UK Covid deaths pass 150,000 - so how have we done ?

[TorquayFan]

Into Year 3 of the Covid crisis and the the UK has crossed a tragic marker of 150,000 deaths.

In terms of 'deaths per million' the UK (2193 dpm) stands below the USA (2575 dpm) and much of S.America and E. Europe BUT still well above other major European Nations, despite Kate Bingham's massive VTF triumphs, well supported by BJ's Govt..

The UK's 2193 dpm looks sad against say, Thailand 311 dpm, Japan 146 dpm, Singapore 141 dpm, Australia 91 dpm and New Zealand 10 dpm. Of course there are differences in environmental factors around the World, but, nevertheless, these disparities, nearly 2 years hence, are mind blowing, to say the least.

Policies of border controls, mask wearing and the closure of 'superspreader' events were scorned widely. So I wonder if there are now any other suggestions to explain these disturbing differences.

As observed before the days of hindsight, it's hard to conclude that this UK Govt has managed the Covid crisis well, despite the overwhelming advantage of being first on the vaccines track.

 

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by TorquayFan
correct

[jayboy]

5 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Hogwash.

 

Doctors in the UK are quite capable of determining the cause of death.

 

As has been explained, but I’l repeat it for you.

 

The COVID virus does not itself kill, it causes diseases that kill.
 

So the patient gets infected with COVID then dies of lung failure, kidney failure, blood clots etc.

 

The cause of death is disease brought on by COVID. Hence ‘died with COVID’ is entirely correct.

This is broadly speaking correct.However it's necessary to have perspective when judging the UK's comparative performance on Covid mortality, the best way being to examine excess mortality - essentially the additional deaths that have taken place using a baseline of recent non pandemic years.By this criterion the UK comes in the middle of the pack of rich European nations.Better than Italy and Spain but worse than Germany and France.

 

The UK government has certainly made mistakes and the media has rightly focused on these but frankly so have many other governments.What is almost never discussed is the UK's particular problem of obesity and those knowledgeable about Intensive care facilities will tell you that most of the patients (elderly 80+ excepted) are seriously overweight.Of course obesity occurs in other countries but it doesn't seem so embedded in the culture.Immigrant communities and ethnic minorities are affected disproportionately as they are in other European countries - but in the UK the explanation is almost always "systemic racism".And of course all and sundry blame the heartless Tory Government as though there are no other factors in play.

 

I'm all for bashing Boris but there's a stench of dishonesty in the air in the discussion of Covid in the UK.Let's see what a judge led inquiry throws up.On a purely anecdotal basis I was watching a BBC report recently when a morbidly obese NHS nurse was explaining her condition as a result of lacking the time to eat healthily and that the government was to blame for under funding the system.Pull the other one.

Edited January 10, 2022 by jayboy

[Chomper Higgot]

45 minutes ago, jayboy said:

This is broadly speaking correct.However it's necessary to have perspective when judging the UK's comparative performance on Covid mortality, the best way being to examine excess mortality - essentially the additional deaths that have taken place using a baseline of recent non pandemic years.By this criterion the UK comes in the middle of the pack of rich European nations.Better than Italy and Spain but worse than Germany and France.

 

The UK government has certainly made mistakes and the media has rightly focused on these but frankly so have many other governments.What is almost never discussed is the UK's particular problem of obesity and those knowledgeable about Intensive care facilities will tell you that most of the patients (elderly 80+ excepted) are seriously overweight.Of course obesity occurs in other countries but it doesn't seem so embedded in the culture.Immigrant communities and ethnic minorities are affected disproportionately as they are in other European countries - but in the UK the explanation is almost always "systemic racism".And of course all and sundry blame the heartless Tory Government as though there are no other factors in play.

 

I'm all for bashing Boris but there's a stench of dishonesty in the air in the discussion of Covid in the UK.Let's see what a judge led inquiry throws up.On a purely anecdotal basis I was watching a BBC report recently when a morbidly obese NHS nurse was explaining her condition as a result of lacking the time to eat healthily and that the government was to blame for under funding the system.Pull the other one.

Perhaps you’d like to start a thread on your misconceptions surrounding obesity.

 

 

[jayboy]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Perhaps you’d like to start a thread on your misconceptions surrounding obesity.

 

 

No, because the way you phrase your question reflects an unwillingness to grasp the immensity of the problem in the UK.The intractable problem of obesity in the UK is directly relevant to the high number of deaths, the subject of this thread.This kind of denial is sadly widespread. For those who are genuinely interested the British Medical Journal and the Center for Disease Control have relevant background.

 

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/03/04/we-must-tackle-obesity-and-health-inequalities-in-order-to-build-back-better/

 

https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/obesity-and-covid-19.html

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, jayboy said:

No, because the way you phrase your question reflects an unwillingness to grasp the immensity of the problem in the UK.The intractable problem of obesity in the UK is directly relevant to the high number of deaths, the subject of this thread.This kind of denial is sadly widespread. For those who are genuinely interested the British Medical Journal and the Center for Disease Control have relevant background.

 

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/03/04/we-must-tackle-obesity-and-health-inequalities-in-order-to-build-back-better/

 

https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/obesity-and-covid-19.html

I phrased my question in response to the content of your post. 
 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Chomper Higgot

[Chomper Higgot]

*Deleted post edited out*

 

Demonstrate your claim to be true with reference to the official procedures for identification and recording cause of death and I will remove my confused emoji.

 

Before you start, the exact same claim has been made by purveyors of false information regarding the recording of deaths in the UK.

 

A claim that has been debunked:

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/whetherthosewhohavediedfromacaraccidentwithcovid19willbecountedinonsstatistics

 

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Scott

[jayboy]

59 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I phrased my question in response to the content of your post. 
 

 

 

 

 

Your head in the sand position on the devastating relationship between Covid and obesity in the UK isn't that unusual.It's not however one shared by doctors on the front line though you no doubt dismiss their opinion as casually as you ignore the views of the BMJ and the CDC.

[Chomper Higgot]

37 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Your head in the sand position on the devastating relationship between Covid and obesity in the UK isn't that unusual.It's not however one shared by doctors on the front line though you no doubt dismiss their opinion as casually as you ignore the views of the BMJ and the CDC.

I haven’t commented on the link between obesity and COVID outcomes.

 

My response you you is in respect of all the other nonsense in your post.

You’ve packed it with enough nonsense to warrant disregarding the whole, hence my suggestion you consider starting a thread on your misunderstandings of the issues around obesity.

 

But, full marks for trying to distract from the Government’s multiple failings in the fight against COVID.

[Chomper Higgot]

10 minutes ago, JustAnotherHun said:

RKI is an official source, Einstein ????

If you were a man you'd apologize for your laughable defamtion attempts.

Stay in your playground.

So is the CDC, but simply mentioning the CDC (or RKI for that matter)  in a post doesn’t not provide verification of anything else in the post.

 

Refer my link above to the UK Office of National Statistics to get an idea of how to provide verification of a claim.

 

Provide evidence to back up your claim!

 

 

Before you do, have a read of this:

 

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/verify/covid-deaths-car-crash-comorbidities-coronavirus-death-total-counts-john-hopkins-study/65-e3842ed2-f753-4a15-8b97-c2ae75c2b2ce

 

The self same garbage ‘car accidents counted as COVID deaths’ is spread in the US and debunked in the US.

 

But you think it’s true in Germany.

 

Present your proof.

 

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Chomper Higgot

[Whale]

To end this (hopefully) in terms of the UK.

 

Chomper is correct ...... it's a long read but it categorically puts Pond life in the wrong with his assumption, although the idea did have a lot of social media "support" which often misleads us all. Indeed I thought Pond Life was correct until I read this ........

 

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/news-item/measuring-mortality-during-covid-19-a-q-a

 

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Whale

[JustAnotherHun]

9 minutes ago, Whale said:

To end this (hopefully) in terms of the UK.

 

Chomper is correct

In my first post in this topic I explicitely stated that the counting method likely is different in GB. I refered to Germany, nothing else.

I even saw an article a couple of weeks ago where German statisticians demand to adopt the British method for more accuracy.

I should know better, but uneducated clowns claiming I provide false information still annoy me temporarily.

Edited January 10, 2022 by JustAnotherHun

[Danderman123]

*Deleted post edited out*

 

The people who told you that were lying. 

 

Official Covid death numbers come from death certificates, not just those who died within 28 days of a positive Covid test. 

 

You should not believe everything you are sent. 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Scott

[jayboy]

38 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You’ve packed it with enough nonsense to warrant disregarding the whole

Is that your rather lame excuse for disregarding the obesity issue and the scientific evidence on it?

 

Can you identify what you disagree with? I cannot see anything in it which is in the slightest controversial. It's not enough to say a post is packed with nonsense if you are completely silent on even the general gist of your reservations.None of us are immune from criticism on this complicated subject, certainly not me.But you seem to be caught up in your own narrative, most of which is plausible as I pointed out earlier, but angrily intolerant of contrary opinions or indeed any evidence which unsettles your narrative.That's your right but this is a discussion forum.

Edited January 10, 2022 by jayboy

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, jayboy said:

Is that your rather lame excuse for disregarding the obesity issue and the scientific evidence on it?

 

Can you identify what you disagree with? I cannot see anything in it which is in the slightest controversial. It's not enough to say a post is packed with nonsense if you are completely silent on even the general gist of your reservations.None of us are immune from criticism on this complicated subject, certainly not me.But you seem to be caught up in your own narrative, most of which is plausible as I pointed out earlier, but angrily intolerant of contrary opinions or indeed any evidence which unsettles your narrative.That's your right but this is a discussion forum.

I’ll ignore all your emotional nonsense accusation in the above and go to this:

 

You’ve stated ‘[obesity] is embedded in the culture’.

 

Your starter for ten, explain what this ‘Culture of obesity is’?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Danderman123 said:

The people who told you that were lying. 

 

Official Covid death numbers come from death certificates, not just those who died within 28 days of a positive Covid test. 

 

You should not believe everything you are sent. 

This lie ‘Deaths within 28 days/road accidents etc counted as COVID deaths’ has, as I have demonstrated with links to reliable sources, been wide spread in the UK and the US. And has been debunked on both sides of the Atlantic.

 

Now we find it being spread, and swallowed, Germany too.

 

What is it about utter and transparent nonsense that people swallow it so easily and then stick to it when shown that it’s nonsense?

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Chomper Higgot

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’ll ignore all your emotional nonsense accusation in the above and go to this:

 

You’ve stated ‘[obesity] is embedded in the culture’.

 

Your starter for ten, explain what this ‘Culture of obesity is’?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anything to avoid dealing with the issue, it seems.Never mind - many have a blind spot on the subject of British obesity.To some extent it's a class issue.

 

As to the UK culture of obesity this is hardly esoteric material.There's so much evidence.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/food/articles/britain_diet

[Scott]

Numerous off-topic posts (this thread isn't about Germany), posts with false or misleading claims and baiting/bickering troll posts along with replies have been removed.  

 

 

[TorquayFan]

Elsewhere I've seen the case made, that 'obesity' in the UK accounts for the UK/Japan dpm disparity. That's rubbish of course - have you ever seen Sumo LOL ! But generally, Japan is a fair comparator, having almost twice the UK's population but at a higher density of 334 per km2, (UK 270 km2), and a very close GDP per head and 1/15th of the UK's dpm.

A variety of potential factors affecting 'dpm' are discussed - statistical methods, density of population, age demographic of population, health of population, standards of medical care, availability of medical care, ethnicity, cultural habits. Perhaps some are relevant but it would be wrong to conclude that these factors exacerbate but never work the other way.

The UK's Govt policies re. border controls, mask wearing and the closure of superspreader events, might be some of the main reasons for having dramatically different dpm records.

 

I agree that 'recording' differences will in some cases be significant.

Just for fun, here's some more - the UK dpm is worse than New Zealand's x 219, Australia x 26, Japan x15, Thailand x7 etc.

At the height of the early pandemic in New York, at least 10 flights a day were landing at LHR alone, whilst our PM was busy shaking hands and discounting the use of face masks, which were not then required, even on public transport. IMHO we did badly and there's nothing to be gained from hiding from the fact.

 

The UK's dpm is admittedly in the same range as many other European Countries - I don't see that as a point - had we done some things differently, might we not have done better ? What would have been wrong with that ?

[Chomper Higgot]

Perhaps not a surprise, It seems the UK Government couldn’t tell the truth on this:

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/11/uk-covid-death-toll-ons

[TorquayFan]

Thanks for that Chomper - what a shambles !

[Pond Life]

Feel free to roast me, but at least read/watch it first.

 

https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/it-turns-out-if-you-doubted-covid-headlines-you-were-correct

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, Pond Life said:

Feel free to roast me, but at least read/watch it first.

 

https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/it-turns-out-if-you-doubted-covid-headlines-you-were-correct

You get your views on COVID from Zero Hedge.

 

Righty-o! (Pun intended).

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge

[Pond Life]

You get your information from Wikipedia !

Righty-o, That says all we need to know about you.

[James105]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You get your views on COVID from Zero Hedge.

 

Righty-o! (Pun intended).

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge

If you bothered to actually read the article rather than immediately looking to discredit the source you would have noted that they base their article on information from the CDC.  An example quote from that link (which originated from the CDC):

 

“The overwhelming number of deaths, over 75%, occurred in people who had at least four comorbidities. So, really, these are people who were unwell to begin with. And yes, really encouraging news in the context of Omicron; this means not only just to get your primary series but to get your booster series. And yes, we’re really encouraged by these results.” 

 

So the number of "from Covid" deaths would be about 32,500 in the UK and the "with Covid" would be 150,000 if that is correct.   

 

So now you know the information comes from the CDC what is your next step?  To try and find a wikipedia entry that discredits the CDC?  

[Chomper Higgot]

31 minutes ago, James105 said:

If you bothered to actually read the article rather than immediately looking to discredit the source you would have noted that they base their article on information from the CDC.  An example quote from that link (which originated from the CDC):

 

“The overwhelming number of deaths, over 75%, occurred in people who had at least four comorbidities. So, really, these are people who were unwell to begin with. And yes, really encouraging news in the context of Omicron; this means not only just to get your primary series but to get your booster series. And yes, we’re really encouraged by these results.” 

 

So the number of "from Covid" deaths would be about 32,500 in the UK and the "with Covid" would be 150,000 if that is correct.   

 

So now you know the information comes from the CDC what is your next step?  To try and find a wikipedia entry that discredits the CDC?  

“So the number of "from Covid" deaths would be about 32,500 in the UK and the "withCovid" would be 150,000 if that is correct. “

The UK’s ONS, who’s job it is to collect and present the data have stated the actual death count exceeds 175,000.

 

Perhaps you’d like to explain the disparity between your statement I have placed in quotes above and the ONS data.

 

The UK’s procedures for recording cause of death are available and you might want to make reference to them when making your reply.

 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Chomper Higgot