"qualified" To Teach

[andyadam]

I must first say I AM NOT an English teacher, just an observer, but I must ask a question.

How many people who flame and brag here could teach legaly in the west? Do all the "qualified" teachers with work permits have a "B ed" degree (reuqired in the UK)?

If not, does a degree make a person better at teaching than a person without one? What makes a good teacher, from memory of my schooldays it is the person who inspires the kids to learn.

There are fantastic teachers out there without a degree and some really crap ones with a couple of masters under their belt.

In my humble opinion, teaching is a vocation not just a job. If you go shopping to a supermarket, and keep thinking "That would be good to teach the kids about" you may be half way there.

Please, if you are teaching here INSPIRE the kids, give them 200%, degree or no degree.

(Yes I have a degree, but I think I would be a lousy teacher)

[Ijustwannateach]

AA,

This topic is constantly rehashed on any foreign teacher's board. Few topics are more likely to raise controversy, flaming, and irrational, not to mention impractical, disagreements, even (or rather especially) among the teachers themselves. However, your initial post is relatively disarming for posts of its type, so I'll take a shot at a rational reply.

First of all, in almost any modern country a "qualified" teacher is someone whom the government with jurisdiction over the area *says* is qualified. In Thailand, the parts of government who have a say are the Ministry of Education, the Ministry of Labour, and the Immigration Office. The short answer to your question is that the people who are qualified to teach in Thailand are the ones that these three agencies *say* are qualified and hence grant them a teacher's license, a work permit, and an extended visa, respectively. There may be those who don't like it this way, but they're not the ones granting the papers.

As to what basis these departments use for determining WHO is qualified- it's quite flexible. It's true that a B.Ed. is mentioned in the relevant laws; however, the requirement is softened by allowing "the equivalent"- and the Ministry of Education has and often takes a broad view about what "the equivalent" can mean, especially depending on local supply and demand- people outside Bangkok where the foreign teacher supply is extremely low get away with a lot more than Bangkokians. In Bangkok, it generally requires a real degree in a topic at least related to the subject being taught- if it's TEFL, then it also requires either a certificate or "equivalent" experience. Bottom line: when the Thai government wants it, persons ranging from those with no degree and no TEFL certificate up to those who are the most qualified in the world are all equally "legal" here.

Further regarding your question about ability to teach legally back home- it all depends on where "home" is. In general, it does require a college degree to teach elementary or high school back home for most people- but then, the subjects being taught are not as simple usually as TEFL can be. It doesn't ALWAYS require an education degree to teach- in the U.S.A. there are 50 different education codes (one for each state). In Georgia, you can teach any subject that you have passed on your college transcript, though it doesn't make you a fully licensed teacher. When *I* was in high school, most of my science teachers had neither B.Eds nor degrees directly in the science they were teaching- they were drafted because they were the smartest teachers with the nearest type of degree. That didn't stop my chemistry teacher (who had been a Home Economics major in college!!!) from eventually earning her chemistry Ph.D, or stop the farm agri. expert from becoming my physics teacher. It also didn't stop my grandmother, who was a one room school house teacher in rural areas, from being a real teacher in her day- and it didn't hurt my mom either, since she wound up graduating with a medical technician's degree.

In short, fully licensed, qualified teachers are in short supply around the world- partially because very few bright people opt to study AS AN ED MAJOR from the start, there being a lot more useful and interesting things to spend 4 years at. One would think that a 4 year English degree would be just as useful (or more so) for teaching English than a B.Ed, or that a 4 year Math degree would be better for someone trying to teach senior level calculus than someone who spent 4 years studying educational theory- and it often is. That's why none of the teachers in my high school who had PhDs had any of their degrees in education.

I applaud your recognition of the reality that teacher quality depends on the person and not on the type (or even possession) of a particular degree. I think this is particularly important to realize in the case of TEFL, which is not even, strictly speaking, an academic area of study for most students, but rather a skill-based discipline like music or karate. I also echo your challenge to all teachers to try to inspire and help their students in their studies.

"Steven"

[geo]

I am. Both in the states and in the LOS.

However, people who are not and want to be tend to gravitate to the cheap and easier way.

Who does it hurt...

[IamMaiC]

I am. Both in the states and in the LOS.

However, people who are not and want to be tend to gravitate to the cheap and easier way.

Who does it hurt...

Is it a popular job to have in LOS for some farangs?? I mean easy to get work visa for and have little problems to work?? Find a Job I mean

[bkk barney]

iam.

from wot i understand from that teaching site ajarn.com , mainly the teachers are dead beat backpackers willing to work for a pittance, obviously a lot are on the run from there own home country due to legal problems, (please don't name people mate KK) is a perfect example of that.

Edited September 5, 2004 by kenkannif

[Ijustwannateach]

Nice to see you again, Geo, even if it's with the axe you love to grind .

Seriously, Geo- I don't have any U.S. teacher's license. I have a degree in the subject that I teach here. I could probably teach it in a high school in my home state in America, even legally. Who does it hurt?

If native-speaking foreigners with no degree but with some tefl training play conversation games with kids that Thai teachers wouldn't know how to or wouldn't have the speaking ability for, who does it hurt?

You've got to remember who the target students are, here. When it comes to TEFL in Thai schools, we're not usually talking about things that are even as difficult as remembering the past participles.

I'm guessing that you're mainly pissed because the cheaper supply of labor makes YOU less of a hot item, here- but I still love you.

Naturally, any boneheads who're behaving unprofessionally or not doing their job well SHOULD be weeded out. But that's an issue not only with the foreigners but also the Thai employees- competence is not necessarily the highest valued item here.

"Steven"

P.S. Dirtydog, you're way overstating the case and trolling, though there ARE some dodgy folks on ajarn, and here too, maybe even on this thread...

[andyadam]

there being a lot more useful and interesting things to spend 4 years at. One would think that a 4 year English degree would be just as useful (or more so) for teaching English than a B.Ed, or that a 4 year Math degree would be better for someone trying to teach senior level calculus than someone who spent 4 years studying educational theory

I half agree with your point above, I can only comment on the UK as to academic qualifications, but if you want to be an engineer why would you study biology!?

That is taking it to the extreme but a B.ed in the UK is a 4 year degree, most of the degree is in a core subject then the teaching theory AND practice is interlaced, the UK does have an "equivalent" but in order to get this you must have a relevent degree and then complete a 1 year PGCE course, but this is considered a lesser qualification.

Maybe the answer I am looking for is more of a moral answer, the motive for teaching, I have read most of the threads here and I think most of the people that post here are well motivated and probably a credit to the Thai education system, even the ones who may be, for whatever reason, working without a work permit and degreeless.

One thing that does worry me is when my friends 15 year old daughter comes to me and tells me her farang English "teacher" keeps telling her she is cute and asking about boyfriends!!!!( we all know it happens, and is a minority of "teachers")

THIS IS NOT A GENERALISATION IN ANY WAY.

When I find out his name I will be very happy to post it here for all to see, BTW she goes to Surasakmonteree school.

Ijustwanna, you just keep doing what you are doing, I admire your dedication and thank you for your superb reply. Keep doing it for the kids!!!!

All the best.

[Ijustwannateach]

Dear AA,

Well, people change their minds in life, and I think very few who are interested in a SUBJECT per se necessarily set out to be TEACHERS of that subject- I think a lot of the folks now teaching in Asia perhaps never PLANNED to be teachers. I was like this when I first went to Japan- teaching was the secondary goal; living and working in another country was first. However, I discovered along the way that I *like* teaching and seem fairly well suited to it. The sad fact is that it's very difficult while living abroad to get the necessary qualifications to teach AT HOME, but at the same time it's a rare teacher in the states who would give up their years of seniority and benefits BEFORE retirement to come and teach here- all praise to those who do, however, Geo!- a sort of catch-22 situation, so I think a bit of tolerance is necessary.

As far as the unprofessional behavior of the teacher you mention, I think that is another matter and deserves another thread regarding professionalism! I would assume that the manner in which your daughter has discussed this with you raised alarm bells with you? Usually kids can tell fairly easily if someone is simply being flattering/teasing or if they're being creepy.

Thanks for the vote of confidence!

"Steven"

[Darth Bangkok]

it turns out that teaching is the only viable profession for most people. what about the people who just want to live here and make a life for themselves? that want to be contributing members of the communtiy, but the only way to stay legally is to get a work permit to teach. there are so many professions that foreigners are not allowed to fill. and not all of us can be blessed enough to be sent here as expats by huge companies or want to wait long enough to advance high enough to be sent.

i would love to work here in my profession (accounting) but have to real chance to do anything but teach. and that is not always a set deal. i have a teachers license already. did you ever try to change schools? i need a license to show where i can work and at what times. the ministry of education does not care about our credentials or experiecne or anything except having piles of paper on there desk. once they send your application back enough times and the pile gets high enough, they send it upstairs and wait for the fat cat to get back from the naughty passage parlor and he signs it.

it has nothing to do with standards or any regulations. they accept your application based on the mood of the lady at the desk in the room full of morons at the MOE.

[Nemesis]

it turns out that teaching is the only viable profession for most people.

If Thailand would allow foreigners to hold jobs / do work / open businesses that weren't restricted to 49% instead of teaching, there would be a swoosh of the most qualified out of the teaching profession that would make Hurricane Ivan look like an gentle evening breeze.

Meanwhile, the Chinese are taking over the shipping in Chiang Rai by marryihng Thai women.

The Thais are so concerned about their paltry piece of the pie, they have no conception about making the pie bigger.

[daveh]

I think the real question is, are "qualified" English teachers, as defined by the Thai government, good teachers? The answer is simple, not always. Likewise, the converse is true as well. I had plenty of teachers in high school that were really bad. I'm sure they had degrees that qualified them to teach, but that certainly does not mean they will be good at it.

If the government increased their standards to require English teachers to have proper teaching degrees, again this does not mean they are good teachers, then you would have class sizes of at least 1,000. At a class size that large, I don't care how good the teacher is, the student just would not learn anything and they would be much better off just learning from a bunch of less skilled backpackers. The Thai government, as well as many governments around the world, has figured this out as well and acted appropriatedly.

While I was a teacher, my students really liked me. Does that make me a good teacher? Not really. I think the definition of a good teacher needs to include the ability to motivate the students. There were some students, and sometimes classes, that I just could not motivate to speak.

By the way, you hit on a pet peeve of mine. If someone has something to give, he/she can only give a maximum of 100%. Whenever I hear someone talking about giving 110% or more, I can help but think they failed math in elementary school. I know they didn't, because this phase has become ingrained into our language. It's just a phrase that I wish people would stop using.

[phormio]

I think the real question is, are "qualified" English teachers, as defined by the Thai government, good teachers? The answer is simple, not always. Likewise, the converse is true as well. I had plenty of teachers in high school that were really bad. I'm sure they had degrees that qualified them to teach, but that certainly does not mean they will be good at it.

...

This brings to mind an interesting question - do the schools attempt to measure the effectiveness and/or quality of the farang teachers ? If so how ? Perhaps some standardized tests on a national level (similar to PSAT, SAT, and ACT in the US) are commonly used? And does effectiveness of some sort impact raises and contract renewals in any systematic way?

Do students fill out teacher evaluations at the end of the class?

[kenkannif]

Generally no. It's purely on qualifications (generally!). Although the top notch schools probably have some kind of system I'd have thought!

Basically as long as the kids (and thus the parents) are happy, you keep your job (doesn't really matter if you've taught them nowt...as Stickman mentions in his column this week....all the kids pass regardless of their scores/exam grades etc.).

Yes, the students do seem to have more say in whether a teacher keeps their job or not (###### I wish it was like that in the UK when I went to school! My Mum and Dad always sided with the teacher unfortunately!) and they're not always (ever?) the best judge of who can and who cannot teach! TiT!

[daveh]

...

Basically as long as the kids (and thus the parents) are happy, you keep your job (doesn't really matter if you've taught them nowt...as Stickman mentions in his column this week....all the kids pass regardless of their scores/exam grades etc.).

...

I don't think this is true everywhere. At my school, we failed students frequently. I had a few students who complained that they shouldn't have failed. Then they would bring their friend, who didn't fail, to act as a translator while arguing their case. This act alone justifies their failing. After that, they would go to my boss. I had a great boss, he never second guessed his teachers ability to judge a student. But after talking with the students, he would normally acknowledge the decision to fail the student as the right one.

[kenkannif]

Of course it's not the case for every school, but it does seem to happen more often that not? What kind of school did you teach at? And where was your boss from?

Just the audacity of them complaining (and bringing in a translator, which as you says proves your failing them was justified) is very telling.

[bluebear]

....you must have a relevent degree and then complete a 1 year PGCE course, but this is considered a lesser qualification.

A degree & a PGCE is considered by who to be a lesser qualification? No one I know either here and at home would suggest that.

Talking out your rear end I think on that.

Not sure on the history but from memory of my mother when she talked about her teaching years all she needed was a degree and then the PGCE came in and then the Ed degree. ( may be wrong though )

[kenkannif]

Not sure on the history but from memory of my mother when she talked about her teaching years all she needed was a degree and then the PGCE came in and then the Ed degree. ( may be wrong though )

^ Actually I know older teachers (50 plus) from the UK that didn't even have a degree, but rather a teaching certificate/licence of some kind (I'll try to find out more) probably comparable to a degree but not a degree (as at least one of them had problems obtaining a TL) per se.

[andyadam]

Talking out your rear end I think on that.

If you were an NQT with a B.Ed going for a job against a PGCE applicant, chances are the NQT would get the job. Ex wife, school inspector! This is the problem of PGCE, they are looked at as 2nd rate. I am not saying it is right, it is the way things worked where I came from. There was a school, where my ex was Dep. head, that would not even interview PGCE teachers for a job!

But then maybe you're right, no one thinks it's a lesser qualification.

[bluebear]

Not sure on the history but from memory of my mother when she talked about her teaching years all she needed was a degree and then the PGCE came in and then the Ed degree. ( may be wrong though )

^ Actually I know older teachers (50 plus) from the UK that didn't even have a degree, but rather a teaching certificate/licence of some kind (I'll try to find out more) probably comparable to a degree but not a degree (as at least one of them had problems obtaining a TL) per se.

Quite probably true. It was just that she had a degree.

Andyadam - what is a NQT ? A newly qualified teacher?

[andyadam]

Got it in one.