Types Of Settlements And Their English Counterparts

[Joseph87]

I would like to know the english counterparts for these as following

1 - Nakorn

2 - Thani

3 - Krung

4 - Racha-thani

5 - Poom

6 - Muang

Sometimes they use Thani...like Udon Thani and sometimes they use Nakorn Si Thammarat...and sometimes some provinces call themselves e.g. MuangSurin

I dont get it.

[DavidHouston]

A good start is Rikker's reply on 2007-08-25 to the topic, "Translation of Thai Area Area & Street Names"

[Joseph87]

Thanks, DavidHouston

Rikker

Often the names incorporate a word meaning something like city or village:

นคร = city

ธานี = city

เวียง = city

บุรี = city

วัง = palace

บ้าน = village

บาง = town along a waterway

However, I feel it is a bit vague. I would like to be a bit more specific though.

"City" can mean a lot of things like, how big the city is, and so on.

Nakorn - I think it feels like a huge city, or a capital?

Thani - I think it's like a big city, but not as big as a capital city?

Baan/Poom?

It's a bit confusing for me.

Buri? like, Burirom?

[meadish_sweetball]

However, I feel it is a bit vague. I would like to be a bit more specific though.

'krung' / 'groong' is used as a prefix in front of capitals (added in front of the names of foreign capitals too - krung paris, krung london, krung stockholm etc.) - but apart from that, the others can be cities of various sizes.

It's true the 'Nakhon'/'Nakorn' cities tend to be larger. Perhaps historically there was a thought to this, but if so, I don't know it.

Note that there is no absolute size rule as regards '-bury' '-burgh' '-ton' '-ville' '-er' either.

[patri]

Those're just parts of the names people chose to call the places. They didn't intend to catagorize them by size or anything when they named their cities a long time ago. People just chose what they thought they were beautiful names with good meanings to call their cities. And there were just a lot of sanskrt words that meant "cities", "Town", etc. to choose from.

[DavidHouston]

I'm trying to look at several Thai texts to see if there is a discussion regarding the history of these terms. First, I looked at the online version of the สกุลไทย magazine. This basically society magazine contains two occasional columns which have been running for quite some time now. One is on general Thai language issues and the other comares and contrasts sets of words. I scanned each page of the extensive index and found nothing about นคร and ธานี, for example. Then I started to look at the book compilation, "ภาษาไทยวันละคำ". Here there was some success. I see a longish article on the word นคร. If you give me a bit of time, I will see what I can glean from this article and see if there is more.

All this is very interesting and delves into what Thais commonly call "บ่อเกิด" ของคำ or the birthplace of words. Thanks for getting us to focus on these terms.

[Joseph87]

meadish_sweetball

Ah, I see that Kroong can be used as a prefix to indicated that this city is a capital city of the country?

I see your point too. I just thought that, with so many names with the same meaning sounds a bit strange

patri

I heard that Sanskrit is a language that is very specific for many things. They even have many names for example, earth or metal based on its content, size, type, and so on, hence the many names for same thing. So I thought in the ancient times, they might used these Sanskrit words for a purpose or something.

A good example would be the simple word "Eat"

However, there are many words for that simple word "Eat". I thought it would be the same for cities.

DavidHouston

Thanks for taking your time to look deeper into the real meaning of these words. It is certainly an eye opener!

[DavidHouston]

Well, I hope you will not be disappointed but I found nothing dramatic. Below I include segments from "A Word a Day" and the Royal Institute Dictionary:

__________________________

A Word a Day: "นคร" มาจากคำภาษาบาลีและสันสกฤต "นคร" (นะ-คะ-ระ) แปลว่าเมืองใหญ่ กรุง ประกฏในชื่อจังหวัดและชื่อเมืองในประเทศไทย

"Nakorn" comes from Pali and Sanskrit languages. "Nakorn" (pronounced Na-ka-ra) means, "a large city or state" or "krung". The word often shows up in the names of provinces and cities within Thailand.

RID: "นคร" [นะคอน, นะคะระ] น. เมืองใหญ่, กรุง. (ป., ส.).

"Nakorn" [Na-korn or Na-ka-ra] Noun. "a large city or state", "krung. (Pali, Sanskrit.)

RID: "ธานี" น. เมือง. (ป., ส.).

"Thani" Noun City (Pali, Sanskrit)

A Word a Day: "กรุง" เป็นคำเขมร เขมนโบราณใช้คำวา กุรุง แต่เขมรยุหลังใช้เป็นคำพยางค์เดียวว่า "กรุง" มีความหมาย ๓ อย่าง คือ เมืองหลวง กษัตริย์ และเป็นกษัตริย์ . . . . คำว่า กรุง และ กรุงกษัตริย์ ในภาษาไทยใช้ในความหมายว่ากษัตริย์ได้

"Krung" is a Kemer word. In ancient Kemer the word was "Kurung" but in later times the word was shortened to become a single syllable, pronounced "krung." This word has three possible meanings: a capital city; a king; and to be a king . . . The word "krung" and "drungkasat" in Thai language can both used to denote "king".

RID: กรุง [กฺรุง] น. เมืองหลวง, เมืองซึ่งเป็นที่ตั้งรัฐบาลกลาง, แต่ก่อนหมายถึง

ประเทศก็ได้ เช่น กรุงสยาม กรุงจีน; (โบ) กษัตริย์ . . .

"Krung", a noun, means capital city and a place with the central government is seated. In former times the word meant "country", for example, "Krung Siam", "Krung Jin" (China); (archaic meaning) king.

[mangkorn]

Not so strange there would be many words and meanings. In Spanish, for example, the word "pueblo" can mean country, city, region, "The People," any size town, or even a tiny hamlet, depending on the usage.

[mangkorn]

In English, one might think "city" refers to a larger population centre, while "town" might be a smaller one. But it can also refer to the type of political designation, form of incorporation, etc. That depends on different usages. Is it London Town, or London City? In fact, The City refers to a specific central part of London, not all of it - and, if I'm not mistaken - can also mean just the financial-market activity specifically, with no clear geographical boundary (akin to "Wall Street.") That could get pretty confusing.

And then what about: "New York (City), my kind of town..." You can call it a town, even though it's a major city, a commercial capital, a cultural capital, a metropolis, a cosmopolitan city, and let's not forget: Gotham. And if you're in Brooklyn or Queens or Staten Island, boroughs that are very much part of New York City by political, cultural and geographical definitions, people may refer to the borough of Manhattan as "the city."

There is probably no discernible difference between places named: Johnstown, Johnston, Johnson, Johnson City, Johnsburg, Johnsburgh, Johnsville, etc.

[Johpa]

For what it is worth, Nakorn (นคร) tends to refer to a capitol city, such as Nakorn Sri Thammarat (formerly a capitol) or Angor Wat (same Pali root word).

As noted in an earlier post from the Royal Institute Dictionary, Krung (กรุง) has the same meaning although derived from Kmer.

The term Wiang (เวียง) also means the same thing but derives, I think, from Tai. Up north one still speaks of the city of Chiang Mai as the Wiang.

All the words mean basically the same thing but simply show the historical linguistic influences upon the region. There is a branch of historical research that combines history and linguistics that focuses upon place names of towns, villages, rivers , lakes and other geographical features as often these names retain more ancient place names even after multiple migrations have totally changed the ethnic demographics of an area.

[Richard W]

A Word a Day: "นคร" มาจากคำภาษาบาลีและสันสกฤต "นคร" (นะ-คะ-ระ) แปลว่าเมืองใหญ่ กรุง ประกฏในชื่อจังหวัดและชื่อเมืองในประเทศไทย "Nakorn" comes from Pali and Sanskrit languages. "Nakorn" (pronounced Na-ka-ra) means, "a large city or state" or "krung". The word often shows up in the names of provinces and cities within Thailand.

I would simply translate "นคร" (นะ-คะ-ระ) as Nagara.

[Richard W]

The term Wiang (เวียง) also means the same thing but derives, I think, from Tai. Up north one still speaks of the city of Chiang Mai as the Wiang.

To be a 'wiang' a place must have a 'city' wall - the abbreviation is a cross within a circle, like the symbol for a direct sum or direct product.

I don't know how, if at all, 'wiang' differs from 'chiang'.

[Joseph87]

Wow...thanks guys. This is very informative. Mangkorn is saying what I thought but yeah, I guess it's all about influences, based on region.

[DavidHouston]

Questions regarding Thai language and geography are very interesting as the vocabulary has changed to meet historical needs.

I am currently reading "Siam Mapped, a History of the Geo-body of a Nation" by Thongchai Winichakul, Silkworm Books, 1994, 595 baht. This book is an expansion of Dr. Thongchai's doctoral thesis.

The book contains an extensive glossary and bibliography. All the words in the glossary are explained more thoroughly in the book. Words new to me include "prathetsarat", meaning a tributary kingship and kingdom and "samfaifa", meaning a tributary under many overlords (three in the case of this term).

One of the primary themes of this book is the difference in concepts between the old Siamese notions of territory and tribute, and the Western concepts of borders and soverignty. The Siamese quickly addapted to the new ideas at the end of the nineteenth century after being challenged by France and Britain on three sides of its very flexible frontier areas.

If any of you have read the book, please provide some reactions and commentary. Thanks.

[stateman]

Rikker

Often the names incorporate a word meaning something like city or village:

นคร = city

ธานี = city

เวียง = city

บุรี = city

วัง = palace

บ้าน = village

บาง = town along a waterway

From my observation, it seems there is a specific way each is used.

นคร may be used either in front of, or in the back of, the name.

เวียง generally is used before the name.

วัง generally is used before the name.

บ้าน generally is used before the name.

บาง generally is used before the name.

บุรี generally is used after the name. One glaring exception is Burirum, when buri is in front.

ธานี generally is used after the name.

A Word a Day: "นคร" มาจากคำภาษาบาลีและสันสกฤต "นคร" (นะ-คะ-ระ) แปลว่าเมืองใหญ่ กรุง ประกฏในชื่อจังหวัดและชื่อเมืองในประเทศไทย "Nakorn" comes from Pali and Sanskrit languages. "Nakorn" (pronounced Na-ka-ra) means, "a large city or state" or "krung". The word often shows up in the names of provinces and cities within Thailand.

I would simply translate "นคร" (นะ-คะ-ระ) as Nagara.

"'Nakorn' (pronounced Na-ka-ra)".

This surprises me. I thought in Thai it is generally pronounced "Nakorn".

I hope some Thais will comment whether they too pronounced "Nakorn", instead of "Na-ka-ra".

[DavidHouston]

Here is the definition and pronunciation guide from the Royal Institute Dictionary:

นคร, นคร [นะคอน, นะคะระ] น. เมืองใหญ่, กรุง. (ป., ส.).

Note the secondary pronunciation of นะคะระ.

[mangkorn]

Here is the definition and pronunciation guide from the Royal Institute Dictionary:

นคร, นคร [นะคอน, นะคะระ] น. เมืองใหญ่, กรุง. (ป., ส.).

Note the secondary pronunciation of นะคะระ.

Has anyone actually heard a Thai person pronounce it that way in common speech?

And would อุดร then also be อุดะระ ?

[chinnotes]

Somewhere I read that the word "chiang" in เชียงใหม่, เชียงราย, เชียงตุง, เชียงเงิน, and เชียงแสน (all are cities in northern Thailand) is related to Chinese "cheng" meaning wall, fortification, (walled) city, as in "dacheng" = Great Wall, and there are many cities all over China with "cheng" as their first syllable, like Cheng-an, Chengchuan, Chengdong, Chengfangqiao, Chenggan, Chengkou, Chengling, Chengnan, Chengqian, Chengtou, Chengyang, and others.

As for นคร I know only of one word which is pronounced na-ka-r(ah), namely นคราทร, pronounced นะ-คะ-รา-ทอน

This word is, however, now obsolete I think, at first it was used as "municipality", later it was used as the name of a department ("ชื่อกรมมีหน้าที่ทำความสะอาดให้แก่พระนคร" as given in the Dict. of the Royal Institute).

Erwin (อัศวิน)

[stateman]

Here is the definition and pronunciation guide from the Royal Institute Dictionary:

นคร, นคร [นะคอน, นะคะระ] น. เมืองใหญ่, กรุง. (ป., ส.).

Note the secondary pronunciation of นะคะระ.

Here is the definition and pronunciation guide from the Royal Institute Dictionary:

นคร, นคร [นะคอน, นะคะระ] น. เมืองใหญ่, กรุง. (ป., ส.).

Note the secondary pronunciation of นะคะระ.

Has anyone actually heard a Thai person pronounce it that way in common speech?

mangkorn said it better than I did.

Technically it can be read either way: [นะคอน, นะคะระ]. However I have never heard any Thai read it as นะคะระ before.

A similar situation happens to the name: พชร

It can be pronounced either pa-chaun or pa-cha-ra. This is the name of the national chief prosecutor who just retired. He chose to read his name as pa-cha-ra. This is equivalent to reading นะคะระ for นคร.

I thought if I were going to high scholl with him, I would probably have kept calling him pa-chaun - just because that was the way I prefer to pronounce it!

Another word which can be pronounced two ways: it is โทรศัพท์

โทร can be read as "tho-ra" as commonly done.

Technically it can also be pronounced as "throe".

I knew an Ajarn-yai (principal) at a major school in Bkk who liked to pronounced it as "throe". He got a kick out of doing it! And because it is legit, it can be done!

He also mentioned another word he liked to pronounce against the current.

That word is กลาโหม as the name of the Ministry of Defense.

Common pronunciation is kala-hoem. But this principal preferred to pronounce it as kala-moe.

As for นคร I know only of one word which is pronounced na-ka-r(ah), namely นคราทร, pronounced นะ-คะ-รา-ทอน

This word is, however, now obsolete I think, at first it was used as "municipality", later it was used as the name of a department ("ชื่อกรมมีหน้าที่ทำความสะอาดให้แก่พระนคร" as given in the Dict. of the Royal Institute).

"นคราทร, pronounced นะ-คะ-รา-ทอน" (na-ka-rah-taun)

This is actually a different word, although rooted from the same source.

By adding า to นคร, it is now "นครา". The only way it can be read is นะ-คะ-รา-ทอน (na-ka-rah-taun).

Reading it as na-korn doesn't fit anymore.

[Rikker]

For words like นคร, [นะคอน] is the nativized (i.e. Thai-ized) pronunciation, while [นะคะระ] is the original (i.e. Indic) pronunciation, and still used in compounds (e.g. นคราทร (as noted), นครินทร์ [นะคะริน] "city of Indra" (as in this case, the vowel may change according to vowel sandhi rules). With Indic loans like this, [นะคะระ] is known as the "combining form" of นคร. The standard notation for a combining/bound form is to use a hyphen. Thus, นคร = นะคอน, but นคร- = นะคะระ.

The combining form of นคร only sounds strange because the nativized version has strayed further from the original than most. Often the combining form is nothing more than adding an extra อะ syllable at the end, a la กรรม [กำ], but กรรม- [กำมะ] in words like กรรมการ [กำมะกาน] or กรรมกร [กำมะกอน].

As for the (sarcastic?) question whether อุดร is pronounced อุดะระ, no, because that versions comes as it is through Khmer. The combining form of อุดร is อุตร- [อุตะระ], as seen in the province name อุตรดิตถ์, which means "northern landing".

[Richard W]

A Word a Day: "นคร" มาจากคำภาษาบาลีและสันสกฤต "นคร" (นะ-คะ-ระ) แปลว่าเมืองใหญ่ กรุง ประกฏในชื่อจังหวัดและชื่อเมืองในประเทศไทย "Nakorn" comes from Pali and Sanskrit languages. "Nakorn" (pronounced Na-ka-ra) means, "a large city or state" or "krung". The word often shows up in the names of provinces and cities within Thailand.

I would simply translate "นคร" (นะ-คะ-ระ) as Nagara.

"'Nakorn' (pronounced Na-ka-ra)".

This surprises me. I thought in Thai it is generally pronounced "Nakorn".

I don't believe that's what the Thai says. I believe the translation, with comments in brackets, should be:

"'Nakhon' [Thai word] comes from the Pali and Sanskrit word 'nagara' [Read in the Roman script, it needs no resolution of implicit vowels.]. It translates as ...".

[Richard W]

Another word which can be pronounced two ways: it is โทรศัพท์

โทร can be read as "tho-ra" as commonly done.

Technically it can also be pronounced as "throe".

I knew an Ajarn-yai (principal) at a major school in Bkk who liked to pronounced it as "throe". He got a kick out of doing it! And because it is legit, it can be done!

I think he was simply being perverse. How can you justify the claim that this word may be pronounced with /throo/? The Sanskrit root is <<dur>>, and many descriptions of Thai deny the existence of the cluster /thr/. (I'm not sure how they account for ทฤษฎี [H]thri[L]sa[M]dii 'theory' - perhaps they just dismiss it as a learned borrowing.)

He also mentioned another word he liked to pronounce against the current.

That word is กลาโหม as the name of the Ministry of Defense.

Common pronunciation is kala-hoem. But this principal preferred to pronounce it as kala-moe.

That's just a perversion.

[Rikker]

He also mentioned another word he liked to pronounce against the current.

That word is กลาโหม as the name of the Ministry of Defense.

Common pronunciation is kala-hoem. But this principal preferred to pronounce it as kala-moe.

That's just a perversion.

And almost certainly meant as a joke, I would imagine. Kind of like น้ำเปล่า = น้ำ-เป-ล่า...

[DavidHouston]

A Word a Day: "นคร" มาจากคำภาษาบาลีและสันสกฤต "นคร" (นะ-คะ-ระ) แปลว่าเมืองใหญ่ กรุง ประกฏในชื่อจังหวัดและชื่อเมืองในประเทศไทย "Nakorn" comes from Pali and Sanskrit languages. "Nakorn" (pronounced Na-ka-ra) means, "a large city or state" or "krung". The word often shows up in the names of provinces and cities within Thailand.

I would simply translate "นคร" (นะ-คะ-ระ) as Nagara.

"'Nakorn' (pronounced Na-ka-ra)".

This surprises me. I thought in Thai it is generally pronounced "Nakorn".

I don't believe that's what the Thai says. I believe the translation, with comments in brackets, should be:

"'Nakhon' [Thai word] comes from the Pali and Sanskrit word 'nagara' [Read in the Roman script, it needs no resolution of implicit vowels.]. It translates as ...".

Richard,

Given the RID definition: "นคร, นคร [นะคอน, นะคะระ] น. เมืองใหญ่, กรุง. (ป., ส.)." and the way they construct definitions, it seems to me that the bracketed items after the initial entry represent the pronunciation alternatives in Thai, and not the pronunciation in the source languages. The source langauges are shown as paranthetical items at the end of the entry, where appropriate, and tend to provide no information about the initial entry other than the original source language. Am I missing something? Thanks.

[Rikker]

(Parenthetical aside--It's probably worth pointing out that there's a missing hyphen from the RID entry DavidHouston quotes. It should read:

นคร, นคร- [นะคอน, นะคะระ] น. เมืองใหญ่, กรุง. (ป., ส.).

This is another of the weaknesses of the latest online version of the Royal Institute Dictionary. Somewhere in the process of putting RID99 online, a lot of hyphens indicating combining forms got stripped out, because someone either didn't notice they were gone or didn't know what they were there for, or both.)

As for the etymological notes in RID, in this case (ป., ส.) indicates that the spelling in Thai does not differ from the spelling in both Pali and Sanskrit, because it gives no other spellings in the original languages. RID does specify the original spelling in the parentheses when it differs from the Thai-ized spelling in one or more source language. For (random) example, the entry for นมัสการ gives the etymology (ป. นมกฺการ; ส. นมสฺการ). So the lack of information is a kind of information.

[Richard W]

Given the RID definition: "นคร, นคร [นะคอน, นะคะระ] น. เมืองใหญ่, กรุง. (ป., ส.)." and the way they construct definitions, it seems to me that the bracketed items after the initial entry represent the pronunciation alternatives in Thai, and not the pronunciation in the source languages. The source langauges are shown as paranthetical items at the end of the entry, where appropriate, and tend to provide no information about the initial entry other than the original source language. Am I missing something?

Compared with my copy (dated 2548 on the cover), you're missing a pair of hyphens. The entry in my copy starts "นคร, นคร- [นะคอน, นะคะระ-]". The hyphen indicates a combining form, that is the first element of a compound. I believe Thai no longer allows word-final implicit vowels in words of more than one letter.

By this logic, พระพุทธเจ้า [H]phra [H]phut [H]tha [F]jao cannot be more than two words, for the key dictionary entry starts "พุทธ, พุทธ-, พุทธะ [พุด, พุดทะ-]". I had thought พุทธ was a hallowed exception to the rule.

P.S. I didn't notice that Rikker had already covered the same point.

[Rikker]

I believe Thai no longer allows word-final implicit vowels in words of more than one letter.

That's right. In RID99, the Royal Institute added an explicit ะ to the end of non-combining forms which previously had only an implicit final vowel. One can compare RID82 and RID99 and see this change.

Re exceptions, I take it you're referring ณ [นะ] and we might also count abbreviations, since they're pronounced with ออ vowels. Are there any other notable exceptions?

[mangkorn]

As for the (sarcastic?) question whether อุดร is pronounced อุดะระ, no, because that versions comes as it is through Khmer. The combining form of อุดร is อุตร- [อุตะระ], as seen in the province name อุตรดิตถ์, which means "northern landing".

Cheers Rikker. Yes, it was partly sarcastic, and part ignorance. Thanks much for that explanation of the Khmer origin. Seems there is also much evolution and overlap, as some Khmer words were also borrowed from Indic languages, no? Fascinating stuff, as always.

[stateman]

How can you justify the claim that this word may be pronounced with /throo/? The Sanskrit root is <<dur>>, and many descriptions of Thai deny the existence of the cluster /thr/. (I'm not sure how they account for ทฤษฎี [H]thri[L]sa[M]dii 'theory' - perhaps they just dismiss it as a learned borrowing.)

He also mentioned another word he liked to pronounce against the current.

That word is กลาโหม as the name of the Ministry of Defense.

Common pronunciation is kala-hoem. But this principal preferred to pronounce it as kala-moe.

That's just a perversion.

He said it with sparkles in his eyes. I wish he read Richard W's post here. That would have made his day and give him the drive to keep pronuncing it like that more often!

I won't argue on the serious side with Richard W, as his post is correct regarding the root word, etc. which is by itself fasinating. But on the lighter side, if he wants to have fun reading it that way, technically he should be able to.

Pronouncing โทร as "thro" is in line with pronouncing โคร as "kro" in Makro store. Would you not agree?

He also mentioned another word he liked to pronounce against the current.

That word is กลาโหม as the name of the Ministry of Defense.

Common pronunciation is kala-hoem. But this principal preferred to pronounce it as kala-moe.

That's just a perversion.

Definitely.

And almost certainly meant as a joke, I would imagine. Kind of like น้ำเปล่า = น้ำ-เป-ล่า...

Yup! That is why using language can be fun, despite its being tedious and boring at times.

A Word a Day: "นคร" มาจากคำภาษาบาลีและสันสกฤต "นคร" (นะ-คะ-ระ) แปลว่าเมืองใหญ่ กรุง ประกฏในชื่อจังหวัดและชื่อเมืองในประเทศไทย "Nakorn" comes from Pali and Sanskrit languages. "Nakorn" (pronounced Na-ka-ra) means, "a large city or state" or "krung". The word often shows up in the names of provinces and cities within Thailand.

I would simply translate "นคร" (นะ-คะ-ระ) as Nagara.

"'Nakorn' (pronounced Na-ka-ra)".

This surprises me. I thought in Thai it is generally pronounced "Nakorn".

I don't believe that's what the Thai says. I believe the translation, with comments in brackets, should be:

"'Nakhon' [Thai word] comes from the Pali and Sanskrit word 'nagara' [Read in the Roman script, it needs no resolution of implicit vowels.]. It translates as ...".

Richard,

Given the RID definition: "นคร, นคร [นะคอน, นะคะระ] น. เมืองใหญ่, กรุง. (ป., ส.)." and the way they construct definitions, it seems to me that the bracketed items after the initial entry represent the pronunciation alternatives in Thai, and not the pronunciation in the source languages. The source langauges are shown as paranthetical items at the end of the entry, where appropriate, and tend to provide no information about the initial entry other than the original source language. Am I missing something? Thanks.

This is a good example of an alternate pronunciation because it can be done, similar to my comments above about โทร and กลาโหม. And again, not that it is always used - just because it can be done. I can picture someone pronouncing นะคะระ Nagara when he talks to his girlfriend, just to make himself feel good!

Comment to David's question, I think it is a matter of choice. Most Thais happen to favor the 1st pronunciation. I always pronounce it nakorn also. But someone may think differently and pronounce nakara. And if he is a Thai, I don't think I would correct him!

Cheers.