How Dodgy Is My Candidate?

[Ijustwannateach]

Ok, here are the things I *know* to be true about him:

1. He is an art student at Silpakorn, and fairly good (has gotten pieces of his that I've seen into magazines and suchlike).

2. He speaks English suspiciously well (has an electronic dictionary).

3. He does not seem to have a lot of free cash (rides the bus, few extravagant spending habits that I've seen).

4. He's very bright- not only in English and art, but also in computers and a certain amount of philosophy.

5. He has a personal computer (compaq laptop).

6. He has been to Korea and dated at least one gay man there.

7. He has won several art awards (I've seen portfolio including award presentations).

8. He has worked for both a marketing agency and a pottery export company doing art for pay.

9. He has a number of pairs of shoes, some of which look fairly expensive.

10. He has a small number of tasteful clothes, but rather a variety of kinda provocative underwear.

11. In a bit of a financial bind recently, he sold his mobile phone to pay his rent and refused to take my 1-month offer of help.

12. He has obviously had quite a lot of experience with farangs- fair enough, I've been dating Thais, myself.

13. He freely admits to going to gay bars where farang often go; for example, DJ station- however he also goes to all-Thai gay bars with his friends.

14. I do all the paying for dates (he's a STUDENT, for gosh sakes), but he doesn't ask for other money and seems embarrassed quite often when I pay. He always makes sure to thank me for anything I've paid for.

15. When he's with me he seems more and more affectionate- not suddenly declaring his undying love, but measuring me just as I am measuring him.

Here are things he has TOLD me but for which I have no direct confirmation:

1. He is from Isaan and has a poor family.

2. He has an "aunt" married to a Korean man, which explains his trip to Korea and while he was there he earned the money for the computer by cleaning a restaurant for a few months

3. He's been at school funded partially by an uncle, partially by the Korean married aunt, partially by his brother, and partially by government funding (but overall has little spare money).

4. He's had a stingy Spanish boyfriend whom he is now considering breaking up with in my favor- claims the guy never even took him out to a movie or anything else but soi food.

5. He lives with a few other students in a typical student-block room near his university, but spends a lot of his time working and painting (I can confirm this anytime, 'cause he's not shy or paranoid about my visiting him in his home or at the studio- just haven't had time to go yet)

Now, the money and farang experience and the poverty all perhaps don't QUITE add up- but on the other hand, he's not apparently out to milk all farang for all he can get, either, and I think the feeling side of things is real; I'm convinced at the very least there's already a real friendship beginning to operate. Physically, things started slow but are getting hotter.

So, how sincere do you think this guy is? I'm trying to believe in him as much as I can, but it's in light of a recent relationship which went sour despite my ex-'s honest affection for me, because I found out about the other 3-4 guys bankrolling him (the ex). What do you recommend?

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

P.S. If you think you are currently dating/bankrolling this candidate, please PM me or post here and I'll be happy to provide more details!

[ChrisP]

Hi IJWT...

You don't say his age.... but I assume early 20's...?

Don't be concerned about the really good English. Mine (at 21) also has that... and I don't think it's suspicious. I'm just grateful that he put in the work for it either way.

I have a funny feeling that some of the money in past may not have come from cleaning a restaurant, brother, uncle, aunt and others... I suspect it may have come from being a non-commercial "trick"... The sexy underwear is def a clue.

Look, even if you pick up a guy at DJ Station... (and that's the reason to GO there..) if you're farang, 95% of them will pay some $$ to their Thai at the end of the time together...

I would say it sounds like he's trying not to trick much now... hence the loss if income.. and the cell-phone problem.

Does Korea have an "imported sex-worker" industry...? My bf told me that Sweden does... after he decided not to go there. (Before he met me..)

I would def go and visit his home/studio... maybe a "surprise" visit....??

Oh, and I don't think he's a "money-boy".

ChrisP

Edited September 9, 2004 by ChrisP

[Ijustwannateach]

^Thanks, Chris-

Yeah, I thought there was something dodgy about the Korea story as well, and any familiarity with DJ station is in itself a bad sign for the "legitimacy" of a bf candidate. On the other hand, as you say, it seems that he's trying harder to be "normal" [maybe]. If nothing else, he's a sweetie and becoming a good friend.

Yeah, I wouldn't think this guy is in the mb spectrum of things, but possibly at the top range of the kept boy part of the spectrum.... time will tell, as there are very, very few secrets in Thailand!

[Skipton]

and any familiarity with DJ station is in itself a bad sign for the "legitimacy" of a bf candidate.

Yikes, thats got me "thinking too much" again.

However its been a good few months for me now and I still occasionally find myself looking or rather thinking about signs of infidelity, but to tell you the truth the constant second guessing of every remark, night away from each other was getting way too much. I decided that I'd trust him at his word and havnt been let down. I hadn't had a bad experience, but then this is my first non long-range relationship over here but I had heard really bad stories from friends. I know now that doubt could have led to indecision and cost me a lot of smiles and laughs, possibly more so, this is what I remind myself often. I am accused of being too trusting, but I can think of worse things and am at last living as I should be.

The reason for writing is that your original post was just like my thought process in the first couple of months, but its all good now. Hope yours will be too, sure it will be.

[astral]

Sounds like you may have the genuine article.

11 and 14 impressed me the most.

Independant and not on the take....... good to see, but rare.

15 sounds like a good sign as well.

Edited September 10, 2004 by astral

[Ijustwannateach]

Thanks, guys! I'm not looking for a saint, even if there were any out there- I know he's got a past just like I've got a past- but it seems to me, even with dodgy elements in his past he's doing better now.

I've already told him that I like him a lot but before we could ever become "boyfriends" I would have to learn a LOT about him and his life, and his PRESENT would at least have to check out- and I've told him I know a number of the tricks of the trade- so we'll see if he tries to make the grade or not. I've got my fingers crossed!

"Steven"

[slapdashkitty]

Hey TEACH according to your own previous advice posts he seems pretty cool. I have to say alot of the scare mongering that I see in here is based on the fact that the "bad" guys are all picked up in PATPONG or GAY.COM bringing new meaning to "you get what you pay for." There are just regular guys out there...I have met them actually there are many- in just a bout a year I have only encountered one "bad" guy and spotted him upon his introduction. Use ur head is there a nagging feeling in the back of your mind? And well as to pasts we all have those....we all bring baggage-just depends on how much and of course if it is LV or not. Why all this pressure to label him as your BF? Just go with the flow-but as to his kanoodling with another guy whilst in a relationship because the guy is cheap well that is the only downer....

[Ice Treasure]

SDK makes sense... at the end of the day, you see yourself as old and ugly and you wonder what "he" sees in you?

It can't be that he loves you since you don't love yourself enough to account for anyone else loving you. It's a sad but normal state for the elderly such as us...

You are wrong about him, you are right about him.. it doesn't matter. It's not as though you are handing him the keys to the condo in Florida.. ###### all he wants is to share your bed and all you can do is ask why..

Give thanks and get on with what is left of your life...with him.

[Ijustwannateach]

SDK,

I brought the dreaded "bf" word up first with him on purpose to emphasize that he should NOT consider us boyfriends (which does tend to happen by faite accompli quite often in Asia) until I knew quite a bit more about him- just wanted to make it clear to him that we weren't making any promises to each other yet, so that no one was doing anything under false pretenses or got hurt for making the wrong assumptions. I'm quite the opposite of in the hurry to have another "official" boyfriend- but it's nice to be investing time in someone who could go that way.

As for the Spanish guy- he has taken to referring to him as his "ex-"- however, once again, no verification (either of his existence or his dumping). I'm remaining happily and optimistically skeptical, if that's possible.

Skipton, if your guy is good enough that you can turn off the warning lights and bells in the back of your head, then great! After all, how much can we ever really know about our partners anyway? I prefer to approach my beliefs about him from an "evidence" based system, having been burnt too many times by the Thai propensity for easy lying. It's not necessary to be rude by demanding copies of paperwork, etc., but over time you can pretty much depend on having access to whatever information you'd need. Copies of ATM receipts in the wallet showing bank balance (too high or not?), presence or absence of other farang's phone numbers (and vacation arrival dates!), suspicious purchases, mysterious friends that you can't meet, etc., etc. If these things are routinely reassuring, then you can start to relax- if not, better not to let your feelings get too involved.

Astral, I hope so!

"Steven"

[Skipton]

I'm remaining happily and optimistically skeptical

Very good! that sums up the situation for me, or rather did, as I,m a lot less skeptical these days, which is as it should beas I,m a relative youngster here in BKK.

Maybe when your friends and his begin to meet and merge thats when things will look even more promising and long term. This is what happened to me.

[PeaceBlondie]

Well, I don't know. In my previous life as a tax auditor, even the Tax Court allowed a decision based upon "the preponderance of the evidence," and oral testimony was accepted if it was reasonably substantiated by decent documents. The ATM receipts, for example, and the lifestyle clues.

But gays love to have fancy shoes, even when their nickname isn't "Imelda." I know an 18-year old who just bought patent leather point-toed boots for 2,400 baht (but it was the money he earned by tricks, not bartending, that paid for the boots!). Same with sexy underwear - didn't many of us get those items into our wardrobes without having rented ourselves out?

On some rainy night, you could offer to take him home (Freudian slip there; I first typed "take him off"), since he doesn't have his own transport. The lack of his own m/c suggests struggling student. While he's in the toilet, look around for more clues without being ridiculous.

That's it; be suspicious without being ridiculous.

Enjoy yourself. Are you searching for a 30-year marriage? I thought not.

[Ijustwannateach]

Heh heh... you're in your "audit" mode, I can tell! Yes, you're right that I'm not in it for a 30 year marriage here, and he's probably decent enough for anything less! so relax and enjoy! Thanks for the input.

"Steven"

[craftwork]

You say your ''candidate'' (for what...boyfriend?) is from Isan. I guess that means you won't get to meet his parents or family in a hurry.

If you were able to meet them you might get a better idea of what your friend is like.

I have a Thai friend who lives with a Spanish guy. Like your guy, the Thai boy is young, bright, studying, and speaks good English, but unlike your friend comes from a wealthy Chinese family, here in Bangkok.

A week or so ago Mr Thai was having problems with his BF, whom he has known for two years. I asked him if Mr Spain had ever met his parents or siblings, and he said no. That surprised me: I said if I was his BF I would like the chance to meet them and become part of his family.

In fact, it would almost be a condition of my entering a relationship with him. How can you really know a young man of his age and background unless you know his family?

I asked him if Mr Spain had ever met his friends at university. Once again, the answer was no. In fact, Mr Thai has never told his friends he lives in a gay relationship with a westerner.

At this point I was beginning to despair. Mr Thai's parents know he is gay, but he does not like to bother them with details, or so he says. His friends, likewise, must know he does not like girls...so what's holding him back?

Mr Thai knows where his loyalties lie. He is already thinking about building his business empire when he graduates in a couple of months. For that, he'll need his father's help.

In the meantime, he allows his mother to ferry him between Bang Na (where his family lives) and Thammasat University, where he studies. She must spend most of her day in the car, but does not grumble. How can his Spanish boyfriend compete with such self-sacrifice, especially when he is not part of the family?

He can't, as he'll discover shortly, when I (predict) the relationship will fall apart.

[ChrisP]

Meeting the family is definitely an important part of the knowledge-base... and most Thai boys actually WANT you to meet them... I think it's a bit like showing off a "trophy" to them... "Look what I got...! A successful farang..."

I even got dragged to Isaan (the farm in BuriRam) and the family by my prior bf, who was an ex-bar-boy....!!

Family is a VERY important part of Thai's life and culture... and it does tell you a LOT about them...... so anyone in a similar situation.. press for it.

ChrisP

[Ijustwannateach]

I agree family meetings are important. My candidate (yes, craftwork, for boyfriend!) has a brother who lives here in Bangkok working, I believe, for a bank- he's volunteered to introduce me to *him*, anyway. He says that the father & mother don't like gays- which may be true, or may be a way of not introducing me to parents who have ALREADY met the "real" boyfriend . I've been to his studio and met his classmates- no more mystery there.

Further update on the candidate and his "ex"-Spanish boyfriend- though he has referred to him as an "ex," in his currently supposedly financially straitened circumstances, he has now decided it necessary to move his homebase to that guy's room and is apparently not giving up on him, though he is no less warm and affectionate and brought up the dreaded "bf" word again. I told him that it would perhaps be easier to be "friends" until I know a lot more about him and he seemed to understand this. One of my more cynical friends has suggested he's just looking for a way to keep both of us on the string - anyway, it's still fun and I've made no promises and extracted none.

His attitude to the Spanish guy seems rather ambivalent and passive- aggressive- seems like he'd LIKE to dump him but just can't summon the nerve [often talks about how he wishes the Spanish guy would dump HIM]. Typical Thai fear of confrontation, perhaps- or maybe has no real plan to dump the guy and just wants the topic to go away.

Chinese-related guys are a WHOLE different kettle of fish- and I would certainly be MUCH more careful about their families if I were seriously involved with one! Unfortunately they also are more often likely to be homophobic, from what I hear.

Well, he's nice- but with his busy studying (and distant location) I can only see him once or twice a week- the perils of dating guys who have things to do (or people to date!) !

"Steven"

[ChrisP]

Hmmmm... so the "ex" isn't really an ex after all......

Maybe it's Mr. Spain's peseta's that he needs.... and rent paid by living there. I don't buy the "... I wish he'd dump me .." line. If he believed that he wouldn't move in with him.

Yep.. I suspect (in true Thai style) he'd just like the difficult-to-discuss subject to go away.

Mind you don't become "Mia Noi".... Second Wife.

ChrisP

[PeaceBlondie]

Pardon me for being confused, but is there a Spaniard in the works? How many rich gay Spaniards have Thai bf's in Bangkok? I speak Spanish, and have only found two speakers here around Chiang Mai in 17 months, and both were Thai. Could your two stories involve the same Spaniard? Yo no se.

It's difficult to believe that both Thai parents of a 20-something gay boy don't know he's gay. Maybe he's bi.

I once "dated" a barboy regularly. One weekend I said, "Do you want to fly home and see your family for the holiday?" He got right on his mobile, called "Maa" and within 15 hours we were there, meeting the whole family. But they've known he was gay for many years. It was weird, crossing the street while holding his right hand and Papa was holding his left hand. I always wondered what he told them about who I was.

I hate secrets. The more you share your life with a person, the less secrets you can have.

[Ijustwannateach]

There's a way to find out! Craftwork, what letter does your Thai friend's Spanish guy's name start with- and what letter does the THAI guy's name start with? Wouldn't it be a lovely coincidence!!!

Yes, I also suspect his sincerity, and as long as there's any question about this guy there's no question that I'll be his boyfriend. Do note, however, that he's told me all this stuff about the Spanish guy voluntarily- when it would have been just as easy to keep mum. Plus, he's mentioned that the Spanish guy is aware he's been dating another fellow, because he doesn't want to lie to him either. Perhaps he's looking for a high bidder, considering his complaints of the Spanish guy's selfishness? I'm afraid he'll find little competition in me; I don't play those games.

"Steven"

[craftwork]

I'm afraid he'll find little competition in me; I don't play those games.

When I have more energy, I might relate a tale here involving the Spanish guy (Spanish M) and his Thai boyfriend, whose nickname also starts with M.

These two like playing games, and don't mind hurting people in the process. Their latest game culminated in a screaming match outside our condo (we live in the same building) between him, his former Thai boyfriend, his current Thai boyfriend, my BF, and sundry others, at 3 in the morning.

Wasn't fun to watch.

[Ijustwannateach]

I am very much afraid that we ARE talking about the same pair, Craftwork...

I'll pm you and discuss it.

"Steven"

[craftwork]

I tend to look at people's behaviour in terms of options and choices. It sounds to me like your Thai boy has choices as to where he can stay...but is still insisting on moving back with the Spanish guy.

I think you mentioned above that he lives close to university. If that didn't suit, then he could always live with his student friends. A bunch of young ones I know used to live on the floor above me in my condo...none of them was working, but they still managed to go out every night, mainly thanks to the generosity of their parents, from whom their sponged mercilessly.

If he does have choices, but still wants to live with a boyfriend he says he would rather leave, then I would tend to look at his behaviour in terms of what it says about his own character.

For example: one of the girls who lived upstairs was addicted to men, a new one virtually every night, and always more than one on the go.

I met four or five of them, all pleasant young men who had one thing in common: they owned their own car! This girl fancied herself as hi-so and liked being ferried about. No taxis for her! I imagine it's the first thing she asked.

People's lives are always more complicated than the stranger appreciates, of course, but on the face of it your Thai's behaviour seems rather shabby. Has he asked you what you think about all this?

[Ijustwannateach]

Yes, I agree he has "issues." Possibly a bit about self esteem- but in any case Not My Problem [though I'm happy to reassure him of his cuteness, talent, etc.]. I've known for some time that he was far from perfect, and that's one reason I'm not making any promises. And he's young and immature by definition- so I get what I ask for dating someone that age! No whining! I just posted to get a more objective take on the situation, and hear some good advice- which all of you have been kind enough to give me. I'm sure I'll learn more as time goes on! NO secrets in Thailand.

As we discussed in PM's, he's probably not the guy you know- thank goodness- but I'd still like to hear the story of the screaming match!

"Steven"

[DJ Pat]

You, like me, are natrually suspicious of their 'hidden agendas' but from what you've posted, he sounds ok. Yes there are past things making you doubtful but why not just have fun?

I met that girl I told you about when we had that drink and after a few meetings, I got suspicious of her nice clothes and challenged her to tell me the truth. She couldn't. So I said f*** off and she started sending me SMS messages in perfect english so I was right after all.

There's always the next one.

Or find a virgin!

[astral]

Meeting the family is definitely an important part of the knowledge-base... and most Thai boys actually WANT you to meet them... I think it's a bit like showing off a "trophy" to them... "Look what I got...! A successful farang..."

It all depends on the family.

For an average working class family(no criticism implied), yes it may well be true,

I have a Thai friend who lives with a Spanish guy. Like your guy, the Thai boy is young, bright, studying, and speaks good English, but unlike your friend comes from a wealthy Chinese family, here in Bangkok.

but for the upscale "Chinese" famil mentioned in the previous post, it may not be possible. The Guy may still be in the closet, at least at the public level.

[slapdashkitty]

I just have one more question about all of this? Are there that many guys out there running around (outside PATPONG) with these machevellian plans of snaring a rich husband? Have we all not dreamed of that in our misspent youths? I know I sure did. I wonder if this is just a thing of age?

I am new here but with a clear head and ots of track experience I find it is just not that hard to steer clear of bad guys? I lay it down fast that I am not a cash cow and it is rarely discussed again. Sure dinners and movies have fallen on my shoulders but I enjoy it if I like the guy and well at the end of the month I often have a nice dinner or little something nice from my guy.

[craftwork]

I am new here but with a clear head and ots of track experience I find it is just not that hard to steer clear of bad guys?

As you say yourself: you're new here. You'll find out soon enough whether it is as easy as you claim.

[Ijustwannateach]

I just have one more question about all of this? Are there that many guys out there running around (outside PATPONG) with these machevellian plans of snaring a rich husband? Have we all not dreamed of that in our misspent youths? I know I sure did. I wonder if this is just a thing of age?

I am new here but with a clear head and ots of track experience I find it is just not that hard to steer clear of bad guys? I lay it down fast that I am not a cash cow and it is rarely discussed again. Sure dinners and movies have fallen on my shoulders but I enjoy it if I like the guy and well at the end of the month I often have a nice dinner or little something nice from my guy.

I don't always think they're always bright enough to be Machiavellian, though I have met some true Machiavelli's here- knew a former Chula student who had a steady boyfriend here and at LEAST 2 in the states (who were both paying for his "education") and 3 or 4 in Australia and one or two in Europe.

No, you may be just fine with a few dinners and movies a month. But where (as I am fond of saying) does the money come from? How does someone with no income, the son of a family that perhaps has a 6-9K a month income (if middle class) afford his education, his upkeep, AND possibly another apartment (even if shared), not to mention ANY extras that you see him with? Who's paying for dinners on the nights you're NOT with him?

If you're speaking Thai with him, ok then- if not, just HOW did he learn the English (and don't tell me he studied hard in Matthayom)?

Of course, there will be a story. There's ALWAYS a story- but do you have independent verification for this story, or is it just what the guy has told you?

Try this: if he has an ATM account (and WHY does he have one?) grab a look at the balance once in awhile.

Take a look at his most usual cruising email accounts- better yet, pretend to be someone rich and cruise him on one of those accounts as another person!

Not being milked for money doesn't mean you're not being used. Just wait until Mr. Moneybags from Switzerland arrives for his high-season vacation- oh, wait, just coincidentally it's time for your "boyfriend" to take a four-week sojourn to his relatives in the country! And let's not forget the surprise 3-month visit to the "aunt" living in Germany..... with the passport previously arranged by that little trip to Cambodia he begged you to take him on....

Things here are often not as simple as they seem, especially if it involves anyone who's had ANY prior dating contact with foreigners/tourists.

Most people have to go through at least one experience of this type to know what to look out for (or to believe it if they've been warned by others). The first attachment is blissful while it lasts, though.

"Steven"

[Skipton]

The thing I've noticed about Bangkok and the scene here is that its a relatively small world and if any duplicitness is going on, surely it would be easy enough to find out or to stumble upon it on soi 4. Made a few surprise its me! appearences myself.

[Ijustwannateach]

^not all the kept boys are regulars of Soi 4, especially if they've met their partners on the Internet- they may specifically stay away from area to avoid such awkward encounters! And if they do go to Soi4, they can always say it was to meet their THAI friends (oh, and I met this old farang that I used to know...)

I've known kept guys who would deliberately walk slightly *behind* their current partners so that if any longterm partners saw them they wouldn't be obviously "with" the other farang!

Believe me- they're smarter than that!

"Steven"