Odd Changes From Sanskrit To Thai

[Richard W]

As we have some learned people here (e.g. Meadish Sweetball and Sabaijai), I'd like to know why some Thai words from Sanskrit and Pali have the strange forms they do. I use the convention of deriving Pali from Sanskrit, thought I know there's evidence that that's akin to deriving Swedish from Old Icelandic.

1. Why do we often see พ (normally corresponding to Sanskrit /b/) corresponding to Sanskrit and Pali ว (/w/ or /v/ in Sanskrit, Pali)? I've heard it explained as a Pali feature, but the Pali standard seems to be <v> with only occasional <b>. (nibba:na < nirva:na is probably a special case.)

It might be relevant that the script of Sri Vijaya did not distinguish <b> and <v> - nor, basically, does the modern Bengali alphabet.

2. Where does รร come from? A good example is Sanskrit ธรฺม <dharma> , Pali ธมฺม<dhamma>, but Thai ธรรม /tham/. And why is the Thai ธรรม and not *ธรรม์ /than/?

Sanskrit วรฺค <varga>, Pali วคฺค <vakhkha> (sp?) yields three forms:

วรรค /wak/

พรรค /phak/

พรรค์ /phan/

To me it looks like a Sanskrit spelling but a Pali based pronunciation. However:

3. Why is Sanskrit/Pali -a- in what are now closed syllables normally -o- in Thai. For example, ผล /phala/ in Sanskrit, /phon/ in Thai. This is not universal - we have both พจน์ /phot/ and วจนะ /wacana/ from Sanskrit and Pali วจน /vacana/.

A similar change seems to have happened in Bengali.

[username2004]

I don't know answers to your questions, because they are so technical. But I want to add that we use both Sanskrit and Pali in our language.

วร (wa-ra/wore-ra: Pali) - พระ (pra: Sanskrit) - a monk. And we use พระ, not วร, when referring to a monk/monks.

[username2004]

Other examples:

สิกขา (sik-ka: Pali) = ศึกษา (suek-sa: Sanskrit) = to learn/to study. We use the former when talking about monks' study, and the latter when we refer to general education.

[Richard W]

ศึกษา (suek-sa: Sanskrit) = to learn/to study.

This is a strange one. I'd not noticed its oddness before. Why does Thai have ศึกษา when the Sanskrit is ศิกฺษา /çik.sa:/? The vowels /ae/, /oe/ and /ue/ (short and long) are not normally found in words of Sanskrit or Pali origin.

There is one regular rule which gives an un-Sanskrit looking vowel - ai..y > ae, as in แพทย์ /phaet/ from Sanskrit ไวทฺย /vaidya/. (The Pali form is เวชฺช /vejja/.)

[Richard W]

พระ (pra: Sanskrit) - a monk.

There's no such word in Sanskrit! พระ seems to derive from Sanskrit / Pali วร /vara/. But thank you for your interest and your perceptions.

[username2004]

Oh, thank you Richard W! I always thought "พระ" was Sanskrit. Now I know it's not.

I studied very "basic" Pali and Sanskrit five years ago in high school, so I think I am not entitled to speak about the subject and thus will want to hear more from you and other friends.

[Richard W]

I studied very "basic" Pali and Sanskrit five years ago in high school, so I think I am not entitled to speak about the subject and thus will want to hear more from you and other friends.

At the very least you can comment on what you were taught. Did you see รร used in Pali and Sanskrit, as opposed to Thai? The Royal Institute Dictionary does not use it to spell Pali and Sanskrit, but there may may be several ways of spelling the language in the Thai script. There are in Devanagari - one can write one of the words for tooth either as ทนฺต or as ทํตaccording to the rules for Devanagari.

[username2004]

Richard, I have never seen "รร" used in Pali or Sanskrit. But, in Thai, we do use it. One example I can think of right now:

Thai: กรรม (I *guess* it's not originally Thai.)

Sanskrit: กรฺมนฺ

Pali: กมฺม