Education - Education And Education

[LaoPo]

Two "EDUCATION" articles this week:

1. In one of them a high-so man from India said the only way for India, out of poverty, is Education, education and education. There are still 350 Million people in India living off less than 1 US Dollar per day...

2. In another article it was mentioned: "After China, (PM of the UK) Mr Brown heads to India where he will announce plans to train 750,000 English teachers there over the next five years"

From BBC.

If only the new Thai Government would stand still for a mere 5 minutes to give this news a thought.....

If Thailand would cooperate also with countries like the UK, USA, Australia and/or New Zealand and create a plan....to train some 43.000* new English teachers in the next 5 years it would give Thailand an enormous boost into the future.

The cash is there but is the Government & Elite willing to invest to educate their people ?

* Thailand has some 17.4 % (65M) of the Indian population of 1.130.000.000.

Yes yes...I know.......TIT, but if nobody writes about it, who will ?

LaoPo

Edited January 20, 2008 by LaoPo

[Xangsamhua]

Two "EDUCATION" articles this week:

1. In one of them a high-so man from India said the only way for India, out of poverty, is Education, education and education. There are still 350 Million people in India living off less than 1 US Dollar per day...

2. In another article it was mentioned: "After China, (PM of the UK) Mr Brown heads to India where he will announce plans to train 750,000 English teachers there over the next five years"

From BBC.

If only the new Thai Government would stand still for a mere 5 minutes to give this news a thought.....

If Thailand would cooperate also with countries like the UK, USA, Australia and/or New Zealand and create a plan....to train some 43.000* new English teachers in the next 5 years it would give Thailand an enormous boost into the future.

The cash is there but is the Government & Elite willing to invest to educate their people ?

* Thailand has some 17.4 % (65M) of the Indian population of 1.130.000.000.

Yes yes...I know.......TIT, but if nobody writes about it, who will ?

LaoPo

"The cash is there but is the Government & Elite willing to invest to educate their people?"

It seems not. There are conferences and resolutions passed, but nothing much happens after that, at least in regard to training Thai teachers of English. It must be recognized that the task is much more difficult here than in India where there is a much larger pool of English-speaking "trainers" to draw on. Nevertheless, "a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step".

[PeaceBlondie]

Thailand needs to overhaul its entire public education system, from anuban (preschool) to university, in a process that might cost a trillion baht and take ten or 200 years, along with a minor cultural upheaval. Actually, Ken May wrote an insightful review of Thai educational history in the Learning Post of the Bangkok Post about ten days ago. Ken's excellent article pointed out lots of major improvements through the recent decades, by royalty and commoners, much of which I didn't realize. Yet, for all the efforts at reform and money invested in it, the changes have been slow.

Thais don't just need to learn English. In fact, most Thais don't need more than 200 words of English. They need to learn to question authority, ask embarrassing questions, think for themselves independently, and give good essay answers to open ended questions. Maybe in the year 2595, if Thais are still alive.

[AlexLah]

How about learning them (Thai's) Chinese?

Would it not make more sense?

[Xangsamhua]

How about learning them (Thai's) Chinese?

Would it not make more sense?

Yes, Chinese is important, too, and perhaps easier to learn for Thai students. However, while Chinese is important in the region, so is English. Whether doing business with the Nanyang Chinese in Singapore, the Philippines or Vietnam, English is likely to be as helpful as Mandarin Chinese, and probably more so. A couple of years ago it was estimated that the number of people outside China learning Mandarin as a second language was about 20 million. At the same time the number of people in China alone learning English was about 250 million.

Chinese would be the logical third language for Thailand for dealing with the outside world. As more resources should be put into English, so they should go into Chinese as well, but English will open more doors.

Of course, all this implies a serious attempt to use education as a vehicle for change and advancement. While education is used primarily as a vehicle for containment and control, these developments won't occur and certainly won't be extended to the common people. The emergence of an analytical and critical approach to education IMHO won't come about as the result of planning, only by some unforeseen upheaval or, perhaps, by osmosis (by 2595, as Peace Blondie suggests).

[TEFLMike]

Thailand needs to overhaul its entire public education system, from anuban (preschool) to university, in a process that might cost a trillion baht and take ten or 200 years, along with a minor cultural upheaval. Actually, Ken May wrote an insightful review of Thai educational history in the Learning Post of the Bangkok Post about ten days ago. Ken's excellent article pointed out lots of major improvements through the recent decades, by royalty and commoners, much of which I didn't realize. Yet, for all the efforts at reform and money invested in it, the changes have been slow.

Thais don't just need to learn English. In fact, most Thais don't need more than 200 words of English. They need to learn to question authority, ask embarrassing questions, think for themselves independently, and give good essay answers to open ended questions. Maybe in the year 2595, if Thais are still alive.

I agree wholeheartedly with you as regards the questioning in class and thinking for themselves

When I first dtarted teaching in Thailand, I really believed it was I 'not getting through' to the children. I soon learned differently.

Now? Approaching the end of the school year, I find that a few children recognise, through my voice sound, that indeed I am asking a question and that I require a reply. At least I am now ascertaining that all is ok to ask me a question.

I have now reached a situation with at least 3 or 4 in each class and managed to get them to 'put there hand up in the air' if they would like to answer a question I have asked the class. This too, is seen upon by many students, that to put one's hand up , that the pupil doing so is a creep or referred to by other students, as a teachers pet. Now, many students accept that it is OK to answer a quesion and guess what? They have started to like the involvement and some students gaining a little confidence that results from doing so.

A bigger problem for me is mobile usage in class.

[Briggsy]

Great post PeaceBlondie.

Changing a mindset and a lazy one at that is very tough indeed.

TEFLMike

Try the technique of putting them in groups and getting the group to come up with ideas or answers instead of the old someone put their hand up method. Ensure that the other groups have to respond in some way to the ideas or answers of other groups or they'll just stop paying attention. You might get some better results like this.

Just an idea (and not even mine) but I've used it often enough.

Edited January 20, 2008 by Briggsy

[Xangsamhua]

Great post PeaceBlondie.

Changing a mindset and a lazy one at that is very tough indeed.

TEFLMike

Try the technique of putting them in groups and getting the group to come up with ideas or answers instead of the old someone put their hand up method. Ensure that the other groups have to respond in some way to the ideas or answers of other groups or they'll just stop paying attention. You might get some better results like this.

Just an idea (and not even mine) but I've used it often enough.

Good idea, Briggsy. Students can work together and save face at the same time.

[yorkman]

Ken's excellent article pointed out lots of major improvements through the recent decades, by royalty and commoners, much of which I didn't realize. Yet, for all the efforts at reform and money invested in it, the changes have been slow.

Hmmm, my wife teaches at a high school out in the sticks, and she would take a heck of a lot of convincing that there is real change happening. She teaches, amongst other things, computing and gets 3 computers for a class of 50, despite government claims of computers in all schools.

Or worse, my brother in law is now the head teacher (director) of the primary school in the family village. He will tell how nothing has really changed since he was a kid there 40 some years ago. They still have virtually nothing in terms of the basics; books, desks, decent accommodation... need I go on?

What I do admire, and yes there are some slackers, is the positive attitude most government teachers have to this, despite the circumstances and the way they are trained and expected to teach.

Edited January 20, 2008 by yorkman

[tutsiwarrior]

it ain't just a matter of having the institutional infrastructure in place...insistance on achievement based upon merit is considered to be another western, foreign intrusion...' hey, you're not supposed to cheat in examinations...' ' whaaaa??? falang baa!!!'

I presently have a couple of adolescent nieces that show academic ability and want to say to them 'work hard and study and the further benefit will be it's own reward'. But, what does that mean if it is clear to them that a fundamentally corrupt system does not allow it?

I guess I could say 'you got nice equipment...get yerself a short skirt and a pair of heels and see what you can do...'

[yorkman]

it ain't just a matter of having the institutional infrastructure in place...insistance on achievement based upon merit is considered to be another western, foreign intrusion...' hey, you're not supposed to cheat in examinations...' ' whaaaa??? falang baa!!!'

I presently have a couple of adolescent nieces that show academic ability and want to say to them 'work hard and study and the further benefit will be it's own reward'. But, what does that mean if it is clear to them that a fundamentally corrupt system does not allow it?

I guess I could say 'you got nice equipment...get yerself a short skirt and a pair of heels and see what you can do...'

I am not sure what you mean Tutsi, and I read it a few times to get your drift.

Yes, there is the undercurrent that all must pass regardless, but are you really saying that all Thai teachers do not care about education, do not understand why it is flawed, and would not do better if the system allowed?

I have a neice that has just gone off to University in Khon Kaen. Her parents seriously cannot really afford it, but there are doing so. They definately did not say 'you got nice equipment...get yerself a short skirt and a pair of heels and see what you can do...'

That sounds like propogation of the myth about Issan (all poor, ignorant, do not know how to vote, drink whisky and gamble all day, send their kids into prostitution to support them..etc etc)

[ajarnmark]

Two "EDUCATION" articles this week:

1. In one of them a high-so man from India said the only way for India, out of poverty, is Education, education and education. There are still 350 Million people in India living off less than 1 US Dollar per day...

2. In another article it was mentioned: "After China, (PM of the UK) Mr Brown heads to India where he will announce plans to train 750,000 English teachers there over the next five years"

From BBC.

If only the new Thai Government would stand still for a mere 5 minutes to give this news a thought.....

If Thailand would cooperate also with countries like the UK, USA, Australia and/or New Zealand and create a plan....to train some 43.000* new English teachers in the next 5 years it would give Thailand an enormous boost into the future.

The cash is there but is the Government & Elite willing to invest to educate their people ?

* Thailand has some 17.4 % (65M) of the Indian population of 1.130.000.000.

Yes yes...I know.......TIT, but if nobody writes about it, who will ?

LaoPo

I doubt if only 350 million people are living below poverty line. According to a recent survey it should be around 700 million.

India does not need English teachers, their English comprehension is at high level. Only problem is accent, which is for every country, like Australia, USA or UK. Everyone has his own accent.

Thailand is really low on education side and it will never go up due to the policies of the country. Some of the problems in Thai education system are:

1. Having a white guy to teach everything or at least English is disrespect to other nationalities.

2. Even Russians and Nigerians are teaching English. I believe that there are some Russians and Nigerians, who can speak good English, however, presenting such people as American or African American is purely dishonesty on the part of Thai schools.

3. Level of salary is too low in Thai universities, it has to be increased.

[abdulrahman]

it ain't just a matter of having the institutional infrastructure in place...insistance on achievement based upon merit is considered to be another western, foreign intrusion...' hey, you're not supposed to cheat in examinations...' ' whaaaa??? falang baa!!!'

I presently have a couple of adolescent nieces that show academic ability and want to say to them 'work hard and study and the further benefit will be it's own reward'. But, what does that mean if it is clear to them that a fundamentally corrupt system does not allow it?

I guess I could say 'you got nice equipment...get yerself a short skirt and a pair of heels and see what you can do...'

Yes,it's not only the institutional attitude,the perception of the people has to change,too.

This why I think that 2595 is a good guess.

Ooops,sorry,read the previous post,elicit my comment,please.

[LaoPo]

How about learning them (Thai's) Chinese?

Would it not make more sense?

Yes, Chinese is important, too, and perhaps easier to learn for Thai students. However, while Chinese is important in the region, so is English. Whether doing business with the Nanyang Chinese in Singapore, the Philippines or Vietnam, English is likely to be as helpful as Mandarin Chinese, and probably more so. A couple of years ago it was estimated that the number of people outside China learning Mandarin as a second language was about 20 million. At the same time the number of people in China alone learning English was about 250 million.

Chinese would be the logical third language for Thailand for dealing with the outside world. As more resources should be put into English, so they should go into Chinese as well, but English will open more doors.

Of course, all this implies a serious attempt to use education as a vehicle for change and advancement. While education is used primarily as a vehicle for containment and control, these developments won't occur and certainly won't be extended to the common people. The emergence of an analytical and critical approach to education IMHO won't come about as the result of planning, only by some unforeseen upheaval or, perhaps, by osmosis (by 2595, as Peace Blondie suggests).

I agree with most of what you said but the number of Chinese studying English is far out...far out.

What you probably read (or meant) is that this number of Chinese -ever- studied English at one point in their lives. So, it's a total number.

This is an excerpt from an article of 2006 and maybe the number increased since then:

"The ministry's statistics suggested that the current number of students enrolled on Chinese campuses amounted to 23 million, which is the world's largest group of foreign language learners."

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200603/2...327_253675.html

Of course that number (23M) has to be increased, and I think considerably, because there are many..many private institutions/evening schools teaching English, apart from the campuses. Also, many Chinese primary schools hire English teachers (not even qualified ones...) to boost their image but at the same time, the knowledge of the children. Many parents are very proud of their kids, starting to speak/read/write English, especially amongst the growing middle class.

They recognize the importance of English for the future of their children.....is that the same amongst Thai middle class ?

LaoPo

[MrSnrang]

I doubt that any amount of money could help the Thai youth. Thai students at my decently-funded school who have been there for 10 years still fail to grasp the language. It's a matter of embarrassment, they're afraid to use what they learn so they never learn to use the English language. The culture doesn't exactly encourage progress.

[LaoPo]

I doubt if only 350 million people are living below poverty line. According to a recent survey it should be around 700 million.

India does not need English teachers, their English comprehension is at high level. Only problem is accent, which is for every country, like Australia, USA or UK. Everyone has his own accent.

At first glance I thought you were wrong.....you were !

It's not 350 Million..it's not 700 Million...it's 847 Million people living below the poverty line, set by the:

"The World Bank's definition of the poverty line**, for under developed countries, like India, is US$ 1/day/person or US $365 per year. As per this definition, more than 75% of all Indians are, probably, below the poverty line!"

So, 75% of 1.130.000.000 people (1.35 Billion) is 847 Million

So, you were more than right !

But, at the same time you are probably incorrect, assuming that India doesn't need (many more) English teachers.

I assume that those 847 Million are very low, to none, educated people and children....

Therefore the -urgent- need for more teachers is there.

Note:

read 'your heart out' :

13. Number of people, in India, who are unemployed approximately About 300 million

14. Number of JOBS which need to be created every year, to fulfill the aspirations of the people of India About 10 million/yr.

15. Number of people BORN every year in India (China is only 10 million per year) About 27 million/yr.

16. Number of people, in India, who are below 35 years of age About 700 million

http://www.wakeupcall.org/administration_i...overty_line.php

Also:

Nearly 80 pct of India lives on half dollar a day

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSDEL218894

Back on topic:

Anyway, I think Thailand is not so bad as India but still needs a program to boost English on primary schools (to start with).

There are 14 Million Thai from 0-14 years of age.

If Thailand just would start with them.....if they marry you have a 'snowball' effect of Thai couples, educated in English...

LaoPo

[tutsiwarrior]

it ain't just a matter of having the institutional infrastructure in place...insistance on achievement based upon merit is considered to be another western, foreign intrusion...' hey, you're not supposed to cheat in examinations...' ' whaaaa??? falang baa!!!'

I presently have a couple of adolescent nieces that show academic ability and want to say to them 'work hard and study and the further benefit will be it's own reward'. But, what does that mean if it is clear to them that a fundamentally corrupt system does not allow it?

I guess I could say 'you got nice equipment...get yerself a short skirt and a pair of heels and see what you can do...'

I am not sure what you mean Tutsi, and I read it a few times to get your drift.

Yes, there is the undercurrent that all must pass regardless, but are you really saying that all Thai teachers do not care about education, do not understand why it is flawed, and would not do better if the system allowed?

I have a neice that has just gone off to University in Khon Kaen. Her parents seriously cannot really afford it, but there are doing so. They definately did not say 'you got nice equipment...get yerself a short skirt and a pair of heels and see what you can do...'

That sounds like propogation of the myth about Issan (all poor, ignorant, do not know how to vote, drink whisky and gamble all day, send their kids into prostitution to support them..etc etc)

with respect, you miss the point...that is that there should be a legitimate purpose; no one with half a brain is gonna work and do what it takes to go forward if they are aware that some stupid hi-so student with the necessary connections can do the same without the same effort...

teachers everywhere do not get the respect that they deserve...the work is difficult , thankless and low paid. but I know that there were a couple that made a big difference in my life...in my senior year of high school I got busted for dope when possession of a couple of numbers got you 1 to 5 in the joint. There were 4 or 5 that signed a letter to have the judge think about what he was doing....they didn't have to do that...When I was in my late 20's I still couldn't do algebra and there was a teacher...a bored LA jew...who simply said 'look here tuts...here are a few examples...anyone can do it'. Turns out that arithmatic and applied math are two different things however math and science teachers don't tell you that...they cultivate their little nerd minions and tell the rest of us to get fcuked.

(oh, god...now you got me started...)

btw...I've got good expository smarts meself or so I've been told by both liberal arts and engineering professors...but, I'm too old and beat...I just want to stay home in bed with my wife and my nieces...('ao vodka!' and a drink appears...'ao hotdog' and 7-11's finest appears...what more could a falang want?)

Edited January 20, 2008 by tutsiwarrior

[Xangsamhua]

How about learning them (Thai's) Chinese?

Would it not make more sense?

Yes, Chinese is important, too, and perhaps easier to learn for Thai students. However, while Chinese is important in the region, so is English. Whether doing business with the Nanyang Chinese in Singapore, the Philippines or Vietnam, English is likely to be as helpful as Mandarin Chinese, and probably more so. A couple of years ago it was estimated that the number of people outside China learning Mandarin as a second language was about 20 million. At the same time the number of people in China alone learning English was about 250 million.

Chinese would be the logical third language for Thailand for dealing with the outside world. As more resources should be put into English, so they should go into Chinese as well, but English will open more doors.

Of course, all this implies a serious attempt to use education as a vehicle for change and advancement. While education is used primarily as a vehicle for containment and control, these developments won't occur and certainly won't be extended to the common people. The emergence of an analytical and critical approach to education IMHO won't come about as the result of planning, only by some unforeseen upheaval or, perhaps, by osmosis (by 2595, as Peace Blondie suggests).

I agree with most of what you said but the number of Chinese studying English is far out...far out.

What you probably read (or meant) is that this number of Chinese -ever- studied English at one point in their lives. So, it's a total number.

This is an excerpt from an article of 2006 and maybe the number increased since then:

"The ministry's statistics suggested that the current number of students enrolled on Chinese campuses amounted to 23 million, which is the world's largest group of foreign language learners."

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200603/2...327_253675.html

Of course that number (23M) has to be increased, and I think considerably, because there are many..many private institutions/evening schools teaching English, apart from the campuses. Also, many Chinese primary schools hire English teachers (not even qualified ones...) to boost their image but at the same time, the knowledge of the children. Many parents are very proud of their kids, starting to speak/read/write English, especially amongst the growing middle class.

They recognize the importance of English for the future of their children.....is that the same amongst Thai middle class ?

LaoPo

Thanks Lao Po. Yes, the numbers may be questioned, and I can't remember where I got the 250 million figure from, but it was bandied about a couple of years ago on the net. However, I see the figure of 300 million currently studying English in the PRC cited on the following site, and it seems a respectable source: http://www.teacher.org.cn/doc/ucedu200608/ucedu20060813.pdf

I guess the question is whether everyone's simply citing secondary sources and an urban legend's getting round or whether someone has actually officially totted up all the numbers. Still, if there are 23 million students on university campuses and you then add all the kids doing English in school plus all the people studying at night and on weekends, and language classes run by the PLA and government agencies, etc. in China, it will add up.

On the matter of how seriously English is taken in China vis-a-vis Thailand, I heard a chap from the British Council at a conference here three years ago saying that in China they'd started seriously boosting resources for teaching and learning English "10 years ago" (i.e. 1995). Thailand is falling further and further behind. I can't see the situation improving except for those who are already in a good position to improve their English here and/or abroad. The will just isn't really there.

Cheers.

Xangsamhua

[sonnyJ]

I have been reading this topic with great interest as Education is I believe the answer for most of the topics discussed here..

To start with the India's 75% poorest. I still doubt that all of them know what English means. If they do it's a great achievement for the educational system over there. Considering the size of their Nation. The India's government did a recent survey in 1950's, asking the people were they happy that the British had left and India was an independent country. Many asked who are the British... As I understand English being one of the official languages for more than 60 years, not sure for how long..

What I gathered here is that education is not always about equipment, infrastructure, or about learning some foreign language like English or Mandarin. Though these things might help, skills in language won't make any Thai student to read Tolstoy or Orwell. One of my best experiences in high school was my history teacher figuring out that what are we doing in this class room? The sun is shining, let's go to the park to discuss what was going on in the world 2000 years ago. So we did.

I have to repeat that English language has nothing to do with basic education. It's simply not necessary.

Education, education, education. Encouraged by the government is simply necessary. And these Thai speaking teachers are not going to just appear miraculously from under a rock.

[ade100]

Personally I think the Thai education system is perfectly admirable; it’s the rest of the world that is at fault. The rest of the world is just over-educated and always over complicating things.

The Thai view of the world is simple, pragmatic and effective:

1. There are only two countries in the world: Thailand and Farangland (oh alright there’s Burma and stuff but we don’t really care about them)

2. There is only one political system in the world (The We Love Thailand system). Just rename it but for heavens sake don’t bother changing it.

3. There is only one way to cross a river – a boat of course. Building bridges is really hard and such a waste of time and money.

4. There are only three languages in the world: Thai, Chinese and English. Anything else is just some irrelevant dialect.

There you are: Simple. Who needs universities, colleges and schools when you can stick to the simple Thai model of the world.

OK I am going to add some smileys just in case anyone thinks I am being serious and starts getting all uppity :-) :-) :-)

[LaoPo]

Thanks Lao Po. Yes, the numbers may be questioned, and I can't remember where I got the 250 million figure from, but it was bandied about a couple of years ago on the net. However, I see the figure of 300 million currently studying English in the PRC cited on the following site, and it seems a respectable source: http://www.teacher.org.cn/doc/ucedu200608/ucedu20060813.pdf

I guess the question is whether everyone's simply citing secondary sources and an urban legend's getting round or whether someone has actually officially totted up all the numbers. Still, if there are 23 million students on university campuses and you then add all the kids doing English in school plus all the people studying at night and on weekends, and language classes run by the PLA and government agencies, etc. in China, it will add up.

On the matter of how seriously English is taken in China vis-a-vis Thailand, I heard a chap from the British Council at a conference here three years ago saying that in China they'd started seriously boosting resources for teaching and learning English "10 years ago" (i.e. 1995). Thailand is falling further and further behind. I can't see the situation improving except for those who are already in a good position to improve their English here and/or abroad. The will just isn't really there.

Cheers.

Xangsamhua

Your link caused me a lot of problems with Firefox and when I tried to reach them through Google the same happened and I had to restart again; I hope you understand I won't try again

However the number of 300 Million people -currently- studying English is for several reasons incorrect and far beyond the truth I think. The main reasons are money (expensive) and time (hard and long working hours). It would count for some 25% of the total population. It's still virtually impossible to speak English to anyone in the streets or shops, even in the large cities.

In comparison, more people in LOS speak -a little- English (percentage wise) than in China and that's because of the tourism since decades, but that's Thinglish rather than -studied- English.

LaoPo

[jumnien]

We all love living in Thailand or we wouldn't be here. Most of us come from more educated countries and choose not to live in them. Why would we think Thailand needs to have the unique Thai spirit educated out of them?

[lungbing]

And why should the ability to speak English remove a Thai's unique spirit as you put it?

[jumnien]

And why should the ability to speak English remove a Thai's unique spirit as you put it?

You must be educated; your response proves my point. What country do you come from?

[LaoPo]

We all love living in Thailand or we wouldn't be here. Most of us come from more educated countries and choose not to live in them. Why would we think Thailand needs to have the unique Thai spirit educated out of them?

It's not about 'us' sunrise.

It's about education and thus living improvement of the vast majority of -poor- people in Thailand and their future and future of their children and grand children.

It's not about 'us'. The unique spirit of Thai is in their souls, not their wallets.

LaoPo

[NordicMan]

Thanks Lao Po. Yes, the numbers may be questioned, and I can't remember where I got the 250 million figure from, but it was bandied about a couple of years ago on the net. However, I see the figure of 300 million currently studying English in the PRC cited on the following site, and it seems a respectable source: http://www.teacher.org.cn/doc/ucedu200608/ucedu20060813.pdf

I guess the question is whether everyone's simply citing secondary sources and an urban legend's getting round or whether someone has actually officially totted up all the numbers.

I sincerely doubt that figure. It implies that 25% of the entire population is currently enrolled in an English course. If we assume that young children and older non-business folks (e.g. middle-aged and old farmers) are not studying, it would mean that closer to 50% of the entire population in study-able age are currently enrolled.

I don't think so.

But hey, I could be wrong.

cheers

nm.

[jumnien]

We all love living in Thailand or we wouldn't be here. Most of us come from more educated countries and choose not to live in them. Why would we think Thailand needs to have the unique Thai spirit educated out of them?

It's not about 'us' sunrise.

It's about education and thus living improvement of the vast majority of -poor- people in Thailand and their future and future of their children and grand children.

It's not about 'us'. The unique spirit of Thai is in their souls, not their wallets.

LaoPo

I agree 100% - the Thai spirit is the Thai spirit! Acceptance is the Key!

[Xangsamhua]

Thanks Lao Po. Yes, the numbers may be questioned, and I can't remember where I got the 250 million figure from, but it was bandied about a couple of years ago on the net. However, I see the figure of 300 million currently studying English in the PRC cited on the following site, and it seems a respectable source: http://www.teacher.org.cn/doc/ucedu200608/ucedu20060813.pdf

I guess the question is whether everyone's simply citing secondary sources and an urban legend's getting round or whether someone has actually officially totted up all the numbers. Still, if there are 23 million students on university campuses and you then add all the kids doing English in school plus all the people studying at night and on weekends, and language classes run by the PLA and government agencies, etc. in China, it will add up.

On the matter of how seriously English is taken in China vis-a-vis Thailand, I heard a chap from the British Council at a conference here three years ago saying that in China they'd started seriously boosting resources for teaching and learning English "10 years ago" (i.e. 1995). Thailand is falling further and further behind. I can't see the situation improving except for those who are already in a good position to improve their English here and/or abroad. The will just isn't really there.

Cheers.

Xangsamhua

Your link caused me a lot of problems with Firefox and when I tried to reach them through Google the same happened and I had to restart again; I hope you understand I won't try again

However the number of 300 Million people -currently- studying English is for several reasons incorrect and far beyond the truth I think. The main reasons are money (expensive) and time (hard and long working hours). It would count for some 25% of the total population. It's still virtually impossible to speak English to anyone in the streets or shops, even in the large cities.

In comparison, more people in LOS speak -a little- English (percentage wise) than in China and that's because of the tourism since decades, but that's Thinglish rather than -studied- English.

LaoPo

The abstract and a couple of selected paragraphs for the source are below.

I think we all acknowledge that there are lots of students of English in China, regardless of what the actual figure is. The original point was that English is definitely the acknowledged international language around the world, in China as well, though most probably agree that Mandarin Chinese would be a useful language to have as well.

Actually, the 300 million figure looks a bit suss to me if the author's figures for the number of teachers of English are correct. He/She says there are 800,000 English teachers in the PRC. That would mean that for 300 million learners there are 375 students to every teacher, which seems rather a lot to me.

"Lies, damned lies and statistics"??

Aug. 2006, Volume 3, No.8 (Serial No.21) US-China Education Review, ISSN1548-6613, USA

67

TCSL and TESL in China*

DENG Shi-zhong*

(Southwestern University of Finance and Economics, Chengdu, 610074 / Sichuan University, Chengdu, Sichuan 610064, P. R. China)

Abstract: The recent drive of Chinese modernization and world Globalization has caused the rapid

development of TESL (Teaching of English as a Second Language) and there are currently 300 million ESL

(English as a Second Language) students in China. At the same time, due to similar forces and China's market

economy reform, more and more foreigners are attracted to come to China to study Chinese. Purportedly, at

present there are about 400 thousand overseas students learning Chinese in the mainland. TCSL (Teaching of

Chinese as a Second Language) has turned into an increasingly popular major in modern China. Although TESL

and TCSL have both flourished in China in the past two decades, there are tremendous differences between them.

Beside the great disparity in the number of students enrolled in TESL and TCSL, there are also other differences,

such as the proportion of teachers and students, publication of teaching materials, examination systems,

pedagogical training, etc. By comparing the relative development of TESL and TCSL we can see there is vast

room for expanding TCSL. We will explore these differences and possible action, which will further develop

TCSL in China.

..... The recent drive of Chinese modernization and world globalization has caused the rapid development of

TESL (Teaching of English as a Second Language) and Chinese ESL students currently reach 300 million. At the

same time, due to similar forces and China's market economy reform, more and more foreigners are attracted to

come to China to study Chinese. Purportedly, at present there are about 400 000 overseas students learning

Chinese on the mainland. TCSL (Teaching of Chinese as a Second Language) has turned into an increasingly

popular major in modern China.

Although TESL and TCSL have both flourished in China in the past two decades, there are tremendous

differences between them.

First, there is a large disparity in the number of students enrolled in TESL and TCSL. Chinese students of

TESL reach 300 million in China, or one quarter of the Chinese population. This number includes 23 million

students on university campuses, about 80 million junior and senior high school students, primary school students,

and even the "bilingual" kindergarten students. On the other hand, there are only 90 thousand overseas students

from 200 countries who are learning Chinese on the mainland each year.

* This work was supported by the Scientific Research Fund of Southwestern University of Finance and Economics (No.05Z23).

DENG Shi-zhong, PhD, professor of College of International Education, Southwestern University of Finance and Economics,

master supervisor of TCSL at Sichuan University; research fields: teaching of Chinese as a second language & comparative literature.

......Fifthly, the number of TESL and TCSL teachers varies greatly. There are over 800 000 English teachers in

China including 500 000 high school teachers and 200 000 elementary school teachers. This number also includes

more than 80 000 university teachers. At present, there are about 3 000 Chinese teachers who have obtained the

Certificate for Teaching Chinese as a Foreign Language. Eligible full and part time Chinese teachers reach number

only 6 000 for all of China, or 0.75% of the number of English teachers in China.

[steveromagnino]

Two "EDUCATION" articles this week:

1. In one of them a high-so man from India said the only way for India, out of poverty, is Education, education and education. There are still 350 Million people in India living off less than 1 US Dollar per day...

2. In another article it was mentioned: "After China, (PM of the UK) Mr Brown heads to India where he will announce plans to train 750,000 English teachers there over the next five years"

From BBC.

If only the new Thai Government would stand still for a mere 5 minutes to give this news a thought.....

If Thailand would cooperate also with countries like the UK, USA, Australia and/or New Zealand and create a plan....to train some 43.000* new English teachers in the next 5 years it would give Thailand an enormous boost into the future.

The cash is there but is the Government & Elite willing to invest to educate their people ?

LaoPo

COuld not care less about THai people speaking english; speaking english is not a recipe for country success. Education is, let's focus on teaching people skills they can use rather than a language that most of them will not. With the new era of translation software right around the corner (this year) speaking one language will be less important than ever. All that content they need to speak english at a high level to understand such as trade journals and texts will suddenly be available in their language.

Education is key, but must focus on IT, trades, innovation, creativity, business skills and other specialist areas.

The fact that THailand has gone the effort of acquiring english skills of sorts rather than focusing on content is part of the problem of the last 30 years.

Foreign teachers...sure. But PhDs and experts in their fields, not just language teachers....

[Sakeopete]

Two "EDUCATION" articles this week:

1. In one of them a high-so man from India said the only way for India, out of poverty, is Education, education and education. There are still 350 Million people in India living off less than 1 US Dollar per day...

2. In another article it was mentioned: "After China, (PM of the UK) Mr Brown heads to India where he will announce plans to train 750,000 English teachers there over the next five years"

From BBC.

If only the new Thai Government would stand still for a mere 5 minutes to give this news a thought.....

If Thailand would cooperate also with countries like the UK, USA, Australia and/or New Zealand and create a plan....to train some 43.000* new English teachers in the next 5 years it would give Thailand an enormous boost into the future.

The cash is there but is the Government & Elite willing to invest to educate their people ?

LaoPo

COuld not care less about THai people speaking english; speaking english is not a recipe for country success. Education is, let's focus on teaching people skills they can use rather than a language that most of them will not. With the new era of translation software right around the corner (this year) speaking one language will be less important than ever. All that content they need to speak english at a high level to understand such as trade journals and texts will suddenly be available in their language.

Education is key, but must focus on IT, trades, innovation, creativity, business skills and other specialist areas.

The fact that THailand has gone the effort of acquiring english skills of sorts rather than focusing on content is part of the problem of the last 30 years.

Foreign teachers...sure. But PhDs and experts in their fields, not just language teachers....

In Thailand's case I think you are wrong about the importance of learning to speak English, remember the country's income relies heavily on tourism and may more so in the future. English will always be very important because it is the international language of travel and business.