State Of Emergency Announced In Bangkok

[catmac]

Does any body know if the students are gathering for this march in BKK or has it been washed out?

Here is your answer, from the Post. I didnt' see much else on it. The article is longer, I'm only quoting the first few lines...

(BangkokPost.com) - About a thousand school and university students paraded to the Democracy Monument in Bangkok on Saturday evening. They called on more youths to be politically active.

A group of students from 80 educational institutes under the name “Young PAD (People’s Alliance for Democracy)” marched to the Democracy Monument to voice their political views.

Key members of the group told their young supporters to only listen to their orders and gather in peace, while guard volunteers were providing security for them.

That rather gives the game away.....I make that just over 12 students from each institution.

I posted before about the unique feature of the PAD demo, i.e. mainly well-to-do, middle class people at the demos, supported and financed by the really well-off. Backed up by a very large contingent of the rural poor from the South, enjoying a few days holiday with free food and a very generous (to them!) cash bounty. Noticeable by their very absence are the massed ranks of students, traditionally the vanguard of any demonstration. What happened indeed to all those 200,000 state employees who were going to plunge the Country into darkness and chaos?

So, no students, no workers! Does that not ring a bell somewhere? Not suprising as I've never heard of students and workers fighting to abolish the right to vote and to install an appointed dictatorship in partnership with the military!

[ubonjoe]

POLITICAL CRISIS

Students divided 0ver PAD protest

By The Sunday Nation

Published on September 7, 2008

Some have serious reservations about 'new politics' proposal

University students are split over whether to throw their support behind the anti-government People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD).

One group said it would boycott classes next week in a show of support for the PAD, while another is against the PAD, arguing its proposal for "new politics" is undemocratic.

According to the PAD proposal, only 30 per cent of MPs should be elected and the rest appointed from professional groups.

Yesterday, a new group of college students calling itself Yaowachon Koo Chart (Young PAD Group) said some 80 to 100 students from 80 universities throughout the Kingdom would not report to classes from Tuesday until Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej resigned.

"We're not following a trend in siding with the PAD," Kulthip Karn-samrit, a leader of the group, said. "But we want to be with the right side."

At the opposite pole is the Students' Federation of Thailand, the King-dom's largest umbrella group of students from 39 institutions and with a long history of democratic struggle. It rules out support for the PAD because its "new politics" theory - where 70 per cent of MPs will be appointed - is undemocratic.

"We disagree with the PAD and the crux of it is with the [new politics] issue. The PAD's demand for the resignation of the PM or for the dissolution of the House is, however, within the democratic framework," Artef Sohko, its secretary-general, told The Sunday Nation.

Artef said those students wanting to support or join the PAD could do so but he urged students to think deeply about the implication of the PAD's proposal.

He added that a majority of university students were unsure how to resolve the political stalemate.

The SFT, which will hold a news conference at Thammasat University today, is also opposed to the state of emergency, but it wants the nine PAD leaders to report to the police to hear government charges.

Elsewhere, a lecturer of medicine at Chulalongkorn University issued a statement calling on Samak to resign.

Tul Sitthisomwon demanded that the state-run NBT TV station stops being a a mouthpiece for the government.

Meanwhile, students have been gathering signatures at Thammasat University's Rangsit campus to seek impeachment of the premier. They had collected 1,000 in four hours.

Ramkhamhaeng University students will visit National Police Head-quarters today to see if there's any progress in the shooting case against two of their colleagues. They vow to lay a wreath if there's no progress.

Yesterday evening, about 1,000 college students gathered near Makkhawan Bridge, demanding that Samak step down. The so-called Young PAD Group defied the emergency rule imposed by the government which bars a political gathering of more than five persons.

[hammered]

Democrat blames PPP minister for clashes

A Democrat Party member said yesterday that a minister and People Power Party (PPP) MP was behind the recent clashes between pro- and anti-government demonstrators.

Chonburi MP Sorawuth Noengjamnong said that he and fellow party members had asked House Speaker Chai Chidchob to name this minister, who he said had made phone calls to assemble a crowd at Bangkok's Sanam Luang.

The minister, who he said was from Buriram, had apparently asked three other MPs to each mobilise at least 2,000 villagers to join the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship (DAAD) protest.

A per-capita payment was offered for a protest to last 15 days from last Tuesday, with two men, identified only as "Joe" and "Oun", as coordinators, Sorawuth said. However, payment was withheld as only 1,600 people showed up, he added.

Declining to reveal the "confidential" details, Sorawuth insisted Army intelligence had the same information and said his group also had evidence that three Samut Prakan MPs and one Ayutthaya MP had spoken on stage at the DAAD protest at Government House.

Meanwhile, Thepthai Senpong, assistant secretary-general of the Democrat Party, linked Tuesday's planned Cabinet meeting in Udon Thani to recent political activity upcountry by 111 administrative members of the defunct Thai Rak Thai party.

He suggested it was a move by Prime Minister Samak Sundarevej to whip up support and sound out provincial opinion as his popularity in the capital plunged.

People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) supporters in Udon Thani yesterday called for cancellation of the meeting. Core member Charoen Mookhajornphan said Samak lacked the legitimacy to run the country and the PAD would mobilise against him.

PAD opponent Kwanchai Praipana, leader of the Udon Thai Patriots Club, quickly responded by saying that if the PAD disrupted the Cabinet meeting his group would hit back in revenge for the man who had died in the Bangkok riot.

Justice Minister Sompong Amornwiwat yesterday commented that a group "to protect democracy from its destroyers" set up by PPP spokesman Kudeb Saikrajang and other party members did not represent the party's view as a whole. The group is scheduled to make speeches in Nonthaburi and Nakhon Ratchasima.

Sompong discounted the rumour that northern and northeastern PPP MPs were pressuring Samak to resign, saying discussion was confined to the best way to resolve the situation and what the premier should do next.

- The Nation / 2008-09-07

The names have been circulating for days although no doubt a quick billion dollar law suit awaits anyone who utters them. Enouhg to say there are enough hints here to work them out. I didnt here the bit about no payment being made though!

[hammered]

POLITICAL CRISIS

Students divided 0ver PAD protest

By The Sunday Nation

Published on September 7, 2008

Some have serious reservations about 'new politics' proposal

University students are split over whether to throw their support behind the anti-government People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD).

One group said it would boycott classes next week in a show of support for the PAD, while another is against the PAD, arguing its proposal for "new politics" is undemocratic.

According to the PAD proposal, only 30 per cent of MPs should be elected and the rest appointed from professional groups.

Yesterday, a new group of college students calling itself Yaowachon Koo Chart (Young PAD Group) said some 80 to 100 students from 80 universities throughout the Kingdom would not report to classes from Tuesday until Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej resigned.

"We're not following a trend in siding with the PAD," Kulthip Karn-samrit, a leader of the group, said. "But we want to be with the right side."

At the opposite pole is the Students' Federation of Thailand, the King-dom's largest umbrella group of students from 39 institutions and with a long history of democratic struggle. It rules out support for the PAD because its "new politics" theory - where 70 per cent of MPs will be appointed - is undemocratic.

"We disagree with the PAD and the crux of it is with the [new politics] issue. The PAD's demand for the resignation of the PM or for the dissolution of the House is, however, within the democratic framework," Artef Sohko, its secretary-general, told The Sunday Nation.

Artef said those students wanting to support or join the PAD could do so but he urged students to think deeply about the implication of the PAD's proposal.

He added that a majority of university students were unsure how to resolve the political stalemate.

The SFT, which will hold a news conference at Thammasat University today, is also opposed to the state of emergency, but it wants the nine PAD leaders to report to the police to hear government charges.

Elsewhere, a lecturer of medicine at Chulalongkorn University issued a statement calling on Samak to resign.

Tul Sitthisomwon demanded that the state-run NBT TV station stops being a a mouthpiece for the government.

Meanwhile, students have been gathering signatures at Thammasat University's Rangsit campus to seek impeachment of the premier. They had collected 1,000 in four hours.

Ramkhamhaeng University students will visit National Police Head-quarters today to see if there's any progress in the shooting case against two of their colleagues. They vow to lay a wreath if there's no progress.

Yesterday evening, about 1,000 college students gathered near Makkhawan Bridge, demanding that Samak step down. The so-called Young PAD Group defied the emergency rule imposed by the government which bars a political gathering of more than five persons.

SFT seem to have a reasonable idea imho. Samak resign but dont support the 30-70.

[younghusband]

SFT seem to have a reasonable idea imho. Samak resign but dont support the 30-70.

Sorry Hammered that just isn't good enough.Though the ideological comparisons don't really work in a way you are falling into the Mensheviks and Kerensky's trap in 1917 "No enemies to the left".The Bolsheviks turned out to be more disgusting and murderous than the Tsarist regime.Until decent people like you start addressing the repulsive and dangerous nature of the PAD leadership proposals for compromise are weakened.

As the Economist put it this week "Standing up for democracy sometimes entails standing up for some unappealing democrats....(Samak's) Government is deeply flawed.But it would be wrong and dangerous if the authoritarian rabble who have seized Government House in Bangkok forced it out of office.

Some in the crowds at PAD rallies are liberals,appalled at abuses of power (by Thaksin and Samak) but-

Money Quote: The PAD's leaders however are neither liberals nor democrats.A gruesome bunch of reactionary businessmen,generals and aristocrats, they demand not fresh elections,which they would lose, but "new politics" -in fact a return to old fashioned authoritarian rule with a mostly appointed parliament and powers for the army to step in when it chooses"

The Economist does envisage a possible compromise with Samak stepping down but the quid pro quo (I am summarising) would be the dismantling of the PAD agenda in total and accepting the supremacy of the Thai people.

My own view is that unless there a complete climb down by the PAD leadership, there is a very strong case for Samak to tough it out.

[hammered]

SFT seem to have a reasonable idea imho. Samak resign but dont support the 30-70.

Sorry Hammered that just isn't good enough.Though the ideological comparisons don't really work in a way you are falling into the Mensheviks and Kerensky's trap in 1917 "No enemies to the left".The Bolsheviks turned out to be more disgusting and murderous than the Tsarist regime.Until decent people like you start addressing the repulsive and dangerous nature of the PAD leadership proposals for compromise are weakened.

As the Economist put it this week "Standing up for democracy sometimes entails standing up for some unappealing democrats....(Samak's) Government is deeply flawed.But it would be wrong and dangerous if the authoritarian rabble who have seized Government House in Bangkok forced it out of office.

Some in the crowds at PAD rallies are liberals,appalled at abuses of power (by Thaksin and Samak) but-

Money Quote: The PAD's leaders however are neither liberals nor democrats.A gruesome bunch of reactionary businessmen,generals and aristocrats, they demand not fresh elections,which they would lose, but "new politics" -in fact a return to old fashioned authoritarian rule with a mostly appointed parliament and powers for the army to step in when it chooses"

The Economist does envisage a possible compromise with Samak stepping down but the quid pro quo (I am summarising) would be the dismantling of the PAD agenda in total and accepting the supremacy of the Thai people.

My own view is that unless there a complete climb down by the PAD leadership, there is a very strong case for Samak to tough it out.

YH I am not proposing forcing the PPP from office. They recently won an election and are the parliamentary majority. I have no problem with the PM being changed (obviously to another PPP chosen one) in order for the country to move on. PMs in democratic parlaimentary systems are changed reasonably regularly outside elections. That is the way the system works. It is not undemocratic. If the PPP want to have an election they have that choice too.

The place for the PAD leadership to be dealt with is the courts.

Part of the problem this country faces is that the PAD have a lot of silent support among ordinary people. They are a big minority. The trick is how do you get through this and keep these people who I would guess mostly support democracy and OMOV on board as well. By forcing a them or us as Samak suggests you leave them on the outside. A cleverer poltician would not have allowed this situation to occur. That is really why to my mind Samak should be replaced, which does not mean the whole PPP is overthrown (obviously in parliament they would remain with almost a majority and in Thailand's system parliament is supreme). It is imho still possible, indeed democratically desirable, for the PPP to continue governing but quite reasonable for it to happen with a change of PM. Obviously change of PM would have to go along with surrender of PAD leaders to the courts and a move out from GH. I dont think even among PAD backers there is much support for 30-70 or whatever the flavour of the day is right now and that the PAD imho should abandon the idea. Why not go for proportional representation if they want to make it a fairer system?

If the only proposed alternative to at least some compromise is them or us then that will inevitably have a very dark ending and nobody will win.

Have a look at Lynch's FEER piece for an alternative to the Economist line, by the way.

[cmsally]

The last scenario we need is for PM to resign, PAD to take it as a massive victory for them and then to change their demands. The question is, does PAD have a step by step plan, the removal of Samak being just another notch in the ladder. I can't see them disbanding easily. With every success the taste and lure of power just gets stronger.

What is interesting is that a substantial number of my Thai friends call the PAD, a bunch of communists (these are educated and knowledgeable people).

Their main stance being the group being someone that wants to do away with the system as it stands.

[hammered]

Chart Thai leader Banharn Silpa-archa warns the current political situation is extreme fragile and suggests that dissolving the House is possibly the best solution for the current crisis.

Banharn warns that the current political situation is extremely fragile and similiar to the events leading up to the Black May incident. He believes the appointment of the Senate speaker as a mediator between the government and the PAD is a good start but would only produce tangible results if both sides make compromises.

In addition, the Chart Thai leader believes the best way out is to dissolve the House and hold a new election.

From TOC

The eel changes his mind from a few days ago?

[Siripon]

The budget bill has now passed.

[younghusband]

SFT seem to have a reasonable idea imho. Samak resign but dont support the 30-70.

Sorry Hammered that just isn't good enough.Though the ideological comparisons don't really work in a way you are falling into the Mensheviks and Kerensky's trap in 1917 "No enemies to the left".The Bolsheviks turned out to be more disgusting and murderous than the Tsarist regime.Until decent people like you start addressing the repulsive and dangerous nature of the PAD leadership proposals for compromise are weakened.

As the Economist put it this week "Standing up for democracy sometimes entails standing up for some unappealing democrats....(Samak's) Government is deeply flawed.But it would be wrong and dangerous if the authoritarian rabble who have seized Government House in Bangkok forced it out of office.

Some in the crowds at PAD rallies are liberals,appalled at abuses of power (by Thaksin and Samak) but-

Money Quote: The PAD's leaders however are neither liberals nor democrats.A gruesome bunch of reactionary businessmen,generals and aristocrats, they demand not fresh elections,which they would lose, but "new politics" -in fact a return to old fashioned authoritarian rule with a mostly appointed parliament and powers for the army to step in when it chooses"

The Economist does envisage a possible compromise with Samak stepping down but the quid pro quo (I am summarising) would be the dismantling of the PAD agenda in total and accepting the supremacy of the Thai people.

My own view is that unless there a complete climb down by the PAD leadership, there is a very strong case for Samak to tough it out.

YH I am not proposing forcing the PPP from office. They recently won an election and are the parliamentary majority. I have no problem with the PM being changed (obviously to another PPP chosen one) in order for the country to move on. PMs in democratic parlaimentary systems are changed reasonably regularly outside elections. That is the way the system works. It is not undemocratic. If the PPP want to have an election they have that choice too.

The place for the PAD leadership to be dealt with is the courts.

Part of the problem this country faces is that the PAD have a lot of silent support among ordinary people. They are a big minority. The trick is how do you get through this and keep these people who I would guess mostly support democracy and OMOV on board as well. By forcing a them or us as Samak suggests you leave them on the outside. A cleverer poltician would not have allowed this situation to occur. That is really why to my mind Samak should be replaced, which does not mean the whole PPP is overthrown (obviously in parliament they would remain with almost a majority and in Thailand's system parliament is supreme). It is imho still possible, indeed democratically desirable, for the PPP to continue governing but quite reasonable for it to happen with a change of PM. Obviously change of PM would have to go along with surrender of PAD leaders to the courts and a move out from GH. I dont think even among PAD backers there is much support for 30-70 or whatever the flavour of the day is right now and that the PAD imho should abandon the idea. Why not go for proportional representation if they want to make it a fairer system?

If the only proposed alternative to at least some compromise is them or us then that will inevitably have a very dark ending and nobody will win.

Have a look at Lynch's FEER piece for an alternative to the Economist line, by the way.

I agree no problem in a PM being replaced but only if his party or coalition partners force him out.But Samak is right to resist being forced out by an unrepresentative mob (I incidentally question whether PAD has the undercurrent of support among orsinary people you suggest:all the evidence points the other way as a new election would clearly demonstrate).

There is I suppose a case for Samak to resign on the basis that the security forces are disobeying his orders.Even in liberal Western democracies a rabble like the mob at Government House would have been cleared long ago.It's not in his character to give in easily and there is even something to admire in his political courage.

I saw the FEER piece and found it curiously thin. Lynch is a China specialist and perhaps that explains it.In terms of global impact the Economist will of course have by far the greater impact, being required reading by the establishment in both the US and the UK.Internationally PAD has not only lost its case but is seen as an ugly and sinister force.It is quite evident that the better educated and upper middle class element is already deserting in droves.

I agree some sort of compromise is necessary.You say the place for the PAD leadership to be dealt with in the courts, presumably because of the arrest warrants against them?Notwithstanding the scandal of the security forces not enforcing the arrests I am not so exercised about this.What I would like to see is a more serious self examination by the privileged urban sector as to why such a loathsome PAD leadership attracted so much support initially.The Pavlovian dog response is of course the need to exorcise the Thaksin demon but what about the more worrying undemocratic and self serving undercurrents?

[kurtgruen]

Good Morning everyone!

Glad there was no violence last night.

The way that I still see it, is that the PAD had no choice, if government corruption was to be dealt a major blow...

First you have the PPP buying votes, Thaksin style, pretty much right out in the open, during the last election,knowing fully well that this was illegal and could lead to being disolved as a party. This of course didn't stop them, because it was the only way for them to get into power in the first place. They figured they could just change the laws, once they got into power and sweep all the vote buying under the carpet. (Or maybe they were that stupid to think they wouldn't get caught, but I want to give them a little bit of credit and assume that they just planned on changing the laws and pardon themselves for the crimes)

Then, after being held accountable by the Elections Commission and other opposing interests, they try to change the Constitution (without a Referendum), just to save their butts. (Wanting in effect to make vote buying more or less legal again. Not really legal, but without political consequence)

Next, the PAD steps up it's Protests and asks them to resign (by taking over Government house, etc.)

After that Samak sends in the Police to disburse them, but the closest thing they come to is breaking down Gate 5 for a while. The Protesters remain.

Next, Samak tells his Police only to carry shields and no Batons or other weapons.

Next, the PPP mobilizes Pro Government Demonstrators (by paying a lot of them and by PPP party members giving pep talk speeches). They truck them down to Bangkok, let them get drunk and riled up and then the police, together with the Pro-Government Demonstrators marched towards the PAD Rally site, armed with machetties, clubs and other weapons.

There, there is a little, well coordinated "ballet" of the Police line stepping aside, while demonstators freely rush past them, weapons in hand.

Then, Pro Government and PAD clash, one person gets killed, somewhere around 43 insured, which gives Samak the excuse and power to have his STATE OF EMERGENCY (which this forum is about, for those of you who missed it).

Freshly armed with the SOE, Samak tells the Army Chief to remove the demonstratrors, but the army chief tells him that he will not use the army against the people and that he wants this resolved peacefully, by other means.

Then after a throwing a few temper tantrums, Samak sees another way to maybe save the day and most of all the life of his party. He announced a referendum. A smart move, because now, when he finally gets forced to step down, he can claim that he tried to resolve this by giving the people a voice in it. The referendum of course, he fully well knows will take a long time to organize, so the government Propaganda machine would have a long time to cloud out all the main issues with more smoke and mirror tricks.

Now fact is, the the Election Commission ruled that the PPP must be disolved, because of the vote buying activities of their executive. This ruling is now passed on to the Supreme court, who will most likely enforce it. Again, though, it will take time. Fast tracking the Supreme Court ruling would be a great way to resolve this situation quickly. In which case, PPP will probably get disolved, a new election will be called, the PPP will run under it's new name Phua Something, I forget the name.

If the PPP gets disolved, they could do the unmentionable...they could try to compete without vote buying. Maybe we could actually have an election without any vote buying and see what happens. Not sure how to stop vote buying...

...maybe by having Scrutineers of every party present at every polling station, plus international observers. Not perfect, but a good start in trying to ensure fair elections, I think.

As long as there is blatant corruption in government, there will always be opposition to it, as there should be.

The PAD show the people, that a corrupt government can be removed by the masses.

Now, I don't expect everyone to support the PAD, but I would expect that most people would want to get rid of this current, corrupt government. (Unless they don't have a problem with government corruption)

Bottom line is, you've got to get rid of this corrupt government first! That should be in the forefront of people's minds. Everything else it only smoke and mirrors.

[ando]

Does any body know if the students are gathering for this march in BKK or has it been washed out?

Here is your answer, from the Post. I didnt' see much else on it. The article is longer, I'm only quoting the first few lines...

(BangkokPost.com) - About a thousand school and university students paraded to the Democracy Monument in Bangkok on Saturday evening. They called on more youths to be politically active.

A group of students from 80 educational institutes under the name “Young PAD (People’s Alliance for Democracy)” marched to the Democracy Monument to voice their political views.

Key members of the group told their young supporters to only listen to their orders and gather in peace, while guard volunteers were providing security for them.

That rather gives the game away.....I make that just over 12 students from each institution.

I posted before about the unique feature of the PAD demo, i.e. mainly well-to-do, middle class people at the demos, supported and financed by the really well-off. Backed up by a very large contingent of the rural poor from the South, enjoying a few days holiday with free food and a very generous (to them!) cash bounty. Noticeable by their very absence are the massed ranks of students, traditionally the vanguard of any demonstration. What happened indeed to all those 200,000 state employees who were going to plunge the Country into darkness and chaos?

So, no students, no workers! Does that not ring a bell somewhere? Not suprising as I've never heard of students and workers fighting to abolish the right to vote and to install an appointed dictatorship in partnership with the military!

As far as I am aware no workers have gone on "strike", rather they have taken two days sick or other leave with pay. Hardly any great sacrifice for the cause.

Their absence from the PAD rally is therefore not surprising. One has to wonder who is pulling the strings in the union movement and if there would have been any industrial action at all if a "real strike" (no pay) was called for and put to a vote by union members.

The whole industrial campaign smells manipulation of the union by its officials and begs the question of illicit payment to said union officials for their services.

Edited September 7, 2008 by ando

[Tony Clifton]

Just saw that Al Jazzera interview with Jakaprob and a rep from the Democrat party again today, Jakaprob clearly mentions ''invisible hands and sacred power''

He sure loves skating on thin ice, and he already fell through once

He blames the PAD for preventing PPP to perform right from the start.

We`ll surely get it on Youtube soon, the program was East 101.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Tony Clifton

[sriracha john]

A deja vu situation for change....

It'll be interesting to see if he can make his speech before an arrest warrant is re-issued for the PM....

PM Samak to attend UN General Assembly in New York

BANGKOK, Sept 7 (TNA) -- Thailand's embattled Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej said Sunday he will attend the United Nations General Assembly later this month and will take the opportunity to explain to UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and heads of state that his government is "still able to control the situation".

In his weekly TV and radio address, Samak said he will address the UN General Assembly on September 25, the same day that the Appeals Court here would pass its ruling on a libel case against him.

Samak said he has written the court saying that he cannot attend the hearing because he must attend the world body's meeting. His letter will be submitted to the court on Monday.

The outspoken prime minister said he is not concerned that the military might seize power during his upcoming absence from the country.

Thailand's military staged a bloodless coup against Samak's predecessor Thaksin Shinawatra on Sept. 19, 2006, while the then prime minister was in New York about to address the UN General Assembly.

Ex-premier Thaksin and his wife missed mandatory court appearances in Bangkok and are now in Britain, where they have applied for political asylum.

Samak said he must attend the General Assembly to inform the world's people that the political turmoil in Thailand now lies within Government House.

Anti-government protesters (the People's Alliance for Democracy) seized Government House on August 26 and are demanding that Samak and his entire cabinet resign unconditionally.

"The world is watching (Thailand)," said Samak, adding that he and the Army Chief had already told foreign envoys and military attaches posted to Bangkok that there will be no more coup d'etats.

The diplomats have said that coups without reason are totally unacceptable, he added.

[younghusband]

He sure loves skating on thin ice, and he already fell through once

Seems like Jakrapop isn't the only one with a taste for skating on thin ice

[pumpuiman]

I can not believe that people support this.

The PAD's leaders however are neither liberals nor democrats.A gruesome bunch of reactionary businessmen,generals and aristocrats, they demand not fresh elections,which they would lose, but "new politics" -in fact a return to old fashioned authoritarian rule with a mostly appointed parliament and powers for the army to step in when it chooses"

A solution to corruption in Thai politics is needed.......but backing the PAD's agenda is not the answer.....OBVIOUSLY.

[sriracha john]

"The world is watching (Thailand)," said Samak

and this is what they see...

Edited September 7, 2008 by sriracha john

[kurtgruen]

I can not believe that people support this.

The PAD's leaders however are neither liberals nor democrats.A gruesome bunch of reactionary businessmen,generals and aristocrats, they demand not fresh elections,which they would lose, but "new politics" -in fact a return to old fashioned authoritarian rule with a mostly appointed parliament and powers for the army to step in when it chooses"

A solution to corruption in Thai politics is needed.......but backing the PAD's agenda is not the answer.....OBVIOUSLY.

Only if you take the top quote as a fact, which I don't.

I see students, Union workers and Union officials, the middle class, the poor and just a lot of average citizens protesting. Plus a lot of academics. Until this corrupt government gets disolved, I am with the PAD and these Protesters on this.

[kurtgruen]

"The world is watching (Thailand)," said Samak

and this is what they see...

Like I said before... Too much Rice - Not enough Protein

[sriracha john]

COMMENTARY

The prime minister's cancelled agenda

Although PM Samak claims he came to office through democratic means, he remains trapped by his own past and a hidden agenda. In fact, we could leave out the "hidden" part, because in a bid to garner votes the PM said it loud and clear when he campaigned prior to the general election as Thaksin Shinawatra's nominee. Since the former PM now faces quite a few corruption charges that he has never been able to explain satisfactorily to the public, his nominee can hardly hope for politics as usual. Thaksin and his family face numerous lawsuits which are now in the court system. After his wife was found guilty in the Ratchadapisek land case, the couple jumped bail and took refuge in England. Despite Thaksin's absence, the controversies around him and his family are far from settled, and the PAD has not given up its mission of rooting up the last remnants of his administration. The goal of the PAD is not to seize the ruling power; it just wants to express the demand for a government which is transparent, and which has an agenda to advance the fortunes and democratic aspirations of the people. The PAD wants a government that is honest and clean. It has made clear that no matter how competent and advanced thinking a government may be, if it is morally and ethically compromised it is undesirable. Throughout its 8 months in office, the Samak government has never shown support for the investigations into the allegations against Thaksin. On the contrary, it tries to protect him by accelerating the amendments of the constitution which would protect him and provide him amnesty. Samak owes the people an explanation. Just because he was elected with a majority vote does not relieve him of the responsibility of making former office holders accountable. While the accused normally would be presumed innocent because the cases are not final, the fact that he has no intention of trying to prove his innocence makes it impossible to dispel the doubts. This explains why the PAD was prompted to seize the seat of the government and has occupied it for weeks

now with relative ease. The police have not dared to use existing laws as a pretext to drive them away. I admire the police, who are armed only with shields, for not using force against the demonstrators. I also applaud the stand of the supreme commander of the armed forces, General Anupong Paojinda, who has said he will not use force to remove the demonstrators.

There are many others who have made it clear they would uphold righteousness, and have urged for a democratic solution to this impasse. Whoever takes this position will eventually win. The frustrated Samak handed the gun to the armed forces by declaring the state of emergency, but to his dismay Gen Anupong refused to pull the trigger. Like the rest of us, those in charge of the nation's security do not want to see more bloodshed. One life lost is more than enough. For our country to move ahead, the ruling power must not be perverted to whitewash the deeds of anyone, no matter how powerful they are.

Only when politics is clean can the

- Thongbai Thongpao, *well-known Thai human rights lawyer*

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/070908_News/07Sep2008_news97.php

==================================================================

Additional background:

Thongbai Thongpao Foundation

http://www.hurights.or.jp/pub/hreas/3/08Thongbai.htm

Edited September 7, 2008 by sriracha john

[kurtgruen]

COMMENTARY

The prime minister's cancelled agenda

Although PM Samak claims he came to office through democratic means, he remains trapped by his own past and a hidden agenda. In fact, we could leave out the "hidden" part, because in a bid to garner votes the PM said it loud and clear when he campaigned prior to the general election as Thaksin Shinawatra's nominee. Since the former PM now faces quite a few corruption charges that he has never been able to explain satisfactorily to the public, his nominee can hardly hope for politics as usual. Thaksin and his family face numerous lawsuits which are now in the court system. After his wife was found guilty in the Ratchadapisek land case, the couple jumped bail and took refuge in England. Despite Thaksin's absence, the controversies around him and his family are far from settled, and the PAD has not given up its mission of rooting up the last remnants of his administration. The goal of the PAD is not to seize the ruling power; it just wants to express the demand for a government which is transparent, and which has an agenda to advance the fortunes and democratic aspirations of the people. The PAD wants a government that is honest and clean. It has made clear that no matter how competent and advanced thinking a government may be, if it is morally and ethically compromised it is undesirable. Throughout its 8 months in office, the Samak government has never shown support for the investigations into the allegations against Thaksin. On the contrary, it tries to protect him by accelerating the amendments of the constitution which would protect him and provide him amnesty. Samak owes the people an explanation. Just because he was elected with a majority vote does not relieve him of the responsibility of making former office holders accountable. While the accused normally would be presumed innocent because the cases are not final, the fact that he has no intention of trying to prove his innocence makes it impossible to dispel the doubts. This explains why the PAD was prompted to seize the seat of the government and has occupied it for weeks

now with relative ease. The police have not dared to use existing laws as a pretext to drive them away. I admire the police, who are armed only with shields, for not using force against the demonstrators. I also applaud the stand of the supreme commander of the armed forces, General Anupong Paojinda, who has said he will not use force to remove the demonstrators.

There are many others who have made it clear they would uphold righteousness, and have urged for a democratic solution to this impasse. Whoever takes this position will eventually win. The frustrated Samak handed the gun to the armed forces by declaring the state of emergency, but to his dismay Gen Anupong refused to pull the trigger. Like the rest of us, those in charge of the nation's security do not want to see more bloodshed. One life lost is more than enough. For our country to move ahead, the ruling power must not be perverted to whitewash the deeds of anyone, no matter how powerful they are.

Only when politics is clean can the

- Thongbai Thongpao, *well-known Thai human rights lawyer*

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/070908_News/07Sep2008_news97.php

==================================================================

Additional background:

Thongbai Thongpao Foundation

http://www.hurights.or.jp/pub/hreas/3/08Thongbai.htm

Good article, failed to mention all the illegal vote buying and a few other things, but otherwise pretty good

[deeveloper]

Good Morning everyone!

Glad there was no violence last night.

The way that I still see it, is that the PAD had no choice, if government corruption was to be dealt a major blow...

First you have the PPP buying votes, Thaksin style, pretty much right out in the open, during the last election,knowing fully well that this was illegal and could lead to being disolved as a party. This of course didn't stop them, because it was the only way for them to get into power in the first place. They figured they could just change the laws, once they got into power and sweep all the vote buying under the carpet. (Or maybe they were that stupid to think they wouldn't get caught, but I want to give them a little bit of credit and assume that they just planned on changing the laws and pardon themselves for the crimes)

Then, after being held accountable by the Elections Commission and other opposing interests, they try to change the Constitution (without a Referendum), just to save their butts. (Wanting in effect to make vote buying more or less legal again. Not really legal, but without political consequence)

Next, the PAD steps up it's Protests and asks them to resign (by taking over Government house, etc.)

After that Samak sends in the Police to disburse them, but the closest thing they come to is breaking down Gate 5 for a while. The Protesters remain.

Next, Samak tells his Police only to carry shields and no Batons or other weapons.

Next, the PPP mobilizes Pro Government Demonstrators (by paying a lot of them and by PPP party members giving pep talk speeches). They truck them down to Bangkok, let them get drunk and riled up and then the police, together with the Pro-Government Demonstrators marched towards the PAD Rally site, armed with machetties, clubs and other weapons.

There, there is a little, well coordinated "ballet" of the Police line stepping aside, while demonstators freely rush past them, weapons in hand.

Then, Pro Government and PAD clash, one person gets killed, somewhere around 43 insured, which gives Samak the excuse and power to have his STATE OF EMERGENCY (which this forum is about, for those of you who missed it).

Freshly armed with the SOE, Samak tells the Army Chief to remove the demonstratrors, but the army chief tells him that he will not use the army against the people and that he wants this resolved peacefully, by other means.

Then after a throwing a few temper tantrums, Samak sees another way to maybe save the day and most of all the life of his party. He announced a referendum. A smart move, because now, when he finally gets forced to step down, he can claim that he tried to resolve this by giving the people a voice in it. The referendum of course, he fully well knows will take a long time to organize, so the government Propaganda machine would have a long time to cloud out all the main issues with more smoke and mirror tricks.

Now fact is, the the Election Commission ruled that the PPP must be disolved, because of the vote buying activities of their executive. This ruling is now passed on to the Supreme court, who will most likely enforce it. Again, though, it will take time. Fast tracking the Supreme Court ruling would be a great way to resolve this situation quickly. In which case, PPP will probably get disolved, a new election will be called, the PPP will run under it's new name Phua Something, I forget the name.

If the PPP gets disolved, they could do the unmentionable...they could try to compete without vote buying. Maybe we could actually have an election without any vote buying and see what happens. Not sure how to stop vote buying...

...maybe by having Scrutineers of every party present at every polling station, plus international observers. Not perfect, but a good start in trying to ensure fair elections, I think.

As long as there is blatant corruption in government, there will always be opposition to it, as there should be.

The PAD show the people, that a corrupt government can be removed by the masses.

Now, I don't expect everyone to support the PAD, but I would expect that most people would want to get rid of this current, corrupt government. (Unless they don't have a problem with government corruption)

Bottom line is, you've got to get rid of this corrupt government first! That should be in the forefront of people's minds. Everything else it only smoke and mirrors.

I think you hit the proverbial nail on the head. Thank You.

@John: Now consider a corrupt UN... bees in a honey pot with samak? The UN are just in place to subtly roll out and superceed the laws of sovereign nations - dictitorial laws for the international community. Thailand is obviously a pawn to the UN, now samak has some explaining to do.

Edited September 7, 2008 by deeveloper

[kurtgruen]

Chart Thai leader Banharn Silpa-archa warns the current political situation is extreme fragile and suggests that dissolving the House is possibly the best solution for the current crisis.

Banharn warns that the current political situation is extremely fragile and similiar to the events leading up to the Black May incident. He believes the appointment of the Senate speaker as a mediator between the government and the PAD is a good start but would only produce tangible results if both sides make compromises.

In addition, the Chart Thai leader believes the best way out is to dissolve the House and hold a new election.

From TOC

The eel changes his mind from a few days ago?

The rats are finally realizing that the ship is sinking?

[catmac]

"The world is watching (Thailand)," said Samak

and this is what they see...

Thanks, SJ.

Some great shots of a quite ordinary person doing quite ordinary things.

Eating? Yes, but in a civilised way.

Speaking out as the PM should at this time of crisis, but I see no rude gestures.

The last photo shows him having a bit of a joke with ordinary folk in the market, but we all know his passion for cooking.

Tell me SJ, why do you and other PAD fanatics constantly sneer and ridicule the man's face and looks, we can't all be beautiful! We are now some 78 pages and 1938 posts and not one anti-PAD post has ridiculed any physical shortcomings in the PAD leadership - their intelectual shortcomings are obviously fair play. Reminds me of Goebel's endless ridicule of the Jewish facial features, didn't the Nazi produce an infamous propaganda film where the Jewish face transformed into that of a rat?

[sriracha john]

They are pictures of his soul and heart... not his outward physical shortcomings (those, he can't control much)

btw, in the last one, he was yelling at journalists.... in case you're unaware, the smiling vendor is typical of Thais who smile during uncomfortable situations they find themselves in...

*edit. as a reminder to your relative newcomer status to the news forum despite your early join date, I'd encourage to respect the anti-name-calling policy of thaivisa. You'd already have more posts in this thread if you'd comply with that.

Edited September 7, 2008 by sriracha john

[catmac]

btw, the last he was yelling at journalists.... in case you're unaware, the smiling vendor is typical of Thais who smile during uncomfortable situations they find themselves in...

So you say, I would say that she thoroughly approves of whatever Samak is saying/doing. Sorry, I forgot, you know so much more about Thailand than anyone else!

Let's just debate the issues here, and leave Samak's looks out of it.

By the way, I know that you and certain others feel that this forum is your personal plaything, but the events of the last few weeks have actually caused many other TV members to join in with their views, all of which I welcome. For or against, I thought TV was open to all. Do you disagree?

Edited September 7, 2008 by catmac

[kurtgruen]

btw, the last he was yelling at journalists.... in case you're unaware, the smiling vendor is typical of Thais who smile during uncomfortable situations they find themselves in...

So you say, I would say that she thoroughly approves of whatever Samak is saying/doing. Sorry, I forgot, you know so much more about Thailand than anyone else!

Let's just debate the issues here, and leave Samak's looks out of it.

How about we just stick to the facts and discuss why we want Samak out of office and the PPP disolved, after all, Samak's physical appearance is not an issue here, but the following is...

[qoute]The way that I still see it, is that the PAD had no choice, if government corruption was to be dealt a major blow...

First you have the PPP buying votes, Thaksin style, pretty much right out in the open, during the last election,knowing fully well that this was illegal and could lead to being disolved as a party. This of course didn't stop them, because it was the only way for them to get into power in the first place. They figured they could just change the laws, once they got into power and sweep all the vote buying under the carpet. (Or maybe they were that stupid to think they wouldn't get caught, but I want to give them a little bit of credit and assume that they just planned on changing the laws and pardon themselves for the crimes)

Then, after being held accountable by the Elections Commission and other opposing interests, they try to change the Constitution (without a Referendum), just to save their butts. (Wanting in effect to make vote buying more or less legal again. Not really legal, but without political consequence)

Next, the PAD steps up it's Protests and asks them to resign (by taking over Government house, etc.)

After that Samak sends in the Police to disburse them, but the closest thing they come to is breaking down Gate 5 for a while. The Protesters remain.

Next, Samak tells his Police only to carry shields and no Batons or other weapons.

Next, the PPP mobilizes Pro Government Demonstrators (by paying a lot of them and by PPP party members giving pep talk speeches). They truck them down to Bangkok, let them get drunk and riled up and then the police, together with the Pro-Government Demonstrators marched towards the PAD Rally site, armed with machetties, clubs and other weapons.

There, there is a little, well coordinated "ballet" of the Police line stepping aside, while demonstators freely rush past them, weapons in hand.

Then, Pro Government and PAD clash, one person gets killed, somewhere around 43 insured, which gives Samak the excuse and power to have his STATE OF EMERGENCY (which this forum is about, for those of you who missed it).

Freshly armed with the SOE, Samak tells the Army Chief to remove the demonstratrors, but the army chief tells him that he will not use the army against the people and that he wants this resolved peacefully, by other means.

Then after a throwing a few temper tantrums, Samak sees another way to maybe save the day and most of all the life of his party. He announced a referendum. A smart move, because now, when he finally gets forced to step down, he can claim that he tried to resolve this by giving the people a voice in it. The referendum of course, he fully well knows will take a long time to organize, so the government Propaganda machine would have a long time to cloud out all the main issues with more smoke and mirror tricks.

Now fact is, the the Election Commission ruled that the PPP must be disolved, because of the vote buying activities of their executive. This ruling is now passed on to the Supreme court, who will most likely enforce it. Again, though, it will take time. Fast tracking the Supreme Court ruling would be a great way to resolve this situation quickly. In which case, PPP will probably get disolved, a new election will be called, the PPP will run under it's new name Phua Something, I forget the name.

If the PPP gets disolved, they could do the unmentionable...they could try to compete without vote buying. Maybe we could actually have an election without any vote buying and see what happens. Not sure how to stop vote buying...

...maybe by having Scrutineers of every party present at every polling station, plus international observers. Not perfect, but a good start in trying to ensure fair elections, I think.

As long as there is blatant corruption in government, there will always be opposition to it, as there should be.

The PAD show the people, that a corrupt government can be removed by the masses.

Now, I don't expect everyone to support the PAD, but I would expect that most people would want to get rid of this current, corrupt government. (Unless they don't have a problem with government corruption)

Bottom line is, you've got to get rid of this corrupt government first! That should be in the forefront of people's minds. Everything else it only smoke and mirrors. [/qoute]

[Tony Clifton]

He sure loves skating on thin ice, and he already fell through once

Seems like Jakrapop isn't the only one with a taste for skating on thin ice

Are you hinting you'd love to see me suspended or banned?

Jai yen yeeen.

Here's an oldie I've pulled out of the archives just for you.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Tony Clifton

[kurtgruen]

This just got posted on the Bangkok Post....

Abhisit blames PM for not dissolving House

(BangkokPost.com) - Democrat party and opposition leader Abhisit Vejjajiva on Sunday called on Prime Minister and Defence Minister Samak Sundaravej to loosen his stance by revising his actions and stop thinking that he has done nothing wrong. Mr Abhisit did not believe that many people have been demonstrating for months without causes.

The Democrat leader said he will listen to Senate speaker and mediator Prasopsuk Boondej’s explanation before deciding whether the negotiation between the government and the People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD) will take place.

If Mr Samak decided to dissolve the House of Representatives on August 31, the situation would improve almost completely, according to Mr Abhisit. He said the clash between the PAD and the United Front of Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD) as well as the declaration of the emergency decree happened because the premier turned down this alternative.

[thaigene2]

Just saw that Al Jazzera interview with Jakaprob and a rep from the Democrat party again today, Jakaprob clearly mentions ''invisible hands and sacred power''

He sure loves skating on thin ice, and he already fell through once

He blames the PAD for preventing PPP to perform right from the start.

We`ll surely get it on Youtube soon, the program was East 101.

The latest news today is that Samak says he'll go to the UN later this month for a scheduled meeting and will tell the world what's really going on in Thailand, presumably meaning 'who's behind the PAD'. So far, the PPP and Samak have been careful not to mentioned the elites invovled in this. He and his spokespeople won't even mention the word Sakdina anymore (the old-family money Feudal establishment) that the popular press has been accusing as 'hidden hands' (esp the foreign media) for several weeks now. (Some believe Jakrapob was charged with breaching lese majeste - incorrectly - but as a warning to others not to infer the Sakdinas are fighting a proxi-war via the PAD).

Maybe Samak will finally say this at the UN? But you can bet even Samak wouldn't go beyond that.