Thai Higher-ups Want To Cull Out Undesirables -

[soundman]

6% of GDP is still a lot of money in any language.... On a rough calculation that would be about 400 Billion Baht or a little under 10 Billion Dollars.

Not a market that I'd want to piss off.

Soundman.

I don't see how they have. They haven't restricted countries who are eligible for 30- entry. 60-day tourist visas are still available.

The majoirty of that 6% of GDP (ie 5.99%) would be from legitimate tourists here on an average 12 day holiday.

The latest changes do not affect them one iota.

Amazing the low opinion many people have of policy makers they've never met.

Where in my post did I make mention that there are any notable changes that will affect the "12 day tourist"?

AFAIK nothing has changed for the "once a year, visa exempt tourist"......

I don't think I offered any opinion at all as to policy on visa exemption, or on the policy makers themselves.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[KhunLing]

That's 40k SPLIT between 2 adults .... 20k each ... not crazy at all!

Maybe not in BKK...but it IS a lot in most places.

I have a friend in Chiang Rai who is married to a nurse. He gets 20 000 teaching, she makes 12 000.

They 'fail' the 40 000 test. A teacher and a nurse "aren't the types of people Thailand want"?

[samran]

no you haven't, aplogies.

[Edonista]

I'm confused. It happens sometimes.

What, exactly, is wrong with the proposition that - to use the OPs own words - the Thai Higher-Ups wanting to cull 'undesirables'.

Sounds like exactly the right thing to do. What should they be doing - welcoming undesirables with a red carpet?

Does anyone else see the delicious irony in a poster calling himself 'vermin on arrival' complaining about immigration policies?

The problem is Thai Immigration considers "undesirables" people that should be considered the opposite. And "Vermin" does not consider himself as such, but picked up that nickname after been treated like one by Immigration officers.

Edited June 8, 2007 by Edonista

[Edonista]

How long is it before someone comes up with the classic line: "Thailand needs farangs to survive economically"?

It indeed does. Just watch what happened in these months following the land and visa shake up. Saha Group, the largest Thai conglomerate, has declared its sales are shrinking, and it is the first time such a thing happens in 60 years.

And this is just the beginning, as the farang relocation is still in progress.

Edited June 8, 2007 by Edonista

[JR Texas]

How long is it before someone comes up with the classic line: "Thailand needs farangs to survive economically"?

Oh okay then , if you really insist :Thailand needs farangs to survive economically.

My opinion hasn't changed since last august (and the first signs of some real changes).

-There is a plan

-This plan is global = not only about visas.

-The aim is to reduce the number of foreigners living permanently in Thailand, and to reduce the foreign influences on thai economy and thai society.

-This plan is absolutly not linked to one political party : it has started under Thaksin, it continues full speed with the junta. We can assume that the aim of this plan is shared by the ruling elite. Therefore, it won't change any time soon (I say that to those who believe to the magic stick motto : "after elections, everything will return to normal").

-I don't buy at all the idea that because TIT syndrome, rules are changing and can have different interpretations, etc.

Actually this is part of the plan : to proceed step by step, silently, to create and to use confusion and uncertainty. It's the frog in hot water principle. The process will be slow, with steps back and forth, but the final target is clear.

You can review all the events, you'll see clearly the pattern.

-land ownerships via company scheme, first alerts in july and august 2006

-visa shake up (august and october 2006)

-currency manipulation and capital controls (december 2006)

-Foreign Business Act 2 (still pending at NLA)

-Retail Act (still pending at NLA)

For every subject, thai authorities use deception with their explainations : Visa ? "To protect against crime, national security, terrorists, pedophils, mafia" you name it etc.

FBA ? "It's because of the Shin scandal".

Retail Act ? "To protect our local shops and the way of living of many people".

Currency ? "To fight against speculation".

We could name this pattern : the chinese model. And it's all about control.

tourists, exports, economic growth = yes

foreign influences inside the country (population, economic, political, culture) and freedom (speech, politics, markets) = no

JR Texas to CCClub75: Brilliant post.......extremely insightful. Totally on target!

JR Texas to WolfmanJack and other people that want to show disrespect to the Great Nation of Texas: Shit fire (Texas for "now I am pissed"). Giddyup (that is my horse), time to saddle up (Texas lingo for "get my saddle and put it on the horse"). I'm gonna (Texas for "I am about to") put on my shit kickers (Texas lingo for "boots") and go pay some high falootin city folk (Texas for "people that do not use an outhouse") a visit and teach them a little Texas respect (Texas lingo meaning "beat the hel_l out of them").

Just kidding, of course.....not!.....yes, just kidding.....not!.....yes, just kidding :D

The Bad Bush is a northerner disguised as a southerner. Reminds me of a turd in a bowl that somebody forgot to flush. But LBJ......well........I must admit that was a big Texas mistake.

[Edonista]

Well,most of you have a good point.But the thing about the 40k,if you compare that with the average income of a Thai family, and what they ask us to make is a big ,what I say a huge difference.Some can argue that in my homecountry they will ask more,if you say that in comparison I will have to make a triple or quadruple what an average income (in my home country)makes?I not think so,an average income will do(to have a foreign wife come over).So that means lets say 15k in comparison in Thailand will do.Allright maybe they can raise it a bid ,but more that 25k they cannot ask.Also I am really confused about what kind of work I can do,cause almost everything is restricted,and I am not educated on a level that they prefer,and also that is different in my homecountry,the spouse can work everything she wants too.Some may say,why not go back then,well the wife does not like it over there,is cold and hasa lot of grudgy people(Holland).I find it very hard to make 40k,we do not make it,at least for now I do not know how to do it.

But I just want to make a point with how the things really seem to be like for one, can be a different pair of shoes for the other ,it is not that easy.And to make a comparison with 'Farang' there home countries is ridiculous,do not forget it is a third world country here,so be careful what to quote.

That's 40k SPLIT between 2 adults .... 20k each ... not crazy at all!

The average salary in Thailand is 7,000 baht/month. So even assuming the wife can find a job , the farang husband has to find another one paying 33,000 baht, that is almost 5 times the average salary.

Let's face it, the 40,000 baht monthly income requirement is just a way to force farang husbands to fake a domestic income and cash taxes and fees on it.

[ThaiGoon]

Saha group lost in sales for the first time because the undesirables can't get proper visas to stay in Thailand?

And JRTexas, what a surprise. You agreed wholeheartedly with cclub7.

Edited June 8, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[jdinasia]

Well,most of you have a good point.But the thing about the 40k,if you compare that with the average income of a Thai family, and what they ask us to make is a big ,what I say a huge difference.Some can argue that in my homecountry they will ask more,if you say that in comparison I will have to make a triple or quadruple what an average income (in my home country)makes?I not think so,an average income will do(to have a foreign wife come over).So that means lets say 15k in comparison in Thailand will do.Allright maybe they can raise it a bid ,but more that 25k they cannot ask.Also I am really confused about what kind of work I can do,cause almost everything is restricted,and I am not educated on a level that they prefer,and also that is different in my homecountry,the spouse can work everything she wants too.Some may say,why not go back then,well the wife does not like it over there,is cold and hasa lot of grudgy people(Holland).I find it very hard to make 40k,we do not make it,at least for now I do not know how to do it.

But I just want to make a point with how the things really seem to be like for one, can be a different pair of shoes for the other ,it is not that easy.And to make a comparison with 'Farang' there home countries is ridiculous,do not forget it is a third world country here,so be careful what to quote.

That's 40k SPLIT between 2 adults .... 20k each ... not crazy at all!

The average salary in Thailand is 7,000 baht/month. So even assuming the wife can find a job , the farang husband has to find another one paying 33,000 baht, that is almost 5 times the average salary.

Let's face it, the 40,000 baht monthly income requirement is just a way to force farang husbands to fake a domestic income and cash taxes and fees on it.

I would think that the average farang .... hel_l even the below average farang would not be thinking about averages for Thais when it comes to income Particularly when that covers all income sources/types for Thais.

Again ... if you can't manage the 40k a month income split between 2 people there's always the 90 day border run options and a new visa annually.

hmmm the Thais might want income tax? wow! there's a stretch! How long ago was it that we needed tax clearances to leave Thailand?

[samran]

I'm confused. It happens sometimes.

What, exactly, is wrong with the proposition that - to use the OPs own words - the Thai Higher-Ups wanting to cull 'undesirables'.

Sounds like exactly the right thing to do. What should they be doing - welcoming undesirables with a red carpet?

Does anyone else see the delicious irony in a poster calling himself 'vermin on arrival' complaining about immigration policies?

The problem is Thai Immigration considers "undesirables" people that should be considered the opposite. And "Vermin" does not consider himself as such, but picked up that nickname after been treated like one by Immigration officers.

Being treaded like vermin on arival is par for the course most places I've been. Even Australia, where I hold a passport and theoretically authorities have no right to stop me entering - I'm treaded like crap most times I enter. To be fair, I hate it being pulled aside before boarding my place (Aus immigration are present at Suvanapoom, usually at the gate see this link), I hate it when on arrival in Australia being questioned as to my reasons for being in Thailand when they are zapping my passport. I hate it that I never make it past the rugby scrum of immigration officials that stand 10 meters just behind the immigration counter (after your passport has been zapped) where they take your passport away and check it again, and ask the same questions again. I hate it when at the baggage pick up a plain clothed officer will wonder up and ask to see my travel documents.....<deleted>? (of course, if I arrive with my blond wife and blond baby...then all these things never happen...of course).

To be honest, landing at Heathrow as an Australian is easier these days. You get taken thrugh the wringer once, not four seperate times.

I used to take it personally, but now it is just tiresome.

Even Thailand, where I hold a passport as well, I've noticed that in the past year they are actually questioning me as to who I am, what I do, general checks of identity are becoming more common. The where were you born, what are you doing here routine is more common, at least for me. Trying to catch me out.

I think you are right that we shouldn't be making judgement calls as to who is desirable, but at the same time to be very fair, the world doesn't work that way. I think with the change in the visa rules has given rise to officers actually checking that the intention of stay matches with the visa they are (about) to grant you. Regular 30 day stamps into Thailand, I'm sure, would raise alarm bells that the person entering is doing so under false pretences...so additional questions are asked.

As for long stayers, the question is always going to be a tough one especially in the case of families. There are always going to be people who don't make the cut. The Thai authorities have set a basic bar - 40K per month/per family . No doubt that bar is higher than what they typical Thai family may earn, especially in rural areas, but at the same time, frankly the risk to the Thai government is higher as well in terms of prenting sham marriages for the purpose of staying, the RTG needs to ensure that the person is in a position to support themselves (otherwise they would become a burden to soceity in some way). This is in addition to what I've said about Thailand being a society where all people are registerd in some way shape or form (in a way which extends beyond putting 'nana hotel' on the arrivals card).

But I also think it is wrong to point to the visa rules per se as the cause for doom and gloom. People are going to struggle here regardless if they have an income less than 40K IMHO. That is just a basic economic fact of life and as Thailand develops (which it is) it is going to become increasing difficult to.

I get the feeling many posters are saying "the visa rules make it tough for me to stay here". Well frankly it isn't the visa rules for the most part. From what I've seen people who stuggle are usually incompatable with the job market here. Even if the rules mentioned nothing about an income requirement, I think the same people who are struggling now would still be struggling from an income perspective, and would be looking to home to find a way to support the family.

[ProfessorNiceGuy]

Sounds like a few desperado's to me. There are good jobs to be had with good salaries if you have the right back ground and skill sets. If you cant earn 40 k upwards, maybe time to take a good look at your self rather than laying the blame on immigration which is always easy.

Thailand is quite liberal with immigration, never heard a peep from them. Always been nice and polite to me.

If your getting the once over, maybe there is reason ?

[jdinasia]

That's 40k SPLIT between 2 adults .... 20k each ... not crazy at all!

Maybe not in BKK...but it IS a lot in most places.

I have a friend in Chiang Rai who is married to a nurse. He gets 20 000 teaching, she makes 12 000.

They 'fail' the 40 000 test. A teacher and a nurse "aren't the types of people Thailand want"?

they pass the work permit extension test though right? teachers are exempt from the minimum salary requirement for foriegners are they not? So no problem that I can see

[Khun ?]

Just be thankful they will not be back home competing with the illegals for work at Mac Donalds

and the likes paying about 40K baht a month with all you can eat benefits.

[Firefan]

I shake my head everytime somebody compare with a 6-7000 Baht Thai salary.

They mostly have no rent(live w. family), no need for homeleaves, no high telephone/internet costs, no visa costs/visarun costs, no desire for foreign food, often don't use aircons, do not use private international health insurance (as 30 baht scheme or family cover), can easily understand/use bus net work, buy most at local market Etc. Etc.

I admire people who can live here(rarely BKK though) for 20k Baht/mth or less - while MANY (mostly singles) manage just fine on English teacher salaries in the 30-40k range.

SO based on above 40k/mth for a family seems like a resonable starting point for emmigration.

Cheers!

[Khun ?]

I agree whole heartedly

competition was getting to rough for them back home at Testco, Woolworths and Walmart.

Start out pay must be close to 50K baht for a full time position.

Better to run off to Disneyland where your average monthly family income would be comparable to a couple days work in poverty back home.

I shake my head everytime somebody compare with a 6-7000 Baht Thai salary.

They mostly have no rent(live w. family), no need for homeleaves, no high telephone/internet costs, no visa costs/visarun costs, no desire for foreign food, often don't use aircons, do not use private international health insurance (as 30 baht scheme or family cover), can easily understand/use bus net work, buy most at local market Etc. Etc.

I admire people who can live here(rarely BKK though) for 20k Baht/mth or less - while MANY (mostly singles) manage just fine on English teacher salaries in the 30-40k range.

SO based on above 40k/mth for a family seems like a resonable starting point for emmigration.

Cheers!

[vermin on arrival]

I'm confused. It happens sometimes.

What, exactly, is wrong with the proposition that - to use the OPs own words - the Thai Higher-Ups wanting to cull 'undesirables'.

Sounds like exactly the right thing to do. What should they be doing - welcoming undesirables with a red carpet?

Does anyone else see the delicious irony in a poster calling himself 'vermin on arrival' complaining about immigration policies?

The problem is Thai Immigration considers "undesirables" people that should be considered the opposite. And "Vermin" does not consider himself as such, but picked up that nickname after been treated like one by Immigration officers.

Thank you Edonista. I see you read my first post on the forum.

[wolfmanjack]

How long is it before someone comes up with the classic line: "Thailand needs farangs to survive economically"?

Oh okay then , if you really insist :Thailand needs farangs to survive economically.

My opinion hasn't changed since last august (and the first signs of some real changes).

-There is a plan

-This plan is global = not only about visas.

-The aim is to reduce the number of foreigners living permanently in Thailand, and to reduce the foreign influences on thai economy and thai society.

-This plan is absolutly not linked to one political party : it has started under Thaksin, it continues full speed with the junta. We can assume that the aim of this plan is shared by the ruling elite. Therefore, it won't change any time soon (I say that to those who believe to the magic stick motto : "after elections, everything will return to normal").

-I don't buy at all the idea that because TIT syndrome, rules are changing and can have different interpretations, etc.

Actually this is part of the plan : to proceed step by step, silently, to create and to use confusion and uncertainty. It's the frog in hot water principle. The process will be slow, with steps back and forth, but the final target is clear.

You can review all the events, you'll see clearly the pattern.

-land ownerships via company scheme, first alerts in july and august 2006

-visa shake up (august and october 2006)

-currency manipulation and capital controls (december 2006)

-Foreign Business Act 2 (still pending at NLA)

-Retail Act (still pending at NLA)

For every subject, thai authorities use deception with their explainations : Visa ? "To protect against crime, national security, terrorists, pedophils, mafia" you name it etc.

FBA ? "It's because of the Shin scandal".

Retail Act ? "To protect our local shops and the way of living of many people".

Currency ? "To fight against speculation".

We could name this pattern : the chinese model. And it's all about control.

tourists, exports, economic growth = yes

foreign influences inside the country (population, economic, political, culture) and freedom (speech, politics, markets) = no

JR Texas to CCClub75: Brilliant post.......extremely insightful. Totally on target!

JR Texas to WolfmanJack and other people that want to show disrespect to the Great Nation of Texas: Shit fire (Texas for "now I am pissed"). Giddyup (that is my horse), time to saddle up (Texas lingo for "get my saddle and put it on the horse"). I'm gonna (Texas for "I am about to") put on my shit kickers (Texas lingo for "boots") and go pay some high falootin city folk (Texas for "people that do not use an outhouse") a visit and teach them a little Texas respect (Texas lingo meaning "beat the hel_l out of them").

Just kidding, of course.....not!.....yes, just kidding.....not!.....yes, just kidding :D

The Bad Bush is a northerner disguised as a southerner. Reminds me of a turd in a bowl that somebody forgot to flush. But LBJ......well........I must admit that was a big Texas mistake.

Texas isn't the only state that the people wear shit kickers you know or call boots that. Or use them on city slickers to do a little stompin.

Our steers don't have such long horns but they do have horns.

Check out all of the other states that run along the rocky mountains and you will find the rest of us. You were just born in the wrong place and must have been educated somewhere other than texas cause your advice is too level headed to come from a Texan. Sure there isn't a northerner in the wood pile somewhere ??

[chuchok]

But I also think it is wrong to point to the visa rules per se as the cause for doom and gloom. People are going to struggle here regardless if they have an income less than 40K IMHO. That is just a basic economic fact of life and as Thailand develops (which it is) it is going to become increasing difficult to.

I struggle to spend 40K a month here and it's not because I havn't got the money either.Min wage in NZ is NZD$11.25/hour.Roughly THB44000/ month before tax.

[vermin on arrival]

Being treaded like vermin on arival is par for the course most places I've been. Even Australia, where I hold a passport and theoretically authorities have no right to stop me entering - I'm treaded like crap most times I enter. To be fair, I hate it being pulled aside before boarding my place (Aus immigration are present at Suvanapoom, usually at the gate see this link), I hate it when on arrival in Australia being questioned as to my reasons for being in Thailand when they are zapping my passport. I hate it that I never make it past the rugby scrum of immigration officials that stand 10 meters just behind the immigration counter (after your passport has been zapped) where they take your passport away and check it again, and ask the same questions again. I hate it when at the baggage pick up a plain clothed officer will wonder up and ask to see my travel documents.....<deleted>? (of course, if I arrive with my blond wife and blond baby...then all these things never happen...of course).

Good point Samran. I get the same when I'm entering the US, especially bad the last two times I've been; I wasn't sure if it was related to the John Mark Carr thing or not. At first I thought it was for single men who live in Thailand, but then it also happened to a friend of mine who works in Taiwan and Korea, and then I heard it happen to a Taiwanese family I know who have US citizenship, but live and work in Taiwan(wife, husband and child). The US were never very keen on expats and seems to like them even less now.

At least I'm treated better on my entances elsewhere even if the officials never smile. It is ironic that it happens in the two places I really call home.

I still do agree with the people on the board who think this is deliberately an attempt to remove the majority of long stay foreigners in Thailand.

[Gary A]

Since I pay no rent, I can EASILY live quite well here for 30,000 baht per month. Why I have to verify 65,000 per month is beyond my comprehension. I have absolutely no control as to why the Thai government demands this. That said, Thailand is my home, BUT my home was in the US before and could be again. If and when I am convinced that I'm not wanted here, I will pack my bags. I have NEVER spent more here than I can afford to walk away from.

[jdinasia]

Since I pay no rent, I can EASILY live quite well here for 30,000 baht per month. Why I have to verify 65,000 per month is beyond my comprehension. I have absolutely no control as to why the Thai government demands this. That said, Thailand is my home, BUT my home was in the US before and could be again. If and when I am convinced that I'm not wanted here, I will pack my bags. I have NEVER spent more here than I can afford to walk away from.

There are other ways Gary .... you don't have to spend your 65K ... just prove you have it .... and after all that is a retirement visa .... medical costs can skyrocket as you get older

[chuchok]

Since I pay no rent, I can EASILY live quite well here for 30,000 baht per month. Why I have to verify 65,000 per month is beyond my comprehension. I have absolutely no control as to why the Thai government demands this. That said, Thailand is my home, BUT my home was in the US before and could be again. If and when I am convinced that I'm not wanted here, I will pack my bags. I have NEVER spent more here than I can afford to walk away from.

There are other ways Gary .... you don't have to spend your 65K ... just prove you have it .... and after all that is a retirement visa .... medical costs can skyrocket as you get older

Most people I know have medical insurance....

[jdinasia]

Since I pay no rent, I can EASILY live quite well here for 30,000 baht per month. Why I have to verify 65,000 per month is beyond my comprehension. I have absolutely no control as to why the Thai government demands this. That said, Thailand is my home, BUT my home was in the US before and could be again. If and when I am convinced that I'm not wanted here, I will pack my bags. I have NEVER spent more here than I can afford to walk away from.

There are other ways Gary .... you don't have to spend your 65K ... just prove you have it .... and after all that is a retirement visa .... medical costs can skyrocket as you get older

Most people I know have medical insurance....

Valid in Thailand? in the retirement age bracket? and still living under Gary's stated 30k a month?

[rogierbinnerts]

Strange. I have no problem obtaining a visa as i am maried to a Thai, and friends of mine have either a retirement visa or a business visa.

When going on holiday a visa is very easy too.

What is the problem?

Open your eyes and smell the coffee m8

[chuchok]

Since I pay no rent, I can EASILY live quite well here for 30,000 baht per month. Why I have to verify 65,000 per month is beyond my comprehension. I have absolutely no control as to why the Thai government demands this. That said, Thailand is my home, BUT my home was in the US before and could be again. If and when I am convinced that I'm not wanted here, I will pack my bags. I have NEVER spent more here than I can afford to walk away from.

There are other ways Gary .... you don't have to spend your 65K ... just prove you have it .... and after all that is a retirement visa .... medical costs can skyrocket as you get older

Most people I know have medical insurance....

Valid in Thailand? in the retirement age bracket? and still living under Gary's stated 30k a month?

Yep.

[Gary A]

Since I pay no rent, I can EASILY live quite well here for 30,000 baht per month. Why I have to verify 65,000 per month is beyond my comprehension. I have absolutely no control as to why the Thai government demands this. That said, Thailand is my home, BUT my home was in the US before and could be again. If and when I am convinced that I'm not wanted here, I will pack my bags. I have NEVER spent more here than I can afford to walk away from.

There are other ways Gary .... you don't have to spend your 65K ... just prove you have it .... and after all that is a retirement visa .... medical costs can skyrocket as you get older

Most people I know have medical insurance....

Valid in Thailand? in the retirement age bracket? and still living under Gary's stated 30k a month?

I have a retirement visa and a legal Thai wife. I have a condo and she has a home. I also have Thai health insurance. I made the post just to say that although I have no problem meeting the requirements, I certainly don't understand them.

[jdinasia]

I understand it Gary .... otherwise the list could be HUGE ...

so many qualifiers could be needed to screen just for ability to support oneself

[vermin on arrival]

Since I pay no rent, I can EASILY live quite well here for 30,000 baht per month. Why I have to verify 65,000 per month is beyond my comprehension. I have absolutely no control as to why the Thai government demands this. That said, Thailand is my home, BUT my home was in the US before and could be again. If and when I am convinced that I'm not wanted here, I will pack my bags. I have NEVER spent more here than I can afford to walk away from.

You live on 30,000 per month. I know others who live on much less than that and are happy. I really think that the financial requirements are inappropriate. The Thais are certainly within their rights to make them, but I do not agreee with them.

[samran]

Since I pay no rent, I can EASILY live quite well here for 30,000 baht per month. Why I have to verify 65,000 per month is beyond my comprehension. I have absolutely no control as to why the Thai government demands this. That said, Thailand is my home, BUT my home was in the US before and could be again. If and when I am convinced that I'm not wanted here, I will pack my bags. I have NEVER spent more here than I can afford to walk away from.

Gary,

fair point. And if I look at my budget, after rent, we are probably 40K for wifey and the little one for day to day things. Health insurance (which isn't included) is a stinker though and pushes things up. Neither is the savings we put away for the eventual schooling of the little one, or my and wifeys retirement fund. Or our mortgage repayments in OZ.

The fact remains however that people have to have the capacity to support themselves - which often goes beyond day to day expenditure - should the need arise. If that capacity isn't there, then in some way, shape or form, it is the Thai goverment which ulimately bears the burden.

[wolfmanjack]

Since I pay no rent, I can EASILY live quite well here for 30,000 baht per month. Why I have to verify 65,000 per month is beyond my comprehension. I have absolutely no control as to why the Thai government demands this. That said, Thailand is my home, BUT my home was in the US before and could be again. If and when I am convinced that I'm not wanted here, I will pack my bags. I have NEVER spent more here than I can afford to walk away from.

Gary,

fair point. And if I look at my budget, after rent, we are probably 40K for wifey and the little one for day to day things. Health insurance (which isn't included) is a stinker though and pushes things up. Neither is the savings we put away for the eventual schooling of the little one, or my and wifeys retirement fund. Or our mortgage repayments in OZ.

The fact remains however that people have to have the capacity to support themselves - which often goes beyond day to day expenditure - should the need arise. If that capacity isn't there, then in some way, shape or form, it is the Thai goverment which ulimately bears the burden.

I agree that people have to have the capacity to support themselves.

As far as the thai gov bearing the burden ????? Do they pay for the cremation of people that can't afford it or something ?? I have never heard of a welfare system here . Please inform me ?