Question For Europeans

[girlx]

Hi all-

I am currently talking with an American company about a position based in Amsterdam. That is, I would be working for an American company with Amsterdam as it's European base. I would be building an application which would involve 9 other countries in Europe (including Finland, Sweden, Czech, Poland etc.), and I would have to travel from Amsterdam around to all those countries to work with the clients there. The salary is $90,000 a year plus benefits, plus they pay travel expenses and I think I can even negotiate to get them to pay my accomodation.

Is this a good deal? I have worked freelance so long that I don't know what a good salary is anymore. I am used to living quite comfortably but I am paid hourly so it is up to me how much I make.

$90,000 = 58,082.72 euros = 46,222.22 pounds per year

Do you think that would last long in Europe? I am not all that excited about leaving Asia and can probably make similar money here, but it might be a good opportunity.

Tips on negotiating salary, expenses, and benefits?

[Jandajoy]

Doing what, precisely?

[girlx]

I am an Information Architect (user experience design for websites)

[hanibal7]

sounds about average to me girlx

[girlx]

what do you mean? can i live comfortably in europe on that and even save some cash? assuming i go out on weekends and the occasional weeknight, and maybe a bi-weekly shopping splurge. the dollar is pretty low so i am not sure...

[Jandajoy]

PK no comment then other than to say that I'd be pushiing for maximum expenses, including accommodation, travel etc.

Good luck.

[girlx]

any tips on how to artfully push for those?

[loubrockbank]

hi- i am based in the UK - and to me that sounds good, so i take it you would be visiting Finland, Sweden, Czech, Poland etc?? your flights etc should be ok, as their are many budget airlines going to each.

however i would just have a good look on the net - sure you have already but see what accomodation, general living etc is. for a living I transfer a global companies expats to countries in europe, middle east and africa from many different country combinations - so if you would like general cost of living data just let me now and i can pm you some figures - just let me know the countries (if differant from above) / where you are from originally so i can compare the 2/ and if you are going alone or if not how many dependants will be with you

also ...just thinking of what my expats ask for, maybe mention international healthcare coverage - allthough u menation u will get benefits so maybe this has been discussed already.

good luck

[samran]

don't forget them to pay relocation expenses to get you and all of your belongings there.

Hotel for the first 4 weeks while you find a place, all should be standard...

[Jandajoy]

any tips on how to artfully push for those?

Not really. Thing is that if they're covering you're living expenses, particularly accommodation, the rest is up to you. Sure, you can blow a $1000 a night in clubs, but that's your problem. I always used to recommend to people I recruited that if one third of their income went on accommodation, one third on "living" the third third was up to them.

The big cost for you in Europe will be accommodation. That's the one to get covered. Given that you'll be moving around a fair bit you'll probably be staying in hotels so insist on a standard of hotel. Most flight crews with major airlines insist on at least 4 star. I'sd aim for the same. Afterall it's tax deductable for the company. As are all the expenses you claim.

Good luck

[Morden]

Europe is an expensive place, especially for a single person who likes shopping and night life. City rents, transport and food are all expensive.

I suggest that you ask for your accommodation costs to be paid, including electricity, and a couple of flights home.

European countries have some fancy ideas about taxes too. For example, in Germany you would pay several taxes including one for reunification (remember that?) Europeans just love working for the tax man.

I think that the offer is rather thin if you have to pay your living expenses after taxes. You need at least to get living costs added to the deal. Don't bother being artful, just tell them.

[PCA]

Hi all-

I am currently talking with an American company about a position based in Amsterdam. That is, I would be working for an American company with Amsterdam as it's European base. I would be building an application which would involve 9 other countries in Europe (including Finland, Sweden, Czech, Poland etc.), and I would have to travel from Amsterdam around to all those countries to work with the clients there. The salary is $90,000 a year plus benefits, plus they pay travel expenses and I think I can even negotiate to get them to pay my accomodation.

Is this a good deal? I have worked freelance so long that I don't know what a good salary is anymore. I am used to living quite comfortably but I am paid hourly so it is up to me how much I make.

$90,000 = 58,082.72 euros = 46,222.22 pounds per year

Do you think that would last long in Europe? I am not all that excited about leaving Asia and can probably make similar money here, but it might be a good opportunity.

Tips on negotiating salary, expenses, and benefits?

If you are a good specialist in this field and can make the same money in Asia why even considering it? This sounds like a startup or a project where you will not be needed anymore one day. Netting 60k euro lifts you above the average income level in Europe but considering the efforts behind be it travelling to cold countries like Finland and Sweden or working in Poland and the Czech Republic sounds like a real nightmare to me. Beyond that what about your salary, is this what you are getting paid out and there is some social and health insurance on the top? If you want to regularly participate in the nightlife you gotta spend a lot of your money though I doubt that you will have that much time to live a party life. Ask for double of that salary and still you are not high paid.

[Jandajoy]

Hi all-

I am currently talking with an American company about a position based in Amsterdam. That is, I would be working for an American company with Amsterdam as it's European base. I would be building an application which would involve 9 other countries in Europe (including Finland, Sweden, Czech, Poland etc.), and I would have to travel from Amsterdam around to all those countries to work with the clients there. The salary is $90,000 a year plus benefits, plus they pay travel expenses and I think I can even negotiate to get them to pay my accomodation.

Is this a good deal? I have worked freelance so long that I don't know what a good salary is anymore. I am used to living quite comfortably but I am paid hourly so it is up to me how much I make.

$90,000 = 58,082.72 euros = 46,222.22 pounds per year

Do you think that would last long in Europe? I am not all that excited about leaving Asia and can probably make similar money here, but it might be a good opportunity.

Tips on negotiating salary, expenses, and benefits?

If you are a good specialist in this field and can make the same money in Asia why even considering it? This sounds like a startup or a project where you will not be needed anymore one day. Netting 60k euro lifts you above the average income level in Europe but considering the efforts behind be it travelling to cold countries like Finland and Sweden or working in Poland and the Czech Republic sounds like a real nightmare to me. Beyond that what about your salary, is this what you are getting paid out and there is some social and health insurance on the top? If you want to regularly participate in the nightlife you gotta spend a lot of your money though I doubt that you will have that much time to live a party life. Ask for double of that salary and still you are not high paid.

Whilst I'm not clear on this individuals background or experience I must say that I think she/he may well benefit a great deal from the experience. My impression is that she/he could be in the position of taking on a challenge that could provide masses of experience in various countries providing an impressive "add on" to hewr C.V. for future reference. The fact that some of the countries are "cold" is irrelevant. "There's no such thing as bad weather, just inappropriate clothing".

Go for it! If you haven't done Europe before ( in depth) this a golden opportunity.

[girlx]

hmm thanks for all the tips. FYI you are right loubrockbank the countries I would be travelling to are Poland, Finland, Sweden, Czech, etc. which to be honest I am not too crazy about because I do hate the cold. But then again, I haven't done Europe before so it might be good experience... if it sucks I can always quit and come back to Asia. 60k net really isn't a lot of cash to make, but if I can get them to cover all my accom expenses it might be all spending (or saving) cash for me.

Argh I am the most indecisive person!

By the way I am single with no dependents, and would love to have cost of living info for that area...

Edited May 14, 2008 by girlx

[Morden]

I forgot about private health insurance - you need to buy good benefits in Europe.

If you decide to do this, I emphasise that you should have the basics of accommodation, services and insurances paid for you in addition to a good salary. Anything less than that sort of deal is poor for Europe and would suggest that the employer is not a good one.

Make sure that you have an escape route if you decide you don't like it.

[girlx]

ok so it sounds like i should ask for:

-Salary (if I can get more than 90k I'll try)

-All Travel and accommodation expenses paid for, including relocation

-International health insurance

-Vacation time so I can escape to Asia in the heart of winter

does that all sound reasonable?

taking into consideration that i REALLY do hate the cold, do you feel i would hate travelling in said countries?

[think_too_mut]

ok so it sounds like i should ask for:

-Salary (if I can get more than 90k I'll try)

-All Travel and accommodation expenses paid for, including relocation

-International health insurance

-Vacation time so I can escape to Asia in the heart of winter

does that all sound reasonable?

taking into consideration that i REALLY do hate the cold, do you feel i would hate travelling in said countries?

Of course travel expenses (no budget airlines and no budget hotels) will be paid. Companies have rules about that, no seious company would pack you on Ryanair.

Relocation - the norm is 5000US$ each way, most companies have adoopted that, it's almost universal for less than executive employees;

International health insurance - I have it, it's about 1200US$ pe month, company pays and the amount never pops up as something tangible - they simply have to pay for that, no discussion;

Vacation time is 4 weeks +, is it not already? If you have to negotiate that, walk away.

Even if they fulfilled all of the above, the only reason I would take a job like this is for experience.

Meanwhile, many in Europe would go for half of that money just to be in Thailand.

[OxfordWill]

Its not fantastic but you will be comfortable if you are sensible. Its enough for a decent mortgage, car payments, etc and everything else you can find to make yourself in debt for a few years.

[thaihome]

Are you an American? If so, you need to ask for a tax equalization package. If working in Holland, I assume you will be liable for Dutch taxes and will still have to pay US taxes on the amount above $87K. Your income will include the housing cost you are paid, which could amount to a lot. The package should net you what you would make at that salary if working in the US. Will they be deducting FICA (Social Security) as well? That will impact your take home.

Another thing to ask for is a cost of living allowance paid in Euros, which will protect you from the dollar deprecation. Nothing worse then to be spending the same amount of local currency and watch your dollar cost go through the roof.

[NordicMan]

Hi all-

.....

$90,000 = 58,082.72 euros = 46,222.22 pounds per year

Do you think that would last long in Europe? I am not all that excited about leaving Asia and can probably make similar money here, but it might be a good opportunity.

What will your tax setup be? Dutch income taxes are among the highest in Europe, you may be looking at somewhere around 45-50% income tax. I am assuming you will get minimal tax deductions - e.g. mortgage interest expense.

If possible, you may consider being based in a country with lower income tax. If you expect to spend most of the time client-side on expense account anyway, living costs in your "base country" will be less important and you could consider a country with high living cost but low income tax. (e.g. UK)

cheers

nm

[britmaveric]

Not very good package if you ask me - 90K Sterling or Euros I would say go for it. Remember its very expensive in Europe compared to Asia and your standard of living will def drop.

[loubrockbank]

hmm thanks for all the tips. FYI you are right loubrockbank the countries I would be travelling to are Poland, Finland, Sweden, Czech, etc. which to be honest I am not too crazy about because I do hate the cold. But then again, I haven't done Europe before so it might be good experience... if it sucks I can always quit and come back to Asia. 60k net really isn't a lot of cash to make, but if I can get them to cover all my accom expenses it might be all spending (or saving) cash for me.

Argh I am the most indecisive person!

By the way I am single with no dependents, and would love to have cost of living info for that area...

ok leave it with me and il see if I have some time tommorow to draw some figures up for you,Ill pm them to you though. Also just to give you an idea - allthough im sure you are aware of the sorts of things companies will offer, this is what our expats get each month( they are well looked after but may give you a few more ideas)

- cola (cost of livng allowance)

- housing allowance - to bridge the gap of housing at home and host ( only applicable if you get housing rather than hotel)

- if you do get a hotel then a daily per diem ie for food / taxis etc

-utility allowance

- international healthcare

- tax support (equalization / tax returns / consultations before assignment < this may be good to ask for so you know how your taxes will be effected due to you going to various countries but really only applicable after a certain amount of time

- a one time relo allowance at start of assignment if moving into housing for misc things like setting up sky / internet etc

-flight expenses

- language lessons

- cross cultural training

- car and appliance loans

- expenses for car hire

the list could go on...but as said this company is very generous... i think you will have a really good experience, so all the best...but yes you will need a nice warm coat

[mattias33]

Hi all-

I am currently talking with an American company about a position based in Amsterdam. That is, I would be working for an American company with Amsterdam as it's European base. I would be building an application which would involve 9 other countries in Europe (including Finland, Sweden, Czech, Poland etc.), and I would have to travel from Amsterdam around to all those countries to work with the clients there. The salary is $90,000 a year plus benefits, plus they pay travel expenses and I think I can even negotiate to get them to pay my accomodation.

Is this a good deal? I have worked freelance so long that I don't know what a good salary is anymore. I am used to living quite comfortably but I am paid hourly so it is up to me how much I make.

$90,000 = 58,082.72 euros = 46,222.22 pounds per year

Do you think that would last long in Europe? I am not all that excited about leaving Asia and can probably make similar money here, but it might be a good opportunity.

Tips on negotiating salary, expenses, and benefits?

In europe this money, at least northern europe witch you also would spend time in if in understand you correctly, would give you a quite limited lifestyle. Its not a top salery so to speak and europe are expensive compared to Usa or asia. If you can have a similar salery over here it would mean a whole different lifestyle. Not to mention the more pleasent climate!! If you are not overexited about europe for other reasons, like wanting to try that life or similar, i´d say you are better of if you stay here.

[think_too_mut]

Not very good package if you ask me - 90K Sterling or Euros I would say go for it. Remember its very expensive in Europe compared to Asia and your standard of living will def drop.

Yeah?

That money is about or 15-20% more than for similar job in Tokyo.

[girlx]

thanks for all the tips- it isn't sounding like a great offer when you figure the taxes in etc. !

you need to ask for a tax equalization package.

can anyone give more details on that?

Edited May 15, 2008 by girlx

[britmaveric]

Not very good package if you ask me - 90K Sterling or Euros I would say go for it. Remember its very expensive in Europe compared to Asia and your standard of living will def drop.

Yeah?

That money is about or 15-20% more than for similar job in Tokyo.

Well don't know what her experience is, but I surely wouldnt take it. Low/Middle on salary scale for a professional (10yrs +) in Europe when you consider taxes, and all other considerations. However suppose my standard is higher!!

Edited May 15, 2008 by britmaveric

[Boo]

For the expereince & providing you aren't getting screwed on taxes within your own country & in europe & as long as they pay all travel, accomadation & health insurance then I would think it would be worth it for a short term contract. If you were clearing 50k gbp & no major outgoing then there is a chance to save some money, travel around europe during your off time (dont' forget we take trips for weekends to france, italy, spain as it is so close & cheap to get there) that imo it would be a good way to see some more of the world whilst earning & saving money.

If it was a long term career plan then no, not a great deal but you have to look at what you are wanting to get out of it I suppose.!!

[think_too_mut]

thanks for all the tips- it isn't sounding like a great offer when you figure the taxes in etc. !

you need to ask for a tax equalization package.

can anyone give more details on that?

Americans have that - the US taxes them regardless. In Japan, there is something like double tax for Americans (because of American laws) + JP tax and JP companies (including American MCs like Citigroup) have to bear it. That makes Americans more expensive to hire.

Not sure how it works but it does exist.

Australia has single tax agreement with Japan so I pay only JP tax (which is now a bit lower, it was considerably lower 5 years ago).

It's a valid point, a must to clarify.

[girlx]

Ok I have asked about the tax situation. They said because I will be living in Amsterdam, I am not taxed (other than social security) on the amount up to $87k because of the foreign earned income credit. Above and beyond that, I will be taxed as an American only (maybe 30%), as they are saying there is a tax treaty between the US/Netherlands. They pay all relocation and travel expenses, as well as my accom in Amsterdam. They have a good global health care package that covers me in any country. They don't offer paid vacation as they are a US company (argh).

So overall, it looks like a good deal except the salary is a bit low, and the no vacation thing irks me. I am going to push for a higher salary and at least two weeks' vacation in the heart of winter so I can come back to visit Thailand.

What do you think? Tips on negotiating the salary? I have never done that before.

[think_too_mut]

They said because I will be living in Amsterdam, I am not taxed (other than social security) on the amount up to $87k because of the foreign earned income credit. Above and beyond that, I will be taxed as an American only (maybe 30%), as they are saying there is a tax treaty between the US/Netherlands.

It's hard to understand that you won't be taxed for earnings of up to 87K - sounds like tax free Dubai.