PAD Lay Siege On Government House, NBT TV Station

[ando]

For the record, I believe that the voting requirements will be changed for the next election. I don't see this Wiki thing being discussed this morning, but rather an educational requirement to qualify to vote which would be enforced. It would lead to local village heads pushing education which would be an upside, but for the time being would remove the threat of Thaksin incarnates continually being elected.

That is just my view and I expect a lot will disagree.

For one section of the community to prosper disproportionately and unfairly requires a large poor underclass to support their excesses. A poor underclass that must be kept in check by being kept poor and uneducated. Basically a feudal system founded on economic and political power over the poor underclass masses. Economic slavery by another name.

Democracy threatens such a feudal system as it gives the peasants a say in how the political and social systems are run.

I have no doubt the elites would love to disenfrancise the rural poor voters and I believe it would be the end of the emerging democracy in Thailand if this were allowed to happen. It would merely strengthen their grip of political power over the peasant class.

Thailand is in a transitional stage between a basically feudal society and a democracy. To exclude the poor rural voters from the democratic process simply because they are poor and uneducated would be a step backwards towards the old feudal system.

This struggle for power we have been witnessing for the past two years is not about Thaksin, the PPP, Samak or corruption. It has much deeper roots than mere gripes over individuals. It is about opposing political ideology. Democracy verses the old feudal system.

[canuckamuck]

For one section of the community to prosper disproportionately and unfairly requires a large poor underclass to support their excesses. A poor underclass that must be kept in check by being kept poor and uneducated. Basically a feudal system founded on economic and political power over the poor underclass masses. Economic slavery by another name.

Democracy threatens such a feudal system as it gives the peasants a say in how the political and social systems are run.

I have no doubt the elites would love to disenfrancise the rural poor voters and I believe it would be the end of the emerging democracy in Thailand if this were allowed to happen. It would merely strengthen their grip of political power over the peasant class.

Thailand is in a transitional stage between a basically feudal society and a democracy. To exclude the poor rural voters from the democratic process simply because they are poor and uneducated would be a step backwards towards the old feudal system.

This struggle for power we have been witnessing for the past two years is not about Thaksin, the PPP, Samak or corruption. It has much deeper roots than mere gripes over individuals. It is about opposing political ideology. Democracy verses the old feudal system.

What he said.

[geriatrickid]

what he said 3X

[thaigene2]

I don't understand how the PPP voters have indicated a lack of education. They voted for the party that they believed, with some cause in my opinion, best represented their interests. EVERY educated person votes that way. (Perhaps the voters who need an education requirement are those in the South who consistently vote for a party that has shown much less concern for the poor).

As far as vote buying, a recent study at a NY university (can't recall) showed that over half would sell their vote for- I think it was- an ipod.

Most of the people in our Thai society still thinks that democracy is accepting money from the party. EVERY "educated" Thai person votes that way, in the South, North, East, Central, everywhere. Don't think that the government is interested to educate our people, especially in rural area, in YOUR "real" way of democracy. That would mean loss of control and power. It will take probably 50 years to change all this - the old Thai elite and powerful families have to die out first.

But then they'll be replaced by their rich craven kids - who believe Thailand is theirs -- and only theirs.

In every country in recent history there comes a point when the masses will say 'we've been exploited and ignored for too long'. Even in passive, brainwashed, Thailand - that day will come. And when it does, the feudal/sakdina/oligarch families won't be able to hide behind yellow shirts and hidden hands...insetad they will become Thaksin's neighbours in London and Hong Kong. I hope that day comes sooner than later..

[cmsally]

Not only is it a struggle between democracy and feudalism; but I think that the military have realised there is much more to gain from staying in the background and letting someone else do your dirty work.

If they should be successful you will see these backers in some powerful and rewarding positions. But of course it will all be kept very quiet.

My feeling is that it is also the play out of a very nasty personal vendetta.

[grantbkk]

Does anyone have a list of closures or disruptions from this debacle? When I went to bed there were three airports shut and no rail service. Have the EGAT and Thai Airways employees join in yet? We used to get at least a little news on this thread. I see from another thread at least one guy is sorting through all the personal attacks and reporting valuable information from the international airport in Phuket.

[Old Man River]

For the record, I believe that the voting requirements will be changed for the next election. I don't see this Wiki thing being discussed this morning, but rather an educational requirement to qualify to vote which would be enforced. It would lead to local village heads pushing education which would be an upside, but for the time being would remove the threat of Thaksin incarnates continually being elected.

That is just my view and I expect a lot will disagree.

For one section of the community to prosper disproportionately and unfairly requires a large poor underclass to support their excesses. A poor underclass that must be kept in check by being kept poor and uneducated. Basically a feudal system founded on economic and political power over the poor underclass masses. Economic slavery by another name.

Democracy threatens such a feudal system as it gives the peasants a say in how the political and social systems are run.

I have no doubt the elites would love to disenfrancise the rural poor voters and I believe it would be the end of the emerging democracy in Thailand if this were allowed to happen. It would merely strengthen their grip of political power over the peasant class.

Thailand is in a transitional stage between a basically feudal society and a democracy. To exclude the poor rural voters from the democratic process simply because they are poor and uneducated would be a step backwards towards the old feudal system.

This struggle for power we have been witnessing for the past two years is not about Thaksin, the PPP, Samak or corruption. It has much deeper roots than mere gripes over individuals. It is about opposing political ideology. Democracy verses the old feudal system.

What you said has merit, but now let's talk about the real world as it relates to Thailand (this is a Thai forum after all). The last two elected governments have been thrown out (OK, the second one is on the way of being thrown out). The first one by the military and this one by the people. So, what kind of democracy is this? Perhaps a different one than we are used to and therefore one requiring a different structure until it develops further.

My "modest" proposal would help us get there. It forces education to become a priority while for the time being, mitigates the threat of power groups seeking to overthrow the next government and then the next government. The value of education gets elevated in the eyes of local village headman and heads of families as it creates a brand new incentive. If you can vote you can elect people that further your needs.

I realize the quality of education is a completely different issue, however, the more people get their minds around getting an education, they more they will learn about the type of education they should seek.

Nothing is perfect, but this elect a government - remove a government BS is getting old. Finding things wrong with proposals is fine, but come up with other solutions instead of saying this won't work and that won't work. What we have now doesn't work, that I can say for sure.

[thaigene2]

Most of them weren't even wearing full riot gear.

With a police force one one side, and a group on the other, I am absolutely astounded everyone was so amazingly restrained. There was one clear shot where a protestor threw a pretty good right hook at one copper and all he did was keep pushing with his shield.

Throw a punch at a policeman in most parts of the world while he is holding a truncheon and see how long you stay standing.

There were cameras everywhere throughout the whole thing with people with red cross singlets telling the coppers to behave as though it was some bizarre WWF event. Brutality, obviously not to many people have seen crowd control in South Korea.

Makes you wonder - this was clearly recorded during the day. Why is it they had to wait until 11:00 pm to deliver the CD - and until 1:15 AM to show it? Most news that I know of is shown minutes, at most a couple of hours, after it takes place.

I think it's pretty clear that they were relying on the couple of incidents to be able to use the word "brutality" in a vague sense to convey the impression that this brutality was widespread. Not saying there wasn't brutal force used - clearly there was - but to repeatedly claim Thai police brutality throughout the day is nothing but spin.

I don't know, but when I got a feverish phone call from my wife to turn on the TV because the police were attacking this morning, I was expecting to see water cannon, fully clothed riot police, and tear gas. It ended up in a bizarre kind of group hug and it didn't appear that a blow was made in earnest from what I watched.

I don't doubt there have been injuries, but I don't really think anyone could call the police conduct brutal. It is a scrum of people pushing. Inevitably people get hurt. It could have been a hel_l of a lot worse, and I don't doubt that 90% of these police don't like to have their authority challenged like this. They could be showering every site with tear gas and believe me, no one would stay.

hel_l, 20 years ago, they hung student protestors in Korat.

Yes isn't it interesting to note that everytime there is a left-wing protest (e.g. led by middle-class students largely against unelected, military/"appointed" governments) - like those of the 70's, 80's and even 90's - extreme violence is used to protect the interests of the elites/oligarch/feudalists and no is ever brought to account - then it's all basically ignored by most of society in the decades that follow - so as not to anger the elites.

BUT - as soon as the proxies of the elites (e.g. the fuedalist anti-democrat-supported PAD protestors) start running riot through the capital, comandeering airports and the like, any cop who dares to raise a shield against them is using 'brutal violence'. And the elites warn the elected Government not to use any force to stop them - which means they have no power to stop them. A self-fullfilling prophecy of the elites.

***incitement removed*** If this were my country, I'd already be in the streets taking up defensive/offensive positions. But it's not - so the best I can do is teach my kids the PAD are enemies of Thailand...and rant on a web board like this.

Edited August 30, 2008 by sbk
please read the forum rules regarding advocating illegal activities--sbk

[esprit]

Whilst throughtout all this thread there has been supporters of / against PAD, Samak, Toxin and others no one I believe has considered the worst case scenario that this in-fighting could bring.

It has been suggested that the army is fractionalised with nobody being too sure which party would be prepared to support. The police appear to have on this occasion acted or reacted generally in an acceptable fashion unusually., thus who would they be prepared to support ?

If these demonstartions spread throughout the country like a cancer it only plays into the hand of the 2 main players and given the time that has elapsed since this scenario started playing out, both camps must be well organised, financed and ready to step up a gear to play out a potentially ultimate chapter. Very conceivably this country could dive into a civil war situation given the apparent split in the armed forces so hence the weaponery is avaialbe to conduct such a hideous outcome.

Should that happen then this country will change signifcantly. Then my friends the price of beer may very well go up owing to the slump in the value of the baht and that would be nasty.

[LeungKen]

Hi Folks,

Spare a thought for the moderators, it's a thankless task at the best of times, and now in these emotional times it's all they can do to keep up with the postings let alone moderate succesfully.

We as posters, can make their task easier and try and return to a little more civility when posting.

To all the mods, cheers & good luck for a sterling effort.

Now back to the topic.......

[TexasRanger]

Hi Folks,

Spare a thought for the moderators, it's a thankless task at the best of times, and now in these emotional times it's all they can do to keep up with the postings let alone moderate succesfully.

We as posters, can make their task easier and try and return to a little more civility when posting.

To all the mods, cheers & good luck for a sterling effort.

Now back to the topic.......

WOW

[fidelio]

Most of them weren't even wearing full riot gear.

With a police force one one side, and a group on the other, I am absolutely astounded everyone was so amazingly restrained. There was one clear shot where a protestor threw a pretty good right hook at one copper and all he did was keep pushing with his shield.

Throw a punch at a policeman in most parts of the world while he is holding a truncheon and see how long you stay standing.

There were cameras everywhere throughout the whole thing with people with red cross singlets telling the coppers to behave as though it was some bizarre WWF event. Brutality, obviously not to many people have seen crowd control in South Korea.

Makes you wonder - this was clearly recorded during the day. Why is it they had to wait until 11:00 pm to deliver the CD - and until 1:15 AM to show it? Most news that I know of is shown minutes, at most a couple of hours, after it takes place.

I think it's pretty clear that they were relying on the couple of incidents to be able to use the word "brutality" in a vague sense to convey the impression that this brutality was widespread. Not saying there wasn't brutal force used - clearly there was - but to repeatedly claim Thai police brutality throughout the day is nothing but spin.

I don't know, but when I got a feverish phone call from my wife to turn on the TV because the police were attacking this morning, I was expecting to see water cannon, fully clothed riot police, and tear gas. It ended up in a bizarre kind of group hug and it didn't appear that a blow was made in earnest from what I watched.

I don't doubt there have been injuries, but I don't really think anyone could call the police conduct brutal. It is a scrum of people pushing. Inevitably people get hurt. It could have been a hel_l of a lot worse, and I don't doubt that 90% of these police don't like to have their authority challenged like this. They could be showering every site with tear gas and believe me, no one would stay.

hel_l, 20 years ago, they hung student protestors in Korat.

Yes isn't it interesting to note that everytime there is a left-wing protest (e.g. led by middle-class students largely against unelected, military/"appointed" governments) - like those of the 70's, 80's and even 90's - extreme violence is used to protect the interests of the elites/oligarch/feudalists and no is ever brought to account - then it's all basically ignored by most of society in the decades that follow - so as not to anger the elites.

BUT - as soon as the proxies of the elites (e.g. the fuedalist anti-democrat-supported PAD protestors) start running riot through the capital, comandeering airports and the like, any cop who dares to raise a shield against them is using 'brutal violence'. And the elites warn the elected Government not to use any force to stop them - which means they have no power to stop them. A self-fullfilling prophecy of the elites.

***incitement removed*** If this were my country, I'd already be in the streets taking up defensive/offensive positions. But it's not - so the best I can do is teach my kids the PAD are enemies of Thailand...and rant on a web board like this.

Why is it that only farangs seem to be able to connect the dots...

[Thai at Heart]

For the record, I believe that the voting requirements will be changed for the next election. I don't see this Wiki thing being discussed this morning, but rather an educational requirement to qualify to vote which would be enforced. It would lead to local village heads pushing education which would be an upside, but for the time being would remove the threat of Thaksin incarnates continually being elected.

That is just my view and I expect a lot will disagree.

For one section of the community to prosper disproportionately and unfairly requires a large poor underclass to support their excesses. A poor underclass that must be kept in check by being kept poor and uneducated. Basically a feudal system founded on economic and political power over the poor underclass masses. Economic slavery by another name.

Democracy threatens such a feudal system as it gives the peasants a say in how the political and social systems are run.

I have no doubt the elites would love to disenfrancise the rural poor voters and I believe it would be the end of the emerging democracy in Thailand if this were allowed to happen. It would merely strengthen their grip of political power over the peasant class.

Thailand is in a transitional stage between a basically feudal society and a democracy. To exclude the poor rural voters from the democratic process simply because they are poor and uneducated would be a step backwards towards the old feudal system.

This struggle for power we have been witnessing for the past two years is not about Thaksin, the PPP, Samak or corruption. It has much deeper roots than mere gripes over individuals. It is about opposing political ideology. Democracy verses the old feudal system.

What you said has merit, but now let's talk about the real world as it relates to Thailand (this is a Thai forum after all). The last two elected governments have been thrown out (OK, the second one is on the way of being thrown out). The first one by the military and this one by the people. So, what kind of democracy is this? Perhaps a different one than we are used to and therefore one requiring a different structure until it develops further.

My "modest" proposal would help us get there. It forces education to become a priority while for the time being, mitigates the threat of power groups seeking to overthrow the next government and then the next government. The value of education gets elevated in the eyes of local village headman and heads of families as it creates a brand new incentive. If you can vote you can elect people that further your needs.

I realize the quality of education is a completely different issue, however, the more people get their minds around getting an education, they more they will learn about the type of education they should seek.

Nothing is perfect, but this elect a government - remove a government BS is getting old. Finding things wrong with proposals is fine, but come up with other solutions instead of saying this won't work and that won't work. What we have now doesn't work, that I can say for sure.

Government on the basis of Buddhist precepts would be taken more seriously than apartheid.

Men are prone ot greed, lust, anger and selfishness. Not really the best qualities for true, honest, selfless government. No men allowed to vote or sit in any form of public office.

[canuckamuck]

What you said has merit, but now let's talk about the real world as it relates to Thailand (this is a Thai forum after all). The last two elected governments have been thrown out (OK, the second one is on the way of being thrown out). The first one by the military and this one by the people. So, what kind of democracy is this? Perhaps a different one than we are used to and therefore one requiring a different structure until it develops further.

My "modest" proposal would help us get there. It forces education to become a priority while for the time being, mitigates the threat of power groups seeking to overthrow the next government and then the next government. The value of education gets elevated in the eyes of local village headman and heads of families as it creates a brand new incentive. If you can vote you can elect people that further your needs.

I realize the quality of education is a completely different issue, however, the more people get their minds around getting an education, they more they will learn about the type of education they should seek.

Nothing is perfect, but this elect a government - remove a government BS is getting old. Finding things wrong with proposals is fine, but come up with other solutions instead of saying this won't work and that won't work. What we have now doesn't work, that I can say for sure.

You are failing to understand the concept of democracy, and on top of that you are making some sweeping value judgements about the less educated.

If you keep the common man from voting, it is feudalism even if you dress it up like democracy. Fuedalism is the ball and chain keeping Thailand in this banana republic identity; when by now, it could be competing with progressive Asian nations.

The reason for this recent protest is that the big money Thais, can't accept they are equal in rights to the farmers, so they keep shaking the tree until someone that will look after their personal ambition ends up in power. It is not because less educated people choose badly. They are choosing very well because by their experience the TRT and the PPP have made some effort to consider what they need. Were the last two elected governments corrupt? yes of course, but they all have been corrupt, so the point is moot.

Put in a condition of education requirement to vote and you will ensure Fuedal policies and exploitation of the lower classes for another 50 years.

Thailand needs nothing more than lift it's self deluded head out of bronze age policies and start a massive education and integrity initiative. Wouldn't it be great if diligence and integrity were considered values here instead of face and geneology.

[Old Man River]

What you said has merit, but now let's talk about the real world as it relates to Thailand (this is a Thai forum after all). The last two elected governments have been thrown out (OK, the second one is on the way of being thrown out). The first one by the military and this one by the people. So, what kind of democracy is this? Perhaps a different one than we are used to and therefore one requiring a different structure until it develops further.

My "modest" proposal would help us get there. It forces education to become a priority while for the time being, mitigates the threat of power groups seeking to overthrow the next government and then the next government. The value of education gets elevated in the eyes of local village headman and heads of families as it creates a brand new incentive. If you can vote you can elect people that further your needs.

I realize the quality of education is a completely different issue, however, the more people get their minds around getting an education, they more they will learn about the type of education they should seek.

Nothing is perfect, but this elect a government - remove a government BS is getting old. Finding things wrong with proposals is fine, but come up with other solutions instead of saying this won't work and that won't work. What we have now doesn't work, that I can say for sure.

You are failing to understand the concept of democracy, and on top of that you are making some sweeping value judgements about the less educated.

If you keep the common man from voting, it is feudalism even if you dress it up like democracy. Fuedalism is the ball and chain keeping Thailand in this banana republic identity; when by now, it could be competing with progressive Asian nations.

The reason for this recent protest is that the big money Thais, can't accept they are equal in rights to the farmers, so they keep shaking the tree until someone that will look after their personal ambition ends up in power. It is not because less educated people choose badly. They are choosing very well because by their experience the TRT and the PPP have made some effort to consider what they need. Were the last two elected governments corrupt? yes of course, but they all have been corrupt, so the point is moot.

Put in a condition of education requirement to vote and you will ensure Fuedal policies and exploitation of the lower classes for another 50 years.

Thailand needs nothing more than lift it's self deluded head out of bronze age policies and start a massive education and integrity initiative. Wouldn't it be great if diligence and integrity were considered values here instead of face and geneology.

Oh, I forgot. There was also an election that the courts dissolved. One by the courts, one by the military and one by the people. That is strike three. Time for a change.

[blaze]

For the record, I believe that the voting requirements will be changed for the next election. I don't see this Wiki thing being discussed this morning, but rather an educational requirement to qualify to vote which would be enforced. It would lead to local village heads pushing education which would be an upside, but for the time being would remove the threat of Thaksin incarnates continually being elected.

That is just my view and I expect a lot will disagree.

For one section of the community to prosper disproportionately and unfairly requires a large poor underclass to support their excesses. A poor underclass that must be kept in check by being kept poor and uneducated. Basically a feudal system founded on economic and political power over the poor underclass masses. Economic slavery by another name.

Democracy threatens such a feudal system as it gives the peasants a say in how the political and social systems are run.

I have no doubt the elites would love to disenfrancise the rural poor voters and I believe it would be the end of the emerging democracy in Thailand if this were allowed to happen. It would merely strengthen their grip of political power over the peasant class.

Thailand is in a transitional stage between a basically feudal society and a democracy. To exclude the poor rural voters from the democratic process simply because they are poor and uneducated would be a step backwards towards the old feudal system.

This struggle for power we have been witnessing for the past two years is not about Thaksin, the PPP, Samak or corruption. It has much deeper roots than mere gripes over individuals. It is about opposing political ideology. Democracy verses the old feudal system.

Absolutely correct Ando. A truly educated peasant class is the very last thing that the bourgeoise and middle classes should be demanding--- it would very likely yield a left wing movement the likes of which this country has never experienced. Those operating under the misguided notion that education means people vote in the best interests of their wealthier neighbors- would be in for a very rude awakening.

[RadioCityMike]

What you said has merit, but now let's talk about the real world as it relates to Thailand (this is a Thai forum after all). The last two elected governments have been thrown out (OK, the second one is on the way of being thrown out). The first one by the military and this one by the people. So, what kind of democracy is this? Perhaps a different one than we are used to and therefore one requiring a different structure until it develops further.

My "modest" proposal would help us get there. It forces education to become a priority while for the time being, mitigates the threat of power groups seeking to overthrow the next government and then the next government. The value of education gets elevated in the eyes of local village headman and heads of families as it creates a brand new incentive. If you can vote you can elect people that further your needs.

I realize the quality of education is a completely different issue, however, the more people get their minds around getting an education, they more they will learn about the type of education they should seek.

Nothing is perfect, but this elect a government - remove a government BS is getting old. Finding things wrong with proposals is fine, but come up with other solutions instead of saying this won't work and that won't work. What we have now doesn't work, that I can say for sure.

You are failing to understand the concept of democracy, and on top of that you are making some sweeping value judgements about the less educated.

If you keep the common man from voting, it is feudalism even if you dress it up like democracy. Fuedalism is the ball and chain keeping Thailand in this banana republic identity; when by now, it could be competing with progressive Asian nations.

The reason for this recent protest is that the big money Thais, can't accept they are equal in rights to the farmers, so they keep shaking the tree until someone that will look after their personal ambition ends up in power. It is not because less educated people choose badly. They are choosing very well because by their experience the TRT and the PPP have made some effort to consider what they need. Were the last two elected governments corrupt? yes of course, but they all have been corrupt, so the point is moot.

Put in a condition of education requirement to vote and you will ensure Fuedal policies and exploitation of the lower classes for another 50 years.

Thailand needs nothing more than lift it's self deluded head out of bronze age policies and start a massive education and integrity initiative. Wouldn't it be great if diligence and integrity were considered values here instead of face and geneology.

I agree with your post. I think it is also important to note that there were no demonstrations in support of TRT after the coup. I think that is because it was a military government that did not allow protests or allow assembly. There was also heavy censorship. Anyone who spoke out against the coup could have been shot. In the event that a new government is formed that allows any kind of freedom of speech, the demonstrations will be massive in support of PPP and they will have the precedent of the PAD demonstrations to create the same chaos that PAD has created. I suspect they would also be very well funded. The fear is that there will be an endless cycle of demonstrations that become progressively more aggressive and dangerous.

[ando]

What you said has merit, but now let's talk about the real world as it relates to Thailand (this is a Thai forum after all). The last two elected governments have been thrown out (OK, the second one is on the way of being thrown out). The first one by the military and this one by the people. So, what kind of democracy is this? Perhaps a different one than we are used to and therefore one requiring a different structure until it develops further.

My "modest" proposal would help us get there. It forces education to become a priority while for the time being, mitigates the threat of power groups seeking to overthrow the next government and then the next government. The value of education gets elevated in the eyes of local village headman and heads of families as it creates a brand new incentive. If you can vote you can elect people that further your needs.

I realize the quality of education is a completely different issue, however, the more people get their minds around getting an education, they more they will learn about the type of education they should seek.

Nothing is perfect, but this elect a government - remove a government BS is getting old. Finding things wrong with proposals is fine, but come up with other solutions instead of saying this won't work and that won't work. What we have now doesn't work, that I can say for sure.

As I said, disenfranchising rural voters and thus handing political power to the urban elite class is a step backwards away from democracy and towards the old feudal system. The chaos we see now is basically a contest between the two socio/political systems. The ruling class are not about to give up their privileged lifestyle without a fight. And what they are fighting against is democracy and a more equitable society. I don't believe handing the elite the electoral edge by banning people without certain educational standards would make the elite any more agreeable to a democratic, socially just system. In fact I believe it would simply entrench their economic strangle hold over the poor.

And I don't believe the theory that if rural voters are disenfranchised it will spur them on to get an education in the hope they may reach a level of education that they may be eligible to vote. Many of the rural poor are indeed educating their kids as best they can afford at the moment. However for the very poor, education is a luxury they simply cant afford while labour is needed to scratch out a subsistence level living in the rice fields.

If the bar was set at say a year 10 education to be eligible to vote, it might take two, three or more generations in order to get the rural population back up to the present level of voting strength. Say 50 years of rule by the elite class feudal system before democracy could start to emerge again. And what then? Probably another conflict between the ruling class and the peasants in favour of democracy. Around one third of the Thai population lives in the North East. Many are dirt poor, only scratching out a subsistence level living on marginal soil without irrigation. Raising a family on incomes of between 2 and 6,000 baht a month. And in bad years going into debt to feed the family and often losing the farm alltogether to the loan sharks. To tell these people their vote doesnt count anymore and if they want to vote they have to go back to school for 5 years is really an insult to their value as a person and a citizen. It would be a solid move entrenching the class system that already exists and that democracy threatens.

Before I close here please allow me to digress and answer a statement in your above post.

You said,--

"The last two elected governments have been thrown out (OK, the second one is on the way of being thrown out). The first one by the military and this one by the people."[/i]

I have to disagree strongly there. This government, if it is indeed toppled, would NOT have been "thrown out by the people". It will have been thrown out by a very small minority of the people. And thrown out by means which would be considered illegitimate in any civilized democracy. To rightfully say that a government was thrown out by the people, it would have to go to the vote at an election in a democracy. What we have here and now in Thailand is a situation where by less than 0.1% of the voters are mounting a campaign of civil unrest and violence in an effort to force their will on the other 99.9% of voters.

[HelterSkelter]

What you said has merit, but now let's talk about the real world as it relates to Thailand (this is a Thai forum after all). The last two elected governments have been thrown out (OK, the second one is on the way of being thrown out). The first one by the military and this one by the people. So, what kind of democracy is this? Perhaps a different one than we are used to and therefore one requiring a different structure until it develops further.

My "modest" proposal would help us get there. It forces education to become a priority while for the time being, mitigates the threat of power groups seeking to overthrow the next government and then the next government. The value of education gets elevated in the eyes of local village headman and heads of families as it creates a brand new incentive. If you can vote you can elect people that further your needs.

I realize the quality of education is a completely different issue, however, the more people get their minds around getting an education, they more they will learn about the type of education they should seek.

Nothing is perfect, but this elect a government - remove a government BS is getting old. Finding things wrong with proposals is fine, but come up with other solutions instead of saying this won't work and that won't work. What we have now doesn't work, that I can say for sure.

You are failing to understand the concept of democracy, and on top of that you are making some sweeping value judgements about the less educated.

If you keep the common man from voting, it is feudalism even if you dress it up like democracy. Fuedalism is the ball and chain keeping Thailand in this banana republic identity; when by now, it could be competing with progressive Asian nations.

The reason for this recent protest is that the big money Thais, can't accept they are equal in rights to the farmers, so they keep shaking the tree until someone that will look after their personal ambition ends up in power. It is not because less educated people choose badly. They are choosing very well because by their experience the TRT and the PPP have made some effort to consider what they need. Were the last two elected governments corrupt? yes of course, but they all have been corrupt, so the point is moot.

Put in a condition of education requirement to vote and you will ensure Fuedal policies and exploitation of the lower classes for another 50 years.

Thailand needs nothing more than lift it's self deluded head out of bronze age policies and start a massive education and integrity initiative. Wouldn't it be great if diligence and integrity were considered values here instead of face and geneology.

Oh, I forgot. There was also an election that the courts dissolved. One by the courts, one by the military and one by the people. That is strike three. Time for a change.

"Time For Change"!???

Meanwhile the reports are comming in from Isan via "Jungle Telegraph"(Relations in Law) That People are paid 500baht a day and given free Bus Journey to Bangkok.To "Enjoy" The Free Festival Hosted and Sponsored by the PAD!(Political Attention Deficient)(Later "Religious Chasms will split these "Waco" Texas style PAD leaders up in the south!Bring on the "Cool Aid"!F..ing Sad For Beautiful LOS and the "Majority" of Peace Loving,Hard working,VOTING Thai Peoples!My Heart is Heavy for Bangkok and all the small enterprise focused on Tourism!

[WISteve]

" News Desk

The Nation (Thailand)

Publication Date: 30-08-2008

Thai Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej met with King Bhumibol Adulaydej on Friday night to report the current situation in the country, an informed source said Saturday.

Samak went by private jet to the king's Klaikangwon Palace in the resort town of Hua Hin late Friday's evening.

The Thai premier is scheduled to return to Bangkok this morning. "

The Nation report

[midas]

And I don't believe the theory that if rural voters are disenfranchised it will spur them on to get an education in the hope they may reach a level of education that they may be eligible to vote. Many of the rural poor are indeed educating their kids as best they can afford at the moment. However for the very poor, education is a luxury they simply cant afford while labour is needed to scratch out a subsistence level living in the rice fields.

I agree !

How many have spent extended periods of time in rural NE Thailand ? I have and the majority of the people

seem to have no interest whatsover in affairs outside their village life. Even with satellite TV they are just

happy to be cut off from the rest of the world - they seem to have no curosity regarding other events

- no wonder even in 2008 a " farang " still seems like an out of space alien! I continue to ask myself now as i have

all along - do they / did they really understand what or who they were voting for ?

[way2muchcoffee]

What we have here and now in Thailand is a situation where by less than 0.1% of the voters are mounting a campaign of civil unrest and violence in an effort to force their will on the other 99.9% of voters.

Your post is well-written and fairly well thought out. Why would you end it with a meaningless statistic that you can't possibly defend? The fact of the matter is that nobody really knows how many people the PAD represent.

[h90]

What you said has merit, but now let's talk about the real world as it relates to Thailand (this is a Thai forum after all). The last two elected governments have been thrown out (OK, the second one is on the way of being thrown out). The first one by the military and this one by the people. So, what kind of democracy is this? Perhaps a different one than we are used to and therefore one requiring a different structure until it develops further.

My "modest" proposal would help us get there. It forces education to become a priority while for the time being, mitigates the threat of power groups seeking to overthrow the next government and then the next government. The value of education gets elevated in the eyes of local village headman and heads of families as it creates a brand new incentive. If you can vote you can elect people that further your needs.

I realize the quality of education is a completely different issue, however, the more people get their minds around getting an education, they more they will learn about the type of education they should seek.

Nothing is perfect, but this elect a government - remove a government BS is getting old. Finding things wrong with proposals is fine, but come up with other solutions instead of saying this won't work and that won't work. What we have now doesn't work, that I can say for sure.

You are failing to understand the concept of democracy, and on top of that you are making some sweeping value judgements about the less educated.

If you keep the common man from voting, it is feudalism even if you dress it up like democracy. Fuedalism is the ball and chain keeping Thailand in this banana republic identity; when by now, it could be competing with progressive Asian nations.

The reason for this recent protest is that the big money Thais, can't accept they are equal in rights to the farmers, so they keep shaking the tree until someone that will look after their personal ambition ends up in power. It is not because less educated people choose badly. They are choosing very well because by their experience the TRT and the PPP have made some effort to consider what they need. Were the last two elected governments corrupt? yes of course, but they all have been corrupt, so the point is moot.

Put in a condition of education requirement to vote and you will ensure Fuedal policies and exploitation of the lower classes for another 50 years.

Thailand needs nothing more than lift it's self deluded head out of bronze age policies and start a massive education and integrity initiative. Wouldn't it be great if diligence and integrity were considered values here instead of face and geneology.

Oh, I forgot. There was also an election that the courts dissolved. One by the courts, one by the military and one by the people. That is strike three. Time for a change.

"Time For Change"!???

Meanwhile the reports are comming in from Isan via "Jungle Telegraph"(Relations in Law) That People are paid 500baht a day and given free Bus Journey to Bangkok.To "Enjoy" The Free Festival Hosted and Sponsored by the PAD!(Political Attention Deficient)(Later "Religious Chasms will split these "Waco" Texas style PAD leaders up in the south!Bring on the "Cool Aid"!F..ing Sad For Beautiful LOS and the "Majority" of Peace Loving,Hard working,VOTING Thai Peoples!My Heart is Heavy for Bangkok and all the small enterprise focused on Tourism!

very improbable....most probably another lie

[WISteve]

The BBC footage of the tear gas at the police headquarters is rather dramatic.

Sorry if it's been posted previously.

BBC Report

"Pressure is building on Thai Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej, amid spiralling protests against his rule.

Activists who had been holed up in the main government complex for almost four days spilled out to surround police headquarters before being dispersed.

Outside Bangkok, strikes in support of the protests have disrupted travel.

The head of the army dismissed rumours of a coup, but called on the government to negotiate with protesters, which the authorities have so far refused to do.

The protests are being led by a conservative group called the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD).

They say Mr Samak is a puppet of former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, who was ousted by a military coup in 2006 and is now in exile to avoid facing trial over corruption charges.

According to the BBC correspondent in Bangkok, Jonathan Head, the position of Mr Samak, who had hoped he could tough out these protests, now looks precarious.

The prime minister has said he might declare a state of emergency if the situation worsens.

In a matter of hours, the tables have turned against Thailand's embattled prime minister, our correspondent says.

Earlier this week Mr Samak was praised for his restraint in dealing with the PAD, which has been occupying his office compound since Tuesday.

But he suddenly found his position weakened late on Friday when the police pulled back and the triumphant protest leaders were left in control of the complex.

About 2,000 of them then besieged the city's police headquarters.

Police fired what appeared to be tear gas on the crowds, and they dispersed shortly afterwards. One correspondent reported seeing several protesters vomiting.

Demonstrations are also said to have taken place at two major airports in the south of the country.

Tourists climb the wall of Phuket airport after finding the exits blockaded by protesters on Friday

At Phuket airport, tourists shut in by protesters had to struggle over the perimeter fence

Phuket and Krabi airports have closed, and there were reports of blockades in Hat Yai. Reports suggested protesters were planning to mount similar actions at Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai in the north.

Some rail workers have gone on strike in support of the protests, and to demand better work conditions, disrupting services on lines from Bangkok to the country's north-east.

And union leaders - including those from flagship airline Thai Airways - have called for workers to join in the stoppage.

Rumours of an impending coup have been circulating in Thailand throughout the week, our correspondent says. "

[ando]

Absolutely correct Ando. A truly educated peasant class is the very last thing that the bourgeoise and middle classes should be demanding--- it would very likely yield a left wing movement the likes of which this country has never experienced. Those operating under the misguided notion that education means people vote in the best interests of their wealthier neighbors- would be in for a very rude awakening.

Yes it could end up as a pressure cooker situation where by it blows its lid some years or decades down the track.

Right now, by holding back democratic progress, the ruling class are creating the foundation for a revolution sometime in the future.

[HelterSkelter]

What you said has merit, but now let's talk about the real world as it relates to Thailand (this is a Thai forum after all). The last two elected governments have been thrown out (OK, the second one is on the way of being thrown out). The first one by the military and this one by the people. So, what kind of democracy is this? Perhaps a different one than we are used to and therefore one requiring a different structure until it develops further.

My "modest" proposal would help us get there. It forces education to become a priority while for the time being, mitigates the threat of power groups seeking to overthrow the next government and then the next government. The value of education gets elevated in the eyes of local village headman and heads of families as it creates a brand new incentive. If you can vote you can elect people that further your needs.

I realize the quality of education is a completely different issue, however, the more people get their minds around getting an education, they more they will learn about the type of education they should seek.

Nothing is perfect, but this elect a government - remove a government BS is getting old. Finding things wrong with proposals is fine, but come up with other solutions instead of saying this won't work and that won't work. What we have now doesn't work, that I can say for sure.

As I said, disenfranchising rural voters and thus handing political power to the urban elite class is a step backwards away from democracy and towards the old feudal system. The chaos we see now is basically a contest between the two socio/political systems. The ruling class are not about to give up their privileged lifestyle without a fight. And what they are fighting against is democracy and a more equitable society. I don't believe handing the elite the electoral edge by banning people without certain educational standards would make the elite any more agreeable to a democratic, socially just system. In fact I believe it would simply entrench their economic strangle hold over the poor.

And I don't believe the theory that if rural voters are disenfranchised it will spur them on to get an education in the hope they may reach a level of education that they may be eligible to vote. Many of the rural poor are indeed educating their kids as best they can afford at the moment. However for the very poor, education is a luxury they simply cant afford while labour is needed to scratch out a subsistence level living in the rice fields.

If the bar was set at say a year 10 education to be eligible to vote, it might take two, three or more generations in order to get the rural population back up to the present level of voting strength. Say 50 years of rule by the elite class feudal system before democracy could start to emerge again. And what then? Probably another conflict between the ruling class and the peasants in favour of democracy. Around one third of the Thai population lives in the North East. Many are dirt poor, only scratching out a subsistence level living on marginal soil without irrigation. Raising a family on incomes of between 2 and 6,000 baht a month. And in bad years going into debt to feed the family and often losing the farm alltogether to the loan sharks. To tell these people their vote doesnt count anymore and if they want to vote they have to go back to school for 5 years is really an insult to their value as a person and a citizen. It would be a solid move entrenching the class system that already exists and that democracy threatens.

Before I close here please allow me to digress and answer a statement in your above post.

You said,--

"The last two elected governments have been thrown out (OK, the second one is on the way of being thrown out). The first one by the military and this one by the people."[/i]

I have to disagree strongly there. This government, if it is indeed toppled, would NOT have been "thrown out by the people". It will have been thrown out by a very small minority of the people. And thrown out by means which would be considered illegitimate in any civilized democracy. To rightfully say that a government was thrown out by the people, it would have to go to the vote at an election in a democracy. What we have here and now in Thailand is a situation where by less than 0.1% of the voters are mounting a campaign of civil unrest and violence in an effort to force their will on the other 99.9% of voters.

I second This Well Formed Informative anology!

In ANY More Mature Democracy, The PAD(Leaders Resposible) would Be Guilty of Treason,Acts of Terrorism,Endagering National and Civil security,Damaging Private Property and Destruction of Government Property,Slander and Liabel,Inciting public disorder,and Indecent Exposure! (Crapping and Pissing in a Public Place)And just Being downright Nasty People in General.

UnFortunately the Thai Devoloping Democracy Has'nt had the time to Legislate Strong and clear Laws to Protect the Public from "Mafia Thugs" and or "Social Terrorists" and the Like!

In 92 I was In Earshot of The University When one of this "Gang" "Gen NutcaseSupreme" Ordered the students Shot!I felt the sounds of terror peirce My heart.In the Days which persued I was Burdoned with the Thai Peoples fear and Anguish at the Hopelessnes of the Situation! Thanks Be that "The Big Guy" Intervened then.

"Gen NutcaseSupreme" is still free and Ringleader #3 of this Terror Circus!

[Crushdepth]

I don't think its about feudalism or whatever, its just a case that Thailand doesn't have a system of governance strong enough to contain politicians abuse of power once they are in office. Fix that problem and you would have a fairly healthy democracy. Hence HM recent audiences with various members of the judiciary.

Samak's alternative solution is to amend the constitution to make it tolerant of electoral fraud. This will perpetuate the problem, and the protestors are doing the country a great service by opposing it IMHO.

I agree that some of PAD's methods would be unacceptable in a mature democracy, but this isn't a mature democracy. They are fighting to try and get one.

Edit: You beat me to it, but I would add 'and crooked politicians' to your list:

UnFortunately the Thai Devoloping Democracy Has'nt had the time to Legislate Strong and clear Laws to Protect the Public from "Mafia Thugs" and or "Social Terrorists" and the Like!

Edited August 30, 2008 by Crushdepth

[WISteve]

Khun Sondhi:

...and Chamlong. A/P.

~WISteve

[kurtgruen]

Hmmmm...

You have a Protest leader, who owns a police station, which constantly airs free service announcements against Child Labour, against family violence, against sex slavery. A station that educates people about AIDS and other things

You have protest leaders who have been keeping large masses of people demonstrating peacefully. Protest leaders who know how to organize defensive moves to hold their ground at the government building

Lots of intelligent people supporting them....doctors, teachers, University Students, Pilots, etc....

while they are leading a peaceful, civil disobedience protest...

...and you call them bad

Then you got Samak and his corrupt government, who only got elected, because they bought the votes, who have less than 50% of voter support in Thailand (even after spending billions of Baht trying to buy it), who use force to deal with peaceful demonstrators, beating on old men and women, etc....

A government that tortures innocent hilltribe people to admit to crimes they didn't commit. An illegal government under Thai constitution, because of it's leaders being involved in vote buying..

and you they they are good????

Give me a break.

I openly support the PAD, so does my Thai wife and we are proud of it.

For 24 hour coverage of the demonstrations here is the ASTV link...

http://www.thailandoutlook.tv/

[Colonel_Mustard]

Hmmmm...

You have a Protest leader, who owns a police station

Presumably not one of the police stations that his idiotic mobs attack

Edited August 30, 2008 by Colonel_Mustard