Intermediate Thai

[Swelters]

There are a lot of pretty good computer programs for snappy bits of basic conversation (such as are sold in BTS stations) but what do you do when you know all that stuff but are still not good enough to follow TV or radio? Does anyone know of any recorded material that would challenge the intermediate learner? Ideally stories about everyday stuff with some fairly close parallel english translation that you can stop and repeat as you choose on a pc until you hear it right.

I suppose a person could go out and get a Thai friend to record something like Roald Dahl's stories which are in Thai translation but you'de think that this kind of thing would be out there already.

Thanks in advance for any tips.

Swelters

[Rikker]

I'd like more of this sort of thing, too. Radio and TV are good, but you can't go back and review. And YouTube is good, but there's no text to check if you don't understand something. Something like an audiobook would be quite useful to me.

Sadly, there's no general audiobook market in Thailand. Seems like I've heard of audiobooks for the blind somewhere, though.

In fact, I've recently been thinking about starting a podcast on my blog in which I'd simply read a short story or chapter from a longer book and post the mp3. It would be great practice for developing oral reading skills, and I'm sure I'd learn plenty from comments from listeners. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea.

Edited September 2, 2008 by Rikker

[desi]

I'm not intermediate, but since no one else has shown up... (edit, well, no one posted when I started typing this

Have you gone through all the Becker materials?

Practical Thai Conversation DVD vol. 1 by Benjawan Poomsan Becker

Practical Thai Conversation DVD Vol. 2

Speak Like a Thai CD Vol. 1

Speak Like a Thai CD Vol. 2

Speak Like a Thai CD Vol. 3

Speak Like a Thai CD Vol. 4

Speak Like a Thai CD Vol. 5

Thai for Advanced book and CDs by Benjawan Poomsan Becker

Since I don't work with Thais (and I'm here for the long run), I started recording what interests me. In the beginning I recorded straight from my Mac but the quality was awful. Then after doing a bit of research, I invested in a Blue Snowball USB Microphone.

I recently recorded select sentences from Thai Reference Grammar by James Higbie & Snea Thinsan. A young Thai typed in the sentences, my Teacher recorded them into Thai. To get them into my head, I'll use a SRS (Spaced Repetition System).

I've played around with a few SRS programs in the past months, but I'm undecided at the moment on which one to invest time in. It's a toss up between Anki, ProVoc and The Mnemosyne Project.

This week we'll record The Happiness of Kati by Jane Vejjajiva (English version). The Thai version is ความสุขของกะทิ by งามพรรณ เวชชาชีวะ. There's a movie out at the end of the year so that'll solidify what I've learned from the book and recordings.

All around Bangkok you'll find Thai bookstores with Thai / English. Two of the Thai publishers I know of are Nation Egmont and Nanmeebooks. They come in all levels - from kinder to Highschool. I grabbed a stack of them and I'll record the Thai so I can read along.

It's a bit of work, but like you, I haven't found a lot available so I've chosen this route. Then, when I'm decent enough, I'll get most of my Thai from tv, radio and language groups.

And yes, I do know it's illegal to put these recordings out in the public, so this is for my personal use only.

Edited September 2, 2008 by desi

[Rikker]

I have a number of early novels and books that are in the public domain, so I would draw from those if I were to post anything publicly.

However, I wonder if short passages or sample chapters wouldn't be covered under fair use, or exemptions for educational/academic use. If you record a passage and include commentary for educational purposes, that sounds legal to me.

Not to mention that since there's no audiobook market, posting sample chapters/sections does not detract from the copyright holders ability to profit from his work, nor preclude releasing professionally recorded full versions. It's free advertising, in other words. Still, though, public domain is the safest.

[desi]

I have a number of early novels and books that are in the public domain, so I would draw from those if I were to post anything publicly.

I only have what I've been able to buy around BK. I do have a children's book that is no longer being published though.

However, I wonder if short passages or sample chapters wouldn't be covered under fair use, or exemptions for educational/academic use. If you record a passage and include commentary for educational purposes, that sounds legal to me.

You are talking Bern, correct? Then yes, short passages are covered for educational purposes. But does that apply in Thailand? And what if you upset a Thai author?

Not to mention that since there's no audiobook market, posting sample chapters/sections does not detract from the copyright holders ability to profit from his work, nor preclude releasing professionally recorded full versions. It's free advertising, in other words. Still, though, public domain is the safest.

I agree totally that you are being logical. But there's logic. Then there's logic

If you are going to post it online, in Thailand, I believe the best way to go is to get permission (if you can) from the authors. Regardless of present laws. But that's just me and my interpretation of the possibilities. I'm sure you have thought this through and I've only been here a few years so I really don't know the realities.

The authors I've approached for various requests are usually appreciative of the contact. One was retired from writing, then after I approached her, is now known as an online article writer. A decent one at that.

[Rikker]

I'm afraid I've threadjacked the OP here. I'll go ahead and make my reply, though, and risk being a jerk.

Thai copyright law is, in many ways, more reasonable and lenient than American copyright law. (Sadly, the EU is this very minute being led by lobbyists down the same path, and ignoring the empirical evidence of the ill effects of copyright extension).

From an English translation of the Copyright Act of 2537 (1994):

---start of quote---

Part 6: Exceptions to Infringement of Copyright

32. An act against a copyright work under this Act of another person which does not conflict with normal exploitation of the copyright work by the owner of copyright and does not unreasonably prejudice the legitimate rights of the owner of copyright shall not be deemed an infringement of copyright.

Subject to the provision in the first paragraph, the following acts in relation to a copyright work shall not be deemed an infringement of copyright:

(1) research or study of the work which is not for profit;

...

(3) comment, criticism or introduction of the work with an acknowledgment of the ownership of copyright in such work;

...

33. A reasonable citation, quotation, copy, emulation or reference in part and from a copyright work under this Act with an acknowledgment of the ownership of copyright in such work shall not be deemed an infringement of copyright provided that the first paragraph of Section 32 is complied with.

--end of quote---

There's more to that, of course, but I've selected a few relevant clauses.

Of course, that doesn't mean someone isn't going to get mad at you anyway. What is "reasonable" is subjective. So it's a decision individual parties must make as to what they consider fair, and if they're willing to risk angering someone.

But copyrights go two ways. I have rights to fair use, just like the creator's copyright is his right. Society agrees to set legal limits so that creative works can be profited from, in order to engender creation of more creative works. The flip side of that coin is that those limitations are not universal, and they have an expiration date. After that, things must become public property, or else the "deal" that society makes with artists is broken. Which is where copyright has gone so wrong in the U.S., for example, with corporations extending copyright length to multiple human generations, grossly distorting the original intent behind copyright.

We'd very likely have more Mickey Mouse cartoons (i.e. more creative works), for example, if its copyright had been allowed to expire according to the original law it was created under, and the public were allowed to freely create derivative works, rather than having a single extremely wealthy corporation with strict control (i.e. less creative works)--a corporation which has pushed through more than one multi-decade copyright extension.

I don't subscribe to the shrinking violet, better-safe-than-sorry school. If I think it's fair, I'll exercise my right. And the owner of the copyright has a right to challenge what I believe to be fair use.

I'm not a renegade or anything. I believe in being careful but not unduly curtailing my own rights. If you can't tell, I have strong opinions on the topic.

It's interesting to note that every episode of virtually every primetime Thai soap opera and sitcom are available on YouTube in numbered ten-minute chunks. I'm not sure why this situation is allowed to persist, but it is.

[Rikker]

Let me get things back on topic: would there be interest in a podcast of public domain/fair use book readings?

I'm not native, but whatever I do will be free.

Or any other suggestions of listening resources for the OP?

Edited September 2, 2008 by Rikker

[desi]

Thanks for sharing. While you were typing that up, I was reading your blog...

...works firmly in the public domain under Thai copyright law (which protects books for 50 years after the death of the author, or 50 years from first publication for copyrights held by an organization)

As mentioned, I'm new here and truthfully, I don't really know what to think of Thailand and Thai laws. As a western designer working in SE Asia, I've stuck pretty close to the word of the law as far as copyright goes. Mostly because it's a good idea in my field. And partly to reign clients in from going crazy with another designer's work. I can't tell you how many times a client has requested a site exactly like one already in existence... and a slap on the wrist comes fairly quickly on the Internet.

I don't subscribe to the shrinking violet, better-safe-than-sorry school. If I think it's fair, I'll exercise my right. And the owner of the copyright has a right to challenge what I believe to be fair use.

I'm not a renegade or anything. I believe in being careful but not unduly curtailing my own rights. If you can't tell, I have strong opinions on the topic.

It's interesting to note that every episode of virtually every primetime Thai soap opera and sitcom are available on YouTube in numbered ten-minute chunks. I'm not sure why this situation is allowed to persist, but it is.

Strong opinions are just up my alley, so please don't mind me

It's opinions such as yours that will form mine down the road (when I get more comfortable living here that is). But for now, I'm just watching.

YouTube - a power all to it's own. Until they insult, that is...

And now, as you've already mentioned, I'll give this post back to the OP.

Ah, just the one more thing... I'm looking forward to listening to your podcasts...

[desi]

Let me get things back on topic: would there be interest in a podcast of public domain/fair use book readings?

You already have my vote (given while again posting at the same time). I just wanted to say that there are several people I converse with from other forums who would also be interested (I know because they are also looking for the same).

[mike_l]

Have you guys seen the VOA Thai website ? Many of the news articles have an associated MP3 file recording to listen to, and best of all of it's all in the public domain too.

e.g. http://www.voanews.com/thai/2008-09-01-voa3.cfm is a news article, and there's a link to the MP3 download on that page.

[Rikker]

Yeah, VOA is a good suggestion. Lots of mp3s to download. Been a while since I've listened myself. Thanks for the reminder.

Edit: For those who don't know, Voice of America is the U.S. federal government's broadcasting arm. They produce brief articles and interviews in many languages, along with mp3s files you can stream or download. According to U.S. copyright law, everything produced by the government is automatically public domain.

Edited September 2, 2008 by Rikker

[jdinasia]

There are a lot of pretty good computer programs for snappy bits of basic conversation (such as are sold in BTS stations) but what do you do when you know all that stuff but are still not good enough to follow TV or radio? Does anyone know of any recorded material that would challenge the intermediate learner? Ideally stories about everyday stuff with some fairly close parallel english translation that you can stop and repeat as you choose on a pc until you hear it right.

I suppose a person could go out and get a Thai friend to record something like Roald Dahl's stories which are in Thai translation but you'de think that this kind of thing would be out there already.

Thanks in advance for any tips.

Swelters

Start with the TV and follow what you can. News channels are good as the photos usually match the voices to help you. The people broadcasting the news are very very careful about pronunciation etc.

second choice would be the awful soapoperas or even discovery channel (you can switch to Eng if you get lost)

But if you are intermediate then you really should be able to understand most of the news etc

[Swelters]

OK, so far we are not coming up with anything solid, much to my surprise.

I have tried "Tom Sawyer", we made a recording of the first few pages from a published Thai translation but Twain is surprisingly tricky in his language and it was too difficult for me.

The children's books, Mahlee and all, are too much about monks and ducks and that sort of stuff for my needs.

How about a Thai movie with English subtitles that are fairly close to literal? Any suggestions? Somwthing along the lines of Miyazaki would be great but the original language shoud be Thai, not dubbed Thai which is awful as you know if you ride upcountry busses.

My wife has a DVD of a famous "standup comedian" who is really more of a dramatic storyteller, quite good, but unfortunately no written english translation.

We have a staff of Thai who are proficient at making good recordings in mp3, perhaps in paragraph length chunks, and I will volunteer their services and make the product available if anyone can provide some good stuff--stories of everyday life written in Thai with a fairly literal english translation.

The legal issues are the last of my worries, I'm not trying to profit from someone elses efforts, I just want to improve my comprehension.

Here is one thiong we did as an experiment but it attracted little interest and it was a lot of work to produce this kind of origianl stuff.. The sound files are at http://www.thailanguageschool.com/sounds/naang10.mp3

Naang's Accident

When five years already when I be student

I will go school with school bus as usual

but have some days that I must drive vehicle go school also myself

because I must help work at home

One day I drive vehicle go school also alone

and happen accident come up because I drive fast for to arrive school fast

before cause even here happen come up have vehicle one

run come from soi small small pass fron car me go very fast.

and I not can stop car can, I so hit with car person one hard.

Swelters

[desi]

I have tried "Tom Sawyer", we made a recording of the first few pages from a published Thai translation but Twain is surprisingly tricky in his language and it was too difficult for me.

The children's books, Mahlee and all, are too much about monks and ducks and that sort of stuff for my needs.

I'm a history buff, so when I went to track down both Thai and English versions of The Happiness of Kati, I also picked up the same for The Four Reigns.

Four Reigns by Kukrit Pramoj, Translated by Tulachandra

Kukrit Pramoj's longest book follows the lives and the families of minor courtiers from the absolute monarchy of the closing years of the last century to the Allied bombing raids on Bangkok in mid-1940's. Anyone interested in Thailand will find this an intriguing tale.

Monks for sure will be included, but I doubt they'd slip in ducks and stuff.

What about Roald Dahl? As mentioned, his books have been translated into Thai.

(although I'd prefer the translation going the other way around - Thai to English, not English to Thai - at this point of my understanding, it's not going to make much difference).

[Rikker]

I must LOL yet again.. you've linked to my collection of Roald Dahl books in Thai on LibraryThing, complete with my notes. Sadly, those books (along with a large chunk of my collection) are held against their will in cardboard prisons in the U.S.A. at the moment.

[desi]

Hah! It must be driving you crazy to have them over there. So, what's it going to take for you to get them out here? I have the same problem with books and such, but from the UK. It's a bugger what with the situation on planes these days. Until recently, I used to be able to get a lot of stuff back and forth.

In the hopes of finding copies of Roald Dahl books, I plan on heading over to second hand book stores here in BKK. Then I'll match them up with their Thai versions from Chula, or even Kikoman (excuse the name) at Paragon as they seem to have an excellent selection of Thai books.

[Rikker]

So, what's it going to take for you to get them out here?

With the airlines and the Incredible Shrinking Baggage Allowances act they keep doing, it will probably take me deciding that I'm here for good.

In the hopes of finding copies of Roald Dahl books, I plan on heading over to second hand book stores here in BKK. Then I'll match them up with their Thai versions from Chula, or even Kikoman (excuse the name) at Paragon as they seem to have an excellent selection of Thai books.

They're all published by Butterfly Books สำนักพิมพ์ผีเสื้อ. Just search "Dahl" and they'll all come up. (I just noticed their website has text samples of a page or few. Click the ทดลองอ่าน link on a specific books page. For example, here are Fantastic Mr. Fox and The BFG.)

If you can wait until October, go to the big book expo at Queen Sirikit Centre. All the publishers are there, and as I recall, Butterfly gives 15-20% off cover price.

Edited September 3, 2008 by Rikker

[desi]

Thanks. You are a gold mine of knowledge! I can wait until October, but it all depends when in Oct as I'll be in the US for half the month.

Shipping books: I already made up my mind to stay in Thailand (which is why I'm a wee bit cautious, and oh, so good - mostly). But due to the horrible allowances on planes and wanting to wait until I sell up in the UK, it'll have to be a container at some point. I do shove as many books as possible in my carry-on though. But, there's always NEW books to acquire, so, which ones to choose...

[Rikker]

According to their website, this year's book expo is October 11-23 (it keeps getting longer every year--almost two weeks now!).

There are two events, National Book Week Fair in April and Book Expo Thailand in October. They are, in fact, completely identical. Everything is in the same spot in the convention center each time. Thais tend to refer to both as งานสัปดาห์หนังสือ, short for งานสัปดาห์หนังสือแ ห่งชาติ 'National Book Week Fair'.

Probably my favorite event of the year (both times). I'm a study in lack of self-control for buying Thai books.

[desi]

According to their website, this year's book expo is October 11-23 (it keeps getting longer every year--almost two weeks now!).

Excellent. Very good timing! I'll drag my Thai teacher over with me so she can drool too.

There are two events, National Book Week Fair in April and Book Expo Thailand in October. They are, in fact, completely identical. Everything is in the same spot in the convention center each time. Thais tend to refer to both as งานสัปดาห์หนังสือ, short for งานสัปดาห์หนังสือแ ห่งชาติ 'National Book Week Fair'.

Probably my favorite event of the year (both times). I'm a study in lack of self-control for buying Thai books.

I'm afraid I have the same addiction when it comes to books. But what I really love about buying Thai books is the price. Books in English go to crazy heights out here (and ordering from amazon.com and .co.uk pushes prices to insane levels). Books in Thai are affordable. Yet one more reason to learn to read Thai!