Hiring It Professionals In Bangkok

[eggshen]

Hi.

We're looking at starting an IT company in Bangkok, doing mainly off-shoring work for companies in Europe via a parent company in the U.K (owning 49% of the Thai operation).

The bulk of the costs are going to be salaries, and there is no intention to make profits (or other surpluses) locally. The Thai company simply invoices the U.K one the base operational costs and keeps the books at plus-minus zero.

Most of the rules and regulations governing the setup of a company seem acceptable, albeit clearly a hassle at times. There are solid ways to protect the parent company against the fact that it does not hold majority ownership, etc.

What is still a bit of an unknown though is whether we will be able to locate and hire right people, with the desired set of IT skills and English ability, and at the "right" salary levels.

I would very much appreciate some advice in this endeavor, namely;

1. We are seeking candidates who have 3-6 years of Java and PHP experience, holding a relevant WP (most likely Thai nationals), and have either studied or worked abroad. Will we be able to find them ?

2. How well can we expect them to communicate in English ? Are there any cultural barriers that make communication more difficult ?

3. What motivates / drives a Thai IT professional ?

4. Will we be able to find foreign national with the correct permits and desired experience ? We will NOT be issuing WPs ourselves (The director will be a foreign national requiring 2,000,000 THB r.c + 4 Thais).

5. What salary levels are we looking at ? We are hoping to hire the correct candidates at 30,000 - 40,000 THB monthly.

Thank you all. TV is a great forum.

[singa-traz]

I would very much appreciate some advice in this endeavor, namely;

1. We are seeking candidates who have 3-6 years of Java and PHP experience, holding a relevant WP (most likely Thai nationals), and have either studied or worked abroad. Will we be able to find them ?

Yes, but Thai don't need WP.

2. How well can we expect them to communicate in English ? Are there any cultural barriers that make communication more difficult ?

Welcome to Thailand.

3. What motivates / drives a Thai IT professional ?

End of year bonus ...

4. Will we be able to find foreign national with the correct permits and desired experience ? We will NOT be issuing WPs ourselves (The director will be a foreign national requiring 2,000,000 THB r.c + 4 Thais).

Possible, but will cost you.

5. What salary levels are we looking at ? We are hoping to hire the correct candidates at 30,000 - 40,000 THB monthly.

For the 3-4 years php experience ... that's on the high side of the scale.

[Fun2Fun]

Some it salary stats from ZDNet Asia

Country average: THB 994,203 (US$27,044).

Years of experience matter, too. Thai IT professionals with more experience command salary premiums. The average annual salary of respondents with more than 10 years' experience is THB 1,571,384 (US$19,879), 58 percent higher than the overall country average.

The average annual salary for respondents with less than five years' work experience is THB 351,186 (US$9,553) compared with the average of THB 797,811 (US$21,702) for those with between five and 10 years' experience.

Edited April 9, 2008 by Fun2Fun

[Prakanong]

Interesting concept - the business model seems to be about allowing the UK guy to live and work in Thailand and not anything else to me.

Why else consider Thailand when more available skilled workers with excellent English skills can be found in the Philippines or India?

I say go for it but please keep us updated - BTW you are not the first or last to think of this or try - I have not heard much from previous purveyors but I am all ears.

[eggshen]

Thanks for all input, will take all of this on board.

singa-traz:

I get what you mean by your answer to Question 2 , but for the sake of me learning something new, could you please elaborate a bit ?

Prakanong:

The business idea is tried and old, and obviously the profits will be made elsewhere in the world.

Also, the director appointed would be I.

The Philippines are nice, I've spent about 3 months in the Laguna area on Luzon, but I personally do not fancy the language or culture. I am, however, studying both Japanese and Thai, so Thailand would be an ideal place to work AND have fun in (as per the "work hard, play hard principle").

I wouldn't even consider India. It's actually getting very expensive in the places that have good infra-structure. And gosh, I'm completely uncompatible with their culture. Nah, Thailand rocks (especially Chiangmai) - I think we all agree to that.

I will be moving to Bangkok at the end of the month to study Thai in any case. But if enough things point in the right direction, starting this kind of company would be very interesting - we have already done so successfully here in Kuala Lumpur.

Btw. Indians are overrated IMHO, I've have had much better luck with the Chinese.

Could someone give an opinion / personal assessment on the actual level of IT skills, relative to years of experience, of Thais in general ? How do they compare to Scandinavians, Americans, etc ?

[Prakanong]

As I said the business model is based around the director ie you to live in thailand (play more likely but that is your choice - been there done that as in working in Thailand to play ).

While there and afterwards I saw a few trying to offer these services back to the UK with Thai IT help and failing - there were some Euro's succeeding if I remember correctly.

Problems with language in the PI - that must be why Indian and other companies are locating there for the English language skills?

Indians overrated - have you been talking to the right guy's? - the guy's we use at WIPRI in Bangalore are shot hot as are the TCS guy's I am on my MBA with but then again these are on salaries much higher than any Thai I know in IT as it is a meritocracy.

Good luck finding the Thai IT workers - we have some good ones but they seem to like the security and benefits of a big company and I know we pay more than the norm - not in IT but we pay 100 K for girls with 4 ywears of clinical research experience - we start them on 40k ++ straight out of Uni

Others might argue about the starting salary and pay but I reckon to get the English language skills, cultural fit (ie they have studied abroad and know what we farang. ang moh, gaijin, barang, buleh, gwailo expect and how strange we are) and the level of qual's required you have to pay that today - the search for talent is key to any company right now.

I have no experience at all with mainland Chinese IT guy's - any info for me there as I am genuinely interested.

[steveromagnino]

As I said the business model is based around the director ie you to live in thailand (play more likely but that is your choice - been there done that as in working in Thailand to play ).

While there and afterwards I saw a few trying to offer these services back to the UK with Thai IT help and failing - there were some Euro's succeeding if I remember correctly.

I can think of a few IT type companies run by foreigners doing well here.

But the key problem is shortage of locals and especially, shortage of decent locals willing to work for tiny companies. Most of the successful IT companies that I know of all came in with plenty of capital and connections including a decent local partner that was probably most important to drive recruitment.

They can earn the sort of money you are suggesting (if they are good) either setting up themselves or working for a bigger multinational; with the various IT parks and initiatives, plus direct investment from people like Sun, the numbers of staff available are still just not anywhere near the size of India where it seems like almost everyone wants to be some sort of IT or math nerd of sorts plus there are a ton more people in the first place.

With a foreign degree, 2 years work experience in JAVA, a Thai can work here for a big company with security, money and connections for the future to earn more and more cash. You should be aware you offer none of those things....well maybe money.

For virtually anything except a call centre, I would consider the Philipines to be pretty average; but then again you can make money anywhere in the world doing just about anything (there is a New Zealand company that sold out for millions building PCs and another than sold out for millions making vodka - about the worst country in the world to do either other than true basket cases, but there you have it).

Think carefully about your plan, in the meantime check out jobsdb or similar, and you'll get an idea of what wages are. Outsourcing and programing, the major risk is that most of the people you hire if they are good in english can end up going and doing the work directly, that was the experience I saw in the mobile phone programing arena when I had a client doing something lame in that area.

[freitag1]

most Thais with a bit of skill in web design are working as freelancers. this is great for their lifestyle (no fixed times!) and they can make more than by working for most companies (50.000++). well i do know some people who are good in flash and work for companies but make 50.000 or more a month. flash actionscript can get complex at times but if you look for someone who can write php oop with classes and stuff you probably will pay more than that.

there are some cheaper programmers here who can do the basic stuff though but don't expect them to do much problem solving themselves and make sure you have much patience and time to supervise them.

the funny thing is that people have to keep in mind webdesign in Thailand is more expensive than for example in the states or other western countries because the few skilled people here have only few competitors.

some "seo services" here also have rape charges and promise to do the seo work for their clients. if you want to know whats wrong with that is that if you are serious about seo you will not outsource it because it is too important in the long run and it makes no sense to pay a lot for some people to submit your site to all sorts of directories for a link or write unqualified articles they distribute for you (or via one of the distribution services that would do that for you)

exactly these services can be purchased for 10$/hour or 0.1 cent per word (for articles) from Indian companies.

anyway

[seobangkok]

I do exactly the same thing as what your looking to do. I live here by choice, invoice a company in the UK on a monthly basis for work.

I wonder how much experience steveroma and friet have with running an IT business with Thai staff in Thailand as I disagree with some of their comments.

There is not a shortage of excellent Thai IT professionals in Bangkok... If you treat your staff well, and with respect, your staff will help you recruit new staff. From my experience, Thai's are also not that bothered working for a huge company - it's all down to the working environment and their fellow peers - those 2 factors are the most important things, even above money, from my own experience. Also don't be fooled that most good Thai programmers are freelancers - it takes a particular kind of person to be able to work as a freelancer - i.e - have a business sense as well as being good at coding - they are around, but not as many as you think.

I consider my success with Thai staff down to treating my staff well - I take them out to the cities best restaurants, I buy them fruit smoothies every day, I have a fridge stocked up with goodies that they can help themselves to, I give each staff 2 monitors, a nice desk and chair. I pay for their travel expenses. By treating them well, they spread the word and soon enough your a desired company to work for, either if you have 5 staff or 100 staff.

Maybe I've just been lucky?

As for your questions (that haven't already been answered above):

2. How well can we expect them to communicate in English ? Are there any cultural barriers that make communication more difficult ?

This is the down side - I speak okay Thai but I do have someone in the office who translates my specs just to make double sure they understand what is required.

5. What salary levels are we looking at ? We are hoping to hire the correct candidates at 30,000 - 40,000 THB monthly.

My programmers all start on a 3 month probation at 18k, after 3 months when both parties are happy to continue the contract, I increase the salary to 22k, with double pay over time opportunities everyday (2 hours) and paid travel expenses, it works out at around 25k to 27k

Good luck - If you have any Q's, just let me know here or via PM.

[eggshen]

freitag1:

Duly noted. The salary spread does seem to be quite substantial.

We will be focusing on primarily backend programming, or more specifically, Flash Game Server development via SmartFox Server (Java) or a simpler request-response based solution using AMFPHP.

The parent company has a reputable team of graphics artists and flash game developers, who we are to provide with various backend solutions.

seobangkok:

Spot on. This is what I was hoping to hear.

Personally, I'm convinced your strategy is the right way to go.

We strive to offer the right candidates a number of things:

An opportunity to work with a highly skilled, and well praised, team of graphics artists. The parent company has an impressive portfolio which has proven to be very attractive to Malaysian professionals in the relevant fields. Admittedly, it's one of the key selling points / attractors of the intended company.

Full in-house training. I am a systems architect in both Java and PHP, and I have been training Malaysians here for about a year now with surprising success.

For instance, simple pair-programming methods such as me coding live, while explaining what's going on, and having them watch it on a projector and ask questions, has worked brilliantly.

This again shows that the proper expose to the right blend of technologies and techniques is the only thing needed to propel most ambitious juniors to new heights, bringing them up to above-average Scandinavian IT standards.

Semi-competitive salaries, but definitely no la-la land wages here. The focus is instead on personal growth, a fun working environment (Scandinavian style. And yes we CAN be fun ), a well defined salary "ramp" based on performance, and a lot of small perks, i.e. the kind that do not cost the company much yet are highly appreciated by the employees. The idea of fancy dinner outings and nice computer rigs is right on the money.

Wish you the best mate.

Thank you all for the input.

[gregb]

5. What salary levels are we looking at ? We are hoping to hire the correct candidates at 30,000 - 40,000 THB monthly.

3-4 years of Java experience? 60k if they are any good. Less than that and there is most likely a reason. PHP is cheaper, as there are many more candidates, but I don't think you'll find anyone who is worth anything for less than 40k. Salaries have gone up substantially in the last 2 years. Lots of competition for the few skilled people.

We only hire the top tier people. They have to pass a test that I made up during the interview, and it is challenging by Thai standards. Not just regurgitating information. It requires them to think and show initiative. Not everyone has that skill.

If you're really trying to get the low end of the scale, you might consider new graduates (even they are asking 20k now though.) My experience has shown that for every 12 you hire, you will find 1 that you actually want to keep.

I would say your best bet is to rethink your business plan and relocate to India. Much better skilled workforce there, and salaries are about the same or slightly lower.

I'm not sure where seo gets his figures, but we've got an office full of 200 IT people and the numbers don't even come close to what he is saying. Anyone who can get those numbers is very, very lucky.

As seo says though, sometimes Thais are driven more by environment than by salary, so if you can create a really good environment with the right people, perhaps it is possible. Don't bet the farm on it though.

I would say your plans are on the extreme edge of being viable. I would add in a very large contingency here.

Good luck in your endeavor whatever you decide.

[quiksilva]

You might want to start looking at Software Park they have an HR club, and its one of the places where leading Thai firms such as Central Retail Corp source their IT staff.

[Martin_F]

Hello Eggshen:

Your idea sounds good.

There is one main tax issue that you need to address and that a Thai company should not be established as a non-profit making entity. It needs to make a commercial profit on work invoiced, especially if the work is all for a related company.

Therefore you need to address this issue with your corporate advisers.

Good luck.

[eggshen]

3-4 years of Java experience? 60k if they are any good. Less than that and there is most likely a reason. PHP is cheaper, as there are many more candidates, but I don't think you'll find anyone who is worth anything for less than 40k. Salaries have gone up substantially in the last 2 years. Lots of competition for the few skilled people.

We only hire the top tier people. They have to pass a test that I made up during the interview, and it is challenging by Thai standards. Not just regurgitating information. It requires them to think and show initiative. Not everyone has that skill.

..

I would say your best bet is to rethink your business plan and relocate to India. Much better skilled workforce there, and salaries are about the same or slightly lower.

I'm not sure where seo gets his figures, but we've got an office full of 200 IT people and the numbers don't even come close to what he is saying. Anyone who can get those numbers is very, very lucky.

As seo says though, sometimes Thais are driven more by environment than by salary, so if you can create a really good environment with the right people, perhaps it is possible. Don't bet the farm on it though.

Thank you for the feedback Gregb. I will adjust the budget for the 50-60k salary levels you've suggested. This is not far off our previous estimates and will not be a problem.

We are not looking to hire a large amount of people, but it's vital we get top tier candidates.

How well do the Thais fare in your test in general, as compared to, say, Europeans ? Are they able to comprehend the questions, and fully grasp the given problem ?

My experiences with screening candidates in Kuala Lumpur have been a bit of hit or miss unfortunately. Malaysians are definitely not as theoretical, on average, as similarly experienced candidates from the US or UK.

As for India, it is not an option. The big incentive for us is to enter the Thai market, as we love their culture and believe it (yet to be determined obviously) to be highly compatible with our existing products, which we intend to localize. That is our long-term goal.

You might want to start looking at Software Park they have an HR club, and its one of the places where leading Thai firms such as Central Retail Corp source their IT staff.

Noted. Will contact them. Thank you.

Hello Eggshen:

Your idea sounds good.

There is one main tax issue that you need to address and that a Thai company should not be established as a non-profit making entity. It needs to make a commercial profit on work invoiced, especially if the work is all for a related company.

Therefore you need to address this issue with your corporate advisers.

Thank you for the heads-up. I will definitely bring this up with our legal firm.

By the way, we are planning to use the Indo-Siam Group (thaistartup.com) for this. Mr Steve Sykes over there has been most helpful and seems to really know his stuff.

Greatly appreciate all the input.

[PomPui]

Just wondered if you ever set up your company and how things were going?

Cheers

PomPui

[girlx]

Btw. Indians are overrated IMHO, I've have had much better luck with the Chinese.

having worked with developers of both nationalities, i definitely agree. indians are probably cheaper though.

[BlackRain]

maybe a bit late to answer that topic but I can add my 2c since I am in the industry,

1. Hiring IT professionals is extremely difficult here, costly and often not effective. It's art or you have to be very lucky.

2. The level of English is very poor, even with Thais HiSo, however their writing skills is much better, maybe ok. Cultural barrier is pretty big. A lot of farang boss go mad running a business here.

Basically running a business in Thailand will take a lot of patience and skills from the farang manager, you will either adapt or break