ความสุขของกะทิ Translation

[kriswillems]

I am reading ความสุขของกะท and there's one paragraph that I don't understand completely.

Kathi and her grandfather are sitting together near the water and Kathi is bragging about her grandfather: he's rich, he was ever a first class lawyer, the village would be lost without him,....

And then the grandfather comes into action:

ตายกมือห้าม ถามเรียบ ๆ ว่าจะทําขวัญนาคกันหรืออย่างไร ร่ายยาวตั้งแต่อยู่ในท้องแม่เลยดีไหม เรียกเสียงฮาลั่นทั่วคั้งนํ้า

กะทิเลี่ยงออกมานี้เอง

This is what I understand:

Grandfather lift his hand and forbids her to go on. He smoothly asks her "are you going to do the naga ceremony with me or what?" "So the (long) poem of your life since you were in your mothers belly was good, right?" Grandfather loudly shouts "ha" (so it can be heard) all over the lake/pool. Kathi falls out of her rhythm and stops (bragging) by herself.

Am I understanding the text correctly? What about ทําขวัญนาคกัน. I suppose it's some kind of ceremony? And why do they talk about it here?

Edited March 2, 2008 by kriswillems

[kriswillems]

The last sentence should have been:

กะทิเลี่ยงออกมาจังหวะนี้เอง

And I am also not sure about the translation of this sentence. It could be: "Kathi avoided this chance/opportunity herself". If this would be the translation, I think grandfather refers to the ceremony (when talking about the opportunity).

PS. For the people that have the book, it's on page 27 on the top.

Edited March 2, 2008 by kriswillems

[kriswillems]

I am also not sure about:

ร่ายยาวตั้งแต่อยู่ในท้องแม่เลยดีไหม

So the detailed explanation of your life since you were in your mothers belly was good, right?

Maybe it should be (because she was talking/bragging about grandfathers past before):

So the detailed explanation of my life since I was in my mothers belly was good, right?

okay, my last try.

ตายกมือห้าม

Grandfather lifts his hand and forbids her to go on.

ถามเรียบ ๆ ว่าจะทําขวัญนาคกันหรืออย่างไร

He smoothly asks her "are you going to do the naga ceremony with me or what?"

ร่ายยาวตั้งแต่อยู่ในท้องแม่เลยดีไหม

"So the detailed explanation of my life since I was in my mothers belly was good, right?"

เรียกเสียงฮาลั่นทั่วคั้งนํ้า

Grandfather loudly shouts "ha ha" (so it can be heard) all over the lake/pool.

กะทิเลี่ยงออกมาจังหวะนี้เอง

Kathi avoided this chance/opportunity herself

Edited March 2, 2008 by kriswillems

[aanon]

hey kris, i'll just offer a translation, but feel free to ask any follow-up questions.

ตายกมือห้าม

Granddad raised a hand to stop him,

ถามเรียบ ๆ ว่า

and asked in deadpan,

จะทําขวัญนาคกันหรืออย่างไร

"Are we doing a TumKwanNak rite* or something?"

ร่ายยาวตั้งแต่อยู่ในท้องแม่เลยดีไหม

"What do you reckon, should we tell the whole story starting from when I was still in the womb?"

เรียกเสียงฮาลั่นทั่วคุ้งนํ้า

A roar of laughter went up across the river.

กะทิเลี่ยงออกมาจังหวะนี้เอง

At this point, Kati left them to it.**

all the best.

notes: the scenario is that various people turn up in their boats to see ตา, probably to ask for his help. ผู้ใหญ่บุญ starts out, as he always does, by going on about how lucky the village is to have had ตา come back to live there. Kati hangs around to hear the start of it.

* the rite is for a person being ordained, to remind them of all that their parents have done for them [i'm not sure, but perhaps he's making a joke that Kati getting the whole explanation about how great he is is like a TumKwanNak rite].

** literally, it just says that she left at this point.

Edited March 3, 2008 by aanon

[aanon]

[i'm not sure, but perhaps he's making a joke that Kati getting the whole explanation about how great he is is like a TumKwanNak rite]

or, more simply, that the long exposition about his virtues sounds like a TKN rite.

[Rikker]

A couple more things:

ร่ายยาว here just literally means 'speak at length'; that ร่ายยาว is also a type of traditional poetry is a coincidence

ดีไหม here means something like 'How about (we)' or 'Should (we)'; literally, 'Would X be good?'

เรียก here could be literally interpreted as 'elicit', as in to call forth. That is, he made the people laugh.

จังหวะ here is referring to that moment in time, something like 'And at this moment, Kati ducked out/left.'

Edited March 3, 2008 by Rikker

[tgeezer]

I am also not sure about:

ร่ายยาวตั้งแต่อยู่ในท้องแม่เลยดีไหม

So the detailed explanation of your life since you were in your mothers belly was good, right?

Maybe it should be (because she was talking/bragging about grandfathers past before):

So the detailed explanation of my life since I was in my mothers belly was good, right?

okay, my last try.

ตายกมือห้าม

Grandfather lifts his hand and forbids her to go on.

ถามเรียบ ๆ ว่าจะทําขวัญนาคกันหรืออย่างไร

He smoothly asks her "are you going to do the naga ceremony with me or what?"

ร่ายยาวตั้งแต่อยู่ในท้องแม่เลยดีไหม

"So the detailed explanation of my life since I was in my mothers belly was good, right?"

เรียกเสียงฮาลั่นทั่วคั้งนํ้า

Grandfather loudly shouts "ha ha" (so it can be heard) all over the lake/pool.

กะทิเลี่ยงออกมาจังหวะนี้เอง

Kathi avoided this chance/opportunity herself

You were right first time; it is her life , he is teasing her referring to it as a long one, all the people join in the laugh, (เสียงฮา is a group of people laughing at a shared joke) and she sneakes away.

[kriswillems]

Thanks Rikker, Aanon, tgeezer,

You translation makes a lot of sense.

There are indeed other people involved that just arrived by boat.

One of the people in the boat comes to talk with Granddad

kathi likes to hear him startup the conversation (in which he uses quite some hints)

(This is just my opinion, but it looks like many people in the village get money from granddad because he was rich and ever worked in bkk. So, it seems logical they talk to him in a rather flattering manner and give some hints in order to get some money from him)

She can almost talk the same as him.

And then follow a part where Kathi talks about granddads life in a very positive manner (bragging)

And then follows the part you just translated.

My limited knowledge of English (and Thai) doesn't allow to make good translations to English. But I completely understand your translation it helps me to understand the Thai text completely.

Thanks again.

[kriswillems]

You were right first time; it is her life , he is teasing her referring to it as a long one, all the people join in the laugh, (เสียงฮา is a group of people laughing at a shared joke) and she sneakes away.

Mmmm. I think I was wrong the first time because not at any moment Kathi talked about her life. She talked about the life of granddad (in a very detailed and long way). I think Aanon also got it right.

I'll go on reading the rest of the book. This is not an easy book for me, so more questions will follow.

Edited March 3, 2008 by kriswillems

[kriswillems]

notes: the scenario is that various people turn up in their boats to see ตา, probably to ask for his help. ผู้ใหญ่บุญ starts out, as he always does, by going on about how lucky the village is to have had ตา come back to live there. Kati hangs around to hear the start of it.

ah!

I got it wrong. So it was ผู้ใหญ่บุญ who did the whole speech! I was confused by the last sentence on page 26.

แต่กะทิชอบฟังตอนผู้ใหญ่บุญเกริ่นนํา พูดเหมือนกันได้ทุกครั้ง

If I understand correctly, kathi just likes how ผู้ใหญ่บุญ can speak the same every time.

It doesn't say kathi can talk the same as ผู้ใหญ่บุญ, as I thought before. I didn't read this sentence carefully enough.

And then the speech of ผู้ใหญ่บุญ follows (about how good granddad is for the village).

Thanks Aanon.

Edited March 3, 2008 by kriswillems

[aanon]

notes: the scenario is that various people turn up in their boats to see ตา, probably to ask for his help. ผู้ใหญ่บุญ starts out, as he always does, by going on about how lucky the village is to have had ตา come back to live there. Kati hangs around to hear the start of it.

ah!

I got it wrong. So it was ผู้ใหญ่บุญ who did the whole speech! I was confused by the last sentence on page 26.

แต่กะทิชอบฟังตอนผู้ใหญ่บุญเกริ่นนํา พูดเหมือนกันได้ทุกครั้ง

If I understand correctly, kathi just likes how ผู้ใหญ่บุญ can speak the same every time.

It doesn't say kathi can talk the same as ผู้ใหญ่บุญ, as I thought before. I didn't read this sentence carefully enough.

And then the speech of ผู้ใหญ่บุญ follows (about how good granddad is for the village).

Thanks Aanon.

you're welcome kris, and you're right - kati likes how he starts out the same way every single time. this issue of working out who did and said what can be a real puzzle at times when reading Thai!

all the best.

[aanon]

if anyone has the english translation of this book, i'd be interested to hear how the translator handled the reference to TumKwanNak. I've been thinking about how it could be handled, and have these ideas so far:

1. Include TumKwanNak and use a translator's footnote to explain the reference (but this is a kid's book!)

2. Change it to a Western cultural reference eg. "What is this, a eulogy or something?"

3. Skip any reference to a ceremony eg "Gee, shouldn't we start the story from when I was still in my mum's tummy? We wouldn't want to leave anything out!"

Are there any other options?

If anyone has the book, the passage kriswillems brought up should be in the 5th short chapter (called 'the shelter by the water' or something similar).

all the best.

[kriswillems]

There are many things in this book that require an understanding about Thai lifestyle and culture. So, I am not sure this book would be a book for children in another language.

For example, on page 33 they talk about กระต่ายขูดมะพร้าว. Even if you can find an English translation for this device, the image in the readers head would probably be very different from the reality. Or the reader might not even know what is meant.

And to make it even worse, a bit further on that page kathi starts wondering why they call this device "a rabit". How do they translate something like this....?

Edited March 4, 2008 by kriswillems

[mangkorn]

A "coconut grater" - I guess you have to imagine the way a rabbit might scrape the coconut flesh with its front teeth. That's probably where the term came from, no?

[siamesekitty]

There are many things in this book that require an understanding about Thai lifestyle and culture.

Then it's a good way to learn, because there are soooo many subtle little things, that can't all be covered in the various books written on Thai culture. Just keep asking

[aanon]

There are many things in this book that require an understanding about Thai lifestyle and culture. So, I am not sure this book would be a book for children in another language.

For example, on page 33 they talk about กระต่ายขูดมะพร้าว. Even if you can find an English translation for this device, the image in the readers head would probably be very different from the reality. Or the reader might not even know what is meant.

And to make it even worse, a bit further on that page kathi starts wondering why they call this device "a rabit". How do they translate something like this....?

yes, it seems that despite its gentle, naive style, this book might offer more challenges to the translator than the average.

well, believe it or not, i found an answer to my earlier question by googling the translator's name. following is her version of the passage we have been discussing. please note, i'm not suggesting studying the two versions together - i'd actually suggest sticking to the thai - but it's interesting to see how she proceeded.

But Kati liked to hear Headman Boon's introductory remarks. He always said the same thing. The village by the water was indeed lucky that Grandpa had chosen to return from Bangkok and retire to his ancestral home, which at the time, had been left completely deserted and had fallen into disrepair. That Grandpa who had studied abroad and was a first class lawyer was well known throughout his home and, indeed, the entire kingdom. That Grandpa had made a fortune but had helped so many people. That if it had not been for Grandpa, the villagers would have been exploited, taken advantage of, and the land of their ancestors… Here Grandpa raised his hand to stop the flow of words and asked smoothly if they were planning to conduct the Kwan Narc recital, that part of the Buddhist ordination ceremony where the ordinand recalls his debt of gratitude to his mother for conceiving him, bearing him and delivering him. Grandpa asked if they would like to include the nine months he spent inside his mother's womb in their recitation. This raised a shout of laughter that could be heard clear across the water. It was at this juncture that Kati slipped away.

http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/comparative_criti...1vejjajiva.html

all the best.

[Rikker]

Not bad, but I wish it would flow better. I would've preferred a footnote rather than a wordy explanation that obviously isn't in the original. Overall, pretty loose translating. Which for me, loose translating should enable it to sound more natural and native to the reader, and this doesn't really accomplish that for me.

[aanon]

Not bad, but I wish it would flow better. I would've preferred a footnote rather than a wordy explanation that obviously isn't in the original. Overall, pretty loose translating. Which for me, loose translating should enable it to sound more natural and native to the reader, and this doesn't really accomplish that for me.

well, according to the back cover of the thai book, prudence borthwick's translation has received some considerable acclaim. nonetheless, i tend to agree with your point. also, to me, the translated passage (and the rest of the translation shown at the link i gave) comes across as far more dense and, for want of a better word, 'difficult' than the original thai version.

regardless, the kind of tricky choices we have discussed and the question of style in translation are by no means simple, and i'm sure the translator put a lot of thought into it, so she has my respect.

all the best.

ps. i wonder what people think of 'asked smoothly' for 'ถามเรียบ ๆ'. to me, the latter implies a neutral voice and facial expression , whereas the english translation says to me he was somehow being skillful or suave.

[Rikker]

I agree with your assessment of smooth.. I think 'simply' fits better, but it may imply something else when placed in context.

"Grandpa held up his hand to stop him and asked simply..."

Something like that.

But as you say, it's very difficult to make all of these choices for an entire text.

[aanon]

I agree with your assessment of smooth.. I think 'simply' fits better, but it may imply something else when placed in context.

"Grandpa held up his hand to stop him and asked simply..."

Something like that.

But as you say, it's very difficult to make all of these choices for an entire text.

perhaps 'plainly', then?

[kriswillems]

A "coconut grater" - I guess you have to imagine the way a rabbit might scrape the coconut flesh with its front teeth. That's probably where the term came from, no?

Yes, in Thai language a cocunut grater is called a "rabbit that scrapes coconuts". How do they translate a word game like this? I guess they simple igore the orginal Thai word and keep the part where kathi wonders why it's called a rabbit (although in the English translation the word "rabbit" was not mentioned before, i.e. it's not part of the name of this device).

[aanon]

A "coconut grater" - I guess you have to imagine the way a rabbit might scrape the coconut flesh with its front teeth. That's probably where the term came from, no?

Yes, in Thai language a cocunut grater is called a "rabbit that scrapes coconuts". How do they translate a word game like this? I guess they simple igore the orginal Thai word and keep the part where kathi wonders why it's called a rabbit (although in the English translation the word "rabbit" was not mentioned before, i.e. it's not part of the name of this device).

well, the translator could look ahead and mention the 'rabbit' thing early, eg.

Kati watched the men using the coconut scraper. They called it a gratai, which actually meant 'rabbit'. As they used the 'rabbit', Kati loved to see the long strings of white coconut flesh being scraped out. etc etc.

this makes it easy for Kati to later wonder about why it was called a 'rabbit'.

OR

the translator could call it a gratai initially, and only mention what 'gratai' means just before Kati begins to wonder about it. eg.

Kati thought about the name 'gratai'. The word really meant 'rabbit', and Kati was wondering how on earth a coconut scraping machine like this could come to be called a 'rabbit'.

Any other options?

all the best.

[Rikker]

perhaps 'plainly', then?

Yeah, that sounds good.