the skills of a master tactician. Pallop has been involved in three military coups and is alleged to have once plotted an assassination against an army commander.

"When things get hairy, you get Pallop on your side," Thitinan said. "He knows how to fight back."

Pallop began his new job on May 3 at the Internal Security Operations Command, a military agency created under another name in the 1960s as a tool to fight communists in the country. Returning to ISOC, as the agency is known, was a rehabilitation for Pallop, who until last August was the deputy director of the agency but was fired when Thaksin accused him of plotting to assassinate him.

Pallop ridiculed the idea at the time, saying, "If I had done it, I guarantee that the prime minister would not have survived."

Pallop says he is using ISOC's network of 700,000 volunteers around the country to gather intelligence on opponents to the generals' rule.

"They are our eyes around the country," he said.

On Tuesday, he plans to meet with one of the critics of the junta, Veera Musikapong, who has led demonstrations and is sympathetic to Thaksin.

"To get the tiger cub you have to go to the tiger's cave," Pallop said, adding that he would warn Veera that protesting against the junta risked destabilizing Thailand further.

If this approach does not work, the junta will have to consider emergency rule to stop what he calls "mobs" from protesting, Pallop said.

"We are trying to avoid this because it would mean a lot of violence and fighting," he said of emergency rule.

The Thai constitutional court is scheduled to decide on Wednesday whether Thaksin's party and the leading opposition party should be disbanded for fraud, a ruling that could further unsettle a country yearning for a return to normalcy.

Opposition to the ruling generals has mounted in recent months as discussions on a new constitution have dragged on and the situation in the south has deteriorated.

After seizing power in September, the junta vowed to take a soft approach toward the southern insurgency in contrast to Thaksin's hard-line stance. Last November, Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont issued a far-reaching public apology on behalf of the Thai state for what he called flawed government policies toward local Malay Muslims.

But this and other olive branches failed to stem the daily killings of civilians - rubber tappers, municipal workers and teachers chief among them.

Pallop says he can beat insurgents at their own game because it's a game he has played himself - in 1966 and 1967, when he led guerrilla units in attacks against North Vietnamese traveling the Ho Chi Minh Trail. "The strategy of hit and run I know very well," Pallop said.

Pallop declined to reveal exactly how many suspected communists he and his six fellow assassins killed in 1970 - "many, many," he said - but he lamented one particular rebel who got away: Payom Chulanont, the father of the current military-appointed prime minister, Surayud.

"We almost got him," Pallop said dryly.

He did not want to name the people he assassinated because it would upset too many relatives still alive today, he said.

Pallop appeared relaxed in the interview and said he had stayed alive this long because he was a careful person. His colleagues seem more concerned. Aides carried into his office a birthday present from a fellow general in the Thai Army: a bulletproof vest.

-- IHT 2007-05-26

Good reading for those who doubted me and took jabs at my post. Do you believe that he was really hired just to take care of the problems in the south? LOL......

[Thaising]

TRT to publish verdict in English for foreign organizations

Three days after a landmark verdict was handed down by Constitution Tribunal dissolving Thai Rak Thai Party on electoral fraud in April 2006 general election, Chaturon Chaisang, acting leader of the defunct party, said his party would translate the ruling into English and distribute it to worldwide organisations.

Continue here: http://etna.mcot.net/query.php?nid=29692

[Thaising]

PM is still undecided on amesty for TRT politicians

Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont said Saturday he is still undecided on an idea to grant amnesty to banned executives of now-defunct Thai Rak Thai party.

His personal idea is that it is not the right timing to propose amnesty for the TRT politicians.

Surayud said Council for National Security's chief Gen Sonthi Bunyaratglin raised the idea with him during a meeting on Saturday morning.

"He asked me whether it is ok if he told the public about it. I told him that it is fine because it is still an idea and his own idea," Surayud said in a news talk television programme.

In an unexpected move Gen Sonthi said CNS support an idea to grant amnesty to TRT executives whom the Constitutional Tribunal banned them from politics for five years.

The Constitutional Tribunal disbanded on Wednesday their party and banned all 11 party's executives.

The Tribunal based its bans on the executives on the CNS's orders issued after the coup d'etat that ousted Thaksin last year.

Sonthi said the CNS supported the amnesty wanted to promote reconciliation in the country.

He claimed in the interview that Surayud supported the idea.

"Most of these 111 people weren't involved with what happened,'' he said, referring to the Thai Rak Thai executives who were barred.

The politicians who are considered not involved in the wrongdoings could be granted the amnesty, he said. However the government will propose it to the National Legislative Assembly for consideration and it will be issued as an Act.

Sonthi said Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont supported the idea.

The government and NLA will jointly decide which executives should be given the amnesty.

Asked if the government will not propose the amnesty to the National Legislative Assembly for consideration, Surayud said for now the government has a job to study into the Tribunal's rulings to learn about their consequences and to know what to do next concerning the rulings.

The prime minister said it would be very difficult to known which the TRT's executives were involved or not involved in the wrongdoings.

The procedure of issuing amnesty, an NLA member will propose it to the government and the government will study it to know whether it is appropriate or not before it is forwarded to the NLA. The government could propose its own draft to the NLA for consideration.

The Nation

[LaoPo]

PM is still undecided on amesty for TRT politicians

Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont said Saturday he is still undecided on an idea to grant amnesty to banned executives of now-defunct Thai Rak Thai party.

His personal idea is that it is not the right timing to propose amnesty for the TRT politicians.

Surayud said Council for National Security's chief Gen Sonthi Bunyaratglin raised the idea with him during a meeting on Saturday morning.

"He asked me whether it is ok if he told the public about it. I told him that it is fine because it is still an idea and his own idea," Surayud said in a news talk television programme.

In an unexpected move Gen Sonthi said CNS support an idea to grant amnesty to TRT executives whom the Constitutional Tribunal banned them from politics for five years.

The Constitutional Tribunal disbanded on Wednesday their party and banned all 11 party's executives.

The Tribunal based its bans on the executives on the CNS's orders issued after the coup d'etat that ousted Thaksin last year.

Sonthi said the CNS supported the amnesty wanted to promote reconciliation in the country.

He claimed in the interview that Surayud supported the idea.

"Most of these 111 people weren't involved with what happened,'' he said, referring to the Thai Rak Thai executives who were barred.

The politicians who are considered not involved in the wrongdoings could be granted the amnesty, he said. However the government will propose it to the National Legislative Assembly for consideration and it will be issued as an Act.

Sonthi said Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont supported the idea.

The government and NLA will jointly decide which executives should be given the amnesty.

Asked if the government will not propose the amnesty to the National Legislative Assembly for consideration, Surayud said for now the government has a job to study into the Tribunal's rulings to learn about their consequences and to know what to do next concerning the rulings.

The prime minister said it would be very difficult to known which the TRT's executives were involved or not involved in the wrongdoings.

The procedure of issuing amnesty, an NLA member will propose it to the government and the government will study it to know whether it is appropriate or not before it is forwarded to the NLA. The government could propose its own draft to the NLA for consideration.

The Nation

Clever -political- possible move of Sonthi and (maybe) PM Surayud in order to keep the 'people' quiet....

IF they grant amnesty to the majority of the 110 'innocent' TRT-politicians it would be a great move towards the elections, with or without the TRT itself.

LaoPo

[hammered]

PM is still undecided on amesty for TRT politicians

Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont said Saturday he is still undecided on an idea to grant amnesty to banned executives of now-defunct Thai Rak Thai party.

His personal idea is that it is not the right timing to propose amnesty for the TRT politicians.

Surayud said Council for National Security's chief Gen Sonthi Bunyaratglin raised the idea with him during a meeting on Saturday morning.

"He asked me whether it is ok if he told the public about it. I told him that it is fine because it is still an idea and his own idea," Surayud said in a news talk television programme.

In an unexpected move Gen Sonthi said CNS support an idea to grant amnesty to TRT executives whom the Constitutional Tribunal banned them from politics for five years.

The Constitutional Tribunal disbanded on Wednesday their party and banned all 11 party's executives.

The Tribunal based its bans on the executives on the CNS's orders issued after the coup d'etat that ousted Thaksin last year.

Sonthi said the CNS supported the amnesty wanted to promote reconciliation in the country.

He claimed in the interview that Surayud supported the idea.

"Most of these 111 people weren't involved with what happened,'' he said, referring to the Thai Rak Thai executives who were barred.

The politicians who are considered not involved in the wrongdoings could be granted the amnesty, he said. However the government will propose it to the National Legislative Assembly for consideration and it will be issued as an Act.

Sonthi said Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont supported the idea.

The government and NLA will jointly decide which executives should be given the amnesty.

Asked if the government will not propose the amnesty to the National Legislative Assembly for consideration, Surayud said for now the government has a job to study into the Tribunal's rulings to learn about their consequences and to know what to do next concerning the rulings.

The prime minister said it would be very difficult to known which the TRT's executives were involved or not involved in the wrongdoings.

The procedure of issuing amnesty, an NLA member will propose it to the government and the government will study it to know whether it is appropriate or not before it is forwarded to the NLA. The government could propose its own draft to the NLA for consideration.

The Nation

Clever -political- possible move of Sonthi and (maybe) PM Surayud in order to keep the 'people' quiet....

IF they grant amnesty to the majority of the 110 'innocent' TRT-politicians it would be a great move towards the elections, with or without the TRT itself.

LaoPo

This is all politics and it has swung to the Sonthi and Saaryud side now. The TRT even if they reform no longer have a name, assets, members, staff or anything really. The amnesty depends on the largesse of the military/government. Many of the ex-TRT MPs deperatley need to be in the next election. That means they need a party to run under. Talk is coming of an early election. Many of the ex-TRT executives would rather be in an election than out. Quite a few of the ex-TRT members had already gotten close to the military. Interesting times indeed.

[John K]

As a similar post in another thread, If I were in a position to override the ruling I would be hard pressed to second guess the faith HRH put in the judges. I simply would not want to even go there.

[Old Man River]

Well that's good news. Purachai was always very popular, and is widely recognized for being tough on corruption. Not sure if he could get an actual party together as massive as TRT.

Wasn't Purachai the idiot who tried to rush through all the social order campaigns including shutting all nightlife down by 10pm?

Soundman.

Purachai is far from an idiot, but he is known to be highly inflexible which in the past has caused him difficulties with other party members.

Irrespective of his actual intellect, to try & push through a radical law that will only create an illegal industry (industries) that service public discontent is absolute idiocy & lunacy.

Soundman.

Whether we agree with his policies or not his name does come up more and more now that many he didn't get along with were among the banned 111. Still, going forward his political future will depend on his ability to be flexible and historically, this hasn't been one of his strong suits. Personally, I hope he fades, but probably that won't be the case.

[Tony Clifton]

What is it with habit of finding people guilty and then releasing them shortly after or giving them amnesty?

Anybody remember how long the Election Commissioners were in jail? 3 <deleted>' days. What have they learned? That you can get away with anything.

[ray23]

The only message I see being sent with this immediate talk of amnesty is business as usual and nothing has changed

[ilyushin]

Party! or not?

[Mid]

What is it with habit of finding people guilty and then releasing them shortly after or giving them amnesty?

Anybody remember how long the Election Commissioners were in jail? 3 <deleted>' days. What have they learned? That you can get away with anything.

The only message I see being sent with this immediate talk of amnesty is business as usual and nothing has changed

madness.................

[Old Man River]

Like it or not, even with all its many faults - TRT came as close to a unified voting block of the rural areas as it ever was in Thailand. Do you have any practical suggestion on alternatives? As long as the Democrats do have no policies there is only the canvasser system.

The question here is about feasible alternatives, and not what if scenarios and wishful thinking, and the easy attachment of blame to the villagers. Name me an alternative, please. Democrats? They had their chances, and have chosen to do nothing other than upholding the status quo. Why did the Democrats not introduce a national health system? Why did the Democrats do nothing about the increasing drug problem, so that in the end a massacre happened, that was supported by the majority of the population and initiated by almost all quarters of power in this country?

Actually, I was hoping to elicit alternatives from you. You have the ties upcountry. Given where we are, what alternatives would you suggest?

From my side, I believe the Demo's will provide the best alternative and not just because of personal biases. The fact that the old guard has finally given Abhisit and others the chance to lead the party is a strong indication that they have recognized that remaining status quo won't win elections. Personally, I think Abhisit will make a very strong PM and hope he is given the chance.

[mumbu]

Well that's good news. Purachai was always very popular, and is widely recognized for being tough on corruption. Not sure if he could get an actual party together as massive as TRT.

Wasn't Purachai the idiot who tried to rush through all the social order campaigns including shutting all nightlife down by 10pm?

Soundman.

Purachai is far from an idiot, but he is known to be highly inflexible which in the past has caused him difficulties with other party members.

Irrespective of his actual intellect, to try & push through a radical law that will only create an illegal industry (industries) that service public discontent is absolute idiocy & lunacy.

Soundman.

Whether we agree with his policies or not his name does come up more and more now that many he didn't get along with were among the banned 111. Still, going forward his political future will depend on his ability to be flexible and historically, this hasn't been one of his strong suits. Personally, I hope he fades, but probably that won't be the case.

Purachai is an absolute jerk uncapable of doing any concrete job. He has no future in Thai politics.

[LaoPo]

What is it with habit of finding people guilty and then releasing them shortly after or giving them amnesty?

That's called Thai style CONSENSUS.

No matter how long a -any- farang lives in the Far East, we will never completely understand the underlying 'currents' amongst the people and their decisions...

LaoPo

[ColPyat]

Like it or not, even with all its many faults - TRT came as close to a unified voting block of the rural areas as it ever was in Thailand. Do you have any practical suggestion on alternatives? As long as the Democrats do have no policies there is only the canvasser system.

The question here is about feasible alternatives, and not what if scenarios and wishful thinking, and the easy attachment of blame to the villagers. Name me an alternative, please. Democrats? They had their chances, and have chosen to do nothing other than upholding the status quo. Why did the Democrats not introduce a national health system? Why did the Democrats do nothing about the increasing drug problem, so that in the end a massacre happened, that was supported by the majority of the population and initiated by almost all quarters of power in this country?

Actually, I was hoping to elicit alternatives from you. You have the ties upcountry. Given where we are, what alternatives would you suggest?

From my side, I believe the Demo's will provide the best alternative and not just because of personal biases. The fact that the old guard has finally given Abhisit and others the chance to lead the party is a strong indication that they have recognized that remaining status quo won't win elections. Personally, I think Abhisit will make a very strong PM and hope he is given the chance.

I don't know, i wish i could give alternatives. I would wish there would be a possibility for a larger social democratic party that can work within a coalition, or even forming the government. This is really missing here in Thailand, and TRT filled that hole, but obviously not very well.

My problem with Abhisit is first, that he refused to contest elections, which has brought the whole mess upon us, and not has trusted the democratic process that would in the end have gotten rid off Thaksin as well, slower, but without the mess the coup has created, including the ISOC etc.

And i very much doubt that Abhisit has the slightest chance to tackle the canvasser and godfather system. I fear that he would simply play it as Chuan did - leave large areas of the country to that system, form coalitions, and change in fact nothing whatsoever.

The Democrats have very little chance though to attract the many good and honest politicians that the TRT also had, who do have long experience with upcountry problems, and how to work with the people there.

I still have no idea though what Abhisit's policies are. How is he going to tackle the problems of the sectors of society that lag behind. What is he going to do with them?

[mumbu]

The fallacy is to think that Thaksin would have let it go. It would have been exactly the same as Stalin consolidated his power, jailed or killed his internal party oppostion, and eventually turned the country into Gulag.

That is a big pile of paranoid rubbish.

He would have had ample time to do all you alleged, but he didn't. Compare him with Berlusconi, or even Bush, but please, get a grip on reality.

He was elected PM for 5 years. He did extend more than a few democratic rules, but what you accuse him of here is absolutely baseless and counter any study even highly critical of him, even exceeds the idiotic Finland declaration conspiracy.

I'm not accusing him of anything, certainly not on a scale of Stalin, I'm making comparisons. Once Stalin had a taste of power, nothing and nobody could stand in his way. There were some decent people among his peers even by western standards but he left no prisoners, everyone had to go.

Many of TRT's original party founders have left competely disillusioned, too. Take this Purachai, he used to be TRT no 2 and then got unceremoniously fired and exiled to New Zealand. Not quite like Stalin's purges, but the principle is the same.

There's no denying that Thaksin didn't allow anyone within his party to appear as equal to him and it was pointed out many times.

If you don't like comparison to communists of Russia, how about any other communists regime - when did they ever allow any political challenge to their rule?

Never.

Thaksin clearly stated that he wanted TRT to rule for twenty years at least without any serious opposition. What makes you think he would change his mind?

You really should brush up on your history before making such comical comparisons. Stalin did in the civil war head some of the most brutal militias, responsible for uncounted deaths and genocide already then.

Thaksin managed cleverly the many different factions of powerful vested interests that stood behind TRT, by playing each other out against each other, and making concessions when needed. Your fallacy is that you believe that TRT was a monolithic structure led by the fuhrer principle, or similar to one of the communist regimes gone insane.

people trying to compare thaksin to stalin or mao truly astound me. communism in the last century has to be one the biggest failures in history. in their attempt to convert everybody to communism, the communists in the last century killed over 100+ million people.

thaksin is an angel compared to hitler, stalin or mao.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

In his blind and paranoidal hate to khun Thaksin, Plus fails to see the obvious: Thaksin tried to steer Thailand towards Singapore model.

Of course, Singapore is not exactly the democracy. But if you ask me where I would prefer to live: in "democratic " Iraq or "totalitarian" Singapore, you can easily guess my answer.

[Mid]

My problem with Abhisit is first, that he refused to contest elections, which has brought the whole mess upon us

your better than that ,

this is simply not true

[ray23]

Laopo your absolutley correct, What the junta expacted and said so wa a both parties would be diesolved and we could haev a fesh start. Hmm seems to me lot of talk about how the courts decesion would be honored, well I guess one out of three ain't bad, even if it was the only real winner.

To the western mind why go though all this, if yuo were not serious in the first place.

Weeks of we are going to get ready for the mob destroying the city, didn't happen cause the Thai's do understand.

It's Thailand and the country belongs to the Thai's not me, I enjoy being a guest here but it does amaze me, I would think in the end it will amaze all the investors from foriegn countries they are looking for as well.

Stock market posted respectful gains immediatley, nothing has happened to to reflect that stabilty that everyone was looking for. Sure they can pardon eveyone what will the Democrats do raise holy hel_l. So what will be accomplished in the end more gamenship and tormoil. I really don't think that was what the goal was.

So do the Thai's see that differently, by the way an honest question as I don't know.

The king wa correct no one likes the end product

[Old Man River]

Like it or not, even with all its many faults - TRT came as close to a unified voting block of the rural areas as it ever was in Thailand. Do you have any practical suggestion on alternatives? As long as the Democrats do have no policies there is only the canvasser system.

The question here is about feasible alternatives, and not what if scenarios and wishful thinking, and the easy attachment of blame to the villagers. Name me an alternative, please. Democrats? They had their chances, and have chosen to do nothing other than upholding the status quo. Why did the Democrats not introduce a national health system? Why did the Democrats do nothing about the increasing drug problem, so that in the end a massacre happened, that was supported by the majority of the population and initiated by almost all quarters of power in this country?

Actually, I was hoping to elicit alternatives from you. You have the ties upcountry. Given where we are, what alternatives would you suggest?

From my side, I believe the Demo's will provide the best alternative and not just because of personal biases. The fact that the old guard has finally given Abhisit and others the chance to lead the party is a strong indication that they have recognized that remaining status quo won't win elections. Personally, I think Abhisit will make a very strong PM and hope he is given the chance.

I don't know, i wish i could give alternatives. I would wish there would be a possibility for a larger social democratic party that can work within a coalition, or even forming the government. This is really missing here in Thailand, and TRT filled that hole, but obviously not very well.

My problem with Abhisit is first, that he refused to contest elections, which has brought the whole mess upon us, and not has trusted the democratic process that would in the end have gotten rid off Thaksin as well, slower, but without the mess the coup has created, including the ISOC etc.

And i very much doubt that Abhisit has the slightest chance to tackle the canvasser and godfather system. I fear that he would simply play it as Chuan did - leave large areas of the country to that system, form coalitions, and change in fact nothing whatsoever.

The Democrats have very little chance though to attract the many good and honest politicians that the TRT also had, who do have long experience with upcountry problems, and how to work with the people there.

I still have no idea though what Abhisit's policies are. How is he going to tackle the problems of the sectors of society that lag behind. What is he going to do with them?

Maybe it will go back to business as usual. This is a distinct possibility. Human nature is to give up as little as you need to give up in order to get what you want. Thaksin gave up what he needed to, and the junta has given up much less because they don't have to. It remains to be seen what the Demo's will provide, but I think they remain the best alternative that is acceptable to the military. As for a social democratic party, it took a long time for the social democrats to gain power in several Latin American countries and it would be a long time here, but it has to start somewhere.

[Old Man River]

Well that's good news. Purachai was always very popular, and is widely recognized for being tough on corruption. Not sure if he could get an actual party together as massive as TRT.

Wasn't Purachai the idiot who tried to rush through all the social order campaigns including shutting all nightlife down by 10pm?

Soundman.

Purachai is far from an idiot, but he is known to be highly inflexible which in the past has caused him difficulties with other party members.

Irrespective of his actual intellect, to try & push through a radical law that will only create an illegal industry (industries) that service public discontent is absolute idiocy & lunacy.

Soundman.

Whether we agree with his policies or not his name does come up more and more now that many he didn't get along with were among the banned 111. Still, going forward his political future will depend on his ability to be flexible and historically, this hasn't been one of his strong suits. Personally, I hope he fades, but probably that won't be the case.

Purachai is an absolute jerk uncapable of doing any concrete job. He has no future in Thai politics.

Absolute jerks incapable of doing any concrete job are, unfortunately, often the ones who do end up in politics.

[ding]

If he's going to shut down nightlife by 10pm he's not a factor in reality. Of course, TIT

Edited June 2, 2007 by ding

[ColPyat]

Maybe it will go back to business as usual. This is a distinct possibility.

And that is the big problem, there we would be back at square one.

Business as usual in the Thailand i remember was life is good in the city, and the upcountry folks have to be happy with what is given to them, and are not supposed to say anything, are good for cutey little folk sort of stuff, so that the ones in the city can feel good about themselves that they live in such a great culture.

Problem though is that things are a bit different, and upcountry folks have seen TRT as the first party that has given them a voice (i know - TRT did not exactly give them much of a voice, but it is a question of perception).

I just don't see the Democrats changing themselves to the extend that they are able to give those upcountry folks a voice, imagined, or even real. Regardless the name - the Democrats are a very conservative party.

We desperately need an alternative to TRT's populist policies, and that is a party that represents these people. If we don't get that very quickly - than things in the future, in a few years, might turn very ugly here.