Buddhism And Alcohol

[jaideeguy]

I've been to many wat events where there are too many drunks and even people drinking inside wats. Whiskey vendors surrounding wats, making me wonder if the Monks encourage drinking.

What is the deal on this?? You can see the dammage to thai families, culture, not to mention the safety factor when they weave home on their motorcycles after a late night's drunk at the local wat.

Could someone please explain how a peaceful religion can condone alcoholism??

[PhilHarries]

It must be a fairly new development as I have never seen alcohol available inside a Wat or even in the immediate vicinity. I am sure of this as during the wife's extended merit making sessions I often excused myself and went for a walk looking to get a cold beer or two without luck. Of course most of these instances were at very rural Wats, the situation in the surrounding area is obviously different for a town/city centre location. Still I have not seen anyone consuming alcohol on the premises but this doesn't mean to say it doesn't happen.

How does Buddhism condone alcoholism? I don't suppose it does in any way, maybe some monks turn a blind eye to the presence of booze as a commercial decision. Tainted money being better than no money. Another question is how do the local police condone this where, as far as I recall, the sale of alcohol is prohibited within 500 (?) metres of a Wat. Or is this yet another forgotten law?

[jaideeguy]

If it is a law, then it has always [for the 5 yrs that I've been here] been forgotten [or overlooked$$]. The wat in question is on the outskirts of CM...in a farming community and mostly the occasions were fund raisers. Last night, I would say that at least 70% of the 400-500 [men] were stupid drunk and many bottles went inside the wat in the back pockets of the men. Kids were present as there were amusements [fund raising] for them.

At the very least, not a good example for the kids.

[Brucenkhamen]

If it is a law, then it has always [for the 5 yrs that I've been here] been forgotten [or overlooked$$]. The wat in question is on the outskirts of CM...in a farming community and mostly the occasions were fund raisers. Last night, I would say that at least 70% of the 400-500 [men] were stupid drunk and many bottles went inside the wat in the back pockets of the men. Kids were present as there were amusements [fund raising] for them.

At the very least, not a good example for the kids.

Buddhism does not condone the drinking of alchohol, the 5th precepts of the 5 precepts that Buddhist laypeople are supposed to observe is to abstain from alcohol.

What you see is more a commentary on the state of Thai society and religion.

I can say I've ever observed it in any Wats I've been in but that's because I generally frequent meditation Wats where the standard of conduct is more in line with the Buddhas teaching.

[jaideeguy]

"What you see is more a commentary on the state of Thai society and religion."

A-men.....the state of Thai society!! But that is supposed to be tempered by the dominent religion, correct???

It seems to me as an 'outsider'[who has been here a decade], that Thai society is goverened by the real religion here.....'alcohol' as it has more influence on the 'ordinary folks' than Buddhism.

The 5th precept of Buddhism??

please quote for me please....

[jaideeguy]

OK, Google found it for me and it is really quite simple.......

"Buddhism emphasises wisdom. Taking intoxicant will descend and lose the seed of wisdom. Intoxicants, such as drugs, liquor, smoking, etc., are harmful to health. It seems that taking intoxicant is not hurting others. However, if we are drunk and lose our consciousness, we may easily commit evil deeds and hurt others. Therefore, one who breaks this precept will tend to break all other precepts along with it.

The fifth precept is based on respect for mental health. It guard against the loss of control of one’s mind."

Witnessing last night's 'drunken' event kinda makes me wonder why alcoholism is so ignored in this Buddhist culture. And it is rampant, with whiskey stores on every corner and seeing [obvious] drunks all over, as if to show off that they are drunk and out of control.

Yes, I am a drinker, but I learned early in life that one has to have self control and excercise it. Thais do have a lot of self control in most aspects of their lives, but when it comes to alcohol...they are terribly lacking and in total denial.

I've always had a problem with this aspect of Thai culture and have suffered 'collateral dammage' on a personal level [with wife] and have always dealt with it in a 'falang way' to no satisfaction and am now wondering if I should approach it on a spiritual level instead.

Are there any Buddhist [marriage or alcohol abuse] counceling services available up here in Chiang Mai? preferably

bi-lingual!

[Khnom]

The 5th precept of Buddhism??

please quote for me please....

I'm going to give you 8 of them. Good deal, eh?

http://www.watpahnanachat.org/8-precepts.php

(BTW, the ex-head monk of the wat in the link was a Canadian).

I have to second the 2 replies above - I've never seen alcohol in any of the wats I went.

[jaideeguy]

I can assure you that there is much drinking at our wat and will invite you to witness the next 'event' to see for yourself [by PM]. Admittedly this was a big fund raising event to pay for the newest building at the wat, but I've seen whiskey [and vendors] at other smaller events at same wat and other wats in the area.

Should this be reported??

[Khnom]

Perhaps I should have said that I believe you. Seems like that wat is pretty corrupted.

I'm not sure what to do in this case.

[Slither]

Where I live there is alcohol on the grounds and more in front when there are village festivals, otherwise not. I suppose it is a compromise made with the community and says more about attitudes in Thai society than Buddhism as mentioned already.

Songkran is notorious, I had to be very firm and insistent that I visit the Wat sober, as there usually are numerous drinking parties, even early morning, in the village.

A bit like Christmas in Ireland!

[Pepe']

The one ordination party I went to in Samut Sakorn there were bottles of booze being passed around early in the morning.

I wasn't interested but after continued coaxing took a snort off one of the bottles much to the delight of the crowd me being the only farang there...

[cophen]

"What you see is more a commentary on the state of Thai society and religion."

A-men.....the state of Thai society!! But that is supposed to be tempered by the dominent religion, correct???

It seems to me as an 'outsider'[who has been here a decade], that Thai society is goverened by the real religion here.....'alcohol' as it has more influence on the 'ordinary folks' than Buddhism.

The 5th precept of Buddhism??

please quote for me please....

If Thailand is tempered by their dominant religion then presumably other countries are tempered by their particular dominant religion too? If that's the case name me one country the majority of whose population adhere to the precepts of their religion in the same way you appear to expect the Thais to. If you can't please explain why Thailand should be any different. Why is Thailand expected to adhere to a higher moral standard than other countries?

Edited April 8, 2008 by cophen

[garro]

I think that people misunderstand the precepts and confuse them with sin. Buddhism is more about choices and the results of those choices. If people become intoxicated it interferes with their ability to progress along the Buddhist path. Many people have no ambition to progress and some believe that they can do bad in one area of their life to make up for it by doing good in another. So getting drunk but trying to make merit at the temple.

The monks can only be expected to keep their own precepts and not the precepts of others. It is all about personal choice. Monks are expected to share the knowledge, which they gain in meditation or dhamma study, but not really to preach.

Edited April 8, 2008 by garro

[CuriousGeorge77]

Yes, it is a precept. Buddhism does not proscribe so much as suggest.

Banning drugs outright does not eliminate their existance, nor does it reduce their appeal. For some people, it greatly enhances it's appeal.

Additionally, it is not a clear line. Most foods you eat are psychoactive, even if only in small ways. Tryptophan is a precursor to seratonin. Generally speaking, the more tryptophan you eat, the more seratonin is in your brain, the less depressed/anxious you are (Note: protien blocks the uptake of tryptophan by the brain, carbohydrates promote it.) Caffienated tea is a part of many Buddhist rituals. The point here is you cannot make strong stances here wuithout opening yourself up to hypocrisy, and thus disillussionment.

Additionally, Buddhism does not seek to quiet other points of view, and specifically allows them to co-exist, believing that once you've had a look around that you will see that Buddhism says some pretty cool stuff.

[donna]

i went to an ordination of about 7 young boys in lamphun province a few years back. there were people sitting in the temple for 3 days drinking solid. even on the steps of the main building in the early morning. men were completely passed out and had to be carried in to the kuti's to sleep it off. women were also drunk and sometimes disorderly. it was all done in full view of monks, the abbot, kids and oldies. nobody seemed to bat an eyelid.

[Brucenkhamen]

If Thailand is tempered by their dominant religion then presumably other countries are tempered by their particular dominant religion too? If that's the case name me one country the majority of whose population adhere to the precepts of their religion in the same way you appear to expect the Thais to. If you can't please explain why Thailand should be any different. Why is Thailand expected to adhere to a higher moral standard than other countries?

You're right. Just as the vast majority of people in the Christian West are either non Christian or nominal Christian the vast majority of people in Thailand are nominal Buddhist. They may show respect to the monks and undertake some rites and rituals but that's as far as it goes.

Also remember that in Thailand village Wat's are just as much community centres as they are places of religion. Just as in the West some churches might hire out their facilities to clubs and sports groups Thai village Wats are a place where the community can gather to do community stuff. If in your town that happens to be binge drinking then that's what's going to happen.

[garro]

i went to an ordination of about 7 young boys in lamphun province a few years back. there were people sitting in the temple for 3 days drinking solid. even on the steps of the main building in the early morning. men were completely passed out and had to be carried in to the kuti's to sleep it off. women were also drunk and sometimes disorderly. it was all done in full view of monks, the abbot, kids and oldies. nobody seemed to bat an eyelid.

I am not quite sure what the monks can do about how other people perform at the temple. They can't really ban people as they don't own the temples. Nor would they want to. A wat is only as special as the monks or lay people who practice there. There is nothing particularly sacred about a temple and you can't really desecrate it. At least that is my view.

I regularly visit temples and haven't noticed them full of drunks. I just moved from a village, where I lived for over four years, and didn't see people going there to get drunk. Before that I spent time in city temples and didn't see it there either. If I did see drunks at a temple I wouldn't be that shocked and wouldn't see it as any reflection at the temple. I suppose it is a good thing that people don't feel the need to hide their faults from the temple. It is less hyporitical. I grew up where many people would get all dressed up nice on a Sunday morning for mass but spend the rest of the day drunk.

[sabaijai]

There are plenty of wats around Thailand - especially central Thailand - that sponsor temple events where alcohol is sold and consumed on festival days. Some may even allow laypeople to drink inside the monastery on non-festival days, although this is much less common.

On the other hand many wats around the country forbid the consumption of alcohol on monastery grounds at all times, whether during festivals or not.

Usually it's at the discretion of the abbot, practically speaking (similar to cigarette smoking, which is technically illegal in wats).

[CuriousGeorge77]

They do the same thing with katooeys.... it is not exactly a good thing to be a ladyboy, however, what would they do? "Putting up with" or "tolerating" would be un-Buddhist approaches ... they just are who they are, and Buddhists let them do what they would do. Its not up to them to make them do anything.

I suppose it is a good thing that people don't feel the need to hide their faults from the temple.

yes - I completely agree here. Right speech is all about being honest to the real situation. You can't make good decisions with bad information...

[donna]

i agree with most of you above. after all, isnt buddhism all about not judging people and forgiveness?

the ceremony that i attended was great fun to be honest. i thought it quite wrong in the beginning, when i saw all these people partying at the temple, but who i am i to judge? a temple shouldnt be a solemn area, and in my opinion it should be full of celebration of life. these people were doing just that.

i dont think that there was any disrespect towards the religion going on. just a few people who didnt know their limitations! the 8 year old nephew of my friend had a brand new black t-shirt on saying 'F*&% OFF WAN*&RS' on the front of it. i asked my friend if the childs family knew what it said, and whilst Noi, my friend, understood perfectly and had a good cackle with me about it, he said to me 'for gods sake donna, dont say anything. its a brand new t-shirt and they dont understand what it says'.

so there you go.

[Slither]

Additionally, it is not a clear line. Most foods you eat are psychoactive, even if only in small ways. Tryptophan is a precursor to seratonin. Generally speaking, the more tryptophan you eat, the more seratonin is in your brain, the less depressed/anxious you are (Note: protien blocks the uptake of tryptophan by the brain, carbohydrates promote it.) Caffienated tea is a part of many Buddhist rituals. The point here is you cannot make strong stances here wuithout opening yourself up to hypocrisy, and thus disillussionment.

Additionally, Buddhism does not seek to quiet other points of view, and specifically allows them to co-exist, believing that once you've had a look around that you will see that Buddhism says some pretty cool stuff.

Don't take substances which dull or intoxicate the mind.

Do tryptophan or seratonin do this by reducing depressed/anxious moods, does tea cloud your mind in some way? I don't think so. Or you could argue that anything you eat, drink or smoke alters your body-chemistry and inhibits concentration.

But the bottom line is a cup of tea is not comparable to hard liquor or an LSD tab.

Smoking is borderline, but it is harmful and an attachment anyway, thus to be discouraged.

[CuriousGeorge77]

Or you could argue that anything you eat, drink or smoke alters your body-chemistry and inhibits concentration.

But the bottom line is a cup of tea is not comparable to hard liquor or an LSD tab.

Smoking is borderline, but it is harmful and an attachment anyway, thus to be discouraged.

Yes, you can. (and I am ) The point I'm making is that there is a very blurry line here, and any way to define it via something's effects changes constantly, depending on the particular state of a particular person at any particular moment. Biochemistry changes and the effects of one drug vs another change from person to person. Smoking initiates part of your "fight or flight" system and certianly does affect perception. Not as much as, say, drinking a fifth of SongSam, but the afect is there still, and its not exactly 'small'

It is entirely concievable that marijuana, for some people, brings them closer to the 'center' (which is the end goal in terms of psychiatric disorders (a.k.a "imbalances") There are certainly those that argue that, (although most of them are probnably wrong, IMHO)

Again, my point is that you can't make blanket statements or "thou shalt not"s about this without qualifying what you say.

[Brucenkhamen]

Again, my point is that you can't make blanket statements or "thou shalt not"s about this without qualifying what you say.

You're right, it's up to each individual to observe the affect it has on them and decide whether it's or not it's destructive to following the Buddhas path. Then if they decide to take the drug in question in the privacy of their own home or somewhere set aside for it (like a bar) they take the consequences of that decision, whether good, bad, or neutral.

However, that doesn't mean it's acceptable in a public place set aside for religious purposes.

[hp8000]

I've not read any of this thread's post but about what i know, buddhism in Thailand is the biggest masquerade I've ever seen in my life.

Another excuse to drink huge amount of whisky and behave like a moron. Buddhism in Thailand is a JOKE, nothing else.

My wife and I never make any cash donations to the temples but we buy blankets or any other useful things people there could need. Cash never more.

And much better, we buy food for an orphan institute not far from home, and seeing children rush on a good dinner and being happy is much more rewarding than feeding these so called lazy monks in the temple.

Edited April 14, 2008 by hp8000

[garro]

I've not read any of this thread's post but about what i know, buddhism in Thailand is the biggest masquerade I've ever seen in my life.

Another excuse to drink huge amount of whisky and behave like a moron. Buddhism in Thailand is a JOKE, nothing else.

My wife and I never make any cash donations to the temples but we buy blankets or any other useful things people there could need. Cash never more.

And much better, we buy food for an orphan institute not far from home, and seeing children rush on a good dinner and being happy is much more rewarding than feeding these so called lazy monks in the temple.

The fact that you would comment on a thread despite not reading any of the posts says a lot about you. It seems very likely to me that you have used the same approach to Buddhism.

[Virin]

I've not read any of this thread's post but about what i know, buddhism in Thailand is the biggest masquerade I've ever seen in my life.

Another excuse to drink huge amount of whisky and behave like a moron. Buddhism in Thailand is a JOKE, nothing else.

My wife and I never make any cash donations to the temples but we buy blankets or any other useful things people there could need. Cash never more.

And much better, we buy food for an orphan institute not far from home, and seeing children rush on a good dinner and being happy is much more rewarding than feeding these so called lazy monks in the temple.

The fact that you would comment on a thread despite not reading any of the posts says a lot about you. It seems very likely to me that you have used the same approach to Buddhism.

garro, agreed with your comment.

hp8000... speechless!!!!!

[sabaijai]

I've not read any of this thread's post but about what i know, buddhism in Thailand is the biggest masquerade I've ever seen in my life.

Another excuse to drink huge amount of whisky and behave like a moron. Buddhism in Thailand is a JOKE, nothing else.

My wife and I never make any cash donations to the temples but we buy blankets or any other useful things people there could need. Cash never more.

And much better, we buy food for an orphan institute not far from home, and seeing children rush on a good dinner and being happy is much more rewarding than feeding these so called lazy monks in the temple.

We're leaving this post intact to serve as an example of how NOT to post on the Buddhism subforum. Newbies, please read the guidelines for posting in the Buddhism subforum before posting here. We also suggest reading an entire thread before taking up space here

[AYJAYDEE]

I've not read any of this thread's post but about what i know, buddhism in Thailand is the biggest masquerade I've ever seen in my life.

Another excuse to drink huge amount of whisky and behave like a moron. Buddhism in Thailand is a JOKE, nothing else.

My wife and I never make any cash donations to the temples but we buy blankets or any other useful things people there could need. Cash never more.

And much better, we buy food for an orphan institute not far from home, and seeing children rush on a good dinner and being happy is much more rewarding than feeding these so called lazy monks in the temple.

The fact that you would comment on a thread despite not reading any of the posts says a lot about you. It seems very likely to me that you have used the same approach to Buddhism.

i sure like your comments.

[AYJAYDEE]

I've been to many wat events where there are too many drunks and even people drinking inside wats. Whiskey vendors surrounding wats, making me wonder if the Monks encourage drinking.

What is the deal on this?? You can see the dammage to thai families, culture, not to mention the safety factor when they weave home on their motorcycles after a late night's drunk at the local wat.

Could someone please explain how a peaceful religion can condone alcoholism??

no one at the wat is condoning alcoholism. BUT the monks are not responsible for the actions of others. if someone wants to hinder their own progress with unskillful behaviour, why should that be someone elses business?

[Brucenkhamen]

no one at the wat is condoning alcoholism. BUT the monks are not responsible for the actions of others. if someone wants to hinder their own progress with unskillful behaviour, why should that be someone elses business?

If my children are present, a lot of people take their children to the Wat, and as children do they want to copy what they see then it becomes my business.

What they do in a bar or their own home is of course not my business.