Is Isaan Different?

[XiengHai]

O yeah, i found this map

U can image the migration partern of the Tai ppl along the Mekong

[somtaamgaiyang]

Speaking Lao is different. Anyone know what percentage of native Isaan people speak Lao?

What we often call Lao as it relates to Isaan people's language is not Lao. It is known officially as Northeastern Thai, better known as Isaan. Most Isaan speakers cannot understand the Lao languge even though they are related. Some Isaan people get quite irritated when the term Lao is used either in relation to language or ethnicty as it implies "low class".

To your question:

There are 16 languages spoken in Isaan. Population numbers are about 10 years old but figure % are about the same now.

Northeastern Thai (Isaan) - 15,000,000 - 87.39%

Northern Khmer (Khmer Lue) - 1,117,588 - 6.51%

Thai (Khorat Thai) - 400,000 - 2.33%

Kuy (Suai) - 300,000 - 1.75%

Remaining 12 all less than 1% each - 2.02%

btw: There are 51,000 who use Thai Sign Language in Thailand. They are all in the business of selling trinkets and ripoff tee shirts to tourists.

Aren't you glad you asked.

Does this then make Northeastern Isaan the most widely spoken language in Thailand?

[farangfool]

Yes the NOrthern region vote was very close, but chiangrai, Nan, and other the eastern provinces closet to Laos, voted No.

One difference is that, even though Nothern regions are mainly ethnic Laotians, they(LanNa) for the most part has always been considered a seperate Lao Kingdom, vs LanChang, were as Isaan was always apart of the one Kingdom(LanChang) that is today called Laos.

But the area was hardly integrated into the siamese state. Until the arrival of the railway they had their own currency, effectively an own dynasty (again then 'invited' to Bangkok), and, maybe sadly enough, their own share of fundamentalist western missionaries, further indicating their different rythm of development.

Aside from being massacred for being rebellious and get the country torched, I do not think that there was a major difference in rule for ordinary farmers. Apparently, the Laos system resembled more a feudal system with local lords exercising power while being answerable to vientiane. The Siamese system under Bangkok was more absolutist and depended on administrators rather than local dynasties. The wiping out of laos dynasties and turning them at best into administrators in other parts of the country fits that pattern. But while this was nasty for the local aristocracy, it did not necessarily mean a fundamental change in life for the local people. The real switch usually comes with the advent of administrations and schooling on the town/village level. The teachers introducing new languages, values, and and also control.

Thai nationalism coupled with an imperial consciousness is actually a rather aggressive mix. So you have active assimilation policies plus the described attemps at territorial expansion. As this has to be financed, it often comes with increased taxes/rents or forced labor in lieu of the former.

If this correct, the Isan population and that of large parts of the north plus south learned by the 1930s that they were not simply the subjects of the king (and therefore second class) but that they were even less than other subjects. Discrimination breeds resentment and suppressing cultures has a tendency to make people aware of their distinct traditions. A wonderful exhibit of Thai nationalism is the central building of Bkk's national museum. The arrangement of the exhibits is as interesting as the pieces plus do not fail to read the descriptions. The entrance show on Thai history has a big poster with bans on photographing. The show itself easily explains that.

So the current conflicts are not surprising. Isan did not get much from Bangkok in the past decades. Surely they were the military highways to US airbases and the triumphant new royal palace near sakon as a symbol of full control over the insurgent area. In terms of industrial development not much has happened beyond Korat and the government's plans for the eastern sea board suggests that this will remain so.

A very interesting questions would be the accumulation of land by Bangkok based circles. There had been cases of wide-scale displacement of villagers in areas earmarked for dams etc. The land went for very low sums and the new owners then cashed in on 'compensation'.

In other words, the migrants not only take the purchases and money from their work back home but also a knowledge that their place and lives are poor as compared to other areas. Taksin made with the health insurance a tangible promise and seemingly kept it. Of course no one understands that he failed to provide adequate financing and that he brought the health on the verge of collapse. But for this can hardly matter.

The much talked about Mukdahan-Savannaket bridge won't re-direct major trade streams, but again it was a visible symbol in an otherwise rather sleepy neighbourhood.

OTOP is a much publicized success story but does really turn around a substantial number of family incomes? I doubt that.

As far as I can see, the current government has brought nothing to Isan other than martial law. The economic down turn in construction and production hits first the un-skilled Isaan workers and also those Isan girls that made it through university and have now office jobs (usually the lower end of the scale).

So why should anyone support "their" constitution? It cements the control of the old de-facto aristocratic Bangkok elites and the military and gives little of anything concrete to the small guys. The bits and pieces of government sustained credit is merely a consumers' incentive and cannot elevate the situation. Agricultural cooperatives etc. seem to be a better way out of it but that is too emancipatory for this country and its 'benefactors.'

[XiengHai]

Speaking Lao is different. Anyone know what percentage of native Isaan people speak Lao?

What we often call Lao as it relates to Isaan people's language is not Lao. It is known officially as Northeastern Thai, better known as Isaan. Most Isaan speakers cannot understand the Lao languge even though they are related. Some Isaan people get quite irritated when the term Lao is used either in relation to language or ethnicty as it implies "low class".

To your question:

There are 16 languages spoken in Isaan. Population numbers are about 10 years old but figure % are about the same now.

Northeastern Thai (Isaan) - 15,000,000 - 87.39%

Northern Khmer (Khmer Lue) - 1,117,588 - 6.51%

Thai (Khorat Thai) - 400,000 - 2.33%

Kuy (Suai) - 300,000 - 1.75%

Remaining 12 all less than 1% each - 2.02%

btw: There are 51,000 who use Thai Sign Language in Thailand. They are all in the business of selling trinkets and ripoff tee shirts to tourists.

Aren't you glad you asked.

Does this then make Northeastern Isaan the most widely spoken language in Thailand?

i think his table is just the discription of the Isaan region and not the whole of thailand,

which is about 60 million nationally, Isaan ppl being between 16 to 20 million.

But i do wonder, talking with Farangfool, why did the Isaan pop. not assimulate as easely as did the Northern ppl of Thailand.

i think because Isaan had a closer tie to the Lao ppl east of the river, being the connection was more obvious, through the Indochina war, and refugee's crossing over into Isaan, as the nothern regions of thailand developed mostly on its own, culturaly.

even though, i find that my friends who are from Nothern Thailand, use their local dialects more often when speaking to one another then they do using central dialect, which the Nothern Thai Dialect being more similiar to the Lao language of Laos then it is similiar to Central Thailand dialect? I can understand Nothern Dialect farely easley, were as i have trouble grasping central dialect.

even up to the 1930's, reference to the Nothern Thais was that of the "Lao Tung Dam," meaning the (Black Belly Lao) of Chiangmai, in reference to the local pupulation of males who tattooed their bellies, vs the "Lao Tung Kaow" (white belly Lao) of the ppl of Loungprabang, because they tatttooed their arms and area's around the belly. of course these terms were used to describe the Nothern Thais was discourage do to the implication of Thaification of the region, and to erase the local Lao heritage of the region implacing the central viewpoints of selective history, revised.

[farangfool]

here something to look at and perhaps also to illustrate what i said above:

It is an old lao chedi at Ta Priang Tia between Surin and Sangkha. The photo is not so nice as it was already 5 PM or later and raining really badly and the place is a long 7km motobike ride from the main road.

The official informaton locally on display reads:

"This ancient monuments dates from the late Ayutthaya-Rattanakosin periods, around the 18th-19th century A.D."

The 2nd photo shows the contends of the chedi. If you compare this structure with older Khmer prangs (of comparable size) then it suggests a considerable decline of craftsmanship and knowledge after the end of Khmer rule in the area. It might be that the absence of an elaborate emperial infrastructure might have precluded elaborate architectural works.

What is really interesting me, is that old Laos chedis are seemingly few in Isan. Did they all collapse with the passing of time or was population density so thin that there was simply no demand and the remaining Khmer prangs were sufficient?

[farangfool]

This is a photo from Ku Pra Kona near suvanaphum (between Roit et and Surin).

The photo is somewhat funny as it shows a stone thrown out of the inner temple area (khmer prang). Seems that Shiva fell on hard times when the Khmers turned Buddist. So the poor guy is now lying outside in the dirt.

By the way, the info at Ku Pra Kona acknowledges that this is originally a Khmer temple. So it seems important who was in charge at certain desks when these info plates were produced.

[roietjimmy]

Speaking Lao is different. Anyone know what percentage of native Isaan people speak Lao?

There are 16 languages spoken in Isaan. Population numbers are about 10 years old but figure % are about the same now.

Northeastern Thai (Isaan) - 15,000,000 - 87.39%

Northern Khmer (Khmer Lue) - 1,117,588 - 6.51%

Thai (Khorat Thai) - 400,000 - 2.33%

Kuy (Suai) - 300,000 - 1.75%

Remaining 12 all less than 1% each - 2.02%

Does this then make Northeastern Isaan the most widely spoken language in Thailand?

i think his table is just the discription of the Isaan region and not the whole of thailand,

which is about 60 million nationally, Isaan ppl being between 16 to 20 million.

Yes, the numbers only covered Isaan. Numbers were taken from a study done by Mahidol University. It should be noted that Northeastern Thai is the "official" (government politically correct) name for the language. In reality, it is in fact Lao with minor variations depending on specific locations in Isaan.

Thai also called Central Tai, Standard Thai, Thaiklang, Siamese is spoken by over 20,000,000 so is the most spoken language in Thailand. Northeastern Thai is second with 15,000,000.