Self Sufficiency On 7 Rai?

[jaideeguy]

I presently own a nice house with swimming pool and small garden on a half rai of sub division land and it is a high maintenance monster with no returns on investment...simply put it's a $drain to maintain. Paid 4 mil baht and invested 5 yrs of sweat and [hoping] that i could at least recover my baht investment of 4mil.

Now, I have the opportunity to purchase 7 rai of nearby rice land [with water] for 1,000,000baht with the intention of making it self sufficient for my [extended] family with intensive and diversified farming. Plan is to dig a 1 rai pond and use the 'diggings' to fill the rest of the land. The rest of the land would be used to grow various farming products, fruit trees, ornamental landscape trees, vegetables, fish farming in the pond, possibly a rai of rice and anything else to make a few baht and set my family up with some 'security' in these troubled times. I have no life insurance and they would piss away any lump sum anyway when i go to the "ATM in the sky".

I estimate a 1 rai pond could be dug for under 500kbaht and another 500kbaht for developing land, buying fruit and ornamental trees and that would leave me 2mil baht for building simple housing for my immediate family and some for extended family. Moma and Popa are in their 60's and still live in a shack that I have improved somewhat, but it is a sinking ship and they are getting older and i do realize some obligation to help them and they are farmers themselves and I can help them help themselves.

The wife has a degree in agriculture and knows and loves plants and farming and I'm on old 'back to the land' hippy with a bit of practical experience. I have no illusions of getting rich, but simply want to offset the expenses of survival and maybe have a little left over to pay electric and buy an occasional beer.

this new attitude has come about as a result of my shrinking $'s and the realization that the [world?] economy may be in for tough times ahead and would at least want to have food on the table and help the [extended] family survive.

Other posts running are suggesting 100+ rai to farm for self sufficiency/income [?], but that would take lots more manpower and inputs$ and headaches and I just want a simple, secure life and legacy to leave my family.

Can do on 7 rai?? and is 1milbaht enough to develop 7rai of raw rice land near Chiang Mai??

any suggestions, comments or feedback appreciated.............

[dave_boo]

There's a lot more knowledgeable farming members on this board than I, but there was a bit of shock when I read a price of 1 000 000 Bhat for 7 rai. I realise it is rice land, but that's extremely high--the price per Rai in Nakhon Sawn is in the 14 000 Bhat range(approximately 1/10 of your asking price). Perhaps they're playing 'screw the falang'?

[Zeid]

the pond is also quite expensive we kept the soil and paid 50,000 for one that is almost 1 rai and isaround 3 meters deep

[jaideeguy]

The going rate for rice land in the Chiang Mai area is 100k-150kbhatt/rai....have been here and do occasionally hear of distress bargains, but the above is the going rate here.

and good to hear that digging the pond will be much lower...where is your pond, zied??

[allcladrad]

I just dug a pond and your price seems really high, near 400k high. Expecting to cover 6 rai with dirt dug from a 1 rai pond might be a little opitmistic. My pond was 2 rai and we wound up with about 1 meter of dirt on almost 2 rai. Macro was 1600 baht an hour.

The other problem I see is that you will be covering the top soil.

If you are ok spending a million baht for the project then have the track hoe (macro), pile up the top soil first, then use the pond diggings to cover, then spread the top soil.

Based on my experience your land price is good.

Sufficient on 7 rai might be a little difficult. You will be able to reduce your overhead some by growing some of what you eat.

[Loom]

We just did something similar to what you're looking to do : ponds and elevating the rest of the land. Ponds went down 2.5 - 3 meters and the dirt was used to elevate low lying areas.

I would second what allcradad has said about stripping the topsoil and respreading. You may have to explain yourself and negotiate several times before the construction crew understand this concept.

Our cost worked out to 80 baht per square meter of excavated area. We had a topographic layout plan and a grading plan done before doing anything. The plans ran Bt15,000 each.

I don't remember the exact the price for fill dirt from outside. 5 cubic meters might be in the range of Bt500 plus in Chiang mai.

[Zeid]

The going rate for rice land in the Chiang Mai area is 100k-150kbhatt/rai....have been here and do occasionally hear of distress bargains, but the above is the going rate here.

and good to hear that digging the pond will be much lower...where is your pond, zied??

Nong bua lamphu

[ozzydom]

jaideeguy, It all depends on whether you want a "Nimbin " type lifestyle or something more up market.

With 7 rai and a bit of work you would never go hungry,all you need is a few chooks ,ducks free ranging, the pond will only give you about 1000 fish per year without feeding (Pla Nin) so an extended family would consume that many.

If you grow one crop of wet season rice on most of it ,the profit should pay the electric bill for the year.

A veggie garden for your own use and a summer crop of maybe corn might buy you a few cans.

Your ongoing overheads play a big part,its not hard to spend 20k per month on those little things that seem insignificant but added together can break the camels back.

It only takes a trip to the doctor or dentist by yourself or one of the family to throw a well planned budget out of whack.

[jaideeguy]

I do have additional income/savings to cover emergencies and there always are some surprises.

As far as lifestyle, I don't want to live like a poor thai farmer, but nor do I want to live like a rich falang..just somewhere n the middle and want to always have food on the table and a little extra to sell/trade, if the shit hits the fan with the economy/dollar...then I want to be set up so we can weather it.

And It seems like the best security to leave my family....a self suffecient farm.

[Beardog]

7 Rai is dealing a bit short I think. I have 4 &1/2 & after doing the math it is a bust. I think 40 rai was the number needed to make something on many other similar posts. You might be able to keep yourself in food & make a tad bit. We work like hel_l on our Rai- But enjoy not having to spend hardly anything on veggies & some fruit. Fish might be a moneymaker, but if something goes awry & you lose your stash of fish-it is going to hurt. My girls family harvests Tub Tim & Banyim fish & lost 80,000 baht 2 years ago. Don't get in any deeper than you can afford.

You should get a bunch of help with your post.

I am not being negative at all(even though it sounds like it) Just realistic -as I was going to get deep in myself & perhaps buy 7 more rai. That was until I found out about the possible loss factor.

the upside is in a couple years we will have a complete nursery..............Along with several other 100 people or more in Bang Sare .

Good luck on your endeavorer ! However you decide!

Barry

Oh yea I have to throw this line in:

The Thai's consider me to be a poor farang farmer LOL cause they do not get to see many foreigners in this area ever work & I do bust a good sweat!!!! But it feels good -I love creating & seeing things come to life from nit naui.

Edited May 13, 2008 by Beardog

[dingdongrb]

Even though I am living in Chiang Mai I have no idea how much land goes for, especially farming land. However the wife and I bought about 7 rai in her home providence, Surin, where we plan to retire, build a house, and try to live off the land as much as possible. We only paid about 150,000 baht for the 7 rai a little more than five years ago. Grant you I don't think the soil in Surin is as fertile as the land here in Chiang Mai but it is indeed the rice country of Thailand.

I bought 2 cows (one pregnant) for 10,000 bought. My wife's brother is currently looking after the cows and we have given him the newborn calf last year for his little involved cattle sitting.

My father-in-law is currently using our 7 rai to grow bananas, raise a few pigs, a large hoard of ducks & chickens, and now has had a pond in the back dug out. I would esitimate the pond to be a little larger than a 1/2 rai and about 3-4 meters deep. It cost him 10,000 baht to have it dug. Of course I do believe that most labor in Surin is cheaper than here in CM as everything else seems to be cheaper.

Good luck on you journey and please do keep us updated as I plan eventually trying the same in about 4-5 years when I finally leave the ye ole 'rat race'....

[lannarebirth]

The price for the land seems pretty reasonable for the CM area, and i would think it may even be pretty far out, near Doi Saket or Lamphun to get that price. I think you can dig your pond for much less than you imagine, but I wouldn't expect the earth you take from it to raise your remaining 6 rai by very much. Fresh food from your own land. What could be better?

[Beardog]

Ciaphas just posted this on another farm post . The costs of a 40 rai farm & feasability. It appears a 100 rai farm or more would bring in returns.

Hi Micky,

I think you've got your sums wrong there 100 rai at 10,000 per rai would be around £16,000. I also think your estimate for land is well of the mark. In the area where I live the cheapest land is around 25k per rai and that is very difficult to come by, we've had a couple of offers recently to buy land and they were all asking 35k per rai.

Going on you wanting 40 rai I would think the start up costs would be more like this

Land 40 x 35,000 1,400,000

Start up 1,000,000

(tractor, equipment, fertiliser, irrigation, staff, crops)

Basic house (I'll assume you don't have one) 1,000,000

Total 3,400,000

Which would roughly work out at £50,000 in a account with 7% interest per annum would work out at £3,500 (which is probably more money than you would make from a farm of 40 rai).

But having said all that my wife runs a farm of 35 rai on which she grows various crops and now a few ducks. It doesn't make a lot of money but enough for her to live off. Without my money we would not be able to go on holidays or buy the nice things in life. I really enjoy the farm and am happy that we have it, I enjoy helping out each day all though it can be back breaking work and love to eat the food that we grow. Each morning and evening I go for a walk around our land with the dogs which makes me very happy.

I think the other posters gave some good advice about buying land now as it does seem to be going up at an alarming rate these days. What I would recommend if you do want to farm in your retirement is to start with a few rai and see how it goes. As there is nothing better than eating the food you create, it also gives you something to do that will keep you active which is always a good thing.

[allcladrad]

One other thing I think is important and that is to have a plan B. There are a number of things that can go wrong over which one has no control, not counting mother nature. Visas and government regulations to name a couple.

[jaideeguy]

The reason that I came up with 7 rai is that I presently own the only access to this 7 rai piece and can bring in power and phone lines easily. And I'm not really epecting to make a fortune on that small of land...just want to leave the wife and family some 'social security' and do think that some intensive, unique crop can be grown.

Actually, beardog...i notice on your avitor that you are another Hawaii boy, me, I' from the Big Isle and have grown 'quite successfully' our U.H. manoa lettuce in the winter time and have tried several other U.H. and falang seeds that work some and not work some.

I grew dendrobium orchids on Hawaii and made a few bucks under a shade house less than a quarter acre and know that crop well, but would like to avoid all the chems that they take to grow market flowers.

[Loom]

I've looked at land in a variety of places in Thailand. Having the land right next to your house is a big plus. But from a financial perspective, there's lots of land in the boonies that's priced more on the basis of a return on what the land can produce. If you planned to rent this type of land out, the yield would be somewhere in the ballpark of bank deposit rates. Unless you've got family to look after it or collect rent you're probably better off with the piece next to your home. But even with higher ag product prices in recent months, the actual return on investment is likely to be very small for the price you're talking about. Most of the land I've seen surrounding Chiang mai is already priced for a higher use than farming. Orchids might be a different story, though.

Edited May 14, 2008 by Loom

[Gary A]

I think that it is certainly possible, BUT, it all depends on how hard you want to work. I have serious reservations that any farang would work that hard. Growing a variety of vegetables is VERY hard work and if you are not going to do it yourself, forget it. If you are thinking about hiring the help, it is definitely a lost cause. If you don't live on the land and are not there to keep an eye on your crops, it is also a lost cause. I'm not trying to be negative but I know first hand that thieves will steal anything that is not being closely watched.

[Beardog]

The reason that I came up with 7 rai is that I presently own the only access to this 7 rai piece and can bring in power and phone lines easily. And I'm not really epecting to make a fortune on that small of land...just want to leave the wife and family some 'social security' and do think that some intensive, unique crop can be grown.

Actually, beardog...i notice on your avitor that you are another Hawaii boy, me, I' from the Big Isle and have grown 'quite successfully' our U.H. manoa lettuce in the winter time and have tried several other U.H. and falang seeds that work some and not work some.

I grew dendrobium orchids on Hawaii and made a few bucks under a shade house less than a quarter acre and know that crop well, but would like to avoid all the chems that they take to grow market flowers.

I was just dreaming the other night of fishing on my old boat for Alua & Mahi Mahi & Ono!

The Big Island is sweet! You might do pretty good on orchids, they do command a decent price. Plumeria's are way to common. we have several hundred growing(not worth a whole lot-but reminds me of home.)

[Ciaphas]

Beardog,

Those figures I quoted where very much a guestimate as I'm no expert like other members on this forum. I was just trying to illustrate relative cost vs bank interest for the OP on the thread.

It feels good to be quote though

Thanks

C

[Loom]

Exactly--looking at it from an investment perspective, rental income would have to be comparable to bank deposit rates on the investment. If you planned to farm it yourself, the return would have to be in excess of deposit rates. Otherwise you'd be better off financially leaving the money in the bank.

As a quick check, you could ask the person currently growing rice what he would expect to pay for rent.

[Beardog]

Beardog,

Those figures I quoted where very much a guestimate as I'm no expert like other members on this forum. I was just trying to illustrate relative cost vs bank interest for the OP on the thread.

It feels good to be quote though

Thanks

C

I reposted your info as I was really impressed that you gave a dam_n good account of what it costs. I found out I was dreaming that 4 &1/2 rai could be self sufficient. On the other hand I love farming & enjoy having a hand in watching the fruits & vegetables of our labor. thanks for the post!

In Thailand you can do real well here if you keep your ears open & listen to what other people that are involved in the same are saying.

This forum has been a great help & hats off to all that are part of sharing the experience!!!!!!

Edited May 15, 2008 by Beardog

[gwynt]

I think that it is certainly possible, BUT, it all depends on how hard you want to work. I have serious reservations that any farang would work that hard. Growing a variety of vegetables is VERY hard work and if you are not going to do it yourself, forget it. If you are thinking about hiring the help, it is definitely a lost cause. If you don't live on the land and are not there to keep an eye on your crops, it is also a lost cause. I'm not trying to be negative but I know first hand that thieves will steal anything that is not being closely watched.

Having tghe land next to your home is big bonus, 19 rai we have with a pond which was doing quite well for fish untill we decieded to harvest and discovered someone had beaten us to it were lelt with only small fish.

This year investing in a house for brother in law to occupy and keep an eye on the land will be money well spent.

Good luck to the OP he is stealing my plan for a few years down the road.

[Loom]

I just realized my comment was taboo. I'll send jaydeeguy a pm.

Edited May 18, 2008 by Loom

[himachal]

Jai Dee Guy.

Words of wisdom - both cautionary and encouraging - throughout this thread.

I'm a romantic soul and I say "Go for it!" (as my partner and I are starting to do)

At least you'll get to eat some healthy food, breathe fresh air, smell the flowers, etc.

Some rewards can't be priced.

Having said that, think about other things you could do to make a bit of pocket money. (working from home on computer, for example).

If you're coming up to retirement age, I'd suggest you dilly-dally no longer and indulge your dream.

I wish you all the best and hope you have many years to enjoy that dream.

Himachal

PS. 'Macro' is what many Thais call a back hoe. Going rate is around 1400-1600/hr. If you've got a lot of work for them (maybe 2 weeks) it may work out cheaper to negotiate a price for the job. That way they'll be out of your hair sooner and you'll have fewer M150 bottles to pick up!!!!!

[roygsd]

The reason that I came up with 7 rai is that I presently own the only access to this 7 rai piece and can bring in power and phone lines easily. And I'm not really epecting to make a fortune on that small of land...just want to leave the wife and family some 'social security' and do think that some intensive, unique crop can be grown.

Actually, beardog...i notice on your avitor that you are another Hawaii boy, me, I' from the Big Isle and have grown 'quite successfully' our U.H. manoa lettuce in the winter time and have tried several other U.H. and falang seeds that work some and not work some.

I grew dendrobium orchids on Hawaii and made a few bucks under a shade house less than a quarter acre and know that crop well, but would like to avoid all the chems that they take to grow market flowers.

H,

I dont know anything about farming but I do take some interest in property and lad vaues herever I go, 2 very important thing you wrote jumped off the page at me which were:

1. you own the only access to this 7 rai that is for sale.

2.you can bring in power and phone lines in easily.

As you appear to own the only access to it this 7 rai then I suggst you put the breaks on and reconsider the matter very carefully.

Who do you think would be foolish enough to even consider buying much less at a top dollar price land that as no legal access and no power, and if power/services could be installed how much will it cost another person to install them?

In my humble opinion that land isnt going to attact anywhere near the price that you seem to be considering paying for the above reasons.

A fool and his money are soon parted, I know because I have from time to time done foolish things, the simplest way to improve the viability of you proposed development is to go back to the owner and point out that this land isn much use to anyone as it has no access and as a reult services are going to be either impossible or very expensive to provide because I hope you would make it clear that you would not allow access over your land.

" Do you really think that a thai person ( or any person for that matter) would not take full advantage of the situation if they owned what the only access?

This type of land is known as a "Ransom Strip" in the uk for very obvious reasons, like it or not you future and that of your dependants are reliant upon you making a success of this business, make no mistake it is a business and nowhere is it written that a farm must be profitable bfore it becomes a business.

The more you reduce the purchase price the mor your financial future will improve, dont be afraid of bidding too low, they can only say no, let them keep their land locked fields, you dont reallly need them and dont forget that fact.

Business is business as they say, good luck to you in your efforts but dont worry toomuch if this falls out of bed, for the moment you have the cash on your side,and harsh as it may seem money makes the world go round, if you pay more than you need to pay ask yourself is that a business decision or are you trying to make merit with your neigbours?

Merit is all very well but it wont pay the bills if things get tighter in the future.

Good Luck and be fair to yourself no one else will look after you better.

Roy gsd

[jaideeguy]

I did make them a low offer a couple of years ago and they turned it down. Admittedly the land is a little over the market value but the owners will not budge. they held out when our developers were buying up all the surrounding land. Thais are not very realistic when it comes to pricing land and the ONLY reason that I would bite the bullet with this land is CONVENIENCE!!

It's maybe 15% - 20% overpriced

A few years ago, I bought 4+ rai on a river, beautiful setting but 40minutes away and we didn't develope it because it was just too far and I told myself that I wouldn't ever buy land that wasn't within view and/or walking distance. I know myself [finally!].

And IF the shot does hit the fan and inflation continues [it will], then maybe farm land prices will finally go up. In my area of Chiang Mai, rice land prices are the same as they were 10 yrs ago unless a superhiway comes in.

Thanks for your comments....

[dave_boo]

Roy gsd;

Excellent advice.

[Lickey]

Sometimes i wish we had 7rai instead of 40, the bigger the farm, the bigger the costs, some fertilizers have gone up 300bht recently, same with weedkillers and insecticides, labour with kubota tractor want more for fuel ect, for spraying ridching for cassava ect,and petrol powered strimmers.

Last year the farm was supporting Mrs new salon, this year, its the other way round, we ploughed in 4 rai of year old papaya and planted casava, then they got the mealy bug, had to buy insecticide and a motorised packpack to clear this, 5000bht, add the fertilizer and weedkiller and labour for approx total of 15 rai of cassava, what will we make?

Khowans pinned topic on cassava has helped me a lot, and weve had a few phone chats to help me along, all apreciated and knowledge of cassava care is logged in my bonce, This is also my first year growing cassava.

Last/this year, 3 pickings of the 60 Tamarind trees {a special sweet variety] netted us 46,000 bht, the mature banana plants in the last 6 mnths have returned around 5000bht, about 1200 mature plants and 600 more coming on-line soon,

The tamarind trees [17years old] have got a treat this year, a good pruning and some fertilizer, first time ever.

I wish i could condense the Tamarind and Banana into 6/7 rai, I could look after it myself no prob.

Then you have the thai labour, they leave a plastic mess all over the farm, bags hanging in trees, polystrrene food containers every where, dont forget, if they are working on your farm, you have to feed them also, so i installed an old 45 gallon fire drum near the rest area, Mrs told them to put all rubbish in it for burning later, 1 man ignored this, I pointed to his rubbish and the bin, he waved his hands saying no,no, I took his arm and took him to the gate, gave him 20bht for his work and sent him down the road, the others got the message, I WILL NOT TOLERATE RUBBISH OR PLASTIC ITEMS ALL OVER OUR FARM, the village streets are bad enough.

Also, the trusted labour? 3 days ago we caught him putting our cassava fertilzer on his cassava, [full story pinned topics Cassava Khowan} and 5 days ago i bought 20ltrs of paraquat weedkiller, today, some of the weeds were a little yellow, thai labour done 9 rai in 4 hours, really? 2 men? I also bet there farms dont have many weeds now.

In October this year, i wil have been here 2 years, not a long time but its been a steep learning curve for the once rich falang, farming is a cut-throat buisness and i get more attuned to it everyday, but i will keep trying to make some beer money.

Sorry i got a bit carried away and off-topic folks, just had to get it off my chest, thanks for your patience...

Cheers, Lickey.

[MrIrrisistable]

Good to hear stories like that Lickey, keep it up.

[desbo]

I presently own a nice house with swimming pool and small garden on a half rai of sub division land and it is a high maintenance monster with no returns on investment...simply put it's a $drain to maintain. Paid 4 mil baht and invested 5 yrs of sweat and [hoping] that i could at least recover my baht investment of 4mil.

Now, I have the opportunity to purchase 7 rai of nearby rice land [with water] for 1,000,000baht with the intention of making it self sufficient for my [extended] family with intensive and diversified farming. Plan is to dig a 1 rai pond and use the 'diggings' to fill the rest of the land. The rest of the land would be used to grow various farming products, fruit trees, ornamental landscape trees, vegetables, fish farming in the pond, possibly a rai of rice and anything else to make a few baht and set my family up with some 'security' in these troubled times. I have no life insurance and they would piss away any lump sum anyway when i go to the "ATM in the sky".

I estimate a 1 rai pond could be dug for under 500kbaht and another 500kbaht for developing land, buying fruit and ornamental trees and that would leave me 2mil baht for building simple housing for my immediate family and some for extended family. Moma and Popa are in their 60's and still live in a shack that I have improved somewhat, but it is a sinking ship and they are getting older and i do realize some obligation to help them and they are farmers themselves and I can help them help themselves.

The wife has a degree in agriculture and knows and loves plants and farming and I'm on old 'back to the land' hippy with a bit of practical experience. I have no illusions of getting rich, but simply want to offset the expenses of survival and maybe have a little left over to pay electric and buy an occasional beer.

this new attitude has come about as a result of my shrinking $'s and the realization that the [world?] economy may be in for tough times ahead and would at least want to have food on the table and help the [extended] family survive.

Other posts running are suggesting 100+ rai to farm for self sufficiency/income [?], but that would take lots more manpower and inputs$ and headaches and I just want a simple, secure life and legacy to leave my family.

Can do on 7 rai?? and is 1milbaht enough to develop 7rai of raw rice land near Chiang Mai??

any suggestions, comments or feedback appreciated.............

Why don't you consider aquaponics or hydropnics as we here in Australia grow thousand of veges and other plants on small areas of land. There are many crops that can be grown and it's an easy way instead of a back bending way of doing work. I can help you if you would like some info.