Exit Poll Results Show PPP Wins

[Prakanong]

My belief stems from the fact that Thailand is a country where more than half of the respondents to a recent poll suggested that they had no problem with selling their vote.

So this is not a belief stemmed from a judgment of their level of intelligence, rather it is based on whether a large proportion of the populace hold (or lack) the core principals that make democracy function. A democracy that is brought is a sham, nothing more nothing less, so why bother with the pretense?

PS I cant believe that this whole TCC conspiracy theory is still going, Its very entertaining, completely baseless, but then again so are some of the best fantasy novels. I suppose it makes life a little more interesting.

edit: that potential misunderstanding seems credible judging from this thread.

Many would argue that democracy's elsewhere are bought - it may not be "Money Politics" in actual csh changing hands but pork barrel politics, investment in the regions where parties get support etc.

Reversing out of the one man one vote system into a autocratic stat has not really worked elsewhere has it - examples might be nice but would probably be exceptions to the rule that democracies generally do better economically etc.

This can be evidenced by the old communist states of eastern Europe

[younghusband]

Remember Andrew Walker, Australian professor I earler called a moron? Saw him quoted again in Bangkok Post:

"Andrew Walker of the Australian National University's Research School of Pacific and Asian Studies, said the sufficiency economy had become an ideological tool used by the elite to take the pressure off them to address any serious redistribution of income or resources."

This looks as if it was taken straight from Thaivisa forums, and they call it a "science".

Has anyone been to that Thai Studies conference and heard him provide any support for his claim? I seriously doubt it's anything more than cheap propaganda and rhetorics. My first assessment still stands - moron.

Thaivisa posters who share his opinion are just that - posters sharing opinions, they don't go public and claim any scientific status to them.

I would have thought Andrew Walker was a serious and perceptive observer, and as regards the "sufficiency economy" is simply voicing what many Thais believe but dare not articulate.The fact that you call him a "moron" really says more about your unwillingness to enter into debate than anything else.What's happened to you Plus this year, this outburst following your weird posts on Cyber Tower?

[John K]

At the moment factoring in all the events over the last 10 days, what is on the surface should not be the focus, but the back room stuff. Reading that Pojaman wants to meet Prem sends up warning flags. I don’t know if that meeting will happen, and if it does it could rub a lot of people the wrong way and cause suspicion directed at Prem. The fact that the PM told the police to be on alert for EC protesters. This is beginning to sound like potassium nitrate, charcoal, and sulfur being mixed.

[younghusband]

Remember Andrew Walker, Australian professor I earler called a moron? Saw him quoted again in Bangkok Post:

"Andrew Walker of the Australian National University's Research School of Pacific and Asian Studies, said the sufficiency economy had become an ideological tool used by the elite to take the pressure off them to address any serious redistribution of income or resources."

This looks as if it was taken straight from Thaivisa forums, and they call it a "science".

Has anyone been to that Thai Studies conference and heard him provide any support for his claim? I seriously doubt it's anything more than cheap propaganda and rhetorics. My first assessment still stands - moron.

Thaivisa posters who share his opinion are just that - posters sharing opinions, they don't go public and claim any scientific status to them.

And where is your evidence that beaurocrats and technocrats caused the economic growth of Thailand

Where i your evidence the system worked under the Democrats

You call other morons who do not agree with your obsession over haksin but provide no evidence yorself.

Where is your research the sufficiency economy works and is a valiid economic moreon.

What are your qualiofications ion this area- which schools did youattend and gain your advanced degree's - where are your peer reviewed journal articles?

So if someone has a different viewpoin than you regarding Thailand and Thaksin they are morons - thast is so intellectual - hilarious - its like debating with a 3 year old.

Prakanong

This is an anonymous forum and anyone can preternd to have an Ivy League education or similar, but frankly it's a waste of time to get into this.To any well educated person it is in any case easy to discern the educational background and intellect from the content of posts over time.Plus won't thank me for saying it but his contributions over time have been thoughtful and perceptive, and though I almost never agree with him he definitely adds real value.He's been a bit out of sorts recently but so have we all been from time to time.

[quiksilva]

Plus, Software Park is a government agency. It was set up under the National Science and Technology Development Agency, to support the growth of the Thai software industry.

When I look at this as a possibility I must take into consideration that the government currently has a 16 billion Baht, 950,000 square meter office building currently under construction on Chaeng Wattana Road that will complete in April 2009.

It's HUGE! Its not tall though, but you can see it from the expressway near Don Muang, it's a very impressive structure. Think 4 Empire Towers.

I will find out if they are looking to move into spillover space though, as it could be a nice little earner for me. I'll be sure to buy you a beer with the proceeds, if you are right.

[Prakanong]

Remember Andrew Walker, Australian professor I earler called a moron? Saw him quoted again in Bangkok Post:

"Andrew Walker of the Australian National University's Research School of Pacific and Asian Studies, said the sufficiency economy had become an ideological tool used by the elite to take the pressure off them to address any serious redistribution of income or resources."

This looks as if it was taken straight from Thaivisa forums, and they call it a "science".

Has anyone been to that Thai Studies conference and heard him provide any support for his claim? I seriously doubt it's anything more than cheap propaganda and rhetorics. My first assessment still stands - moron.

Thaivisa posters who share his opinion are just that - posters sharing opinions, they don't go public and claim any scientific status to them.

And where is your evidence that beaurocrats and technocrats caused the economic growth of Thailand

Where i your evidence the system worked under the Democrats

You call other morons who do not agree with your obsession over haksin but provide no evidence yorself.

Where is your research the sufficiency economy works and is a valiid economic moreon.

What are your qualiofications ion this area- which schools did youattend and gain your advanced degree's - where are your peer reviewed journal articles?

So if someone has a different viewpoin than you regarding Thailand and Thaksin they are morons - thast is so intellectual - hilarious - its like debating with a 3 year old.

Prakanong

This is an anonymous forum and anyone can preternd to have an Ivy League education or similar, but frankly it's a waste of time to get into this.To any well educated person it is in any case easy to discern the educational background and intellect from the content of posts over time.Plus won't thank me for saying it but his contributions over time have been thoughtful and perceptive, and though I almost never agree with him he definitely adds real value.He's been a bit out of sorts recently but so have we all been from time to time.

To be honset I agree with you - to hitch his wagon to the conspiracy theories posited by the more fantasist obsessives was out of kilter with his usual approach

[blaze]

The question then is, what form of government would you replace democracy with?

well, first of all, there is NOTHING to replace yet

you didn't answer my question, and actually can't answer - because there is no real Democracy anywhere.

however I can answer your question, assuming that hypothetically there is actual example of Democracy somewhere.

the answer is nothing new - rather pretty old - and wasn't invented by me, but by Founding Fathers of US:

Republic according to them was much more preferable to Democracy.

although of course, nowadays some opine that it is neither a Republic anymore.

And who should decide on the form as well as who implements it?

I guess it would depend on the electorate system in particular country according to their form of government?

assuming that it is a Democracy as it supposed to be - majority of people.

otherwise - what's the point to promote and try to archive Democracy by ... non-democratic means ?

Who should decide which form of government is best for Thailand- the majority of the Thais?

well, again if you are talking about such decision within Democracy - then yes, sure - exactly the the majority of the Thais, who else? definitely not a the majority of Lao/ Khmer/ Myanmaris/ Malays / farangs / etc

and also not a minority of Thais either.

otherwise - what Democracy if would be ?

Only the better educated (excluding better educated socialists and agrarian reformers

or anyone who would seek to disturb the glaring economic imbalances in the country).

Or the top generals?

generals of course are out of question.

those better educated (for example as urban middle-class backed Democrats) has previously lost their credit and therefore Elections twice in 2001 and 2005 ! oops, and looks like they've lost once again, in latest Dec 2007 Elections too.

to make assumption that "Only the better educated" can really understand the meaning of Democratic process and therefore have the right to decide all such things - I think it is very .... Un-Democratic !

so, perhaps there must be some other alternative system - where opinions of both "better educated" (and well-to-do) and "uneducated"/ poor can be fairly and properly considered. may be it would vary from country to country. like in case of Thailand, perhaps some proportions have to be calculated according to the numbers of urban/ rural, educated/ uneducated and rich/poor population.

I mean - so that middle class and elite didn't have a chance to say that those barn-nork are trying to take over the power in the country, while at the same time farmers and poor people too felt not discriminated.

perhaps it would be some other formula than "majority" - according to agreed upon proportions.

or whatever else.

but then - it will already go beyond the frames of Democracy, huh?

In fact I would suggest that most North East Thais have, at some level (specifically local)

participated more in the democratic process than have many westerners.

that probably is quite true.

however despite that, Northerners and Isaanees rightly feel deprived when their votes are disregarded. after all - isn't Democratic process about that, choosing their own representatives?

of course, there are people arguing that all those rural folks actually only sell their votes.

but then - they might be less educated, but educated enough to know that those "better educated" and in more higher positions, who are able to run for MP seats, get MUCH MORE money, especially so AFTER elections. therefore poor chaps think: what the heck ! at lest let me get my 500 Baht (or whatever - bag of rice etc.)

I heard that many of those village people - they even try to get money from EACH and every party, if possible.

(after all - elections happen once in 4 years ! better get some cash till chance will come next time !)

BUT ! it doesn't mean they vote for all those who paid them.

many or most, if not all of them, would take money from some party - but would vote for another, or NOT vote at all !

and this is true ! because many become disillusioned by all the flowery words and the lack or absence of results later on.

so, many so called "uneducated" people simply give it up because they realize that it is just a game - big guys wrestling for better share of pie, not bothering at all about promises made or ACTUAL well being of their voters.

therefore eventually those voters loose interest in credibility of fair elections or even in the VERY IDEA and purpose of Elections.

and who can blame them?

oh, and BTW - vote buying happens practically everywhere in the world. just may be Hillary Clinton or her rivals pay in different way than in cash. however the pre-election campaign is ALL about BUYING votes - by promises, deals or whatever.

simply in Thailand it is may be cynically blatant, that's all !

I'm not sure I understand your points- if you are suggesting an alternative to democracy be defined and determined by the wishes of the majority of the citizens- then you are simply endorsing democracy as the best form of government.

There are alternatives: absolute monarchy where in the monarch appoints ministers- the communist model wherein only properly educated people can participate in the running of the state (educated meaning educated in the communist sense)- the fascist model wherein a supreme ruler is regarded as the embodiment of the nation's aspirations- military dictatorships where in the military, whose only claim to legitimacy is the claim that might makes right, appoints a cabinet to govern.

None of these require the endorsement of the majority. But as soon as we start talking about the moral right of the majority to determine the nature of the state, we are talking about.... democracy.

And then the question becomes: how to make it work. This is something every democratic nation deals with- democracy is an ideal- true direct democracy in this age is impossible- we elect leaders not just to represent us but to lead us too- in ways which correspond to our basic values (I for one don't want to be responsible for deciding if sub-clause 32 in a trade pact with Chile is in my nation's best interest).

Of course I want to see better education in Thailand. It would be nice to think that if all Thais were educated they would vote the way I do (or would- but then- maybe they did!).

But what really is needed in the way of education for democracy?

First, the idea that no citizen has more 'rights' than an other.

Second that the nation belongs equally to all.

Third that moral values as applied to society, are not absolute- nobody can claim that their values are correct and those of their neighbors, wrong.

Fourth, that governments belong to the people- not the other way around.

Fifth, that democracy is not intended to make societies rich.

Sixth that democracy is the best means of resolving the tensions among groups in society- but only so long as all those groups are committed to democratic ideals.

Seventh- nobody knows yet what is the perfect economic model or social model to follow- we all bumble along.

On the surface these seem pretty harmless- but in fact- an education that really emphasized them would be more dangerous to the status quo than an armed invasion. So many of those well educated people- the ones with the power to enhance the education of the poor- will content themselves with curriculums that somehow manage to legitimize their social and economic positions.

Edited January 11, 2008 by blaze

[Prakanong]

At the moment factoring in all the events over the last 10 days, what is on the surface should not be the focus, but the back room stuff. Reading that Pojaman wants to meet Prem sends up warning flags. I don't know if that meeting will happen, and if it does it could rub a lot of people the wrong way and cause suspicion directed at Prem. The fact that the PM told the police to be on alert for EC protesters. This is beginning to sound like potassium nitrate, charcoal, and sulfur being mixed.

Are you forgetting they have met before just after th coup?

Why is the meeting now more likely to send up warning flags?

"Privy Council president Prem Tinsulanonda landed himself in hot water yesterday for allowing the wife of ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra to meet him at his residence, as many observers saw the meeting as inappropriate. General Oud Buengbon, Prem's close aide who is member of the National Legislative Assembly (NLA), sent his Mercedes-Benz sedan for Khunying Pojaman Shinawatra and her brother Bhanapot Damapong to see Prem at his residence in the morning. Pojaman and Bhanapot spent 15 minutes at Prem's house before leaving without giving any interview."

From "The Nation" October 2006

PS: how are we getting on with the proof of Cyber Tower ownership - any important updates we should know about?

Realised who Charoen and Capitland are yet?

[Plus]

Plus, Software Park is a government agency. It was set up under the National Science and Technology Development Agency, to support the growth of the Thai software industry.

When I look at this as a possibility I must take into consideration that the government currently has a 16 billion Baht, 950,000 square meter office building currently under construction on Chaeng Wattana Road that will complete in April 2009.

It's HUGE! Its not tall though, but you can see it from the expressway near Don Muang, it's a very impressive structure. Think 4 Empire Towers.

I will find out if they are looking to move into spillover space though, as it could be a nice little earner for me. I'll be sure to buy you a beer with the proceeds, if you are right.

That building is defintely owned by Pojamarn, as far as I know.

I didn't invent the story about Shinawatras renting space in that wretched Ratchada building for Software Park extension.

Here's another interesting, if not puzzling quote:

"Source- Bangkok Post (9/9/03)

News 1/9/03

Land and House Development PLC set to take over Ratchada Square project from owner Ratchada Millennium Group. The project require additional an additional 3Billion Baht investment to complet. Source said the money will come from the coffer of Khun Ying Pojaman Shinawatra, wife of Premier Thaksin..."

http://www.geocities.com/topsyturvy_6051/news.html

There IS a link between them, you can clarify how exactly they are connected, but why deny it without any concrete evidence?

And remember - if the fire was a message for Pojamarn, she most probably got it. Just like exploding Boing probably scared Thaksin shitless when it happened.

And where is your evidence that beaurocrats and technocrats caused the economic growth of Thailand

Where i your evidence the system worked under the Democrats

You call other morons who do not agree with your obsession over haksin but provide no evidence yorself.

Where is your research the sufficiency economy works and is a valiid economic moreon.

What are your qualiofications ion this area- which schools did youattend and gain your advanced degree's - where are your peer reviewed journal articles?

So if someone has a different viewpoin than you regarding Thailand and Thaksin they are morons - thast is so intellectual

That's why I post here anonymously and don't try to make myself bigger than I am at the Thai Studies conference.

And in case you missed it - I call him a moron for taking our typical forum banter into a public area, not for having his own opinion.

To be taken any more seriously he MUST show some evidence. I don't, I can just tell you all to bugger off and never post here again, like some of our regulars did. I woulnd't gon on public record without some evidence, but he thinks it's ok, that's why I called him a moron, for the lack of better word. What do they call people who present political propaganda under the guise of science?

[Prakanong]

Plus, Software Park is a government agency. It was set up under the National Science and Technology Development Agency, to support the growth of the Thai software industry.

When I look at this as a possibility I must take into consideration that the government currently has a 16 billion Baht, 950,000 square meter office building currently under construction on Chaeng Wattana Road that will complete in April 2009.

It's HUGE! Its not tall though, but you can see it from the expressway near Don Muang, it's a very impressive structure. Think 4 Empire Towers.

I will find out if they are looking to move into spillover space though, as it could be a nice little earner for me. I'll be sure to buy you a beer with the proceeds, if you are right.

That building is defintely owned by Pojamarn, as far as I know.

I didn't invent the story about Shinawatras renting space in that wretched Ratchada building for Software Park extension.

Here's another interesting, if not puzzling quote:

"Source- Bangkok Post (9/9/03)

News 1/9/03

Land and House Development PLC set to take over Ratchada Square project from owner Ratchada Millennium Group. The project require additional an additional 3Billion Baht investment to complet. Source said the money will come from the coffer of Khun Ying Pojaman Shinawatra, wife of Premier Thaksin..."

http://www.geocities.com/topsyturvy_6051/news.html

There IS a link between them, you can clarify how exactly they are connected, but why deny it without any concrete evidence?

And remember - if the fire was a message for Pojamarn, she most probably got it. Just like exploding Boing probably scared Thaksin shitless when it happened.

And where is your evidence that beaurocrats and technocrats caused the economic growth of Thailand

Where i your evidence the system worked under the Democrats

You call other morons who do not agree with your obsession over haksin but provide no evidence yorself.

Where is your research the sufficiency economy works and is a valiid economic moreon.

What are your qualiofications ion this area- which schools did youattend and gain your advanced degree's - where are your peer reviewed journal articles?

So if someone has a different viewpoin than you regarding Thailand and Thaksin they are morons - thast is so intellectual

That's why I post here anonymously and don't try to make myself bigger than I am at the Thai Studies conference.

And in case you missed it - I call him a moron for taking our typical forum banter into a public area, not for having his own opinion.

To be taken any more seriously he MUST show some evidence. I don't, I can just tell you all to bugger off and never post here again, like some of our regulars did. I woulnd't gon on public record without some evidence, but he thinks it's ok, that's why I called him a moron, for the lack of better word. What do they call people who present political propaganda under the guise of science?

I do not think Mr Walker is the only economist to dismiss the economic theory of "Sufficiency economy" and I do not think those others base their idea's on TV either.

And just out of interst here is a link to papers regarding SE at the Thammasat Conference

http://www.thaiconference.tu.ac.th/1011abs...Y%20ECONOMY.doc

Edited January 11, 2008 by Prakanong

[meemiathai]

A very interesting thing I learned today, but apparently the 52 storey building that burned yesterday is owned by non other than Pojaman Shinawatra and the fire was nothing more than a good old fashion Thai style message to her. I need someone to verify this but I do trust my source.

I knew that quite for a while, having lived in that area for 3-4 years already.

I think I tried even to say the same thing as you in this thread already - that as soon as she arrived (on Tue morning), somehow fire happens very next day.

with 5mln Baht paid for bail out - that losses due to that fire perhaps are nothing much than just a acknowledgement of a "message" indeed.

I think this will be like everyone knowing Thaksin did it but finding the proof is a another story. So in this case like you said, everyone in the area knows who owns it. Depending on if the AEC needs to know or not it may not hit the media. In any case it is an interesting twist.

Why then would TCC Land then claim it as one of theirs?

A JV between two reputable companies - one with business links to the CPB

Do you think they are lying, covering up for the Shinawatra family or any other consiracy theory?

Do you know who owns all the buildings in the area you live?

We are awaiting your reporting back with proof by February 1st but no-one is holding ther breath - if you break the story of this cover up you can join Woodward and Bernstein.

But- I was wrong....

A refreshing statement- one we don't get often in this forum.

Those who advocate better education for the Thais would do well to start with educating them about the danger in listening to and passing on rumors- and I'm not kidding. Many have said that the Thais need education in political science. No- they need education in science- a basic grasp of what qualifies as fact and what qualifies as speculation- or rumor- or wishful thinking.

Much of what has transpired in the last two years has been based on unsubstantiated claims- which have then become 'givens'.

And most of those claims are coming from people who have 'education'.

Not only thais but farangs also.

And now we know that the building fire was arson and thaksin was behind it, is that right? Facts, right?

[John K]

Why is the meeting now more likely to send up warning flags?

A fair question, and I will take a moment to answer it for you.

If you take a look a Pojaman from a distance you will see a person who skipped town to avoid arrest along with her husband who is still more or less a fugitive. (I don’t know if the term fugitive applies before arrest) Pojaman returned to town just when it seems her Husband’s attempts at getting back into power may be going down the tubes. Now a proposed meeting with Prem.

It all looks and sounds like high end deal cutting to avoid justice and also to go around the Constitutional tribunal ruling on the TRT and the 111 banned people. That is sure to rub some people wrong.

One by one I am seeing the elements gather for confrontation and it can all be traced back to Thaksin. My concern is they seem to be gathering quickly.

[Prakanong]

An abstract of one paper rom the conference it may be useful to quote in full cionsidering the thread discussions on democracy and authoriatarianism as a road map for Thailand

http://www.thaiconference.tu.ac.th/1011abs...%20POLITICS.doc

"

What Thailand Needs: Democracy, Authoritarianism or Authoritarian Democracy?

Zhang Xizhen, School of International Studies, Peking University

Most developing countries are faced with a serious social problem: poverty, big gap between the rich and the poor, religious conflicts, separatism, political instability…… To deal with all of these problems the most urgent two things to be down are first to establish political stability and second to develop economy. Economic development is the most profound foundation to resolve all other problems, however economic development is conditioned by political stability. For most developing countries, therefore, first thing to be down is to establish political stability.

What kind of political system is able to establish political stability? The Western style liberal democracy? No. This system had been experienced in many countries and there is no any successful case including in Indonesia, the Philippines, even Thailand. This democracy has never brought about social development, economic prosperity and political stability. Causes of the failure of the West style democracy are that the public mass and politicians are not yet mature enough to honestly follow the rule of game of democracy. This is why free elections are always conducted with so many kinds of frauds and bribery. The other cause of the failure is weakness of coalition governments that many parties form. It is impossible for a weak government to efficiently maintain stability and promote economic development.

Obviously authoritarianism is conducive to establishing stability because of its strong government and without democracy and opposition. But full authoritarianism has another shortcoming that there are no any other political forces to supervise and check the strong government so that it easily abuses political power for dictators’ own benefits. Authoritarian governments are mostly able to realize stability and promote economic development if they are honest and clean, and focus on national economic development as well. However it seems there is no case like this in Southeast Asia at list. Therefore we can’t expect that a clean and honest authoritarian government will appear in the future.

In this case authoritarian democracy is the best choice. Authoritarian democracy is characterized by a strong government with democratic supervision. This system is carried out very well in Singapore, Malaysia, and Vietnam. Their rapid developments benefit from this system. Thailand indeed needs such authoritarian democracy that can efficiently accelerate Thai social and economic development otherwise it will lag behind most other ASEAN countries. To establish this system the one party domination system is needed and formation of large parties should be encouraged. It is true that Thaksin’s serious corruption took place under the domination of Thaksin’s Thai Rak Thai Party that dominated in the parliament, but the one party domination system is not certainly to lead to serious corruption like Thaksin’s. The key point is 1) if the leader of the dominant party is corrupted or not; 2) many honest elite are drew into the core leadership of the party or not; 3) if the Constitution and laws are exactly implemented or not.

How to establish a strong party? First one leader of party should be chosen. He should be a competent politician with sense of responsibility, strong character and great charisma. Second there is a group of talented elite who work together with the leader. Third, the party must represent interests of people from all society and gain support from them as much as possible. Among the three factors the most crucial one is to have the wise and competent party leader. Thai people, especially veteran politicians with strong sense of responsibility must pay attention to seeking such leader. To seek such political leader is the most important task for Thai people today."

[Prakanong]

Why is the meeting now more likely to send up warning flags?

A fair question, and I will take a moment to answer it for you.

If you take a look a Pojaman from a distance you will see a person who skipped town to avoid arrest along with her husband who is still more or less a fugitive. (I don't know if the term fugitive applies before arrest) Pojaman returned to town just when it seems her Husband's attempts at getting back into power may be going down the tubes. Now a proposed meeting with Prem.

It all looks and sounds like high end deal cutting to avoid justice and also to go around the Constitutional tribunal ruling on the TRT and the 111 banned people. That is sure to rub some people wrong.

One by one I am seeing the elements gather for confrontation and it can all be traced back to Thaksin. My concern is they seem to be gathering quickly.

Sorry that is fluff.

You think Prem is going to do some deal cutting now - do you think he is going to try and influence the EC etc?

Of course not and Pojaman is not that daft to think so either.

Which elements are gathering for confrontation - pray tell?

[blaze]

An abstract of one paper rom the conference it may be useful to quote in full cionsidering the thread discussions on democracy and authoriatarianism as a road map for Thailand

http://www.thaiconference.tu.ac.th/1011abs...%20POLITICS.doc

"

What Thailand Needs: Democracy, Authoritarianism or Authoritarian Democracy?

Zhang Xizhen, School of International Studies, Peking University

Most developing countries are faced with a serious social problem: poverty, big gap between the rich and the poor, religious conflicts, separatism, political instability…… To deal with all of these problems the most urgent two things to be down are first to establish political stability and second to develop economy. Economic development is the most profound foundation to resolve all other problems, however economic development is conditioned by political stability. For most developing countries, therefore, first thing to be down is to establish political stability.

What kind of political system is able to establish political stability? The Western style liberal democracy? No. This system had been experienced in many countries and there is no any successful case including in Indonesia, the Philippines, even Thailand. This democracy has never brought about social development, economic prosperity and political stability. Causes of the failure of the West style democracy are that the public mass and politicians are not yet mature enough to honestly follow the rule of game of democracy. This is why free elections are always conducted with so many kinds of frauds and bribery. The other cause of the failure is weakness of coalition governments that many parties form. It is impossible for a weak government to efficiently maintain stability and promote economic development.

Obviously authoritarianism is conducive to establishing stability because of its strong government and without democracy and opposition. But full authoritarianism has another shortcoming that there are no any other political forces to supervise and check the strong government so that it easily abuses political power for dictators’ own benefits. Authoritarian governments are mostly able to realize stability and promote economic development if they are honest and clean, and focus on national economic development as well. However it seems there is no case like this in Southeast Asia at list. Therefore we can’t expect that a clean and honest authoritarian government will appear in the future.

In this case authoritarian democracy is the best choice. Authoritarian democracy is characterized by a strong government with democratic supervision. This system is carried out very well in Singapore, Malaysia, and Vietnam. Their rapid developments benefit from this system. Thailand indeed needs such authoritarian democracy that can efficiently accelerate Thai social and economic development otherwise it will lag behind most other ASEAN countries. To establish this system the one party domination system is needed and formation of large parties should be encouraged. It is true that Thaksin’s serious corruption took place under the domination of Thaksin’s Thai Rak Thai Party that dominated in the parliament, but the one party domination system is not certainly to lead to serious corruption like Thaksin’s. The key point is 1) if the leader of the dominant party is corrupted or not; 2) many honest elite are drew into the core leadership of the party or not; 3) if the Constitution and laws are exactly implemented or not.

How to establish a strong party? First one leader of party should be chosen. He should be a competent politician with sense of responsibility, strong character and great charisma. Second there is a group of talented elite who work together with the leader. Third, the party must represent interests of people from all society and gain support from them as much as possible. Among the three factors the most crucial one is to have the wise and competent party leader. Thai people, especially veteran politicians with strong sense of responsibility must pay attention to seeking such leader. To seek such political leader is the most important task for Thai people today."

It sounds like he's simply advocating a strong government- limited 'human rights'- diligent courts and law enforcement- and he could be right. But unless that strong government meets with approval from the military and its vision for the nation corresponds to that of the elites and aristocracy- it's not going to happen- yet.

[meemiathai]

People with education are not necessarily more honest, they just know their price better. We've heard it many times here - Thaksin made villagers realise that their vote counts, that by voting they can really improve their lives, bla bla bla. I don't believe there's much substance in this claim, just look how PPP still relies on good old fashined 200 per vote routine.

So you are saying all these people are stupid and did not know they had been fooled by thaksin even after all these years but you as a farang are smart enough to know what he was actually doing?

[meemiathai]

They set a precedent wherein the poor realized that through the electoral system, they would be able to get a more equal piece of the pie.

Just a quick note about "equal piece" - farmers constitute 60% of the population but contribute only 10% of GDP. What do you think should be their fair share. 60%, or 10%, or something in between? There's big difference between 10 and 60, it is bound to produce a great debate (not for this thread, though).

It must be acknowledged that there are different views on how much farmers are entitled to.

Are you sure about the figures? 60% population and only 10% GDP? I doubt it. Maybe the government is just playing with statistics?

[meemiathai]

Why people are still arguing Ratchada building link to Shinawatras? So they don't own it, they are just prospective tenants, probably the biggest ones. That's one big motive for burning "their" building already, not that I believe arson rumours.

Can you find some information that they were not interested in renting there at all?

Come on Plus, don't hitch your wagon to the ludicrous propositions being put forward on the Cyber Tower fire.Anyway if arson is ruled out, as seems to be now confirmed, it's a non-event fom the political standpoint.

Can someone explain to me why in the world would this building fire be related to the coming back of thaksin's wife? Even if it is true that the shinawatra's own them? I really do not understand the logic.

[Plus]

I do not think Mr Walker is the only economist to dismiss the economic theory of "Sufficiency economy" and I do not think those others base their idea's on TV either.

I didn't call those others morons. In fact I called Walker a moron after reading how Thailand lacks a culture of respect for the voice of the majority.

Chavalit was accepted as PM in 1996 without any trouble despite wideheld perception he had the dirtiest campaign in history, same for Thaksin, and Constitution Court bent over for him in 2001 becasue he won the elections. No one protested against Thaksin in 2005 either.

MeemiaThai - I'm not sure about numbers, I gave them off the top of my head, but they are fairly accurate. Maybe it's 50% and 10% - doesn't change the point.

So you are saying all these people are stupid - no that's your words, not mine. I said they lack knowledge. I'm not going to argue if farmers fully understand the long term damage Thaksin did to the country or if they have deep knowledge of various issues I don't understand fully myself. Some of them believe Thaksin paid IMF out of his own pocket, that says alot already.

If Pojamarn had big plans for that property and the first day she comes back to Thailand it goes in flames, it's not hard to see a connection, is it? I don't know if it's real or not, the message is largely symbolic anyway.

Software Park is a government agency but I bet all participating private companies pay the rent, and it doesn't go to the government. Shinawatras could have had a dozen floors fully occupied by fast growing businesses. They could still have them, mind you, it's just there was this fire.... Accidents happen all the time. It would be unfortunate if something else would happen.

There's this very interestin article by Madelein Albright:

Democracy: the global aura is gone

She doesn't mention Thailand, but there's this description of Latin America that would fit Thaskin's Thailand:

"In parts of Latin America, democratic consolidation has been threatened by a new generation of "caudillo"-style leader, adept at pleasing crowds via economic populism while determined to eviscerate competing centers of power. Though narrowly rebuffed by Venezuelan voters in a recent referendum, Hugo Chavez still appears to equate his right to the presidency with the matrimonial vow: until death do us part."

[hammered]

On another front I came across a story Thursday that suggest Thaksin may be running out of available cash.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...icle3324877.ece

If that is the case it makes you wonder how much he spent on buying votes in Isaan.

It also begs the question of how Manchester City are heavily linked to two of Marseilles stars in the current transfer window if Mr. T is about to run out of dosh, which I doubt. The wealthy also have acess to huge credit lines both officially and unofficially through networks.

[Prakanong]

An abstract of one paper rom the conference it may be useful to quote in full cionsidering the thread discussions on democracy and authoriatarianism as a road map for Thailand

http://www.thaiconference.tu.ac.th/1011abs...%20POLITICS.doc

"

What Thailand Needs: Democracy, Authoritarianism or Authoritarian Democracy?

Zhang Xizhen, School of International Studies, Peking University

Most developing countries are faced with a serious social problem: poverty, big gap between the rich and the poor, religious conflicts, separatism, political instability…… To deal with all of these problems the most urgent two things to be down are first to establish political stability and second to develop economy. Economic development is the most profound foundation to resolve all other problems, however economic development is conditioned by political stability. For most developing countries, therefore, first thing to be down is to establish political stability.

What kind of political system is able to establish political stability? The Western style liberal democracy? No. This system had been experienced in many countries and there is no any successful case including in Indonesia, the Philippines, even Thailand. This democracy has never brought about social development, economic prosperity and political stability. Causes of the failure of the West style democracy are that the public mass and politicians are not yet mature enough to honestly follow the rule of game of democracy. This is why free elections are always conducted with so many kinds of frauds and bribery. The other cause of the failure is weakness of coalition governments that many parties form. It is impossible for a weak government to efficiently maintain stability and promote economic development.

Obviously authoritarianism is conducive to establishing stability because of its strong government and without democracy and opposition. But full authoritarianism has another shortcoming that there are no any other political forces to supervise and check the strong government so that it easily abuses political power for dictators' own benefits. Authoritarian governments are mostly able to realize stability and promote economic development if they are honest and clean, and focus on national economic development as well. However it seems there is no case like this in Southeast Asia at list. Therefore we can't expect that a clean and honest authoritarian government will appear in the future.

In this case authoritarian democracy is the best choice. Authoritarian democracy is characterized by a strong government with democratic supervision. This system is carried out very well in Singapore, Malaysia, and Vietnam. Their rapid developments benefit from this system. Thailand indeed needs such authoritarian democracy that can efficiently accelerate Thai social and economic development otherwise it will lag behind most other ASEAN countries. To establish this system the one party domination system is needed and formation of large parties should be encouraged. It is true that Thaksin's serious corruption took place under the domination of Thaksin's Thai Rak Thai Party that dominated in the parliament, but the one party domination system is not certainly to lead to serious corruption like Thaksin's. The key point is 1) if the leader of the dominant party is corrupted or not; 2) many honest elite are drew into the core leadership of the party or not; 3) if the Constitution and laws are exactly implemented or not.

How to establish a strong party? First one leader of party should be chosen. He should be a competent politician with sense of responsibility, strong character and great charisma. Second there is a group of talented elite who work together with the leader. Third, the party must represent interests of people from all society and gain support from them as much as possible. Among the three factors the most crucial one is to have the wise and competent party leader. Thai people, especially veteran politicians with strong sense of responsibility must pay attention to seeking such leader. To seek such political leader is the most important task for Thai people today."

It sounds like he's simply advocating a strong government- limited 'human rights'- diligent courts and law enforcement- and he could be right. But unless that strong government meets with approval from the military and its vision for the nation corresponds to that of the elites and aristocracy- it's not going to happen- yet.

Yes the removal of Thaksion was never about corruption etc as they have seen worse before and a lot of them have had their hands inth pie to.

It was about the futire of certain instiotutions as Thaksin became too popular, the di-enfranchisment of certain sections of the military and the Bangkok middle class and elites thinking the poor were getting more than their fare share - a view of some farang interlopers on this thread too

This is an interesting paper then - the elites support Democracy?

"The (More Than) Half-Full Glass: Thailand's Democracy in Comparative Perspective

Daniel C. Lynch, University of Southern California

Democratization is an inherently international process entailing a state’s acceptance of the constitutive norms of liberal global culture. Today, global culture pressures states worldwide to accept democracy as the cardinal principle of domestic governance. Thailand’s comparatively successful ongoing democratization can be interpreted partly as a process of socialization to global culture. Why?

This paper attempts an answer by contrasting Thai responses to liberal global culture with those of China, where the ruling Chinese Communist Party (CCP) rejects democratization partly because it is perceived liberal global culture to be exclusively Western. To the CCP, the fundamental state-based ecology of international relations implies the impossibility of there being any truly global culture. Accepting democratization in this context would lead to domination at the hands of foreigners and China’s “decentering” in world history.

In striking contrast, educated Thai elites generally accept democracy as universally-valid. One reason is that Thai national identity is embedded in Buddhism which “socially-engaged Buddhists” argue strongly promotes the virtues of local-level civic engagement and activism. This would not be possible in China, where the CCP asserts a monopoly over both virtue and the responsibility for solving social problems. Understanding how the Thai situation differs significantly from the Chinese case sheds new light on Thailand’s relatively successful struggle to achieve democratic consolidation and deepening.

Edited January 11, 2008 by Prakanong

[Prakanong]

On another front I came across a story Thursday that suggest Thaksin may be running out of available cash.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...icle3324877.ece

If that is the case it makes you wonder how much he spent on buying votes in Isaan.

It also begs the question of how Manchester City are heavily linked to two of Marseilles stars in the current transfer window if Mr. T is about to run out of dosh, which I doubt. The wealthy also have acess to huge credit lines both officially and unofficially through networks.

That link was pretty much to a non-story but the obsessive compulsives will clutch at any straw.

[hammered]

At the moment factoring in all the events over the last 10 days, what is on the surface should not be the focus, but the back room stuff. Reading that Pojaman wants to meet Prem sends up warning flags. I don't know if that meeting will happen, and if it does it could rub a lot of people the wrong way and cause suspicion directed at Prem. The fact that the PM told the police to be on alert for EC protesters. This is beginning to sound like potassium nitrate, charcoal, and sulfur being mixed.

Are you forgetting they have met before just after th coup?

Why is the meeting now more likely to send up warning flags?

"Privy Council president Prem Tinsulanonda landed himself in hot water yesterday for allowing the wife of ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra to meet him at his residence, as many observers saw the meeting as inappropriate. General Oud Buengbon, Prem's close aide who is member of the National Legislative Assembly (NLA), sent his Mercedes-Benz sedan for Khunying Pojaman Shinawatra and her brother Bhanapot Damapong to see Prem at his residence in the morning. Pojaman and Bhanapot spent 15 minutes at Prem's house before leaving without giving any interview."

From "The Nation" October 2006

PS: how are we getting on with the proof of Cyber Tower ownership - any important updates we should know about?

Realised who Charoen and Capitland are yet?

Over the many years I have been here virtually every politician has spent time at Gen. Prem's residence especially during times of crisis. I dont really need to point out who Gen Prem works for, but enough to say in times of crisis avenues are kept open. Of course PPP or whoever, are going to talk to him whatver Samak or the white dove sympathisers say, and by th eway in this it does expose an ideological split between pragmatists and shall we say the more revolutuonary wing in the alliance that Mr. T has put together called PPP. However, these potential big differences will not surface until a much later date as now the they are united in a common stance.

By the way. Gen Oud is according to the grapevine a potetial candidate for defence minister under the PPP. Sorry to bring rumor up but sometimes it adds interest. As always though please regard it as rumour only.

[Prakanong]

At the moment factoring in all the events over the last 10 days, what is on the surface should not be the focus, but the back room stuff. Reading that Pojaman wants to meet Prem sends up warning flags. I don't know if that meeting will happen, and if it does it could rub a lot of people the wrong way and cause suspicion directed at Prem. The fact that the PM told the police to be on alert for EC protesters. This is beginning to sound like potassium nitrate, charcoal, and sulfur being mixed.

Are you forgetting they have met before just after th coup?

Why is the meeting now more likely to send up warning flags?

"Privy Council president Prem Tinsulanonda landed himself in hot water yesterday for allowing the wife of ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra to meet him at his residence, as many observers saw the meeting as inappropriate. General Oud Buengbon, Prem's close aide who is member of the National Legislative Assembly (NLA), sent his Mercedes-Benz sedan for Khunying Pojaman Shinawatra and her brother Bhanapot Damapong to see Prem at his residence in the morning. Pojaman and Bhanapot spent 15 minutes at Prem's house before leaving without giving any interview."

From "The Nation" October 2006

PS: how are we getting on with the proof of Cyber Tower ownership - any important updates we should know about?

Realised who Charoen and Capitland are yet?

Over the many years I have been here virtually every politician has spent time at Gen. Prem's residence especially during times of crisis. I dont really need to point out who Gen Prem works for, but enough to say in times of crisis avenues are kept open. Of course PPP or whoever, are going to talk to him whatver Samak or the white dove sympathisers say, and by th eway in this it does expose an ideological split between pragmatists and shall we say the more revolutuonary wing in the alliance that Mr. T has put together called PPP. However, these potential big differences will not surface until a much later date as now the they are united in a common stance.

By the way. Gen Oud is according to the grapevine a potetial candidate for defence minister under the PPP. Sorry to bring rumor up but sometimes it adds interest. As always though please regard it as rumour only.

If PPP do form a govt the position of Defence Minister promises to be one of the more interesting portfolio's. The next army reshuffle after that even more so.

I am up in Bangkok on business next week and taking a bunch of our thai staff out for a meal and a few drinks - these are all middle class women in their 20's to one who is 30. All with ovesea's degree's and who travel extensively also outside of Thailand - I am looking forward to talking to a couple of them regarding their view but with discretion as some of them talk about thai politics more than others.

It will be interesting to contrast their view with some of the "Working class" girls I know who were very happy just after the election and telling me with glee, "Thaksin come home"

Edited January 11, 2008 by Prakanong

[hammered]

The "deabte" (sic) on here certainly seems to have covered a lot of ground since my last visit, so much to comment on....

Interesting the discussion on democracy. maybe more interesting is the meduim to long term shape it will take as the hegemony of China ion the region becomes greater, which it will. This alone could affect debates on democracy certainly within Thailand and other close neighbours to China. Maybe the more US/Euro-centric models of democracy will end up being replaced by a more Eat Asian version which we westerners may see as less democratic although maybe we should look at the lack closer to home as some of our role models are not as democratic as they could be, and are we jumping up and down about that as much as we do about Thailand's system?

Similarly the economic "debate" seems to have spluttered on. It got me thinking about how even in "advanced" western countries an economic system has not really been established that can take care of all, or more precisely an maybe it is not the economic system but how the pie is divided. If one takes the high ideal of not actually leaving a fairly large minority in perpetual poverty it seems the indicated way ahead is a proper social security system plus also access to loans for development. Maybe Thailands first attempts at this have been a bit bungled, not properly costed or even linked to a certain tax and even corrupt but with such a poor division of wealth (the worst outside Latin America I am told, dyunno if its true) and a huge poverty stricken underclass these attempts are what is needed. I would add that decent eduation for all is also a must, and at some point a countrywide income tax system needs to be established for those making more than a certain amount.

Why the paranoia about a deal between the two sides in this conflict? It's going to happen at some stage unless all out conflcit is seen as preferable. Persoanlly I would rather a dodgy deal I can bith and moan about than a bunch of dead people. Plus I like most of us must keep in mind that at th eend of the day it is the Thai people's country (I am not Thai) and if they (or the majority of them) get what they want that is good enough for me even if I dont personally like it.

Also on deals. It couldnt just be that all the red card and disolution talk on one side and all the mass demos and invisible hands on the other are part of a hard negotiating position could it? A bity like we wont talk about this if you dont do that, and well OK we'll let Suphanharn become PM (yuk) if you dont do that and......

Interesting Abhisit asking the Dem memeber to tone down the court accustaions. Either part of an attempt to calm things down or a distancing the Dems from a court disolution? Unless of course it is at face value, but this is Thai politics.

As to who owns a building or who is going to rent space in it. It seems pretty clear cut that the building is owned by a huge Thai tycoon who probbaly wouldnt take kindly to being described as a mere front person for the Shins. Admittedly I dont waste much of my time reading up on little fires in buildings so I do stnad to be corrected on this and apologize in advance if my assumption of ownership is infact erroneous.

By the way Andrew walker can be freely criticized on his New Mandala website if anyone wants to, and people often do. He does seem to get accused of niavety relating to Thai politcs and particulalrly to TRT at times. Anyway point is head over and comment if you feel the need. He does seem to allow contrary opinions to be posted in most cases.

[Lilawadee]

I am up in Bangkok on business next week and taking a bunch of our thai staff out for a meal and a few drinks - these are all middle class women in their 20's to one who is 30. All with ovesea's degree's and who travel extensively also outside of Thailand - I am looking forward to talking to a couple of them regarding their view but with discretion as some of them talk about thai politics more than others.

It will be interesting to contrast their view with some of the "Working class" girls I know who were very happy just after the election and telling me with glee, "Thaksin come home"

I think you've just set yourself up for a really low blow.. [Hopefully this will pre-empt that and take some wind out of some pink paper napkins posing as sails.]

Please do also give us their views, though I have a feeling it'll be fairly predictable.

Edited January 11, 2008 by Lilawadee

[Prakanong]

I am up in Bangkok on business next week and taking a bunch of our thai staff out for a meal and a few drinks - these are all middle class women in their 20's to one who is 30. All with ovesea's degree's and who travel extensively also outside of Thailand - I am looking forward to talking to a couple of them regarding their view but with discretion as some of them talk about thai politics more than others.

It will be interesting to contrast their view with some of the "Working class" girls I know who were very happy just after the election and telling me with glee, "Thaksin come home"

I think you've just set yourself up for a really low blow.. [Hopefully this will pre-empt that and take some wind out of some pink paper napkins posing as sails.]

Please do also give us their views, though I have a feeling it'll be fairly predictable.

I doubt their views are predictable - its amazing what they do not know about their own country and these have attended the top Uni's there ie Chula, Thammasat or Mahidol but life sciences or pharamcy degree's not politics, economics etc - MBA's too although the Harvard MBA has now moved on.

The colleague I know best I have spoken about subjects considered taboo and also about Black May. October 6th etc. She did not know about this as she grew up outside Thailand where her families have business but did ask her mother when we got back from India who then told her about it.

She wanted to borrow the book that we can not mention too but I forgot to take it to the PI when we went there.

They do talk about taboo subjects around the Bangkok dinner tables just like most other Thai's.

[sriracha john]

Suwit leads Yongyuth scrutiny

One of the judges who voted against deposed PM Thaksin Shinawatra in the Shinawatra share concealment case was appointed yesterday to head the Election Commission's new sub-panel to investigate allegations of vote-buying by People Power Party Yongyuth Tiyapairat. Suwit Thirapong, a former Constitution Court judge, now heads the five-member sub-committee set up by the EC yesterday to take over the alleged poll fraud case from the Special Branch Police, a source at the poll agency said. Suwit is best remembered as being one of the seven judges sitting in the Constitution Court who voted against then PM Thaksin on Aug 3, 2001, when he fought asset concealment charges with the NCCC. Thaksin barely survived the case as eight judges voted to dismiss the charges. Mr Suwit's task now is to lead a team which includes two legal experts and two officials from the poll agency to decide the fate of Yongyuth. But the EC officials sitting on the sub-committee cannot vote in the case. EC secretary-general Suthiphon Thaveechaiyagarn said the new sub-panel should be more acceptable to Yongyuth, who had opposed the appointment of Special Branch police officers to handle the case. The new sub-panel has been told to work quickly to finish the case, he added. Today, Yongyuth will be invited to the EC to watch a VCD allegedly recording him bribing local leaders in his home province of Chiang Rai to campaign for him and PPP candidates in the Dec 23 general election.

Meanwhile, the EC yesterday voted four to one to disqualify Prasop Busarakam, a winning PPP candidate in Udon Thani's constituency 3, for breaking the election law by slandering other candidates instead of ordering him to run again in a by-election. Prasop was previously yellow-carded in a separate case. The poll agency yesterday endorsed 15 winning candidates in the constituency system, 13 of them from the PPP, one from the Chart Thai and one from the Democrat party.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/11Jan2008_news01.php

[Siripon]

At the moment factoring in all the events over the last 10 days, what is on the surface should not be the focus, but the back room stuff. Reading that Pojaman wants to meet Prem sends up warning flags. I don't know if that meeting will happen, and if it does it could rub a lot of people the wrong way and cause suspicion directed at Prem. The fact that the PM told the police to be on alert for EC protesters. This is beginning to sound like potassium nitrate, charcoal, and sulfur being mixed.

Are you forgetting they have met before just after th coup?

Why is the meeting now more likely to send up warning flags?

"Privy Council president Prem Tinsulanonda landed himself in hot water yesterday for allowing the wife of ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra to meet him at his residence, as many observers saw the meeting as inappropriate. General Oud Buengbon, Prem's close aide who is member of the National Legislative Assembly (NLA), sent his Mercedes-Benz sedan for Khunying Pojaman Shinawatra and her brother Bhanapot Damapong to see Prem at his residence in the morning. Pojaman and Bhanapot spent 15 minutes at Prem's house before leaving without giving any interview."

From "The Nation" October 2006

PS: how are we getting on with the proof of Cyber Tower ownership - any important updates we should know about?

Realised who Charoen and Capitland are yet?

Over the many years I have been here virtually every politician has spent time at Gen. Prem's residence especially during times of crisis. I dont really need to point out who Gen Prem works for, but enough to say in times of crisis avenues are kept open. Of course PPP or whoever, are going to talk to him whatver Samak or the white dove sympathisers say, and by th eway in this it does expose an ideological split between pragmatists and shall we say the more revolutuonary wing in the alliance that Mr. T has put together called PPP. However, these potential big differences will not surface until a much later date as now the they are united in a common stance.

By the way. Gen Oud is according to the grapevine a potetial candidate for defence minister under the PPP. Sorry to bring rumor up but sometimes it adds interest. As always though please regard it as rumour only.

The Old Power starts to make inroads.

The approval of the transfer of Thaksin's close ally and classmate Police-General Jumpol Manmai from the PM Office back to the headquarters of the police yesterday by the Police Commission, chaired by Khun Surayud, has raised a lot of eyebrows as it paves the way for his promotion to police chief under a PPP government.

Have deals already been struck?

[nothingleftbutfaith]

At the moment factoring in all the events over the last 10 days, what is on the surface should not be the focus, but the back room stuff. Reading that Pojaman wants to meet Prem sends up warning flags. I don't know if that meeting will happen, and if it does it could rub a lot of people the wrong way and cause suspicion directed at Prem. The fact that the PM told the police to be on alert for EC protesters. This is beginning to sound like potassium nitrate, charcoal, and sulfur being mixed.

Are you forgetting they have met before just after th coup?

Why is the meeting now more likely to send up warning flags?

"Privy Council president Prem Tinsulanonda landed himself in hot water yesterday for allowing the wife of ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra to meet him at his residence, as many observers saw the meeting as inappropriate. General Oud Buengbon, Prem's close aide who is member of the National Legislative Assembly (NLA), sent his Mercedes-Benz sedan for Khunying Pojaman Shinawatra and her brother Bhanapot Damapong to see Prem at his residence in the morning. Pojaman and Bhanapot spent 15 minutes at Prem's house before leaving without giving any interview."

From "The Nation" October 2006

PS: how are we getting on with the proof of Cyber Tower ownership - any important updates we should know about?

Realised who Charoen and Capitland are yet?

Over the many years I have been here virtually every politician has spent time at Gen. Prem's residence especially during times of crisis. I dont really need to point out who Gen Prem works for, but enough to say in times of crisis avenues are kept open. Of course PPP or whoever, are going to talk to him whatver Samak or the white dove sympathisers say, and by th eway in this it does expose an ideological split between pragmatists and shall we say the more revolutuonary wing in the alliance that Mr. T has put together called PPP. However, these potential big differences will not surface until a much later date as now the they are united in a common stance.

By the way. Gen Oud is according to the grapevine a potetial candidate for defence minister under the PPP. Sorry to bring rumor up but sometimes it adds interest. As always though please regard it as rumour only.

The Old Power starts to make inroads.

The approval of the transfer of Thaksin's close ally and classmate Police-General Jumpol Manmai from the PM Office back to the headquarters of the police yesterday by the Police Commission, chaired by Khun Surayud, has raised a lot of eyebrows as it paves the way for his promotion to police chief under a PPP government.

Have deals already been struck?

I really do not care who the next prime minister will be , or who gets to appoint the next government.

At the end of the day, they are all corrupt crooks, milking the system , as it has been perpetuated for as long as I have been here ( 20 years).