Moving To Bankok. Fair Pay For Us Project Manager?

[floridaguy]

I am considering a job in Bankok with a US company that has a Branch Office in Bankok. The position is Project Manager. This would involve hiring Thai companies to do various jobs at local US plants and factories, such as janitorial services, pest control, lawn service, etc. What should I expect to receive? Does anyone know any US citizens working as Project Managers in Thailand and approximately what they are earning, in US dollars? They are offering a salary that is lower than what I would earn in the same position here in the US, but I know that the cost of living is lower in Thailand.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. I have been unable to find salary information of this nature anywhere.

Edited September 16, 2008 by floridaguy

[johna]

Don't worry about your salary, the tea money you can earn in this position is fantastic.

[PattayaParent]

Your salary should be higher than you are getting in your home country 'cos they are relocating you half way across the world.

What about housing allowances? Airfares? School fees? These should be taken into considerationas well.

And get your salary paid Staeside with a local 'salary' paid in Bangkok for local tax purposes unless you have a tax equalisation package.

[bkkjames]

Your salary may be lower but your taxes will be higher than what you pay in the USA, unless you get paid a portion of it offshore.

Bangkok (for the average Western Expat of Executive Level) is not that much cheaper unless your housing is paid for.

Of course others will come on here and say they can eat for 40 baht on the street everyday but in my many years here, I have yet to see too many MD's sitting on the side of the road in their dark blue suits in our balmy weather, slurping back a bowl of noodles.

While some in your company may argue that the overall cost of living is cheaper here than most major cities in the USA, keep in mind that they are asking your to travel to a developing country and deal with the stress of living / working in a place very foreign to you.

If anything, they should be paying you more than what you make back home.

[GuestHouse]

They are offering a salary that is lower than what I would earn in the same position here in the US, but I know that the cost of living is lower in Thailand.

A clear sign that they expect to get you on the cheap.

For an expat jpb in Bangkok - At least US Salary + 25% + local living allowances at a minimum of Bht 100K per month + health insurance for your (and your family) + (Education at an international school for your children) + R&R leave flights for you (and your family) at least once a year.

If they are not offering something along these lines point them in the direction of the local bars where they'll find plenty of takers for low pay and low conditions.

I know one expat who took a local job, pay a bit less than back home, but happy to be in Thailand - The last time I spoke to him he told me he has not had a pay rise of seven years.

The expat job market in Thailand is tiny compared with the options you have back home - It's not just an issue of lower pay, but very few options to move on if you are not happy with the post.

Yep, I forgot housing and a car.

Edited September 17, 2008 by GuestHouse

[geriatrickid]

Pay attention to Guest House. Read it over and over. Ignore it and you will suffer financially.

[bendix]

They are offering a salary that is lower than what I would earn in the same position here in the US, but I know that the cost of living is lower in Thailand.

A clear sign that they expect to get you on the cheap.

For an expat jpb in Bangkok - At least US Salary + 25% + local living allowances at a minimum of Bht 100K per month + health insurance for your (and your family) + (Education at an international school for your children) + R&R leave flights for you (and your family) at least once a year.

If they are not offering something along these lines point them in the direction of the local bars where they'll find plenty of takers for low pay and low conditions.

I know one expat who took a local job, pay a bit less than back home, but happy to be in Thailand - The last time I spoke to him he told me he has not had a pay rise of seven years.

The expat job market in Thailand is tiny compared with the options you have back home - It's not just an issue of lower pay, but very few options to move on if you are not happy with the post.

Yep, I forgot housing and a car.

Nonsense. This may apply for CEO roles for multinationals, but we are talking about a project manager role. There are expat roles and there are expat roles.

The only comment I agree with is that they'll find plenty of takers who can do it locally. The type of package you are describing is clearly for roles where - by definition - they can't find local resources to do it, hence the premium on salaries and benefits.

What the OP's choice comes down to is personal desire to be here. Don't muddy his decision with fantasy packages.

[bkkjames]

Bendix:

There maybe some local project managers that will do it on the cheap, but I know a few expats that wouldn't touch an offer that was anywhere near local salaries.

This is probably why he is being asked to move here in the first place. They don't want local expertise at any cost.

The guy is being asked to move half way around the world. If you are suggesting he does this for 60,000 baht a month, well that is just nonsense.

[bendix]

Not suggesting that at all. He hasnt told us what the offer is, although as he says it's below his US salary he implies it's not that low.

My point is this. He is relatively lucky. I imagine the salary is what I call a local salary +, which seems to be a new band of pay range. We can't just divide salaries into local salaries and GH's definition of expat salaries.

The huge expat salaries are for those roles which CAN'T be filled locally. But there are a range of middle management jobs offered to farangs which COULD be done locally, but for some reason the companies want expats. They will not pay huge salaries and school allowances, but they WILL pay significantly higher than local rates. I have no firm figures on this, but based on experiences in my old company I imagine the role would be paid around 200,000 a month for an expat, a significant premium on the 70-80k a local might expect to earn.

In the end, it's up to the individual. How much does he want to be here?

[thaihome]

Not suggesting that at all. He hasnt told us what the offer is, although as he says it's below his US salary he implies it's not that low.

My point is this. He is relatively lucky. I imagine the salary is what I call a local salary +, which seems to be a new band of pay range. We can't just divide salaries into local salaries and GH's definition of expat salaries.

The huge expat salaries are for those roles which CAN'T be filled locally. But there are a range of middle management jobs offered to farangs which COULD be done locally, but for some reason the companies want expats. They will not pay huge salaries and school allowances, but they WILL pay significantly higher than local rates. I have no firm figures on this, but based on experiences in my old company I imagine the role would be paid around 200,000 a month for an expat, a significant premium on the 70-80k a local might expect to earn.

In the end, it's up to the individual. How much does he want to be here?

GH is dead on. That package is reality, not fantasy. If they want a “local” expat, go down to any beer bar in Pattaya and find one. You get what you pay for.

TH

[bendix]

Not for a project manager role, it isnt.

With respect to the OP, we're talking about a middle manager role responsible for hiring rat-catching companies. He's hardly looking at a role which is guiding a billion dollar enterprise through an economic and business minefield.

[GuestHouse]

Nonsense. This may apply for CEO roles for multinationals, but we are talking about a project manager role. There are expat roles and there are expat roles.

The only comment I agree with is that they'll find plenty of takers who can do it locally. The type of package you are describing is clearly for roles where - by definition - they can't find local resources to do it, hence the premium on salaries and benefits.

What the OP's choice comes down to is personal desire to be here. Don't muddy his decision with fantasy packages.

Not at all a fantasy package, and certainly not an executive package, rather standard 'starting' packages for expats working for international companies.

[bendix]

So sayeth our Saudi-based expert on Thai expat packages.

[bkkjames]

Not for a project manager role, it isnt.

With respect to the OP, we're talking about a middle manager role responsible for hiring rat-catching companies. He's hardly looking at a role which is guiding a billion dollar enterprise through an economic and business minefield.

Do you know how many rats there are here? It's big business, apparently they is an export market for them to certain countries in North Asia

[thaihome]

Not for a project manager role, it isnt.

With respect to the OP, we're talking about a middle manager role responsible for hiring rat-catching companies. He's hardly looking at a role which is guiding a billion dollar enterprise through an economic and business minefield.

Why should he not get his US salary and an uplift, housing, etc, for moving 15,000 miles to a developing country? Like I said, if the US company wants a "local" expat they know where to go. Instead, they are trying to get a real expat on the cheap.

This is much more fun then arguing how much a ST or LT should cost, even though the principles are the same...

TH

[floridaguy]

Not suggesting that at all. He hasnt told us what the offer is, although as he says it's below his US salary he implies it's not that low.

My point is this. He is relatively lucky. I imagine the salary is what I call a local salary +, which seems to be a new band of pay range. We can't just divide salaries into local salaries and GH's definition of expat salaries.

The huge expat salaries are for those roles which CAN'T be filled locally. But there are a range of middle management jobs offered to farangs which COULD be done locally, but for some reason the companies want expats. They will not pay huge salaries and school allowances, but they WILL pay significantly higher than local rates. I have no firm figures on this, but based on experiences in my old company I imagine the role would be paid around 200,000 a month for an expat, a significant premium on the 70-80k a local might expect to earn.

In the end, it's up to the individual. How much does he want to be here?

The offer is $58000 US dollars per year. I haven't really gotten into all the details yet, so I don't know about any allowances, health care, car housing, etc. A project manager in the US usually earns about $61000 US dollars per year. According to Kelly Services, a Thai project manager earns about 720000 Baht per year or about $21000 US dollars per year.

So I guess it does seem like a reasonable offer, but I had hoped for more just for the hassle of uprooting my family to Thailand.

Does $58000 US dollars per year offer a "comfortable" living? By that I mean a nice house or condo in a good, safe part of Bankok, good schools for my kids, a car, and money for recreation, and then some to invest? That salary is just comfortable here in Tampa Florida.

[thaihome]

So sayeth our Saudi-based expert on Thai expat packages.

Some of us are Thai based experts on Thai expat packages.

TH

[GuestHouse]

So sayeth our Saudi-based expert on Thai expat packages.

Who's worked in Thailand on three occasions on expat packages, managed numerous expats in Thailand on expat packages, has lived in many other countries on expat packages and who is in Saudi on an expat package.

Your credentials please?

[bkkjames]

Not suggesting that at all. He hasnt told us what the offer is, although as he says it's below his US salary he implies it's not that low.

My point is this. He is relatively lucky. I imagine the salary is what I call a local salary +, which seems to be a new band of pay range. We can't just divide salaries into local salaries and GH's definition of expat salaries.

The huge expat salaries are for those roles which CAN'T be filled locally. But there are a range of middle management jobs offered to farangs which COULD be done locally, but for some reason the companies want expats. They will not pay huge salaries and school allowances, but they WILL pay significantly higher than local rates. I have no firm figures on this, but based on experiences in my old company I imagine the role would be paid around 200,000 a month for an expat, a significant premium on the 70-80k a local might expect to earn.

In the end, it's up to the individual. How much does he want to be here?

The offer is $58000 US dollars per year. I haven't really gotten into all the details yet, so I don't know about any allowances, health care, car housing, etc. A project manager in the US usually earns about $61000 US dollars per year. According to Kelly Services, a Thai project manager earns about 720000 Baht per year or about $21000 US dollars per year.

So I guess it does seem like a reasonable offer, but I had hoped for more just for the hassle of uprooting my family to Thailand.

Does $58000 US dollars per year offer a "comfortable" living? By that I mean a nice house or condo in a good, safe part of Bankok, good schools for my kids, a car, and money for recreation, and then some to invest? That salary is just comfortable here in Tampa Florida.

If they pay for your housing it would be barely be enough for you and your family. You would pay 30% tax at least here. You could live on it, but forget about saving anything.

[Colonel_Mustard]

Not suggesting that at all. He hasnt told us what the offer is, although as he says it's below his US salary he implies it's not that low.

My point is this. He is relatively lucky. I imagine the salary is what I call a local salary +, which seems to be a new band of pay range. We can't just divide salaries into local salaries and GH's definition of expat salaries.

The huge expat salaries are for those roles which CAN'T be filled locally. But there are a range of middle management jobs offered to farangs which COULD be done locally, but for some reason the companies want expats. They will not pay huge salaries and school allowances, but they WILL pay significantly higher than local rates. I have no firm figures on this, but based on experiences in my old company I imagine the role would be paid around 200,000 a month for an expat, a significant premium on the 70-80k a local might expect to earn.

In the end, it's up to the individual. How much does he want to be here?

The offer is $58000 US dollars per year. I haven't really gotten into all the details yet, so I don't know about any allowances, health care, car housing, etc. A project manager in the US usually earns about $61000 US dollars per year. According to Kelly Services, a Thai project manager earns about 720000 Baht per year or about $21000 US dollars per year.

So I guess it does seem like a reasonable offer, but I had hoped for more just for the hassle of uprooting my family to Thailand.

Does $58000 US dollars per year offer a "comfortable" living? By that I mean a nice house or condo in a good, safe part of Bankok, good schools for my kids, a car, and money for recreation, and then some to invest? That salary is just comfortable here in Tampa Florida.

Would be tough to live on that unless they are paying housing and schooling as well.

[andy1308]

The OP might also want to remember that most of the dealings will be with Thai companies, hence the need to be able to successfully communicate and negotiate in Thai. He should make sure the package includes a decent PA to assist.

[thaihome]

Not suggesting that at all. He hasnt told us what the offer is, although as he says it's below his US salary he implies it's not that low.

My point is this. He is relatively lucky. I imagine the salary is what I call a local salary +, which seems to be a new band of pay range. We can't just divide salaries into local salaries and GH's definition of expat salaries.

The huge expat salaries are for those roles which CAN'T be filled locally. But there are a range of middle management jobs offered to farangs which COULD be done locally, but for some reason the companies want expats. They will not pay huge salaries and school allowances, but they WILL pay significantly higher than local rates. I have no firm figures on this, but based on experiences in my old company I imagine the role would be paid around 200,000 a month for an expat, a significant premium on the 70-80k a local might expect to earn.

In the end, it's up to the individual. How much does he want to be here?

The offer is $58000 US dollars per year. I haven't really gotten into all the details yet, so I don't know about any allowances, health care, car housing, etc. A project manager in the US usually earns about $61000 US dollars per year. According to Kelly Services, a Thai project manager earns about 720000 Baht per year or about $21000 US dollars per year.

So I guess it does seem like a reasonable offer, but I had hoped for more just for the hassle of uprooting my family to Thailand.

Does $58000 US dollars per year offer a "comfortable" living? By that I mean a nice house or condo in a good, safe part of Bankok, good schools for my kids, a car, and money for recreation, and then some to invest? That salary is just comfortable here in Tampa Florida.

If you are going to uproot your family to live in Thailand, don’t you want a bit more then just to get along like you are in Tampa right now? Shouldn’t there be some long term goal? Like save a ton of money?

Working overseas, you should be able to put away at 50-75% of your take home pay. you do this because most things are paid for (housing, school, etc) and they pay you more to work here.

TH

[floridaguy]

Your salary should be higher than you are getting in your home country 'cos they are relocating you half way across the world.

What about housing allowances? Airfares? School fees? These should be taken into considerationas well.

And get your salary paid Staeside with a local 'salary' paid in Bangkok for local tax purposes unless you have a tax equalisation package.

Your salary may be lower but your taxes will be higher than what you pay in the USA, unless you get paid a portion of it offshore.

Bangkok (for the average Western Expat of Executive Level) is not that much cheaper unless your housing is paid for.

Of course others will come on here and say they can eat for 40 baht on the street everyday but in my many years here, I have yet to see too many MD's sitting on the side of the road in their dark blue suits in our balmy weather, slurping back a bowl of noodles.

While some in your company may argue that the overall cost of living is cheaper here than most major cities in the USA, keep in mind that they are asking your to travel to a developing country and deal with the stress of living / working in a place very foreign to you.

If anything, they should be paying you more than what you make back home.

How does getting two salaries benefit me? Is the US paid salary taxed in the US at US rates, and then the locally paid salary taxed in Thailand at Thai rates? Can you explain this if further detail please?

[floridaguy]

Not suggesting that at all. He hasnt told us what the offer is, although as he says it's below his US salary he implies it's not that low.

My point is this. He is relatively lucky. I imagine the salary is what I call a local salary +, which seems to be a new band of pay range. We can't just divide salaries into local salaries and GH's definition of expat salaries.

The huge expat salaries are for those roles which CAN'T be filled locally. But there are a range of middle management jobs offered to farangs which COULD be done locally, but for some reason the companies want expats. They will not pay huge salaries and school allowances, but they WILL pay significantly higher than local rates. I have no firm figures on this, but based on experiences in my old company I imagine the role would be paid around 200,000 a month for an expat, a significant premium on the 70-80k a local might expect to earn.

In the end, it's up to the individual. How much does he want to be here?

The offer is $58000 US dollars per year. I haven't really gotten into all the details yet, so I don't know about any allowances, health care, car housing, etc. A project manager in the US usually earns about $61000 US dollars per year. According to Kelly Services, a Thai project manager earns about 720000 Baht per year or about $21000 US dollars per year.

So I guess it does seem like a reasonable offer, but I had hoped for more just for the hassle of uprooting my family to Thailand.

Does $58000 US dollars per year offer a "comfortable" living? By that I mean a nice house or condo in a good, safe part of Bankok, good schools for my kids, a car, and money for recreation, and then some to invest? That salary is just comfortable here in Tampa Florida.

If you are going to uproot your family to live in Thailand, don't you want a bit more then just to get along like you are in Tampa right now? Shouldn't there be some long term goal? Like save a ton of money?

Working overseas, you should be able to put away at 50-75% of your take home pay. you do this because most things are paid for (housing, school, etc) and they pay you more to work here.

TH

That is exactly my concern. I was hoping to save most of my salary. I didn't realize the cost of living in Thailand would be as high as everyone here is suggesting

[bkkjames]

Just a rough calculation on my part

60,000 USD = 170,000 baht per month before any taxes.

3 bedroom serviced apartment = 60-100k pm

International school=? pm

Insurance = ? pm

Travel / car =? pm

Food and entertainment = ? pm

I think your salary is do-able for you but for a whole family?

[stephaniee]

if your family includes little kids dont go. let a single guy get the job!

i wouldnt want to raise western kids in los, unless you get a darn good pay raise 4 your troubles.

[Spee]

They are offering a salary that is lower than what I would earn in the same position here in the US, but I know that the cost of living is lower in Thailand.

A clear sign that they expect to get you on the cheap.

For an expat jpb in Bangkok - At least US Salary + 25% + local living allowances at a minimum of Bht 100K per month + health insurance for your (and your family) + (Education at an international school for your children) + R&R leave flights for you (and your family) at least once a year.

If they are not offering something along these lines point them in the direction of the local bars where they'll find plenty of takers for low pay and low conditions.

Yep, I forgot housing and a car.

I agree with everything GH says and would also add a few suggestions:

- Get EVERYTHING in writing. You are going halfway around the world to work for this company. They should have no problems putting some T's & C's on paper, and that paper should be treated like a written contract. If they hesitate, you should make a case that this is beneficial and for the protection of both you and the company. If they refuse, then this should be a huge red flag.

- Unless you are super tuned in to Thai culture and have some skills with language and customs, you are probably going to experience some difficulties along the way in negotiating work deals with Thai companies. Under these circumstances, it would seem reasonable to have some sort of performance bonus in place. Again, this protects and rewards both you and the company.

- Your company should be offering some sort of relocation package. Make sure it is a two-way deal. They should get you, your family and belongings home in the same manner as they sent you abroad. It should also be a mix of cash and services. If you have a car in the US that you would plan to sell, then you should be compensated for having to sell it at below market rate. In my last assignment, we were given up to a couple thousand USD for car sale. You will also need cash for various electrical appliances. Electricity in Thailand is 220V/50Hz whereas US is 120V/60Hz with different receptacles (http://www.equitech.com/support/worldpwr.html). Better off to just buy new stuff upon arrival than risk "smoking" something (unless you can confirm that the power supply is auto-sensing or has a switch to change from one to the other. By the time you look at things like electric toothbrush, electric razor, blender, TV, hair dryer, etc., you're well into many hundreds of dollars or even a few thousand.

- The tax equalization package is a MUST! It is also pretty standard. The company should pay any Thai taxes that you would incur. They should also equalize your US taxes. I don't think you will qualify for any IRS breaks until you have been out of the country for a full tax year. I would urge you to read up on the IRS rules. Also, after a certain period of time, any extra company benefits like paid school tuition for children, per diem for meals and housing, company car, etc., will be treated as taxable income (albeit partially deductible). It is possible that after a year, you could see your gross income effectively doubled. If the company isn't equalizing, then your favorite Uncle's collection agency could have a big surprise for you. Part of the deal with my last assignment was that the company provided income tax preparation services in addition to tax equalization.

- In addition to a return flight home (one free flight per year is pretty standard, I think), the company should also provide you with some extra vacation days for home leave, in addition to the 4 days you will spend traveling on that trip.

- If you have a wife and children, then obviously you need to get their approval. There are many threads in this forum about the Thai educational system. As GH suggests, you would want your children in the best schools possible, so that they are able to stay up with or ahead of their US classmates. Your wife will probably also need something to do, or she will eventually go nuts. On my last assignment (not in Thailand) there were 9 or 10 work colleagues who brought wives and families abroad with them. About half the wives were homesick after a few months and all were ready to go "home" several months before the end of their husband's assignment.

- You would also want paid language classes for your entire family, or at least reasonable per diem to cover these costs. I couldn't imagine living full time in Thailand and not working hard on the language. It should be considered mandatory for you and recommended for your family.

I could probably think of a few other things, but I think you get the idea. This could be potentially a really terrific assignment. On the other hand, if the company isn't prepared to put detailed, comprehensive terms and conditions in writing on paper that all parties agree to and sign, then you should turn away, run far and run fast.

Better to stand firm and be fair for mutually acceptable terms, than to accept such an assignment with vague or unagreed terms.

If the company is willing to put things in writing (and any reputable company will) then it is worth paying a good tax or employment attorney review the T's & C's before you sign. Don't rush into, and don't let anyone compel you to rush into it.

Any decent relocation deal that is good for all parties will usually contain a clause for minimum term, usually one year. If the company breaks the deal, make sure you will be compensated accordingly. If you break the deal, expect the company to look for some money back.

All that said, I'm certainly not trying to talk you out of the assignment. If I could get a decent job working in Bangkok, with a reasonable compensation package, then I would grab it in a heartbeat. If you are young, now is the time to be adventurous and take assignments like these. If you have a family, it could be a tremendous opportunity for them to expand their horizons. Just be careful and make sure the deal is something you can live with.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[girlx]

For an expat jpb in Bangkok - At least US Salary + 25% + local living allowances at a minimum of Bht 100K per month + health insurance for your (and your family) + (Education at an international school for your children) + R&R leave flights for you (and your family) at least once a year.

hmm i wish expat jobs existed for what i do!

[thaihome]

Just a rough calculation on my part

60,000 USD = 170,000 baht per month before any taxes.

3 bedroom serviced apartment = 60-100k pm

International school=? pm

Insurance = ? pm

Travel / car =? pm

Food and entertainment = ? pm

I think your salary is do-able for you but for a whole family?

At that salary, Thai tax would about 30%, so the 170k per month is reduced to about 120k. International schools (and I assume the OP’s family is American and has no Thai roots) starts at about 500k per year per kid. So for one kid amortized over a year, there goes another 40k, now we are down to 80k a month and all we have done is pay the taxes, the rent and get the kid in school. Say another 20k month for a car, without including cost of fuel. Your wife is going to be really pissed because she is going to be the only one of the people she meets that doesn’t have a maid and has to clean and cook herself. So subtract another 10k or so for the maid. Western food in grocery stores is probably about 20% more (transportation cost and general price gouging), so whatever you pay now add that much to it.

Wont’ be saving much I’m afraid.

As far as US taxes, at 60k per year, you are under the 85K+ foreign income exclusion, so you won’t own any US tax, but you do have file.

TH

[stephaniee]

hmmmmmmmmmmm

if op want to go to los he better take what company offers. im sure lots of thais who could do his job.

im with bendix on this one. holy COW!

Edited September 17, 2008 by stephaniee