PAD Lay Siege On Government House, NBT TV Station

[Bangyai]

Hmmmm...

You have a Protest leader, who owns a police station, which constantly airs free service announcements against Child Labour, against family violence, against sex slavery. A station that educates people about AIDS and other things

You have protest leaders who have been keeping large masses of people demonstrating peacefully. Protest leaders who know how to organize defensive moves to hold their ground at the government building

Lots of intelligent people supporting them....doctors, teachers, University Students, Pilots, etc....

while they are leading a peaceful, civil disobedience protest...

...and you call them bad

Then you got Samak and his corrupt government, who only got elected, because they bought the votes, who have less than 50% of voter support in Thailand (even after spending billions of Baht trying to buy it), who use force to deal with peaceful demonstrators, beating on old men and women, etc....

A government that tortures innocent hilltribe people to admit to crimes they didn't commit. An illegal government under Thai constitution, because of it's leaders being involved in vote buying..

and you they they are good????

Give me a break.

I openly support the PAD, so does my Thai wife and we are proud of it.

For 24 hour coverage of the demonstrations here is the ASTV link...

http://www.thaiDUMLOOK.tv/

I seriously doubt that you are what you claim to be.

Why do you find it necessary to post nonsense (now Samak is "torturing hill-tribe people.....") at regular intervals just to constantly post the link to ASTV?

Yae ASTV the opium of the Minorities!(Arethey Chewing Beetle Nut or something while Glued to that crap?)

KURTGRUEN: My THAI WIFE translates EVERTHING those Thugs are saying! WAKE UP and SMELL THE COFFEE MAN!!!! Sondhi and Loonie Gang ONLY Want YOUR MONEY! They Despise You and ALL of Farang who aint "CHIN"! They DON"T want Democracy.THAT is "YOUR FARANG POISON".

I have heard Him and Other PAD Leaders speak and These quotes are QUOTES!

"Motherf...ing farang Dogs". "F..king Kwai Farang Come to Thailand and Think they can Force us to elect leaders to suit their pillaging of Thai Economy"( Kwai= Buffalo =stupid)"Stupid Isan Dogs Who Voted for This and the Previous Govt""If SamaK(yes the Elect Prime minister of this nation) comes To the South WE will Kill him" Quotes From PAD ASTV and Sondhi.

KURTGRUEN: If You support Xenophobic KNOWN criminals who Hate You and ALL You stand for and Talk OPENLY about it,

They WILL take Your Business,Land,Home and Right to Be Here when they are ruling! You/ We are screwed on that day!You as many others love to be an open book and talk TOO much about that which should be private.What stops THESE thugs Near to us From Popping up and Evicting You and Your Wife? (No Tabien Ban! No Tanot No Work Visa for The Coffe shop!That's Mine and I'm Taking it! Try going to the Police They'll just laugh!)PAD IS SICK BRAIN POISON!!!I wish You see that and Save Your Plight!

Wow. I wasn't aware of that- can anyone confirm this. I don't doubt it but this is an element that the media has not touched on- certainly not the English speaking media.

Go helterskelter ..... tell it like it is. My thai is good enough to follow most of what is said and my gf fills in the bits I miss. I can confirm that these ARE REAL COMMENTS actually beind said by the PAD leadership ( Chamlong excepted , he usually refrains from such gutter language )

So, how do you translate m*th3erf*^%er in Thai?

I'm also curious about how "F..king Kwai Farang Come to Thailand and Think they can Force us to elect leaders to suit their pillaging of Thai Economy"( Kwai= Buffalo =stupid)" is possible when murdered tourists families have to fight like hel_l to get a fair trial or even a decent investigation and their respective Embassies just about have their hands tied.

It is good news that you are taking an interest with the Thai language. Good luck with it. In the meantime its nice of you to make this post but how about answering the previous one I made first with regards to Panlop. Off now to Hua Hin....catch you later when I can find a cyber cafe.

[Gary A]

Samak can be the hero and preserve democracy. He MUST resign. It's just that simple. If he remains stubborn, democracy in Thailand is finished.

[animatic]

If he remains stubborn, democracy in Thailand is finished.

Which may be what certain elements are hoping for.

But not necessarily the certain elements being bandied about above.

Edited August 30, 2008 by animatic

[Tony Clifton]

It is also worth pointing out that Sondhi himself is only a puppet on a string. When Taksin made his remarks about having some very high people ' in his pocket ' it was felt by the ' old school ' that he had gone to far and was getting too big for his boots. They saw that if he were not removed he would become a more serious threat to the established order. But how do you remove a democratically elected PM with massive popular support and keep your hands clean at the same time ??? Clearly some dupe needed to be found to do the necessary dirty work. Who better than Sondhi, a media tycoon with an axe to grind and just aching for revenge. The deal is made and the stage is set. In the subsequent campaign Sondhi is accused of lese majeste and gets a slap on the wrist but is allowed to continue his work.

Then the coup. The coup leaders make a pigs ear of their illegal time in office and pull out a few weeds without getting at the roots. The weeds bloom again. Sondhi is let loose again. For the second time he is arrested for lese majeste remarks but is again immediatley released. Others are not so lucky . Darunee , who is twice refused bail by the courts because she might flee. The same courts that let Taksin go knowing he would flee ?????

So now with 2 counts of lese majeste against him he is allowed to continue what he has started....the extermination of TRT and its offspring PPP. Once this has been achieved he will become a paria amongst the very people who are embracing him now.

As for Samak, he probably knows he is doomed and is under intense pressure to quit. All part of Panlops plan. But what if Samak doesn't want to jump ??? Two can play at the martyr game. If he does nothing but hang on and refuse to quit, how long will the military sit on their hands before they get tired of waiting. If this happens, it will look bad in the eyes of the rest of the world and Samak could find himself an unlikely hero .

One was pushed by who? For what? Replaying Da Torpedo 's fiery speech with which he doesn't agree and to expose the kind of language used by Jakaprob, Nattawut and the other zombies who are probably the instigators of the very same Lèse Majesté charges.

I somewhat agree that replaying it may not the best solution but without the help of video, how exactly do you let the population learn about what kind of awful and disrespectful messages the PTV zombies and their hired help are sending out?

[Crushdepth]

list of charges against Taksin and Samak?

Sometime in the last month or two the Nation published a front page list of charges raised against the entire *cabinet*. If I remember rightly it was something like 30 cabinet members were up on charges...out of 36? What a team.

[Colonel_Mustard]

list of charges against Taksin and Samak?

Sometime in the last month or two the Nation published a front page list of charges raised against the entire *cabinet*. If I remember rightly it was something like 30 cabinet members were up on charges...out of 36? What a team.

Aren't 100% of PAD leaders up on charges?

[catmac]

Hmmmm...

You have a Protest leader, who owns a police station, which constantly airs free service announcements against Child Labour, against family violence, against sex slavery. A station that educates people about AIDS and other things

You have protest leaders who have been keeping large masses of people demonstrating peacefully. Protest leaders who know how to organize defensive moves to hold their ground at the government building

Lots of intelligent people supporting them....doctors, teachers, University Students, Pilots, etc....

while they are leading a peaceful, civil disobedience protest...

...and you call them bad

Then you got Samak and his corrupt government, who only got elected, because they bought the votes, who have less than 50% of voter support in Thailand (even after spending billions of Baht trying to buy it), who use force to deal with peaceful demonstrators, beating on old men and women, etc....

A government that tortures innocent hilltribe people to admit to crimes they didn't commit. An illegal government under Thai constitution, because of it's leaders being involved in vote buying..

and you they they are good????

Give me a break.

I openly support the PAD, so does my Thai wife and we are proud of it.

For 24 hour coverage of the demonstrations here is the ASTV link...

http://www.thaiDUMLOOK.tv/

I seriously doubt that you are what you claim to be.

Why do you find it necessary to post nonsense (now Samak is "torturing hill-tribe people.....") at regular intervals just to constantly post the link to ASTV?

Yae ASTV the opium of the Minorities!(Arethey Chewing Beetle Nut or something while Glued to that crap?)

KURTGRUEN: My THAI WIFE translates EVERTHING those Thugs are saying! WAKE UP and SMELL THE COFFEE MAN!!!! Sondhi and Loonie Gang ONLY Want YOUR MONEY! They Despise You and ALL of Farang who aint "CHIN"! They DON"T want Democracy.THAT is "YOUR FARANG POISON".

I have heard Him and Other PAD Leaders speak and These quotes are QUOTES!

"Motherf...ing farang Dogs". "F..king Kwai Farang Come to Thailand and Think they can Force us to elect leaders to suit their pillaging of Thai Economy"( Kwai= Buffalo =stupid)"Stupid Isan Dogs Who Voted for This and the Previous Govt""If SamaK(yes the Elect Prime minister of this nation) comes To the South WE will Kill him" Quotes From PAD ASTV and Sondhi.

KURTGRUEN: If You support Xenophobic KNOWN criminals who Hate You and ALL You stand for and Talk OPENLY about it,

They WILL take Your Business,Land,Home and Right to Be Here when they are ruling! You/ We are screwed on that day!You as many others love to be an open book and talk TOO much about that which should be private.What stops THESE thugs Near to us From Popping up and Evicting You and Your Wife? (No Tabien Ban! No Tanot No Work Visa for The Coffe shop!That's Mine and I'm Taking it! Try going to the Police They'll just laugh!)PAD IS SICK BRAIN POISON!!!I wish You see that and Save Your Plight!

Wow. I wasn't aware of that- can anyone confirm this. I don't doubt it but this is an element that the media has not touched on- certainly not the English speaking media.

Go helterskelter ..... tell it like it is. My thai is good enough to follow most of what is said and my gf fills in the bits I miss. I can confirm that these ARE REAL COMMENTS actually beind said by the PAD leadership ( Chamlong excepted , he usually refrains from such gutter language )

So, how do you translate m*th3erf*^%er in Thai?

I'm also curious about how "F..king Kwai Farang Come to Thailand and Think they can Force us to elect leaders to suit their pillaging of Thai Economy"( Kwai= Buffalo =stupid)" is possible when murdered tourists families have to fight like hel_l to get a fair trial or even a decent investigation and their respective Embassies just about have their hands tied.

Quite the little Smart Alec, aren't you?

Pity you can't give an honest answer to a simple question - How do you feel about Gen. Panlop's involvement in PAD?

You've been asked enough times, but wriggle out of answering in your usual smug, flippant way!

[animatic]

list of charges against Taksin and Samak?

Sometime in the last month or two the Nation published a front page list of charges raised against the entire *cabinet*. If I remember rightly it was something like 30 cabinet members were up on charges...out of 36? What a team.

A search of back issues of the Nation and the Bangkok Post will bring up lots of info.

For instance.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/rea...t+Samak+cabinet

or

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/rea...t+Samak+cabinet

You need not type in Thaksin, you can type Samak and see the depth of the connections.

Type in Thaksin and you fill reams of paper.

Edited August 30, 2008 by animatic

[Crushdepth]

list of charges against Taksin and Samak?

Sometime in the last month or two the Nation published a front page list of charges raised against the entire *cabinet*. If I remember rightly it was something like 30 cabinet members were up on charges...out of 36? What a team.

Aren't 100% of PAD leaders up on charges?

Do you really think its a valid comparison?

[ando]

Samak can be the hero and preserve democracy. He MUST resign. It's just that simple. If he remains stubborn, democracy in Thailand is finished.

On the contrary Gary, I believe that if Samak folds and resigns now, it will be the end of (the emerging) democracy in Thailand for a very long time.

My reasoning is that despite the arguements re vote buying, Samak and the PPP were elected to govern in a democratic system all be it with the help of coalition partners. And bear in mind that election was run under hostile conditions for Samak with the military in power and controlling the media.

Should the PAD which is not even a political party be able to force an elected government out of office with a crowd of protesters that amount to only a fraction of one percent of total voters it could well represent the death of the democratic process in Thailand.

Love him or hate him. Samak was democratically elected and should not be pushed out by a tiny minority group of protesters if democracy is to survive.

[Crushdepth]

Should the PAD which is not even a political party be able to force an elected government out of office with a crowd of protesters that amount to only a fraction of one percent of total voters it could well represent the death of the democratic process in Thailand.

This isn't an armed rebellion. Protests are a legitimate form of expression and part of the political process. If Samak steps down it will be because his own coalition has lost faith in his ability to lead. Same thing happens in every democratic country - you lose the numbers/become a liability to the party, you go.

[cmsally]

Samak can be the hero and preserve democracy. He MUST resign. It's just that simple. If he remains stubborn, democracy in Thailand is finished.

On the contrary Gary, I believe that if Samak folds and resigns now, it will be the end of (the emerging) democracy in Thailand for a very long time.

My reasoning is that despite the arguements re vote buying, Samak and the PPP were elected to govern in a democratic system all be it with the help of coalition partners. And bear in mind that election was run under hostile conditions for Samak with the military in power and controlling the media.

Should the PAD which is not even a political party be able to force an elected government out of office with a crowd of protesters that amount to only a fraction of one percent of total voters it could well represent the death of the democratic process in Thailand.

Love him or hate him. Samak was democratically elected and should not be pushed out by a tiny minority group of protesters if democracy is to survive.

I agree but quite frankly don't think he has a leg to stand on. I think he is fighting a losing battle, not only against the PAD.

The fact that Anupong wishes to remain neutral says an awful lot.

I think we will be left with some collective wolves dressed as sheep. The Democrats will probably wearing the sheep costumes.

[h90]

Samak can be the hero and preserve democracy. He MUST resign. It's just that simple. If he remains stubborn, democracy in Thailand is finished.

On the contrary Gary, I believe that if Samak folds and resigns now, it will be the end of (the emerging) democracy in Thailand for a very long time.

My reasoning is that despite the arguements re vote buying, Samak and the PPP were elected to govern in a democratic system all be it with the help of coalition partners. And bear in mind that election was run under hostile conditions for Samak with the military in power and controlling the media.

Should the PAD which is not even a political party be able to force an elected government out of office with a crowd of protesters that amount to only a fraction of one percent of total voters it could well represent the death of the democratic process in Thailand.

Love him or hate him. Samak was democratically elected and should not be pushed out by a tiny minority group of protesters if democracy is to survive.

you shouldn't dipite the arguments of vote buying. As with vote buying he was NOT DEMOCRATICALLY elected.

Thailand is not an emerging democracy, it is one which is going down the last years and PAD are the people who want to reinstall democracy. It is as the name tells an Alliance for Democracy. With different people with different ideas but the common target to bring back democracy.

[animatic]

Samak can be the hero and preserve democracy. He MUST resign. It's just that simple. If he remains stubborn, democracy in Thailand is finished.

On the contrary Gary, I believe that if Samak folds and resigns now, it will be the end of (the emerging) democracy in Thailand for a very long time.

My reasoning is that despite the arguements re vote buying, Samak and the PPP were elected to govern in a democratic system all be it with the help of coalition partners. And bear in mind that election was run under hostile conditions for Samak with the military in power and controlling the media.

Should the PAD which is not even a political party be able to force an elected government out of office with a crowd of protesters that amount to only a fraction of one percent of total voters it could well represent the death of the democratic process in Thailand.

Love him or hate him. Samak was democratically elected and should not be pushed out by a tiny minority group of protesters if democracy is to survive.

They have had going on 20 abrupt changes of government here.

This is a relatively normal occurance in thailand.

Yes 100% of PAD leaders are up on charges,

all laid by the Samak government, who are up on charges. touché

An indication of what PPP is up against is from the nation, taken with a grain of salt.

Referendum: A Bt2 bn stupid 'yes-or-no' question

By Suthichai Yoon

The Nation

Published on May 29, 2008

On the surface, Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej only wants to spend Bt2 billion to hold a "referendum" to find out whether the Thai people would say "yes" or "no" to the proposed constitutional amendments.

In fact, all he wants is a big "yes". But the bigger question is what's the "big yes" all about? You know and I know what he is really after. He won't publicly admit it. If he thinks we are all fools who would fall into the trap, then he isn't such a bright guy after all.

What Samak really wants is a political blank cheque. The gambit is incredibly simple: Wearing a democratic mask, you ask the people a stupid question to which there is only one answer and proceed to justify all the tricky manipulations you had drummed up before you cooked up the ploy in the first place.

The question that isn't a question at all is whether the current Constitution - or in fact, any constitution for that matter - could be rewritten to make it better serve the people. The real issue that has sparked the ongoing controversy that has prompted the PM to devise this new trap is the nation-wide suspicion that the ruling People Power Party (PPP) is trying to arm-twist the whole country into changing the constitutional rules to get themselves off the hook - and to absolve Thaksin Shinawatra, the ousted premier and his lieutenants, from all charges.

First, they tried to ram through a proposal to strike out Articles 237 and 309 with PPP's House majority. And when the public outcry became deafening, Samak beat a retreat, saying that he didn't quite agree with deleting Article 309, arguing that Thaksin was innocent enough to fight his own legal battle all the way to acquittal.

But soon, Samak discovered, to his own dismay, that he was a very small cog within the party. Instead of risking a life-threatening confrontation within the PPP, and at the same time taking on his growing number of critics, the prime minister chose to drag the whole country into this hopelessly superficial game called "referendum".

The scheme probably stemmed from his raw political instinct for survival rather than the result of any real in-depth strategic analysis. He soon found himself stuck in another dead-end. There is no legal tool with which to hold the referendum because organic law related to referenda has yet to be passed.

He immediately resorted to his raw political instinct again: No law? No problem. The premier will get the cabinet to issue an emergency decree to legalise this move. Of course, he immediately ran into another round of severe criticism: Emergency decrees are supposed to meet real "emergencies" such as security issues or national disasters. Has Samak turned the amendments to the charter a "national emergency" too? Without putting it in so many words, the premier obviously had decided that his own political survival must now become a matter of national obsession.

No matter how ludicrous his proposed "please-save-me" referendum may sound, the grand plan's objective is to go through the motion to claim a "public mandate" to tear up the current Constitution and put into place a version that would save the PPP from being dissolved and pave the way for Thaksin to make a "whitewashed", triumphant, guilt-free return to power.

Samak has feigned great surprise over why so many people are against his idea to spend 2 billion baht of tax-payers' money only to get a "big yes" so that he could embark on his great scheme to clear up his party's own wrongdoings and to dispose of all corruption charges against the previous government.

There is, of course, nothing wrong with a referendum as long as the right question(s) are put forward so that the public gets a chance to have a real say about real issues.

Therefore, if the referendum is to be held, the question isn't whether the Charter should be amended or not. Rather, every eligible Thai should be given a chance to answer a set of questions, including:

Do you think Articles 237 and 309 should be amended or not?

Ask the people some real and smart questions - and you get some real answers.

Let the real debate begin.

Share your views in my blog

You couple this with their track record and the army and police reshuffles,

and you can see why PAD decided move a bit before all this.

And why PAD doesn't take Samak's charges against them all that seriously.

Samak has had Lame Duck printed on his back for weeks.

[gregb]

Samak can be the hero and preserve democracy. He MUST resign. It's just that simple. If he remains stubborn, democracy in Thailand is finished.

On the contrary Gary, I believe that if Samak folds and resigns now, it will be the end of (the emerging) democracy in Thailand for a very long time.

My first opportunity to comment. I tend to agree that a resignation by Samak would not be wise under the circumstances. The PAD right now doesn't really have the law on its side, and right or wrong, an ideal solution would respect the rule of law. However, do keep in mind that the reason we are here is that the PAD does not trust the PPP to respect the laws of the land without changing them.

Thus, the PAD is not respecting the laws of the land either. The best way to diffuse this crisis and keep some semblance of order would be for Samak and the PPP government to remain, but to agree not to change any laws or push for constitutional amendments. Also, they should appoint an independent neutral commission to repatriate Thaksin and force him to stand for his crimes.

Anyone think that is actually going to happen? I don't.

Democracy isn't important. It's nothing more than a weasel word in the current show down. Rule of law is what matters, and that is what BOTH sides are ignoring. This will get bloody.

[animatic]

Should the PAD which is not even a political party be able to force an elected government out of office with a crowd of protesters that amount to only a fraction of one percent of total voters it could well represent the death of the democratic process in Thailand.

This isn't an armed rebellion. Protests are a legitimate form of expression and part of the political process. If Samak steps down it will be because his own coalition has lost faith in his ability to lead. Same thing happens in every democratic country - you lose the numbers/become a liability to the party, you go.

In 1995 I watched a 6 week strike in France run Alain Juppe PM from office.

It was a long strike and with some incidents of violence, but not much

different than here and now. Pretty close, except Juppe's government

was MUCH more HONEST. Not angels but not 80% under charges

and ALL able to read and understand the constitution.

More than can be said for Samak's cabinet it seems.

So the french held another vote and it moved on with Jospin.

Democracy is still happening in 'the french style' there ever since.

It still works and the actual riots there are MUCH worse than anything I have seen here.

We are at a similar juncture here.

There is a social divide and haves and have nots,

but the fall of ONE a government not doing it's job

doesn't automatically mean democracy is killed off.

Alain Juppe is now an advisor to the the current French president.

Democracy took a side step and kept going.

On the contrary here, if Samak and cabinet try to bull it through till Sept,

there WILL be blood spilled. Juppe had the sense to fall on his sword

for the good of the country. Meetings are a foot for a new coalition to

replace the existing one, this is the fastest and simplest change at the top.

And least risky.

If it doesn't happen now it would in a month or two anyway.

But with violence and blood shed before it happens. This MUST be avoided.

Edited August 30, 2008 by animatic

[blaze]

Samak can be the hero and preserve democracy. He MUST resign. It's just that simple. If he remains stubborn, democracy in Thailand is finished.

On the contrary Gary, I believe that if Samak folds and resigns now, it will be the end of (the emerging) democracy in Thailand for a very long time.

My reasoning is that despite the arguements re vote buying, Samak and the PPP were elected to govern in a democratic system all be it with the help of coalition partners. And bear in mind that election was run under hostile conditions for Samak with the military in power and controlling the media.

Should the PAD which is not even a political party be able to force an elected government out of office with a crowd of protesters that amount to only a fraction of one percent of total voters it could well represent the death of the democratic process in Thailand.

Love him or hate him. Samak was democratically elected and should not be pushed out by a tiny minority group of protesters if democracy is to survive.

you shouldn't dipite the arguments of vote buying. As with vote buying he was NOT DEMOCRATICALLY elected.

Thailand is not an emerging democracy, it is one which is going down the last years and PAD are the people who want to reinstall democracy. It is as the name tells an Alliance for Democracy. With different people with different ideas but the common target to bring back democracy.

Well I do dispute the arguement of vote buying. Even though it is a common theme among those who need to use something to rationalize their assertions that the government is illigitimate. The international team that monitored the elections did not find vote buying on nearly the scale some on this web think it occurred. And it certainly wasn't confined to the PPP.

You say 'reinstall' democracy- yet the acknowledged apex of vote buying occurred under Banharn- is that the democracy you wish to see 'resestablished?'

[fidelio]

Should the PAD which is not even a political party be able to force an elected government out of office with a crowd of protesters that amount to only a fraction of one percent of total voters it could well represent the death of the democratic process in Thailand.

This isn't an armed rebellion. Protests are a legitimate form of expression and part of the political process. If Samak steps down it will be because his own coalition has lost faith in his ability to lead. Same thing happens in every democratic country - you lose the numbers/become a liability to the party, you go.

In 1995 I watched a 6 week strike in France run Alain Juppe PM from office.

It was a long strike and with some incidents of violence, but not much

different than here and now. Pretty close, except Juppe's government

was MUCH more HONEST. Not angels but not 80% under charges

and ALL able to read and understand the constitution.

More than can be said for Samak's cabinet it seems.

So the french held another vote and it moved on with Jospin.

Democracy is still happening in 'the french style' there ever since.

It still works and the actual riots there are MUCH worse than anything I have seen here.

We are at a similar juncture here.

There is a social divide and haves and have nots,

but the fall of ONE a government not doing it's job

doesn't automatically mean democracy is killed off.

Alain Juppe is now an advisor to the the current French president.

Democracy took a side step and kept going.

The difference being that in France the army is under the control of the president and answers to no one else...

[animatic]

Agreed that IS the Thailand wild card.

It does seems the army are holding back this round, at least so far.

I think their fingers got singed on the flame last time,

they would rather let others more foolish take the heat this time.

And I will also note that the French President of that period

was under charges of election fraud from his time as Mayor of Paris before that.

Only being held at bay by his positions rules on not being brought to charge

on other things while in office. But he didn't retroactively try and install THAT set of rules

after entering office to get off the hook either.

Samak it trying that one.

Edited August 30, 2008 by animatic

[h90]

Samak can be the hero and preserve democracy. He MUST resign. It's just that simple. If he remains stubborn, democracy in Thailand is finished.

On the contrary Gary, I believe that if Samak folds and resigns now, it will be the end of (the emerging) democracy in Thailand for a very long time.

My reasoning is that despite the arguements re vote buying, Samak and the PPP were elected to govern in a democratic system all be it with the help of coalition partners. And bear in mind that election was run under hostile conditions for Samak with the military in power and controlling the media.

Should the PAD which is not even a political party be able to force an elected government out of office with a crowd of protesters that amount to only a fraction of one percent of total voters it could well represent the death of the democratic process in Thailand.

Love him or hate him. Samak was democratically elected and should not be pushed out by a tiny minority group of protesters if democracy is to survive.

you shouldn't dipite the arguments of vote buying. As with vote buying he was NOT DEMOCRATICALLY elected.

Thailand is not an emerging democracy, it is one which is going down the last years and PAD are the people who want to reinstall democracy. It is as the name tells an Alliance for Democracy. With different people with different ideas but the common target to bring back democracy.

Well I do dispute the arguement of vote buying. Even though it is a common theme among those who need to use something to rationalize their assertions that the government is illigitimate. The international team that monitored the elections did not find vote buying on nearly the scale some on this web think it occurred. And it certainly wasn't confined to the PPP.

You say 'reinstall' democracy- yet the acknowledged apex of vote buying occurred under Banharn- is that the democracy you wish to see 'resestablished?'

I am not sure, but I think it was SJ who again and again explained the 37 person international team which came a week before and monitored nothing....

Everyone in Thailand knows the scale. That makes the government elected , but NOT democratic elected. It turns the complete election to a joke.

[animatic]

Samak can be the hero and preserve democracy. He MUST resign. It's just that simple. If he remains stubborn, democracy in Thailand is finished.

On the contrary Gary, I believe that if Samak folds and resigns now, it will be the end of (the emerging) democracy in Thailand for a very long time.

My reasoning is that despite the arguements re vote buying, Samak and the PPP were elected to govern in a democratic system all be it with the help of coalition partners. And bear in mind that election was run under hostile conditions for Samak with the military in power and controlling the media.

Should the PAD which is not even a political party be able to force an elected government out of office with a crowd of protesters that amount to only a fraction of one percent of total voters it could well represent the death of the democratic process in Thailand.

Love him or hate him. Samak was democratically elected and should not be pushed out by a tiny minority group of protesters if democracy is to survive.

you shouldn't dipite the arguments of vote buying. As with vote buying he was NOT DEMOCRATICALLY elected.

Thailand is not an emerging democracy, it is one which is going down the last years and PAD are the people who want to reinstall democracy. It is as the name tells an Alliance for Democracy. With different people with different ideas but the common target to bring back democracy.

Well I do dispute the arguement of vote buying. Even though it is a common theme among those who need to use something to rationalize their assertions that the government is illigitimate. The international team that monitored the elections did not find vote buying on nearly the scale some on this web think it occurred. And it certainly wasn't confined to the PPP.

You say 'reinstall' democracy- yet the acknowledged apex of vote buying occurred under Banharn- is that the democracy you wish to see 'resestablished?'

I am not sure, but I think it was SJ who again and again explained the 37 person international team which came a week before and monitored nothing....

Everyone in Thailand knows the scale. That makes the government elected , but NOT democratic elected. It turns the complete election to a joke.

Only 37 people to monitor vote buying in Thailand. What a HUGE JOKE!

3,700 wouldn't have been enough, 37,000 would likely have seen enough, I suspect.

37 is barely enough to monitor Chaing mai alone

Edited August 30, 2008 by animatic

[blaze]

Samak can be the hero and preserve democracy. He MUST resign. It's just that simple. If he remains stubborn, democracy in Thailand is finished.

On the contrary Gary, I believe that if Samak folds and resigns now, it will be the end of (the emerging) democracy in Thailand for a very long time.

My reasoning is that despite the arguements re vote buying, Samak and the PPP were elected to govern in a democratic system all be it with the help of coalition partners. And bear in mind that election was run under hostile conditions for Samak with the military in power and controlling the media.

Should the PAD which is not even a political party be able to force an elected government out of office with a crowd of protesters that amount to only a fraction of one percent of total voters it could well represent the death of the democratic process in Thailand.

Love him or hate him. Samak was democratically elected and should not be pushed out by a tiny minority group of protesters if democracy is to survive.

you shouldn't dipite the arguments of vote buying. As with vote buying he was NOT DEMOCRATICALLY elected.

Thailand is not an emerging democracy, it is one which is going down the last years and PAD are the people who want to reinstall democracy. It is as the name tells an Alliance for Democracy. With different people with different ideas but the common target to bring back democracy.

Well I do dispute the arguement of vote buying. Even though it is a common theme among those who need to use something to rationalize their assertions that the government is illigitimate. The international team that monitored the elections did not find vote buying on nearly the scale some on this web think it occurred. And it certainly wasn't confined to the PPP.

You say 'reinstall' democracy- yet the acknowledged apex of vote buying occurred under Banharn- is that the democracy you wish to see 'resestablished?'

I am not sure, but I think it was SJ who again and again explained the 37 person international team which came a week before and monitored nothing....

Everyone in Thailand knows the scale. That makes the government elected , but NOT democratic elected. It turns the complete election to a joke.

After the invasion on Iraq which was permitted by the Americans on the basis that 'everyone knows' the Saddam had WMD- I'm a bit skeptical of 'folk knowledge'. But let me ask you this: who do you think would win an election in the north east if there was NO vote buying at all? I gather it would NOT be TRT/PPP. Who would they vote for- and why?

[Crushdepth]

The difference being that in France the army is under the control of the president and answers to no one else.

I'm not sure this is different - the Thai army ultimately answers to the Thai head of state (which is the King, not the Prime Minister).

[ando]

Should the PAD which is not even a political party be able to force an elected government out of office with a crowd of protesters that amount to only a fraction of one percent of total voters it could well represent the death of the democratic process in Thailand.

This isn't an armed rebellion. Protests are a legitimate form of expression and part of the political process. If Samak steps down it will be because his own coalition has lost faith in his ability to lead. Same thing happens in every democratic country - you lose the numbers/become a liability to the party, you go.

If Samak gets a vote of no confidence against him from his coalition partners he is out.

If the King says he should resign he is out.

If the army tells him he is out, then he is out.

But barring all of the above he is still in and the democratically elected leader of the nation.

Remember PAD doesn't want just Samak to resign but the whole PPP cabinet.

It seems Samak has the army on side, or at least not off side at the moment.

The coalition partners are getting scared but for the time being there is no overt push to oust Samak.

What comes out of Samaks audience with the King at 5pm tonight well may be the deciding point in this debacle. I am not overly optimistic of the outcome for Samak here but ThaiVisa protocol demands I do not expand on this point of veiw.

Samak will either come back from the meeting fighting or a beaten man.

Edited August 30, 2008 by ando

[ando]

The difference being that in France the army is under the control of the president and answers to no one else.

I'm not sure this is different - the Thai army ultimately answers to the Thai head of state (which is the King, not the Prime Minister).

As does the British Army.

[Samuian]

....

Should the PAD which is not even a political party be able to force an elected government out of office with a crowd of protesters that amount to only a fraction of one percent of total voters it could well represent the death of the democratic process in Thailand.

Right its not a party and the leaders once said they don't want to become one, but the PAD represents so far the people!

And voices their opinion, and anyone who whishes to air an opinion is welcome to do so!

Where is the "majority" of voters who "democratically" accepted bribes for their right to vote, why aren't they supporting their "democratically" elected government of do'gooder's ??

If one buys his votes, he buys paper, no voices, no people, that is what backfires so badly now on this government, instant karma, as buddhists they should have known better!, No?

[h90]

Samak can be the hero and preserve democracy. He MUST resign. It's just that simple. If he remains stubborn, democracy in Thailand is finished.

On the contrary Gary, I believe that if Samak folds and resigns now, it will be the end of (the emerging) democracy in Thailand for a very long time.

My reasoning is that despite the arguements re vote buying, Samak and the PPP were elected to govern in a democratic system all be it with the help of coalition partners. And bear in mind that election was run under hostile conditions for Samak with the military in power and controlling the media.

Should the PAD which is not even a political party be able to force an elected government out of office with a crowd of protesters that amount to only a fraction of one percent of total voters it could well represent the death of the democratic process in Thailand.

Love him or hate him. Samak was democratically elected and should not be pushed out by a tiny minority group of protesters if democracy is to survive.

you shouldn't dipite the arguments of vote buying. As with vote buying he was NOT DEMOCRATICALLY elected.

Thailand is not an emerging democracy, it is one which is going down the last years and PAD are the people who want to reinstall democracy. It is as the name tells an Alliance for Democracy. With different people with different ideas but the common target to bring back democracy.

Well I do dispute the arguement of vote buying. Even though it is a common theme among those who need to use something to rationalize their assertions that the government is illigitimate. The international team that monitored the elections did not find vote buying on nearly the scale some on this web think it occurred. And it certainly wasn't confined to the PPP.

You say 'reinstall' democracy- yet the acknowledged apex of vote buying occurred under Banharn- is that the democracy you wish to see 'resestablished?'

I am not sure, but I think it was SJ who again and again explained the 37 person international team which came a week before and monitored nothing....

Everyone in Thailand knows the scale. That makes the government elected , but NOT democratic elected. It turns the complete election to a joke.

After the invasion on Iraq which was permitted by the Americans on the basis that 'everyone knows' the Saddam had WMD- I'm a bit skeptical of 'folk knowledge'. But let me ask you this: who do you think would win an election in the north east if there was NO vote buying at all? I gather it would NOT be TRT/PPP. Who would they vote for- and why?

Well in Iraq it was common knowledge that there are none. All Europe told it day and night, Blix (who was in duty for checking it, told that there are none). Everyone outside US knew it, just in USA the media repeated Bushs lies day and night (similar to how PPP controls the media in Thailand).

[animatic]

Should the PAD which is not even a political party be able to force an elected government out of office with a crowd of protesters that amount to only a fraction of one percent of total voters it could well represent the death of the democratic process in Thailand.

This isn't an armed rebellion. Protests are a legitimate form of expression and part of the political process. If Samak steps down it will be because his own coalition has lost faith in his ability to lead. Same thing happens in every democratic country - you lose the numbers/become a liability to the party, you go.

If Samak gets a vote of no confidence against him from his coalition partners he is out.

If the King says he should resign he is out.

If the army tells him he is out, then he is out.

But barring all of the above he is still in and the democratically elected leader of the nation.

Remember PAD doesn't want just Samak to resign but the whole PPP cabinet.

It seems Samak has the army on side, or at least not off side at the moment.

The coalition partners are getting scared but for the time being there is no overt push to oust Samak.

What comes out of Samaks audience with the King at 5pm tonight well may be the deciding point in this debacle. I am not overly optimistic of the outcome for Samak here but ThaiVisa protocol demands I do not expand on this point of veiw.

Samak will either come back from the meeting fighting or a beaten man.

If the PM goes his cabinet goes to. Linked.

The coalition is waiting to hear as much of the country is.

Yes, I would not want to be digesting Kuhn Samak's dinner this evening.

I don't hate him, I just prefer he becomes a cooking show host again.

Edited August 30, 2008 by animatic

[geovalin]

The difference being that in France the army is under the control of the president and answers to no one else.

I'm not sure this is different - the Thai army ultimately answers to the Thai head of state (which is the King, not the Prime Minister).

As does the British Army.

This is VERY interesting because this is THE point.

Are you British? Do you mean than, eventually, the army will obey to this old Lady called Elisabeth and NOT to the PM called Brown. I'm French so I do not know.

I'm not shocked that, in France, the President be the chief of the armies because he's elected, he's not only the "son of", but I'd worry if I was British: if Granny got a sunburn she could decide to invade Lichtenstein and the UK army would comply?

[Thanh-BKK]

Hello

This is the first time i am writing a comment to this situation.

Many people complain about PAD trying to topple thge "democratically elected" government around Samak. Now, thing is, he was NOT "democratically" elected. Elected, yes. By the people, yes. But NOT "democratically", which would be when people vote for him because they like him or his political plans.

Nope. Samapk (respectively PPP respectively Thaksin who is behind them) PAID the people to vote for them. And for me, this is not "hearsay" - i was there when the PPP guys came 'round handing out 200 Baht to everyone promising to vote for them 5 days later. Plus the village headman (this happened in a small village outside Chiang Mai) made his announcement through the village P.A. system (loudspeaker towers) that "if you vote for PPP you will all have a better life". Surely, PPP had given him a considerable amount of money for this "mission".

Of course, almost the whole village voted for PPP, most of those people are farmers who couldn't be bothered by politics but 200 Baht feeds them for a week, THAT was what counted.

Now PAD's plan was to get rid of Thaksin for a number of reasons. Voila, with the coup, THAT got done, and PAD went silent. HOWEVER with this "democratic" election they got him right back! Silently in the background, but everyone knows that "PPP" is "TRT, Mark II". So they (PAD) got active again to get rid of them, essentially for a second time.

Already now, in anticipation of things to come, "TRT, Mark III" is founded and ready to become active. Thaksin's money is flowing, and if there is a new election, my bets are that either PPP (if still active) or the new "TRT, Mark III" will win THAT election, too. And again, 200 Baht will be paid for the farmers, and the loudspeakers will talk of the "better life to come for voters".

And again PAD will fight, and people on this board will complain about "how can they try to topple a democratically elected government".

Democratic, my @ss.

Best regards......

Thanh