The Tone Rules - Help Required!

[everydaysthesame]

Hi,

I've been teaching myself thai for nearly two years now and thought it was about time I learnt the tone rules.

It looks a bit intimidating to say the least.

Does anyone have any tips, tricks,mneumonics etc to help learn the tone rules?

I am determined to learn them but just could use some help.

Thanks!

[mangkorn]

Make a giant chart, put it on your wall, and look at it every day.

Seriously.

[everydaysthesame]

Make a giant chart, put it on your wall, and look at it every day.

Seriously.

thanks. might just do that - pin it in front of the toilet or something.

just been on www.learningthai.com they have some good stuff on there including interactive quizzes. still giving me a headache trying it though!

[mangkorn]

I think it'd be better to make your own, drawn in a way that you understand it clearly. I've seen a lot of charts that looked to me like schematic diagrams for nuclear power plants, or something... But when I made my own, it only took a few days to register the entire set of rules to memory.

[Khon Baan Nok]

Hi,

I've been teaching myself thai for nearly two years now and thought it was about time I learnt the tone rules.

It looks a bit intimidating to say the least.

Does anyone have any tips, tricks,mneumonics etc to help learn the tone rules?

I am determined to learn them but just could use some help.

Thanks!

Attached is a Word document I made a year or so ago that summarizes almost all of the rules on a single page. The only thing missing is the fact that the characters อ and ห can be used as silent (i.e. unpronounced) tone modifiers that give middle and high class consonant tones to low class consonants that can't otherwise produce low or rising tones. Two examples: อยู่ "is", or "is at", or "am", and หมา "dog".

I found it useful to base myself on the middle class characters which are alone in being able to produce all five tones without "help" from other characters, and they proceed in the correct tone order with "normal" syllables: M L F H R.

I worked next on the high class characters because I can hear a rising tone better than I can hear any of the others. The tone sequence with "normal" syllables is R L F, which starts from the easily audible R and then reproduces L and F from the above sequence, using the same tone marks.

I worked finally on the low class characters because they are numerous. Their tone sequence is M F H, for which my mnemonic is "Mother <deleted> High". Not very classy, but I could remember it.

I saved the dead syllables (second column in) for last, and still usually have to "deduce" the right tone by thinking through the consonant class, vowel length, and stop character. It's becoming more automatic, but I still have to think about them after two years of rather undisciplined and spare time study.

My original intent was to give you something simple to work with, but upon re-reading the above, it is probably inscrutable, and I'm not even "oriental"!

Look at the chart, I made it myself and I still find it the best "one-stop" visual representation of the basic tone rules that I've come across - I hope it is helpful for you. Good luck.

thai_all_tones.v5.doc

[everydaysthesame]

thank for that khon bannok

I'll have a look and let you know how I get on.

Feeling quite confident now but looks like it'll take me a while.

thanks again

[bkkperson]

So on a scale of 1 to 18...how hard is it to learn Thai??

When i was in Samui i used to do a bit of footie betting and i didnt want to get scammed so i learnt all the numbers in a couple of days.but there again thats easy!!

[chaamguy]

On a scale of 1-8. 1 being easy? I'd say it was off the chart.

I've been studying by myself for about 3 years(I'm a bit of a lazy bastar*d) I need to go to another level, get a Thai graduate or something and move on.

French sounds pretty easy now!

Otny.

Edited January 23, 2008 by chaamguy

[cooL_guY_corY]

informative and helpful. thank you

I think Thai is hard but it is rewarding when you can start to make progress. Exposing yourself to the language constantly is important i think. I am amazed when i see some people who are fluent in 2 or 3 years. Studying seriously full time can do that easily though, shit if you go to Thai school for a year you should be able to speak very well and be good at reading and writing (this is thinking of UTL / AAA/ etc syllabus) Also i think it does take time to get a thai accent going. A lot of people may have difficulty understanding what is said because of alien sounding accents.

[everydaysthesame]

Just to let you know I have been looking at the website I mentioned in a previous post and can now work out tones pretty well - just translated my cigarette packet health warning and got them all right! I recommend it.

[siamesekitty]

I think Khon Baan Nok's chart is pretty good 'cuz it has all the consonants listed in their groups, but all the M L F stuff would just confuse me! When I started to read & write, I had a similar chart in my mind, but with the tone sounds and tone marks switched. That is, I'd have the columns divided by the tones (sound), and have the tone marks for the groups fall under the corresponding sound.

For example, ก้าว ข้าว and ค่า would fall under the same column, under the "mai to" sound

good luck on them tones! tricky, I know..

[Richard W]

Does anyone have any tips, tricks,mneumonics etc to help learn the tone rules?

This is how I learnt them. The rule for dead syllables took longest to learn - I didn't have mnemonic I now have.

Step 1: Learn the sequence for mid class consonants:

0 (no mark, live) - mid

1 (mai ek) - low

2 (mai tho) - falling

3 (mai tri) - high

4 (mai chatawa) - rising

Note that mai tri and mis chatawa should only be used with mid consonants. (Some misspellings ignore this rule.)

Step 2: I find the following paradoxical rule useful:

- low class consonant -> not low tone

- high class consonant -> not high tone

Step 3: The sequence for low class is similar to high, but skips low tone by the above rule, so:

0 (no mark, live) - mid

1 (mai ek) - falling (low is not possible by the above!)

2 (mai tho) - high

Step 4: Now, what is the difference between high and mid consonants? Simply that high consonant, no mark and live syllable has a rising tone.

Step 5: The dead syllables with no tone mark are the same as mai ek, with one exception. If the vowel is short, there isn't time for the pitch to fall, so short, dead with low class consonant is high, not falling.

(There actually are dead syllables with short vowels and falling tone, but they are relatively rare, especially those ending in a cononsonant other than a glottal stop.)

Learning the classes of the consonants is another matter. I did it by realising that the order of the Thai letters and their tone classes is rather like a sequence of elements of elements by atomic number - you need the periodic table for the properties to fall into place. (And Thais have numbers analogous to the chemical 'group VB', but not as complicated - just 5 numbers (should be 8, as Thai is not Sanskrit), but some analogues of group VIII - the Fe Co Ni triad etc.)

[Johpa]

So on a scale of 1 to 18...how hard is it to learn Thai??

When i was in Samui i used to do a bit of footie betting and i didnt want to get scammed so i learnt all the numbers in a couple of days.but there again thats easy!!

On a more gross scale once used by the US State Department to rate difficulty of acquisition by native English speakers (average number of class hours needed to reach a certain level of competency) Thai ranked a 3 out of 4, same as Chinese. Major languages in the level 4 in included Russian, Arabic, and Japanese. I think most of the European languages ranked a level 2.

Thai grammer is pretty straight forward similar to English using a subject-verb-object (SVO) word order. Beware that many of us English speakers find it difficult, in the beginning, to place the question word at the end of a phrase.

I learned reading from an old school professor who had a PhD in linguistics and who, in effect, taught everyone introductory phonetics in order to teach us how to read in Thai. So not only did we learn to read in Thai, but we also learned about open vs closed syllables, voiced vs unvoiced consonants, stop consonants (including the glottal stop) vs all other consonants, points of articulation, etc.

Most of the tone rules reflect the phonetic environment, so it might, at least for some of us, be easier, or at least helpful for those learning in a classroom environment, to learn some basic phonology so that when the folks here talk about closed or open syllables (live of dead syllables) you understand and can apply the rules more generally. And you can search a former thread on the subject, but try to accept that a glottal stop is indeed a real consonant in Thai.

[everydaysthesame]

Just been taking an online tone rule test. Bit confused about this question:s

ลวด (why the font so small sorry) Anyway the word is spelt: Lor Ling, Wor Waen, Dor Dek.

The correct tone for this is Falling. Is that becasue Wor Waen counts as a long syllable in this word?

thanks!

[meadish_sweetball]

ว in this word represents the diphthong 'ua' which is a long vowel sound - yes.

So for this syllable you have

low consonant class initial ล

+

stop final ด (=dead syllable)

+

long vowel sound (ว /ua/)

= falling tone.

[ElZorro]

Attached is a Word document I made a year or so ago that summarizes almost all of the rules on a single page. (...)

I think you typed ฃ (ขวด) in the low consonant group instead of ซ (โซ่).

[Khon Baan Nok]

Attached is a Word document I made a year or so ago that summarizes almost all of the rules on a single page. (...)

I think you typed ฃ (ขวด) in the low consonant group instead of ซ (โซ่).

Ouch! Right you are. I just picked up my new glasses on Friday afternoon, and can see well enough to make the correction!

Corrected version attached.

thai_all_tones.v6.doc

[hmj]

I have had a go at learning the tone rules. In the attached .pdf file you can read about it.

Please let me know if there are errors, misunderstandings or imcomprehensible texts.

ThaiToneRules.pdf

[kriswillems]

I have had a go at learning the tone rules. In the attached .pdf file you can read about it.

Please let me know if there are errors, misunderstandings or imcomprehensible texts.

I found this sentence a bit confusing (in de PDF file)

"Syllable with mai-tai-kuu: syllable is shortened but the tone is unchanged"

Because the syllable is shortened the tone also changes very often. For instance:

เม็ด has a high tone

without mai-tai-kuu it would have a falling tone.

I know what they mean, but I had to think twice to understand it.

[kriswillems]

Here's another little table that explains the tone rules (I used the similarities between the classes to simplify the table).

tone.pdf

[hmj]

To kriswillems,

Can you give another example please. My dictionary (Thai-English Student's Dictionary, Compiled by Mary R.Haas) does not list a word เม็ด without a mai-tai-kuu.

Have you tried using the consonant clusters with ง น ม ย ร ล ว ? I have added this at the end but I

can not place it correctly and I have not used it for a very long time.

[meadish_sweetball]

I think what Chris means is that if you remove the mai tai kuu from เ็ม็ด you get เมด which, although it does not exist (as far as I know), is still a possible word in Thai, and the only difference in spelling from เ็ม็ด is the absence of the mai tai kuu.

Since we're just dealing with the tone rules here, it does not matter that the word does not exist, the important thing is that it is a regularly spelt word and a possible word under Thai spelling rules.

Following the tone rules, the pronunciation of this word would be mêed (long vowel sound, falling tone).

It's the same difference as มัก vs. มาก - both syllables have a low class initial consonant and a stop as the final consonant.

Hence, they are both so called 'dead syllables'. The difference is in the vowel length, and as we know from the tone rules, the vowel length changes the tone in words with a low class initial and final stop.

So to write that mai tai kuu does not change the tone is a bit confusing, because even though that is not its primary function, the absence of it in this case means the syllable's tone would be different.

I hope that's not too confusing.

[Johpa]

Hence, they are both so called 'dead syllables'. The difference is in the vowel length, and as we know from the tone rules, the vowel length changes the tone in words with a low class initial and final stop.

So to write that mai tai kuu does not change the tone is a bit confusing, because even though that is not its primary function, the absence of it in this case means the syllable's tone would be different.

Just to put in some perspective, vowel length also changes tones in English words, although it has no phonemic affect, that is it does not change meaning. In English the tone is influenced by the final consonant in a syllable and by whether than consonant is voiced or unvoiced. (In Thai, all final stops are unvoiced)

English unvoiced stops include /k/, /t/, and /p/. Their equivalent voiced stops are /g/, /d/, and /b/.

Look at these pairs:

book boog (as in boogie or bugger)

seat seed

gape Gabe (the name)

The first in each pair tends to be a shorter vowel with a higher tone than does the second in the pair. Looking for similar pairs you will note that English also prefers unvoiced consonants to end single syllable words. The tone rules are based upon the phonetic environment, sometimes now historical, and not based upon consonant classes.

The Thai writing system, like English writing system, suffers a bit from having borrowed an alphabet as well as having borrowed a great deal of vocabulary from Pali which included sounds not allowed in Thai; i.e. the /sh/ sound. Although, IMHO, Thai does not quite rise to the same level of bastardization as does English. Mind you, there is nothing wrong with a bit of bastardization, just that it makes learning to read a bit more difficult in the beginning stages.

[kriswillems]

Thanks meadisch. That's exactly what I meant

A better example than the example I gave before would be

แล็กโตส : แล็ก has high tone (lactose)

แลก : falling tone (exchange)

[kriswillems]

The table of the tone rules (which I gave before) can be summarized as follows:

Remember for each tone mark which tone it represents (on mid class consonants)

Here are the tone rules:

Syllable with tone mark: follow the tone mark

---- exception : low class initial consonant: take the next tone mark

Syllable without tone mark:

---- Dead syllable = Low tone

-------- exception: low class initial consonant

----------- short vowel = high tone

----------- long vowel = falling tone

---- Life syllable = mid tone

-------- exception: high class initial consonant = rising tone

Edited January 29, 2008 by kriswillems

[Richard W]

The Thai writing system, like English writing system, suffers a bit from having borrowed an alphabet as well as having borrowed a great deal of vocabulary from Pali which included sounds not allowed in Thai; i.e. the /sh/ sound.

Just a minor point - Pali did not have /sh/ - so bo ruesi and so kho sala (generally) reflect Sanskrit spelling. However, it does seem to me that a lot of Pali loans have had their spelling Sanskritised.

[Lithobid]

Here's another little table that explains the tone rules (I used the similarities between the classes to simplify the table).

Hey Kris, Great table, I studied it for about five minutes, and instantly it made my other books organization make sense. I woke up to it, in a sense. I took the liberty of modifying the table a bit, and inserted some Thai examples, and now as I read, if I am unsure of how to pronounce a word, this table allows me to find the correct pronunciation very quickly.

For those of you who are fluent speakers, please give me corrections to any errors, and I will repost.

For those of you like me, who are crawling along, hopefully this helps out a bit. I've used fairly common words, at least most of which are in my begining reading books.

Good Luck!

Lithobid

[DavidHouston]

Did you mean คาบ instead of ครบ and ขาบ instead of ขบ ?

[Lithobid]

No I didn't mean those, I didn't know I was wrong, lol, I love your polite way of saying HEY! fix this!

Thanks I'll put up a repost, you have me ROFL!

You know, I've been thinking at the end of this year, uprooting to BKK, and doing an ED visa, such as something like the Walen school, What's your (extremely valuable) opinion on something like this David?

Appreciate the help!

Lithobid

[DavidHouston]

No I didn't mean those, I didn't know I was wrong, lol, I love your polite way of saying HEY! fix this!

Thanks I'll put up a repost, you have me ROFL!

You know, I've been thinking at the end of this year, uprooting to BKK, and doing an ED visa, such as something like the Walen school, What's your (extremely valuable) opinion on something like this David?

Appreciate the help!

Lithobid

Giving up Phuket for Bangkok??? I would think that the only way to do that would be with a significant dosage of Lithobid. Why would one give up individual instruction in your current location for a class structure in the metropolis? And, besides, the ขนมจีนน้ำยา and ปลาเผา in your current environment cannot be matched in Gotham.