Thai Higher-ups Want To Cull Out Undesirables -

[wolfmanjack]

...and I am going to switch to a marriage Visa myself, tired of having the company scrutinized by another "well meaning institution"

I may have to switch to a married visa myself. I do not want to sweat bullets waiting for them to estimate the value of my machines. I heard they will not allow the land or building to count right ??

[ludosiam]

I can hardly understand why the Thai government want to have a small amount of big players instead of a big amount of small players now. There was a report from a foreign analyst about the unusual tax payment discrepancy between small and big companies, guess who in relation to income did pay more......

Just searching the net if I can find that article again, did anybody else read about this issue?

[ThaiGoon]

Wolf, I don't have problems with people who have legitimate complaints about Thailand or visa regualtions, but I have to say that it's pretty hard for me to tell what's a truth or what's a fiction in most of their (your) stories. Sometimes people just overexaggerated their problems (or their contributions to Thailand). So I don't really know what to believe. That's why I've been just mostly reading in this thread.

As for the sh*thole comment, it was definitely not targeted at you or the USA.

[wolfmanjack]

I can hardly understand why the Thai government want to have a small amount of big players instead of a big amount of small players now. There was a report from a foreign analyst about the unusual tax payment discrepancy between small and big companies, guess who in relation to income did pay more......

Just searching the net if I can find that article again, did anybody else read about this issue?

i don't understand it either. The majority of the jobs are created by SME's in the USA. I assume it is the same here, out side the agricultural sector that is.

[ludosiam]

To wolfmanjack: not sure what they actually do count in on that. Maybe they will check weight of any foreigner and calculate 100kg x 75 THB = 7.500 ?

The balance sheets are actually done by an external auditor and that's what they are checking on now, I had explicitly asked if the amount required is being raised accordingly we do have to pay a much bigger sum of taxes than we do now. The balance sheets do show roughly the same amount every year as business is rather stable.

[ThaiGoon]

I can hardly understand why the Thai government want to have a small amount of big players instead of a big amount of small players now. There was a report from a foreign analyst about the unusual tax payment discrepancy between small and big companies, guess who in relation to income did pay more......

Just searching the net if I can find that article again, did anybody else read about this issue?

There are still a lot of poor people in Thailand. I think the gov't has been trying to make sure that the less well off locals got the priority and the protection in establishing small businesses.

[mpdkorat]

That's 40k SPLIT between 2 adults .... 20k each ... not crazy at all!

Maybe not in BKK...but it IS a lot in most places.

I have a friend in Chiang Rai who is married to a nurse. He gets 20 000 teaching, she makes 12 000.

They 'fail' the 40 000 test. A teacher and a nurse "aren't the types of people Thailand want"?

If he is a teacher suggest he gets a work permit?

[ludosiam]

There are still a lot of poor people in Thailand. I think the gov't has been trying to make sure that the less well off locals got the priority and the protection in establishing small businesses.

If that is the ideology behind it is fair enough and standard practice, and therefore we do have a foreign business act (much discussed though). The company I am employed by is 100% Thai owned though and still gets scrutinized by the immigration for employing 1 foreigner, Tax payment is expected to be higher than that of companies that do not employ foreigners and therefore I believe there is a different ideology behind it.

The real thread to the poorer people are loan sharks, be it legal or illegal ones. The trend to give cheap loans on loan papers so every farmer is able to buy a pickup truck and a mobile phone as been initiated by the former government and I believe that this will create severe imbalances in society in the long term.

I like your statement that many people do over exaggerate their positive impact on society. I cannot believe that an average person no matter it's origin actually has any substantial impact on society in general at all, maybe some on their immediate surroundings, be it good or bad, not up to me to judge this. But if it is all that bad I believe the immediate surrounding would have the problem solved without the help of any immigration regulations.

[mpdkorat]

Just on the one topic of dowries: The going rate for a dowry in Issan is 1 mllion baht upwards, and how many girls' families, just from Issan province alone, get a fat dowry paid by farang every year? You won't find those dollar amounts in gov't statistics. Plus, there are the inevitable on-going amounts paid to the wife and her family and often there's properties bought in the wife's name that are left to her if the couple splits up (which happens more often than not). This all may sound off-topic, but the point is there's tens of billions of baht annually of outside money that gets infused in to the Thai economy that is not acknowledged by the Bangkok bean counters - that comes from farang - tourists and unofficial residents.

That interesting my isaan young brother in law just paid 40,000 baht. He must have got a bargain!!

[Khun ?]

The fact is ,Thailand has enough of it's own lower income and not well educated people already.

By accepting the same from Farang land does not bode well with what they would like as an ideal

foreigner. In other words if you are of average middle class and above back home you most likely would be of great benefit and well behaved to mix in with their society. You also will

not be a burden on the limited infastructure that does not support it's own very well already

( water, sewage, roads and other communty and government agencies).

Also allowing anyone that wishes to stay regardless of status will be a turn off to the tourist trade. Tourist get turned off when they see Thailand has become a haven for the lower income

population of Farangland, mainly England, Germany, Australia and a few others.

I guess they must be saying we welcome your average successful retiree's that will spend as they do back home, but must limit the amount of budget restrained individuals to a few

if they are to maintain a thriving toursit destination.

As with most countries violent crimminals for the most part are in the lower income brackets.

Chances are that families of low income foreigners being a benefit to the thai society in the future are low also.

They are looking at the societies in which one comes, as to the basis of you being a possible benefit. In other words of reasonable means and successes. Being of barely above poverty

level in your own country does not make you a likely canidate for long stay in their country.

They would like to have people from foreign societies that have accomplished at least middle class success to being advantagous to their society.

Do not take it personal, it is just the way a developing nation must progress positively.

Come with reasonable credentials from your home country in farangland and most likely you will be fine. JMHO

[wolfmanjack]

Wolf, I don't have problems with people who have legitimate complaints about Thailand or visa regualtions, but I have to say that it's pretty hard for me to tell what's a truth or what's a fiction in most of their (your) stories. Sometimes people just over exaggerated their problems (or their contributions to Thailand). So I don't really know what to believe. That's why I've been just mostly reading in this thread.

As for the sh*thole comment, it was definitely not targeted at you or the USA.

thank you for clarifying that. I have to agree with you that some of the posters probably exaggerate on the amount of money they bring into the country. I think that most of them that claim 100,000 baht per month or less are not exaggerating too much though and based on the money multiplier affect that 100,000 brought in from another country represents around 1 million or more to the economy.

So lets say that simplified visa regs could bring 100,000 retirees to the Chiang Mai are. Based on the # of North Americans retiring in Central and south america this is not unreasonable to assume the number could be much more. Lest say that the financial is only 30,000 per retiree which is the national average in the USA for social security. This would mean 3,000,000,000 baht in monthly income from abroad. With the money multiplier of 10 (probably higher for thailand) this would mean 30,000,000 baht to the local economy. That is a lot of jobs.

[wolfmanjack]

I can hardly understand why the Thai government want to have a small amount of big players instead of a big amount of small players now. There was a report from a foreign analyst about the unusual tax payment discrepancy between small and big companies, guess who in relation to income did pay more......

Just searching the net if I can find that article again, did anybody else read about this issue?

There are still a lot of poor people in Thailand. I think the gov't has been trying to make sure that the less well off locals got the priority and the protection in establishing small businesses.

Fair enough. That is what the OTOP was supposed to be for. In reality it ended up giving money to many thai companies that had already been established for years prior to it's inception. It did get some poor people in business though. I also believe there is room for us all.

the fact is that many of the businesses we run, a poor thai can not find the funds to start it up or have the knowledge to run the business. There are only 2 reasons I my business is still doing ok. Not great but ok.

The first and main reason is that I am a falang. Many buyers have been burned by thai companies in the past and no longer wish to deal with them even though their prices are lower. Also they know they can communicate with me. It is not only being able to speak english which most poor can not. It is understanding what they are talking about.If they ask for a blue item they know they will get blue and not green. You will probably be able to run one of our businesses because you are studying in the USA and maybe learning how we think.

The second reason is I maintain a consistent quality.

For the most part I would say that the poor people have a 0% chance to be able to run our businesses even if the gov kicked us all out.

I will put something else up to you. If all of us that own business here in thailand picked up and moved to another country, lets say vietnam, what do you think would happen to the thai businesses we are competing with now?

I will use my case as an example.

1. All of my customers will follow me.

2. My prices will be much less than they are now so none of thai businesses could compete on price.

a. My labor cost would be half and I would get more out of my workers.

b. My transport cost would be less than half since I would no longer have to ship to Bangkok before the container is loaded on the ship.

c. My raw materials cost would be less.

c. I would be able to exhibit at the trade shows in thailand to put my better quality at a lower price in the face of the same buyers that the more expensive thai companies are showing to. A perfect example is at the BIG show in bangkok. A company from Indonesia came to the show a few years ago. he started out with one booth. Now he has 10. His business is booming. He is copying products from thailand and selling them here for less than the thai companies.

I don't want to go to vietnam and it is a last case scenario for me. My wife is thai, my children are half thai, and thailand is my home. If the rules change too much i may be forced to go.

[Khun ?]

Why would you use social security which is or was designed to be a supplement to pensions and

the likes. Yes many do end up on social security only, but they are not the average class retirement

wages. About double social security would be closer to average.

Wolf, I don't have problems with people who have legitimate complaints about Thailand or visa regualtions, but I have to say that it's pretty hard for me to tell what's a truth or what's a fiction in most of their (your) stories. Sometimes people just over exaggerated their problems (or their contributions to Thailand). So I don't really know what to believe. That's why I've been just mostly reading in this thread.

As for the sh*thole comment, it was definitely not targeted at you or the USA.

thank you for clarifying that. I have to agree with you that some of the posters probably exaggerate on the amount of money they bring into the country. I think that most of them that claim 100,000 baht per month or less are not exaggerating too much though and based on the money multiplier affect that 100,000 brought in from another country represents around 1 million or more to the economy.

So lets say that simplified visa regs could bring 100,000 retirees to the Chiang Mai are. Based on the # of North Americans retiring in Central and south america this is not unreasonable to assume the number could be much more. Lest say that the financial is only 30,000 per retiree which is the national average in the USA for social security. This would mean 3,000,000,000 baht in monthly income from abroad. With the money multiplier of 10 (probably higher for thailand) this would mean 30,000,000 baht to the local economy. That is a lot of jobs.

[Naam]

Interesting that people who keep calling Thailand 3rd world and ridiculing the country are always the ones who want Thailand to change visa regulations and do anything so that people like them could stay or keep coming back to Thailand.

If they want to visit or stay in Thailand this bad, I guess their countries (like Italy in BAF's case) must be a complete sh*thole.

your post is too lopsided Goon and misses something quite important. a number of us would prefer to live in our home (or some other) country where we enjoy a much better infrastructure, less hassles and more rights. however, it is only the bottom line that counts and the sum of pros and cons differs considerably based on individual expectations/demands.

in my personal case the decision to "reside" in Thailand is based solely on one major factor and that is that the taxman in my home country would demand nearly half of my worldwide income plus a share of any capital gains and secondly that i am able to lead a quite luxurious life by spending a rather "modest" amount which is virtually impossible in an industrialized and "advanced" country.

i have never been bitching about Thailand although there are a lot of small things which irritate me, sometimes on a daily basis. i don't f**king care whether farangs are welcome in Thailand or not, neither do i care whether Thais are friendly to me or not, nor do i care whether "Thailand's economy is down as i have never seen it before" or how many low level farangs misbehave in some of Pattaya's bars, restaurants and/or public places.

Edited June 9, 2007 by Dr. Naam

[brahmburgers]

Just on the one topic of dowries: The going rate for a dowry in Issan is 1 mllion baht upwards, and how many girls' families, just from Issan province alone, get a fat dowry paid by farang every year? You won't find those dollar amounts in gov't statistics. Plus, there are the inevitable on-going amounts paid to the wife and her family and often there's properties bought in the wife's name that are left to her if the couple splits up (which happens more often than not). This all may sound off-topic, but the point is there's tens of billions of baht annually of outside money that gets infused in to the Thai economy that is not acknowledged by the Bangkok bean counters - that comes from farang - tourists and unofficial residents.

That interesting my isaan young brother in law just paid 40,000 baht. He must have got a bargain!!

Perhaps I should have said "the asking rate for a dowry is 1 million baht." That's based on recent personal experience, courting two Issan ladies. I said 'mai dai' so things didn't progress much further. I hear thru the grapevine that farang (especially elder, retired) are eagerly paying 2 to 5 million per dowry. As with any market, as word gets around (and you can bet it does among elligable ladies, their siblings and their families) so too asking prices get ratcheted up accordingly.

On the general topic of 'How Much Outside Revenue Do Farang Bring in to Thailand Annually." Obviously there are many ways to gauge such numbers and it will be rare for any two people to agree. Even so I've jotted down some numbers for the heck of it (in US$): Basically, there are two types of foreigners who come to Thailand

1. short term (tourists, conventioners, stop-overs etc) estimated 5 million per year come here. Let's say they average a conservative $1,000 per visitor (not counting airfare, which they probably buy overseas). Annual estimated total = $5 billion

2. long-term farang, Estimated 100,000. Each might spend an average of $750/month $75 million

That number jumps easily doubles when one considers non-monthly expenses such as business start-ups, property purchases, and dowries, to give an approx annual sum of $150 million.

Taking those numbers together (and yes, everyone will have alternative opinions) = roughly $5.15 billion dollars or 180 billion baht annually gets brought in from outside to course through the Thai economy. That's doesn't take in to account the billions the Shinawatre's took out of Thailand. How does Bt.180 billion compare to proceeds from selling rice?

Yes, your Issan Bro-in-law got a bargain at 40,000. Sounds like he's a local boy (which helps in the equation) maybe his bride to be has a hairlip and is shaped like a water jug. (poot talok).

Edited June 9, 2007 by brahmburgers

[meadish_sweetball]

There is 90% more paper work and a lot more money involved in getting a visa to the USA than there is for Thailand.

A huge number of poor people are trying to get into the USA and that is what the USA is trying to stop. This is because the USA does not want it's welfare programs to be any more over run than they already are.

Now do you want to compare the USA visa regs with thailand's some more ????

How many times has the regs changed in the last 8 years? How many times has thailands ??

The USA requires a family income of 125% of poverty level for you to bring your spouse to be a permanent resident and work in the USA? Also this can be supplemented by an affidavit of support by others. Thailand requires 40 times the poverty level and it has to be shown again every year.

The USA give 50,000 green cards per year in a lottery and the only requirement is a high school level education. No income requirement.

Sure it takes longer to get approved but once you are approved you are done except for having to convert your temporary green card to a permanent one after 2 years. How long do you have to wait for your extension based on marriage to be approved by bangkok when you apply from chaing mai ? About the same as it takes for your application to be approved by the USA. Thailand allows you to stay in thailand while you are waiting is the only difference. If I had to stay out of the country and wait for 6 months to be able to stay for the rest of my life with no hassles and no fear of the rules being changed I would gladly do it.

Good post. People are always commenting how hard it is to get a visa to the US, but they don't mention the huge problem that there is with illegal aliens in the country(more than 10,000,000 at least), and that there are hordes more lining up to come in. However, once you pass, you get aheck of a lot more than here. I have known many people who get tourist visas to the US that are ten year multiple reentry. Wouldn't it be nice to get one like that for Thailand?

If you get married to a US citizen or have kids in country, you don't have to muddle through all the costs and visa application nonsense that you get in Thailand, and you're on the track for green card and citizenship.

Do not forget Thailand also has poorer neighbours knocking on the door - people for whom working illegally for 2000-3000 baht per month is a better option than staying than where they were born. The number of illegal Burmese nationals and paperless hill tribe people with unknown national origin is staggering.

When it comes to Westerners, it is true Thailand shows very clearly that the ability to support yourself a fair bit above the average Thai is a requirement - but it is also true that most Westerners have had opportunities in life that far exceeds those of the average Thai, and should be able to use them for something constructive. I do feel sorry for the people who managed to stay under the radar living what they thought was a good life in the countryside on just a few thousand baht per month though. I also sympathize with small business owners fully able to support themselves but not in need of or not able to afford paying for additional Thais to run their businesses.

So there are definitely some points in the system that could be improved. And obviously, more consistency would be great.

In particular, you really have to wonder about the present situation where different embassies and consulates apply different requirements for the same type of visa, yet a visa from an 'easy' consulate or embassy is worth the same as a visa from a difficult one.

Why make people travel all the way to Australia, the UK or the US to be sure of getting the visa they want?

Either bring the easy ones back in line, or rather - make sure the requirements they apply are also available in KL, Penang, Vientiane, Phnomh Penh, Hanoi, Myanmar, Singapore and Hong Kong. Does it benefit Thailand in general to sponsor the airline business with 20 000 extra baht, or the tourism sectors in the English-speaking countries?

That being said, Samran's explanation of what the authorities are thinking I feel is much more to the point than the mumblings of 'anti foreigner' feelings.

Most Thais are indeed nationalists, but I have also felt most are willing to accept foreigners who make an effort to live here while respecting Thai customs. Obviously less so in the places where foreigners are starting to make up the majority and demand Thais conform to them instead of the other way around, but there is nothing strange about that, is there?

If you look back at where you came from, does the same not also hold true for those places where there is a large foreigner presence? It just does not make for a particularly nice environment.

It sometimes seems the people who complain the most are people who are not interested in conforming, and mostly spend their time with farang friends in farang environments. It reminds me of the immigrant enclaves back home where false rumours and speculations about the host culture abound just because the people living there never bother to learn the language or actually try the new culture they find themselves in - because they view it as perverted or inferior.

It is tough to integrate, but I think it is a fair requirement of any country to demand of people wishing to live there that they do make a serious effort to do so.

[wolfmanjack]

Why would you use social security which is or was designed to be a supplement to pensions and

the likes. Yes many do end up on social security only, but they are not the average class retirement

wages. About double social security would be closer to average.

Wolf, I don't have problems with people who have legitimate complaints about Thailand or visa regualtions, but I have to say that it's pretty hard for me to tell what's a truth or what's a fiction in most of their (your) stories. Sometimes people just over exaggerated their problems (or their contributions to Thailand). So I don't really know what to believe. That's why I've been just mostly reading in this thread.

As for the sh*thole comment, it was definitely not targeted at you or the USA.

thank you for clarifying that. I have to agree with you that some of the posters probably exaggerate on the amount of money they bring into the country. I think that most of them that claim 100,000 baht per month or less are not exaggerating too much though and based on the money multiplier affect that 100,000 brought in from another country represents around 1 million or more to the economy.

So lets say that simplified visa regs could bring 100,000 retirees to the Chiang Mai are. Based on the # of North Americans retiring in Central and south america this is not unreasonable to assume the number could be much more. Lest say that the financial is only 30,000 per retiree which is the national average in the USA for social security. This would mean 3,000,000,000 baht in monthly income from abroad. With the money multiplier of 10 (probably higher for thailand) this would mean 30,000,000 baht to the local economy. That is a lot of jobs.

I used social security because most working class people are getting social security and no pension. Also this is the group of people that do not make enough money to live a good life in the USA but could do so in thailand on that amount. Many like my parents bought homes instead of investing in a retirement fund. Now that they are retired the real estate taxes are eating up most of their social security so they are selling their home to build another further out of town. These people could ( if the thai law allowed) sell their homes in the USA and buy one here. Then live the rest of their lives in a much better style than they could at home benefiting both thailand and themselves. This type of setup could bring billions of baht into the thai economy which would generate taxes to improve the education and infrastructure.

[wolfmanjack]

Can we leave the sinsot and dowry discussions out of it? too many people get riled up when discussing it and get the thread closed.

Thank You.

Meadish,

the point about the illegal aliens in the USA is that many of them end up on welfare and that is why the USA has an affidavit of support as a requirement for a immigrant visa. It is assumed that when a person immigrates to the USA they will be getting a job in the USA and will be able to support themselves. Thailand does not have such a welfare program for the illegal aliens to take advantage of. In any case the illegal aliens under an easier visa program would still be illegal since they can not even come up with the visa fees we are suggesting.

Edited June 9, 2007 by wolfmanjack

[vermin on arrival]

It sometimes seems the people who complain the most are people who are not interested in conforming, and mostly spend their time with farang friends in farang environments. It reminds me of the immigrant enclaves back home where false rumours and speculations about the host culture abound just because the people living there never bother to learn the language or actually try the new culture they find themselves in - because they view it as perverted or inferior.

It is tough to integrate, but I think it is a fair requirement of any country to demand of people wishing to live there that they do make a serious effort to do so.

I don't think this is a fair comment, and I think you are making some serious assumptions about the people here who disgree with you. I can speak Thai. I'm not fluent, but can manage all my daily activities without using English. I've been in Thailand for the last decade, and I certainly don't see Thai culture as perverted or inferior.

Since both JR and Brahmburghers live in the provinces, I'm almost certain that what you are saying doesn't apply to them. Would anyone else care to sound off on this?

Edited June 9, 2007 by vermin on arrival

[Mid]

Would anyone else care to sound off on this?

why give it the time of day ???

[vermin on arrival]

Do not forget Thailand also has poorer neighbours knocking on the door - people for whom working illegally for 2000-3000 baht per month is a better option than staying than where they were born. The number of illegal Burmese nationals and paperless hill tribe people with unknown national origin is staggering.

This is a fair comment, but I think the numbers which come to the US are greater and the number that wants to come in, not just over the borders, but from most countries in the world is also probably much greater. Certainly the US is a much bigger country, and has much more space to accomodate the extra people and absorb them into the economy than Thailand does.

[meadish_sweetball]

It sometimes seems the people who complain the most are people who are not interested in conforming, and mostly spend their time with farang friends in farang environments. It reminds me of the immigrant enclaves back home where false rumours and speculations about the host culture abound just because the people living there never bother to learn the language or actually try the new culture they find themselves in - because they view it as perverted or inferior.

It is tough to integrate, but I think it is a fair requirement of any country to demand of people wishing to live there that they do make a serious effort to do so.

I don't think this is a fair comment, and I think you are making some serious assumptions about the people here who disgree with you. I can speak Thai. I'm not fluent, but can manage all my daily activities without using English. I've been in Thailand for the last decade, and I certainly don't see Thai culture as perverted or inferior.

Since both JR and Brahmburghers live in the provinces, I'm almost certain that what you are saying doesn't apply to them. Would anyone else care to sound off on this?

The quoted comment was not specifically directed at you or anybody else in this thread (apart from the final sentence about integration which I stand by 100%). The rest was a general observation based on my personal experiences in real life of people who complain about 'anti foreigner sentiments' without being willing to ransack their own behaviour and try to see it from other people's (in this case Thai people's) point of view.

I am sure there are exceptions - there always are. That is why I wrote 'it sometimes seems as if' and not stated it as an undeniable fact.

[meadish_sweetball]

the point about the illegal aliens in the USA is that many of them end up on welfare and that is why the USA has an affidavit of support as a requirement for a immigrant visa. It is assumed that when a person immigrates to the USA they will be getting a job in the USA and will be able to support themselves. Thailand does not have such a welfare program for the illegal aliens to take advantage of.

That is true, but extremely poor people are still more likely to be a liability even when they do not rely on state welfare. Who takes care of them when they experience accidents or become sick?

[wolfmanjack]

the point about the illegal aliens in the USA is that many of them end up on welfare and that is why the USA has an affidavit of support as a requirement for a immigrant visa. It is assumed that when a person immigrates to the USA they will be getting a job in the USA and will be able to support themselves. Thailand does not have such a welfare program for the illegal aliens to take advantage of.

That is true, but extremely poor people are still more likely to be a liability even when they do not rely on state welfare. Who takes care of them when they experience accidents or become sick?

I don't know who takes care of them. that is what i was trying to find out by asking what welfare programs they have here in thailand. I heard that the gov will pay to cremate the body and that is it. This may not even be true as far as I know.

[samran]

the point about the illegal aliens in the USA is that many of them end up on welfare and that is why the USA has an affidavit of support as a requirement for a immigrant visa. It is assumed that when a person immigrates to the USA they will be getting a job in the USA and will be able to support themselves. Thailand does not have such a welfare program for the illegal aliens to take advantage of.

That is true, but extremely poor people are still more likely to be a liability even when they do not rely on state welfare. Who takes care of them when they experience accidents or become sick?

I don't know who takes care of them. that is what i was trying to find out by asking what welfare programs they have here in thailand. I heard that the gov will pay to cremate the body and that is it. This may not even be true as far as I know.

i made the point that the RTG becomes supporter of last resort, and I stand by that. Medical is the obvious one and at state hospitals (which are subsidised).

While there aren't 'traditional' welfare payments (ie unempolyment benefits, free schooling) here, I think the point must be made that these things, where they do exist, aren't usually made available to illegal immigrants or non residents either (State schools in the US a notable exception I beleive). Refugees yes (or those having their cases assesed like in the UK), but in the main, illegal immigrants or non-residents, no.

Where the Thai government 'pays' is for all the things we don't think about. Water, electricity, infrastructure usage, all of these things to a large extent are subsidised in Thailand, and people can free ride off them. You don't see these things in your bill.

In the case of poor Thai citizens, thats the governements responsibilty to help look after them, but outsiders in my opinion (and I think form a common sense perspective), should be made to pay their way - directly and indirectly. This is either living here and working (creating economic value), paying income tax and VAT, or spending a sufficient amount (not just a minimal amount) so that your usuage of these services are effectively covered by VAT payments and spending....and even then, it usually isn't enough.

I think the key point that people tend to forget is in the west, where governments have formalised immigratoin systems, they are targeted primarily at migrants who will contribute economically. This doesn't mean just those who spend money, it means those who work, pay income tax, and create value for the economy by working in productive, often highly skilled jobs. Even the humble illegal in the US is of economic value. Apart from doing jobs that others don't want to do, their low wages help keep inflation down across the economy. Get rid of them, and the price shocks that would flow through the supply chain in the US would be pretty severe IMOH.

When I say that certain section of expats over estimate their value to Thai society, I think they do. If the RTG wanted retiree's and non working people (for example) to pay their way to cover the costs that reflect the true cost of their presence in Thailand, then I think the income requirements would be much higher than you see now.

[bendix]

The wife and I have been living in Thailand on a retirement visa for 4 years and have had no problems . I think the ones leaving are the ones sitting on a bar stool talking about whats wrong and then agreeing with each other rather than finding out what is really legal or not. Have a Great Thai day

This is probably the wisest post on this entire thread, a thread, incidentally, riddled with hearsay and inaccuracies presented as facts.

Example, first we hear of a new requirement for businesses to make 1 million baht, then the poster amends it to 1m capital.

On another thread, we hear about the end of the tourist visa, then it appears his heavily tattooed mate has been turned down for a fourth successive tourist visa when it's blatantly obvious he's living here and is NOT a tourist.

On this thread a teacher earning 20,000 a month and his nurse wife earning 18,000 are presented as victims because they don't meet the 40,000 marriage visa income requirement, blatantly ignoring the fact that teachers are exempt from the minimum wage requirement to renew work permits.

It's really not that hard to work how legal ways to stay and to contribute to this country we all profess to love, if that is what we want to do.

[A_Traveller]

Example, first we hear of a new requirement for businesses to make 1 million baht, then the poster amends it to 1m capital.

My understanding is that the immigration authorities are asking questions if the company is not generating a sufficient profit to cover the foreigner's income stream.

Regards

[The Dan Sai Kid]

EDIT: life's too short!

Edited June 9, 2007 by The Dan Sai Kid

[wolfmanjack]

the point about the illegal aliens in the USA is that many of them end up on welfare and that is why the USA has an affidavit of support as a requirement for a immigrant visa. It is assumed that when a person immigrates to the USA they will be getting a job in the USA and will be able to support themselves. Thailand does not have such a welfare program for the illegal aliens to take advantage of.

That is true, but extremely poor people are still more likely to be a liability even when they do not rely on state welfare. Who takes care of them when they experience accidents or become sick?

I don't know who takes care of them. that is what i was trying to find out by asking what welfare programs they have here in thailand. I heard that the gov will pay to cremate the body and that is it. This may not even be true as far as I know.

i made the point that the RTG becomes supporter of last resort, and I stand by that. Medical is the obvious one and at state hospitals (which are subsidised).

While there aren't 'traditional' welfare payments (ie unempolyment benefits, free schooling) here, I think the point must be made that these things, where they do exist, aren't usually made available to illegal immigrants or non residents either (State schools in the US a notable exception I beleive). Refugees yes (or those having their cases assesed like in the UK), but in the main, illegal immigrants or non-residents, no.

Where the Thai government 'pays' is for all the things we don't think about. Water, electricity, infrastructure usage, all of these things to a large extent are subsidized in Thailand, and people can free ride off them. You don't see these things in your bill.

In the case of poor Thai citizens, thats the governements responsibilty to help look after them, but outsiders in my opinion (and I think form a common sense perspective), should be made to pay their way - directly and indirectly. This is either living here and working (creating economic value), paying income tax and VAT, or spending a sufficient amount (not just a minimal amount) so that your usuage of these services are effectively covered by VAT payments and spending....and even then, it usually isn't enough.

I think the key point that people tend to forget is in the west, where governments have formalised immigratoin systems, they are targeted primarily at migrants who will contribute economically. This doesn't mean just those who spend money, it means those who work, pay income tax, and create value for the economy by working in productive, often highly skilled jobs. Even the humble illegal in the US is of economic value. Apart from doing jobs that others don't want to do, their low wages help keep inflation down across the economy. Get rid of them, and the price shocks that would flow through the supply chain in the US would be pretty severe IMOH.

When I say that certain section of expats over estimate their value to Thai society, I think they do. If the RTG wanted retiree's and non working people (for example) to pay their way to cover the costs that reflect the true cost of their presence in Thailand, then I think the income requirements would be much higher than you see now.

thank you for your explanation. many of us were truly wondering. I did not know that the RTG would pay for the hospital bill of a poor falang or illegal. i also did not know that the utilities were subsidized to that extent by the RTG. I knew that diesel was but am under the impression that ended some time ago.

I do believe you are forgetting about the jobs created by the amount that expats spend here. Every baht brought into the country represents 10 baht in the economy or more in my estimation. Just my opinion.

[A_Traveller]

I do believe you are forgetting about the jobs created by the amount that expats spend here. Every baht brought into the country represents 10 baht in the economy or more in my estimation. Just my opinion.

There is economic truth to this, since the Kingdom runs a fractional reserve banking system,which whilst the exact multiplier is closely held, as in the US for example, I would view a 1 to 9 ratio about right.

Regards