Farang Ki Nok

[jay33]

One last thing: this has also been covered elsewhere, but the guava gets its name from the foreigners who brought it to Thailand, not the other way around. Variations on the word "farang" are found all over the world, and the term is most reliably hypothesized to originate from the Arabic word for "Frank" (as in Charlemagne's empire), and then spread across Europe and Asia by Persian traders.

Thanks for pointing that out (again) Rikker and should be put in a thread of common misconceptions.

Probably going to add the second one here, but which came first ฝรั่งเศส or ฝรั่ง – the French or the Guava?

I think in each of these examples the origins of the words and the current usage and common understanding of the words by the Thai population are different and therefore it becomes more difficult to pinpoint an exact meaning/usage and is the reason why it is open to debate and this thread exists. But I guess this is hardly surprising as I do not know the Latin/Greek origin of words in the English language.

From my personal experience the most common form of the phrase "stingy", used amongst Thais, is now งก (which is of course is never นก) which according to the dictionary means "covet, crave, desire, wish for" but to me the context always made it sound like a milder (rather than the dictionary definition of ขี้ used to proceed a habitual negative trait) version of ขี้งก, which I think everyone does agree is slang for "stingy".

[jay33]

I just spoke to a Thai friend and took the opportunity to ask them about the issues discussed in this thread, after they had asked me about some English words, which I hope meant they put more effort into talking about a subject that I wouldn’t normally feel comfortable bringing up in polite conversation.

They responded with the following: -

งก (ngok), ขี้งก (khii ngok) and ขี้เหนียว (khii niaow) all mean "stingy" and neither phrase was particularly polite and therefore ฝรั่งขี้งก (khii nok) means "stingy farang".

ฝรั่งขี้นก (farang khii nok) meant in their words "a farang with little or no money/assets living from paycheck to paycheck". .

When asked about the “Thai behaving like a westerner” meaning, they didn’t respond, which could mean they were unaware of the original meaning or it was a slightly sensitive and/or inappropriate question.

They had not heard the phrase of ขี้นก (khii nok) used without the proceeding ฝรั่ง (farang).

Their (mis)perception was that the ฝรั่ง (Caucasian) was named after the ฝรั่ง (guava) because when they were growing up the fruit was always present and any experience of a Caucasian came later in life.

To be honest these were pretty much the answers I was expecting, but I would be far from surprised if someone could find a possibly more educated Thai to come up with a different or more comprehensive set of answers but may struggle to get them to discuss the topic in a completely open manner.

[mangkorn]

The notion of a farang of limited means, and a stingy farang, are not mutually exclusive. Of course the backpacker is going to be stingy, because he doesn't have much money and will thus seek to go on the cheap. In that sense, the expression conveys both meanings. That is different from a farang who obviously does have money, but is still cheap.

[Rikker]

Probably going to add the second one here, but which came first ฝรั่งเศส or ฝรั่ง – the French or the Guava?

Well, the guava would have come to Thailand from the Americas via the Portuguese or Spanish, who both have had contact with Thailand longer than the French (see here and here). I've read that the guava likely spread across Southeast Asia after being introduced into the Philippines, though.

I found this interesting tidbit on Google Books:

Siam seems indebted to European intercourse for the guava (Psidium Pomiferum) and the Papia fig (Carica Papajd); the first of which is called, in the language of the country, the fruit of Malacca (Maloko), and the second, the banana of the Franks (Kloa-Farang).

(From Journal of an Embassy from the Governor-general of India to the Courts of Siam and Cochin China by John Crawfurd, published 1830.)

He seems to have mixed up the names of the two, and his romanized spelling of the native words is suspect, but this is a gem because it's so early--1830. I've never heard of the Malacca/มะละกอ connection, but it sounds reasonable. What's more interesting is that he says the guava was called กล้วยฝรั่ง.

That doesn't exactly answer your question, but personally I'd say that the pronunciation/spelling of the first syllable of ฝรั่งเศส was influenced by the already existing word ฝรั่ง 'white foreigner'. But I wonder if we can turn up some more evidence of when exactly the guava entered the equation, before or after the French...

Edited February 29, 2008 by Rikker

[rak sa_ngop]

Probably going to add the second one here, but which came first ฝรั่งเศส or ฝรั่ง – the French or the Guava?

Well, the guava would have come to Thailand from the Americas via the Portuguese or Spanish, who both have had contact with Thailand longer than the French (see here and here). I've read that the guava likely spread across Southeast Asia after being introduced into the Philippines, though.

I found this interesting tidbit on Google Books:

Siam seems indebted to European intercourse for the guava (Psidium Pomiferum) and the Papia fig (Carica Papajd); the first of which is called, in the language of the country, the fruit of Malacca (Maloko), and the second, the banana of the Franks (Kloa-Farang).

(From Journal of an Embassy from the Governor-general of India to the Courts of Siam and Cochin China by John Crawfurd, published 1830.)

He seems to have mixed up the names of the two, and his romanized spelling of the native words is suspect, but this is a gem because it's so early--1830. I've never heard of the Malacca/มะละกอ connection, but it sounds reasonable. What's more interesting is that he says the guava was called กล้วยฝรั่ง.

That doesn't exactly answer your question, but personally I'd say that the pronunciation/spelling of the first syllable of ฝรั่งเศส was influenced by the already existing word ฝรั่ง 'white foreigner'. But I wonder if we can turn up some more evidence of when exactly the guava entered the equation, before or after the French...

Interestingly I believe the Issan slang for a foreigner is 'maak sida' which is also the word for guava. Better to be called a farang than a sida, which is the French acronym for Aids.

[Rikker]

I would presume that หมากสีดา meant 'guava' first, and was later expanded to refer to 'foreigner' as a humorous reference to the Thai homonyms, and stuck.

I wonder where the name หมากสีดา comes from, though. I assume it's a reference to Sida สีดา, the character from the Ramakien, but I don't know why she would have a fruit named after her...

[Briggsy]

The notion of a farang of limited means, and a stingy farang, are not mutually exclusive. Of course the backpacker is going to be stingy, because he doesn't have much money and will thus seek to go on the cheap. In that sense, the expression conveys both meanings. That is different from a farang who obviously does have money, but is still cheap.

I like mangkorn's post. It's excellent.

I wasn't going to enter the fray of this thread again (unintentional pun) but I've been sucked in. I am thrifty and proud of it but I am certainly not short of money and don't live from hand to mouth. Thus I am to some extent a magnet for these (usually joking) insults. Here is the frequency with which these terms have been applied to me.

งก 5 times (=4%)

ขี้งก 2 times (=2%)

ฝรั่งขี้งก 0 times (=0%)

ขี้เหนียว 80 times (=71%)

ฝรั่งขี้เหนียว 10 times (=9%)

ฝรั่งขี้นก 15 times (=14%)

Perhaps the most startling statistic is the frequency of "farang khee nok" (14%) vs farang khee ngok" 0%. As I may appear money-grubbing yet not shabby I think I am more "farang khee ngok" rather than "farang khee nok". Yet the "farang khee ngok" description has never been applied to me. Could I have misheard? Yes, it is possible but less likely as I have never had problems distinguishing "nok" and "ngok"

I think the answer lies in the frequency of use of the 2 collocations. "Farang khee nok" is more common. I would be supported in this by a google search. "Farang khee nok" gives 11,500 hits. "Farang khee ngok" gives 128 hits.

[Jared]

So whats the reply when someone mentions that word in your direction.

[Virin]

The meaning of farang khee nok is not limited to financial status, rich or poor or ขี้เหนียว or ขี้งก but also includes those drunkards, low lives, scum, sex tourists, sexpats,..........all the bad things . Lately I have heard people say "why are there many farang khee nok in Thailand?" .

Edited March 2, 2008 by Virin

[CuriousGeorge77]

The wife says "khee nok" meant stingy before it was associated with farang. Also, she says it essentially means low class foreigners, kind of like "khun joon"

Siam seems indebted to European intercourse for the guava (Psidium Pomiferum) and the Papia fig (Carica Papajd); the first of which is called, in the language of the country, the fruit of Malacca (Maloko), and the second, the banana of the Franks (Kloa-Farang).

How is this possible? The Banana is from SE Asia, not Europe... The first reference to the banana comes from India, not too far away and certainly not unknown to the Thais...

[sutnyod]

"Falang dang mo, khee lot moto...." Do kids still chant that?

Yes. Although mostly I hear it as "Falang dang mo, khee lot Otto" :-D

Edited March 5, 2008 by sutnyod

[Rikker]

Siam seems indebted to European intercourse for the guava (Psidium Pomiferum) and the Papia fig (Carica Papajd); the first of which is called, in the language of the country, the fruit of Malacca (Maloko), and the second, the banana of the Franks (Kloa-Farang).

How is this possible? The Banana is from SE Asia, not Europe... The first reference to the banana comes from India, not too far away and certainly not unknown to the Thais...

I don't understand what the logical problem is. The banana is a native fruit, and so they take something native and well-known and add a new modifier to it to describe something foreign. It's not suggesting that กล้วย is a foreign fruit, but that the guava is called กล้วยฝรั่ง 'foreign banana'.

Thai does this with the word ฝรั่ง and เทศ in a number of vegetable names. มะเขือ is any of several native plants of the eggplant family, but มะเขือเทศ means 'foreign makhuea', i.e. tomato. Cilantro is ผักชี, but parsley is ผักชีฝรั่ง 'farang's cilantro'. Sometimes the lemon is called มะนาวเทศ 'foreign lime', etc.

[mangkorn]

The wife says "khee nok" meant stingy before it was associated with farang. Also, she says it essentially means low class foreigners, kind of like "khun joon"

Siam seems indebted to European intercourse for the guava (Psidium Pomiferum) and the Papia fig (Carica Papajd); the first of which is called, in the language of the country, the fruit of Malacca (Maloko), and the second, the banana of the Franks (Kloa-Farang).

How is this possible? The Banana is from SE Asia, not Europe... The first reference to the banana comes from India, not too far away and certainly not unknown to the Thais...

"khun joon"??

Who's "khun joon"?

And the quote you criticize refers to the guava and Papia fig, not bananas.

[Briggsy]

"khun joon"??

Who's "khun joon"?

And the quote you criticize refers to the guava and Papia fig, not bananas.

ึึ๕๕

ภรรยาของคุณ Terry มั้ง

หรือ "คนจน"?????

[BecTero1]

I'd like to add if anyone calls you kee-niaow or "cheap charlie" you can reply:

Pom pen khon pra-yad, mai chai khon kee niaow!!

[jay33]

Probably going to add the second one here, but which came first ฝรั่งเศส or ฝรั่ง – the French or the Guava?

Well, the guava would have come to Thailand from the Americas via the Portuguese or Spanish, who both have had contact with Thailand longer than the French (see here and here). I've read that the guava likely spread across Southeast Asia after being introduced into the Philippines, though.

Interesting article on Wikipedia, which suggests 2 different possible origins: -

1) in the Ayutthaya period, land was given to the Portuguese merchants to conduct their business at "Baan Farang" (Guava Village).

2) from either the word "frank" via the Arabic word "firinjia" or from the Arabic word "afrandj".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farang

I would presume that หมากสีดา meant 'guava' first, and was later expanded to refer to 'foreigner' as a humorous reference to the Thai homonyms, and stuck.

I've only knowingly been called บักสี่ตา (Issan Lao dialect) before but again wonder which one orginated first?

ขี้เหนียว 80 times (=71%)

Whilst especially in the past, I may have been called ขี้เหนียว more than งก or ขี้งก, from my experience Thai friends tend to use งก with each other more as a recent trend but that may well just be the ones I know.

Your stats do leave me feeling highly inadequate; either I must get out far more, greatly develop my memory skills and/or act more stingy...or most likely all three.

[Rikker]

Interesting article on Wikipedia, which suggests 2 different possible origins: -

1) in the Ayutthaya period, land was given to the Portuguese merchants to conduct their business at "Baan Farang" (Guava Village).

2) from either the word "frank" via the Arabic word "firinjia" or from the Arabic word "afrandj".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farang

My thoughts:

1) I'd say the translation Baan Farang as 'Guava Village' is a "helpful" translation by the author of that part of the Wikipedia article, but is based on a lack of appreciation for the 'chicken and egg' nature of this problem. I doubt it was literally understood to mean 'Guava Village' at the time. It's not even clear to me that guava/foreigner wordplay existed that far back, especially since the (much later) 19th Century source I cited earlier claims the fruit is called กล้วยฝรั่ง 'foreigner banana'. We need to establish clearly just when ฝรั่ง by itself came to mean guava, and not as a modifier for some other noun.

2) This is much more on the right track. The history of this article on Wikipedia is a history of this whole debate, though. Sometimes there has been quite good information that has been edited away by well-meaning users in favor of common (mis)conceptions. On the whole, the article is not well sourced and not particularly trustworthy in my estimation. To its credit, it throws all the theories out there, but some of them can be fairly easily discredited (and should be). While it's not a whole lot better, I found this Linguist List discussion useful.

I've only knowingly been called บักสี่ตา (Issan Lao dialect) before but again wonder which one orginated first?

I'm going to go out on a limb here (I know your linguistic prowess here, Jay), but isn't "สี่ตา" a mistake for สีดา? I've always been under the impression the name was a reference to สีดา, the main female character from the Ramakien, though I've sometimes wondered how the Lao guava came to have that name. Since Thai script is often used to represent Isan Lao, I think it's fair to support my claim with an internet search in Thai (Lao not being handily available on this machine). There is only one single unique reference to the phrase บักสี่ตา on the internet, in the same Wikipedia article on Farang that you linked:

In the Isan Lao dialect, the guava is called bak seeta (TH: บักสี่ตา "Mr. Four-eyes"), which is sometimes jocularly refers also to a farang.

Looking at the history, up until one month ago, it said 'bak seeda' (though prior to that it said 'mak seeda') with no Thai script given, and then user Pawyilee changed it to say 'bak see taa' and added '(TH: บักสี่ตา "Mr. Four-eyes")'. We can tell from his user page that he is a farang himself. All other instances of บักสี่ตา that Google indexes are simples pages that mirror the Wikipedia article. So if there are native speakers out there who call guavas and farangs บักสี่ตา, my best guess is that it's a reanalysis of สีดา, or some dialectical variation that became reanalyzed. Either way, สี่ตา 'four eyes' is etymologically irrelevant, as far as I'm concerned.

A couple of things: In some Isan/Lao dialects, หมาก has become หมัก, in others it has become บัก. For those in which it became บัก, บัก is a homonym, meaning both fruit (หมาก became หมัก became บัก), but also is used as a familiar appellation before the name of a male, as in บักเนียรแดกเหล้าอีกแล้วบ่ 'Nien, (are you) boozing again?' (ref). (It also refers to the male genitals, which is the source of the Isan jokes about a guy named บักหำ, but that's beside the point).

So I think there are a number of things going on here. The best evidence I can find supports that the etymological origin is หมากสีดา (seeda fruit), which became หมักสีดา in some dialects, and บักสีดา in others, and since some Lao dialects had the บัก/บัก homonym, บักสีดา became a joke, because of the clear dual meaning. I would surmise that this leap from บักสีดา (fruit) to บักสีดา (joking name for foreigner) was semantically influenced by the pre-existing ฝรั่ง/ฝรั่ง wordplay in Thai, but I have no evidence for which actually came first, it just makes sense to me in a logical cause-and-effect way.

Edited March 11, 2008 by Rikker

[sutnyod]

I had the "Khi Nok" discussion with friends in Laos. Their version: the word first came up when most of the Farangs (human) seen by the locals were military. Their camouflage cloths looked like, well, full of Khi Nok. I believed it at that time and it sounds plausible.

[sarahsbloke]

For those who make no effort to study the Thai language and just use a dictionary.

The Thai language is not as easy as look the word up in a dictionary suggests.

'khee' in Thai can mean either 'shit' or turn a verb into a negative trait in a person.

If used in a sentence before an animal capable of producing pooh = shit

If used before a verb, it is a modifier and turns the verb into a negative human trait.

Pair = lose therefore khee pair = loser

Mao = drunk, therefore khee mao = drunkard

Neow = sticky, therefore Khee neow = sticky person ( or money sticks to them = mean)

maa = dog, therefore khee maa = dog shit

nok = bird therefore khee nok = bird shit

I hope this explanation clears it up for everyone.

Edited October 19, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[SamboVilla]

Although I agree with the posts by people who seem to have a knowledge or have researched into what they have written, I think there is another, less scientific point to make.

That is that Farang-Khee-Nok is also a type of fruit (I'm aware this point has also been made) that is green on the outside but red inside. I believe that there indeed may be times when the saying is used as an insult, but if you know Thai people you will know that they just like to say things that are funny. If you ask me, a fruit with this name is pretty funny.

Since they like to call us Caucasians "Farangs" (mush to the dismay of some), it is inevitable that the extension "Farang-Khee-Nok" will be used as it is also a fruit. The vast majority of times, no insult is intended.

[Tod Daniels]

While this doesn’t really address the O/P’s topic, I see enough people have weighed in on it that I won’t even attempt to further muddy the water.

Still, readers may find the following of interest (then again maybe not)

Sometimes in Northeastern Dialect you're just as likely to hear the word; บักสีดา when the thais talk about a white foreigners instead of the Central Dialect word; ฝรั่ง.

For those who make no effort to study the Thai language and just use a dictionary.

<SNIP>

If used in a sentence before an animal capable of producing pooh = shit

If used before a verb, it is a modifier and turns the verb into a negative human trait.

<SNIP>

Pair = lose therefore khee pair = loser

I hope this explanation clears it up for everyone.

Just as an aside (and not to be overly pendantic );

For those who also don't write thai words in thai script it can make for a tough row to hoe pronunciation wise as well.

An example of the word "to lose"; which you write as "pair" and can be pronounced a myriad of ways depending on where you actually come from and what accent you happen to speak engrish with. However seeing as the thai word has NO thai character representing an "r" sound in it, I find your engrish a little tough to work out. The actual thai word is spelled like this; แพ้. Then again if it works for you, stick with it. Who am I to piss on your parade?

Be that as it may, I totally agree with your explanation of the word ขี้ as far as meaning; excrement, dung, feces, or a waste product, AND when being used with a descriptive term morphs it into a negative personality trait.

Some of the more common usages in reference to it emphasizing a negative personality trait are;

ขี้บ่น complainer

ขี้โม้ boastful

ขี้เหนียว stingy, parsimonious

ขี้โมโห easily riled, or given to fits of unreasonable anger

ขี้ยา drug addict

ขี้เมา drunkard

ขี้แพ้ loser

ขี้คุก jailbird

ขี้ขโมย thieving

ขี้โกง cheater

ขี้กลัว scaredy-cat, too timid.

Don't forget that can also be used in front of nouns to give the meaning (waste from) like in ขี้บุหรี่; cigarette ash, ขี้มูก; snot, ขี้ตา; eye secretion. It's also used in the word for beeswax ขี้ผึ้ง.

Strange as it may seem, I have also heard it used to describe the ingrained thai cultural phenomena called เกรงใจ in a negative light. In an instance of, when a person is so overly sensitive to everyone else’s feelings that they are unable to actually make a decision, as in ขี้เกรงใจ. Often seen in an office setting when a project stalls out due to the project coordinator being overly sensitive to stepping on any toes to get something done, and therefore nothing actually ever gets done.

And lets NOT forget the ever popular yet mildly contemptuous curse; ไอ้ขี้แพ้! (Loser!).

Still I find ขี้ a very useful word. I often tell the thais that in some ways it’s analogous to the engrish word 'fuc_k', also a multi-usage descriptive word.

In fact, here is an insightful You Tube video, which George the ผู้ใหญ่บ้าน of T/V linked to a while ago on another sub-forum, and which I will provide again for your viewing pleasure;

One usage in there is priceless; "Why don't you go outside and play hide and go fuc_k yourself?"

[Tod Daniels]

I hafta add one more word to the ขี้ thread (even though that is NOT the title)!!

This is one that Ive heard all too many times, but heard again tonite;

ขี้หึง overly jealous, to the extent you dont even let your b/f-g/f go piss alone for fear they will call someone else on their mobile.

Sorry Im just throwing these words out to get some response on this thread which is BTW dead already. ..

Edited October 21, 2010 by tod-daniels

[DavidHouston]

You mean that you wanted the thread to go viral, but it ended up scatological?