"lazy" Thais...

[ColPyat]

http://www.bangkokpost.net/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=119308

Nearly half of Thai workers overwork

Nearly a century after adopting its first international standard on working time, a new study by the International Labour Office (ILO) estimates that one in five workers worldwide -- over 600 million persons -- stilll work more than 48 hours a week, often just to make ends meet.

Among the countries surveyed, Thailand ranks third with 46.7 per cent of workers putting in more than 48 hours every week.

Average working hours in manufacturing worldwide range between 35 to 45 hours per week, but are much longer in a number of developing countries, including Thailand -- the only country where the hours of work in manufacturing average over 59 per week.

[carnival1200]

http://www.bangkokpost.net/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=119308

Nearly half of Thai workers overwork

Nearly a century after adopting its first international standard on working time, a new study by the International Labour Office (ILO) estimates that one in five workers worldwide -- over 600 million persons -- stilll work more than 48 hours a week, often just to make ends meet.

Among the countries surveyed, Thailand ranks third with 46.7 per cent of workers putting in more than 48 hours every week.

Average working hours in manufacturing worldwide range between 35 to 45 hours per week, but are much longer in a number of developing countries, including Thailand -- the only country where the hours of work in manufacturing average over 59 per week.

I think it is pretty much a worldwide phenomanon (trend ).  It was reported in the Guardian this week (UK) that the average Brit was exausted due to over work.

Edited June 8, 2007 by carnival1200

[a2396]

It is sad so many have to put in such inordinate number of hours with "nose to the grindstone & shoulder to the wheel". Bringing up the level of education in the population might help more "working smarter, not harder" practices. Unfortunately, I don't see the government here falling all over themselves to make education & quality thereof a priority.

[naka]

So ... Sleeping on a washline is WORK ? ... Oh ! I see ... We are talking about the women ... Sorry !

Naka.

[steves_the_1]

but how much work is actually being done in them 59 hours a week?

[soundman]

It is sad so many have to put in such inordinate number of hours with "nose to the grindstone & shoulder to the wheel". Bringing up the level of education in the population might help more "working smarter, not harder" practices. Unfortunately, I don't see the government here falling all over themselves to make education & quality thereof a priority.

Just because someone is working a lot of hours doesn't really mean they are working hard, or smart. Quite often you'll be lucky if your staff member is working at all, especially when un-supervised.

I think the article is miss-leading because it does't mention actual productivity at all. Just ammunition for socialist workplace reform crusaders.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[ColPyat]

It is sad so many have to put in such inordinate number of hours with "nose to the grindstone & shoulder to the wheel". Bringing up the level of education in the population might help more "working smarter, not harder" practices. Unfortunately, I don't see the government here falling all over themselves to make education & quality thereof a priority.

Just because someone is working a lot of hours doesn't really mean they are working hard, or smart. Quite often you'll be lucky if your staff member is working at all, especially when un-supervised.

I think the article is miss-leading because it does't mention actual productivity at all. Just ammunition for socialist workplace reform crusaders.

Cheers,

Soundman.

I would have a look in the different manufacturing companies in the industrial zones. There is more than enough information available on the net about working conditions as well. I would suggest to google the infamous "Bed and Bath" case.

Socialist workplace crusaders? Well, in Thailand the number of unionized labors is about 3%. Unions leaders get regularly threatened and many got killed.

The present situation reminds more of the conditions under the industrial revolution in the west than anything modern. What we in the west now consider as normal conditions has been only achieved by so called "socialist workplace crusaders". Without them there would still be child labor, no sick pay, no insurance, no unemployment benefits, no pensions, etc.

[Mid]

quality v's quantity ,

déjà vu

[ColPyat]

but how much work is actually being done in them 59 hours a week?

It seems enough work is done to make Thailand one of the major regional manufacturing bases. What also helps of course is that only 3% of the labor force is unionized.

[Cuban]

....stilll work more than 48 hours a week, often just to make ends meet.

Yes, those paid an hourly rate may well extend the task to fill that availible paid hours and add a little overtime.

Paid by task and the work maybe done in less time. The problem is supervision, why do I have to spend MY time watching and "encouraging" task completion.

The solution is electric shock collars - but my OH will not allow me to fit them to her family members, hey I wanted them to wear them around there necks but their "members" might be a better option.

[pop_corn]

as Mid said bfore.. quality v's quantity.......i can go to work and do nothing for 8 hours a day, or i can work 5 and PRODUCE, something.

[uptou]

Just because someone is working a lot of hours doesn't really mean they are working hard, or smart. Quite often you'll be lucky if your staff member is working at all, especially when un-supervised.

I think the article is miss-leading because it does't mention actual productivity at all. Just ammunition for socialist workplace reform crusaders.

generally i would agree with this.i'm impressed at how quickly they get buildings up here but if you look on any building site here you would probably see 5 times as many people doing the same job as would be in the uk.also the heat comes into play.

i was surprised to read a few years ago that the spanish worked the longest hours in europe.

[soundman]

It seems enough work is done to make Thailand one of the major regional manufacturing bases. What also helps of course is that only 3% of the labor force is unionized.

I think you'll find that the reasonably productive work being done in the "factory zones" is due to imported management & western (not excluding japanese) management techniques. That & the ability to keep the unionization to a very small & limited section of the labour market, hence not more ammo. for the socialist crusaders wanted or needed.

But getting away from the large multi-national style companies, into the smaller SME size companies, who can't afford multiple layers of management & supervision, you'll find a mech less productive workforce.

Sometimes these smaller enterprises have to operate in carrot & donkey style fashion or occasionally pull out the cat-o-nine tails, to remain competative with larger firms in the same market.

I'm one of these smaller style enterprises - around 35 to 40 staff on the books. Take it straight from the horses mouth when I make comment about poor productivity in comparrison to actual hours worked. When I am quoting on a job I will approximate the number of hours to produce an item - then double it. This is often under estimating.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[soundman]

generally i would agree with this.i'm impressed at how quickly they get buildings up here but if you look on any building site here you would probably see 5 times as many people doing the same job as would be in the uk.also the heat comes into play.

i was surprised to read a few years ago that the spanish worked the longest hours in europe.

The labour component of most small buildings will be usually quoted as a flat fee, by a company that specialises in contract labour. Not hourly, daily or monthly - but job lot.

Therefore it is the labour companies interest (and the senior staff usually are in for a percentage pay of the job lot) to finish the building quickly.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[ColPyat]

It seems enough work is done to make Thailand one of the major regional manufacturing bases. What also helps of course is that only 3% of the labor force is unionized.

I think you'll find that the reasonably productive work being done in the "factory zones" is due to imported management & western (not excluding japanese) management techniques. That & the ability to keep the unionization to a very small & limited section of the labour market, hence not more ammo. for the socialist crusaders wanted or needed.

But getting away from the large multi-national style companies, into the smaller SME size companies, who can't afford multiple layers of management & supervision, you'll find a mech less productive workforce.

Sometimes these smaller enterprises have to operate in carrot & donkey style fashion or occasionally pull out the cat-o-nine tails, to remain competative with larger firms in the same market.

I'm one of these smaller style enterprises - around 35 to 40 staff on the books. Take it straight from the horses mouth when I make comment about poor productivity in comparrison to actual hours worked. When I am quoting on a job I will approximate the number of hours to produce an item - then double it. This is often under estimating.

Cheers,

Soundman.

Sorry, but better labor laws do not exclude improved productivity.

I am sure that industrialists of the 19th/early 20th century have raved and ranted against the "socialist crusaders" too. But i hope you realize that without these "socialist crusaders" most of you would not be sitting here, making holidays in Thailand, or even living here, opening your own companies.

You would be still bowing your head and saying "yes sir" to people like me, whose forefathers your forefathers fought against, resulting in the present situation that i am no different than you.

Unfortunately in Thailand the presence is not as rosy, as this report shows rather clearly. An educated labor force with rights makes better productivity in the end. And for that labor laws and welfare are necessary.

[soundman]

Sorry, but better labor laws do not exclude improved productivity.

I am sure that industrialists of the 19th/early 20th century have raved and ranted against the "socialist crusaders" too. But i hope you realize that without these "socialist crusaders" most of you would not be sitting here, making holidays in Thailand, or even living here, opening your own companies.

You would be still bowing your head and saying "yes sir" to people like me, whose forefathers your forefathers fought against, resulting in the present situation that i am no different than you.

Unfortunately in Thailand the presence is not as rosy, as this report shows rather clearly. An educated labor force with rights makes better productivity in the end. And for that labor laws and welfare are necessary.

I personally & other businessmen I associate with, have no problems paying things like legitimate sick pay, bonus's, annual leave, worker insurance etc.

That's easy, its just factored into the price of the finished product, which for you "the consumer" or "the ignornant socialist crusader" ends up being more expensive than without all those benefits.

This thread was started to point out how hard Thai workers work, & I'm refuting that (as a generalisation), by saying whilst they work long hours, they aren't necessarliy working hard or being productive.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[ColPyat]

I personally & other businessmen I associate with, have no problems paying things like legitimate sick pay, bonus's, annual leave, worker insurance etc.

That's easy, its just factored into the price of the finished product, which for you "the consumer" or "the ignornant socialist crusader" ends up being more expensive than without all those benefits.

This thread was started to point out how hard Thai workers work, & I'm refuting that (as a generalisation), by saying whilst they work long hours, they aren't necessarliy working hard or being productive.

Cheers,

Soundman.

You personal practice of paying all these benefits is laudable. But, unfortunately by far not all businesses do that. I would say the vast majority of SME's do not, and even in the bigger companies abuse of laws is common. That is why we need laws, and enforcement of such. And "socialist crusaders" are necessary as long as there are many employers that refuse to grant even the basics.

Common practice to avoid paying even the minimum required by the government is not issuing contracts, hire the workers short term, fire them, and hire them again.

Read up on the "Bed and Bath" case, one of the very few that made it to court, and where the workers succeeded in a way that even certain laws were amended. There is more than a bit of information available on the lousy conditions average workers here in the industrial zones have to work and live under.

Anyhow, if your products would be more expensive than comparable products of your competition because you pay the benefits, and your competitions doesn't, then you would be out of the market. So you must be doing something right that you can compete, and something that has more to do with better management then with cutting costs to the disadvantage of your workers.

[torito]

It is important to do not categorize all thais by making a judgement only from Thais who work in the Leasure and Hospitality industry.

In my experience Thais work hard and are productive. You have to work with them to see this. I have seen them working long productive hours without any extra pay, not in one but in various companies.

I know people who work in factories, 12 hours a day, 7 days a week without break for months, and they work on productivity. If you think that Thai business people do not control production on their workers, then you have no idea what you are talking about.

I do not know other place in the world in where people work so hard, considering that the whole system does not grant them future benefits, no laws or social organizations to protect their rights or compensate them for what they do. In factories most of them earn 5-7k when they are 20, and they expect to get the same when 40.

Farangs can not make any judgement based in the work parameters on their societies. In here the concept of making a career does not exist the same way, not even at professional levels. The concept of receiving recongnition for effort does not exist the same way.

In relation with what they get, for what they do, they are hard workers, no doubt about it. Any Thai working in a farang country, with real equal opportunities and conditions, would do better than farang as far as "work hard" is concern.

[soundman]

Anyhow, if your products would be more expensive than comparable products of your competition because you pay the benefits, and your competitions doesn't, then you would be out of the market. So you must be doing something right that you can compete, and something that has more to do with better management then with cutting costs to the disadvantage of your workers.

Not necessarily so. My competitors may be using cheaper labour without paying benefits but my more expensive staff will build the same product in a third of the time.

On a personal note I am a firm believer that if you pay peanuts - you get a monkey.

I really feel that to be competative in any industry you have to have a staff comprised of competant workers. I also believe there are quite often employees to be found that will turn into gold nuggets after brushing away the dirt. It quite often takes a lot of brushing to find them, but its worth the effort.

Once found, it is in my best interest to look after them. Irrespective of labour laws & guidelines I will always look after these employees better than the other business will, otherwise they'll walk - & with them goes training & knowledge. (& if you're not careful, the competative secrets & advantages of your business)

All that said, I find that two out three staff who start in my business end up being good for FA. Generalise those figures accross the thai labour market & that's a fair amount of people that might clock on for their 48 hrs, but not really achieve much. (except being experts on how to jam the machine. )

Cheers,

Soundman.

[Maigo6]

To all the Farangs who think Thai people are Lazy...............you don't know jack <deleted>................

I would love to give you 5 rai of farmland, 2 Buffalo, a bicycle, and a freeking old run down shack and see how well you do feeding a Family of 4 - 5.

You spoilt westerners don't know nothing at all.......................

I will give you a scenario, it ain't freek all to do with Thailand, but it's an example of how you westerners think you are so superior.... Imagine this :

You awake to find yourself in the Amazonian rain Forest, what would you do, You would die !

Along comes an uneducated Native who has lived in the rain forest all his life, he is hunting and gathering to feed his family, this native never ever had an education, but he can survive in his surroundings, where as you could not!

So don't always think that you are so better than Thai people, cos I tell you something, if you were as adaptable as they were, you would enjoy your time in Thailand so much better, it's just that you cannot adapt!!

And that my friend, is your problem, not Thailands or Thai peoples, just yours!!

PS. I'm back !

Edited June 9, 2007 by Maigo6

[uptou]

You spoilt westerners don't know nothing at all.......................

I will give you a scenario, it ain't freek all to do with Thailand, but it's an example of how you westerners think you are so superior.... Imagine this :

You awake to find yourself in the Amazonian rain Forest, what would you do, You would die !

Along comes an uneducated Native who has lived in the rain forest all his life, he is hunting and gathering to feed his family, this native never ever had an education, but he can survive in his surroundings, where as you could not!

PS. I'm back !

as entertaining as your post was,i dont get your point.

what if i'd read a ray mears book on survival before i got dumped in the amazon,& managed to get by,& then after awile went all native swinging from the trees?

[ColPyat]

On a personal note I am a firm believer that if you pay peanuts - you get a monkey.

Cheers,

Soundman.

Then you are not very far away from all the "socialist crusaders".

None of them advocates that people get paid for nothing. But unfortunately as long as the vast majority of companies here does not have such convictions, and treat their workers like ants, we will need both "socialist crusaders" and improved laws and enforcement, and international organisations such as the ILO.

The "socialist crusaders" don't have any problem with companies such as yours, but companies such as the infamous "Bed and Bath" case is a perfect example of.

Edited June 9, 2007 by ColPyat

[torito]

You spoilt westerners don't know nothing at all.......................

Thats the whole point....They try in here to lecture about what hard work it is when they have no idea what it is all about.

The fact it is that developing countries people, Asian, Latinos, etc., work harder than the local wherever they go in the world to a developed country.

Work hard is a comparative statement. Farangs coming here would never work as hard as Thai working in their farang countries. Farangs have no idea what "work hard" means.

[frikkiedeboer]

................................................................................

..........................................................

In my experience Thais work hard and are productive. You have to work with them to see this. I have seen them working long productive hours without any extra pay, not in one but in various companies.......................................................................

................................................................................

...

In relation with what they get, for what they do, they are hard workers, no doubt about it. Any Thai working in a farang country, with real equal opportunities and conditions, would do better than farang as far as "work hard" is concern.

ha, ha ,ha, ha, ha ,ha, ha,hahahahahahahahahahah!- <deleted>! ever been to isaan??

frikkie

[soundman]

Then you are not very far away from all the "socialist crusaders".

None of them advocates that people get paid for nothing. But unfortunately as long as the vast majority of companies here does not have such convictions, and treat their workers like ants, we will need both "socialist crusaders" and improved laws and enforcement, and international organisations such as the ILO.

The "socialist crusaders" don't have any problem with companies such as yours, but companies such as the infamous "Bed and Bath" case is a perfect example of.

Well in that case I may have used a term where I have missunderstood the meaning.

I have been referring to the groups of people who want more money for less hours, whilst working at a slower rate, lifting lighter objects, with increased un-employment benifits - all because they have a core belief that the hard working small business owner should not be able to get financially ahead of the poor factory labourer.

Some of the things they campaign for are beneficial to the labour market, things like work place safety & what not.

But most are not. Have a look at the Aussie waterfront docks. So overun by these types that it costs more to take a container off the ship than it does to send it half way around the globe. (Thai docks cost less than a tenth of the Aussie docks for exactly the same service).

Cheers,

Soundman.

[Maigo6]

as entertaining as your post was,i dont get your point.

On reading my post again, I don't get the point either! lol

[Maigo6]

ha, ha ,ha, ha, ha ,ha, ha,hahahahahahahahahahah!- <deleted>! ever been to isaan??

frikkie

And of course, 'Freaky the Bore' could do such much better with the same tools.

Hey Freaky, while you are sat behind a PC feeling superior, many people in Isaan are working the fields trying to feed their families!

Edited June 9, 2007 by Maigo6

[torito]

In my experience Thais work hard and are productive. You have to work with them to see this. I have seen them working long productive hours without any extra pay, not in one but in various companiesIn relation with what they get, for what they do, they are hard workers, no doubt about it. Any Thai working in a farang country, with real equal opportunities and conditions, would do better than farang as far as "work hard" is concern.

ha, ha ,ha, ha, ha ,ha, ha,hahahahahahahahahahah!- <deleted>! ever been to isaan??

frikkie

What's your point?.. ...you really think that you can judge this people in their ability to work hard?.

Too simplistic for my mind little silver spoon boy....even isaam people would have more arguments than you.

[uptou]

its obviously ridiculous to suggest ALL thais are lazy as it is to say farang dont know the meaning of hard work,but does long hours=hard graft?

[ColPyat]

Well in that case I may have used a term where I have missunderstood the meaning.

I have been referring to the groups of people who want more money for less hours, whilst working at a slower rate, lifting lighter objects, with increased un-employment benifits - all because they have a core belief that the hard working small business owner should not be able to get financially ahead of the poor factory labourer.

Some of the things they campaign for are beneficial to the labour market, things like work place safety & what not.

But most are not. Have a look at the Aussie waterfront docks. So overun by these types that it costs more to take a container off the ship than it does to send it half way around the globe. (Thai docks cost less than a tenth of the Aussie docks for exactly the same service).

Cheers,

Soundman.

I think we should clearly separate most union activities in the west nowadays, and in countries such as Thailand. The fat cats that lead the Unions in the west nowadays are often worse capitalists than the businesses they are fighting against, whatever they may call themselves (just reading of one scandal after the other makes me sick). Socialists they are not.

I would like to see Union leaders in the west fight against abuse of immigrant workers, especially of illegal immigrants, instead they ignore them, or fight against them and don't for solutions for that complex issue. There are the real problems nowadays in the developed world, and not if someone has to work 15 minutes less or not.

Next problem are the enormously complex tax issues, carrying a huge overload of parasitic civil servants making employment more and more expensive to the disadvantage of both workers and employers.

Anyhow, here the situation is comparable to Europe under the industrialization - a bare minimum of laws that are hardly enforced, union leaders operating under threat against their lives, and benefits depending more on how individual employers deal with the issue. Some better, most unfortunately are still caught up in semi feudal ways.