Moving To Bankok. Fair Pay For Us Project Manager?

[Spee]

Chemical businesses here in Thailand, than 200 to 300 k per month is the current average with no additional allowances other than medical insurance and annual flights. the days of paying inflated salaries to those with inflated egos are I'm glad to say gone. We are only talking PM's here don't forget not the few highly paid executives. Of course you can always get more if you come on a short term term contract as is the case anywhere in the world and least not forget the posters profession is not in a highly paid sector either.

This response strikes me as a bit jaded, "inflated salaries for inflated egos." One's qualifications are worth whatever they can get someone to pay. There are overpaid and underpaid people in every line of work, starting at minimum wage and going all the way up to the very best and the most incompetent chief execs'.

I would agree that expat opportunities possibly aren't what they once were, but they do exist. All one needs is talent in demand, a willingness to commit and work hard, and a willingness to go where no one else wants to.

$7k-$8k gross per month might be average as you suggest, but there is more out there if one is willing to shop around. The most important thing is not sign up for a deal that isn't worth it. Any expat deal worth doing, is worth doing in writing. It doesn't matter if one is a CEO or emptying the CEO's rubbish bin.

If someone is looking at the prospect of relocating halfway around the world to a country they have never visited, then it seems reasonable to ask questions. I think the OP did a good move by posting here and will have found some of the answers sought.

[thaihome]

....

I still cannot believe that a company would relocate a Projects Manager to Thailand from US on a fabulous salary + benefits to hire Janitors, grasscutters and bugkillers.

Just don't add up.

Then again, he said the Salary was 58,000 USD a year, and that's considerably less than what an Airline Pilot will earn.

Kinda on Par with what some English Teachers claim to earn in Bangkok.

Anyway, I'll just have to scrape by on 10,000 baht per hour.

58,000 base salary

14,500 25% overseas premium/tax gross up

36,364 housing @ bt100k pm

15,152 school 1 kid 500k pa

7,200 car allowance USD 600k pm

6,000 Annual Home leave 3 persons @ 2k each

17,400 tax equalization (difference between Thai tax on total versus US tax on base, plus gross up of tax equalization- comes to about 30% of base)

154,616 total Gross for employee

23,200 company overhead (about 40% of base)

177,816 total cost to company

Ok, so lets say this is a major MNC with a large presence here in Thailand (there are several to chose from), they have 4 factories, an office in Bangkok, as well as a large fleet of vehicles. All this cost them about 3 million, including rents, to maintain. That means for about 5% they can get someone they know is honest and will work for their best interest to manage the whole thing.

Compared to what can (and does to the people that try to save the money) this is a deal.

TH

Edited September 17, 2008 by thaihome

[Maigo6]

Are you SURE they are hiring you to deal with pest control, and lawn service, and stuff that you would have to be 100% proficient in Thai to organize? Because with a translator, there will be a 10 minutes of conversation and you will get a 1-liner for the translation. There is no reason to bring you across the world to organize that kind of work.

That should be red-flag number one.

Did you ask what happened to the person who was doing this job prior to you? Was the person an expat? Did they leave? and why? Perfectly acceptable AMERICAN (for those who might slam me) questions for employers.

Very reasonable line of questioning.

I'd be totally amazed that any company would import a Projects manager from the States to kill a few Ants and Cockroaches, mow a lawn and sweep the floor.

I reckon the OP wants to be an English Teacher but don't wanna say so for some reason, hence the advice being sought on salaries and living costs etc etc, surely he would have asked the employer about the benefits package when the offer was made.

Something ain't right.

[bkkjames]

MaiGo - the guy is asking about cost of living in Bangkok. Perfectly valid when considering a job offer here.

[Maigo6]

I think the OP did a good move by posting here and will have found some of the answers sought.

I think the OP would have made a better move by asking his employer what his benefits will be.

[bkkjames]

I think the OP did a good move by posting here and will have found some of the answers sought.

I think the OP would have made a better move by asking his employer what his benefits will be.

Perhaps he did already and came here for a 2nd, 3rd and 4th opinion from people that actually live here. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

[TEFLMike]

...that's much more than a Commercial Airline Pilot earns.

If you are still comparing high paid jobs to airline pilots, I'm afraid the world has passed you by...

TH

So you would consider an Commercial Airline Pilots job to be low paid ?

I think the world must have certainly passed me by..

I still cannot believe that a company would relocate a Projects Manager to Thailand from US on a fabulous salary + benefits to hire Janitors, grasscutters and bugkillers.

Just don't add up.

Then again, he said the Salary was 58,000 USD a year, and that's considerably less than what an Airline Pilot will earn.

Kinda on Par with what some English Teachers claim to earn in Bangkok.

Anyway, I'll just have to scrape by on 10,000 baht per hour.

DOH! And TEFL Teachers get from 30000 baht per month ? It certainly does not add up. At this level of money talks, that 30000tb should be per school child.

Edited September 17, 2008 by TEFLMike

[Maigo6]

MaiGo - the guy is asking about cost of living in Bangkok. Perfectly valid when considering a job offer here.

Valid point yes, yet surely he'll be on some kind of relocation deal with the company, I would have thought it wise to ask at the time of the offer what that deal entails.

I'm quite sure there is more to this post than meets the eye.

Dealing with and hiring Thai staff, I would assume the OP is a Thai speaker ? Why don't the company use any of the umpteen Industrial Services Companies already based in Thailand, why import another body ?

It's not like he's a Consultant Brain Surgeon, or enlightening Forum post professional is it ?

Edited September 17, 2008 by Maigo6

[petitechevre]

Theres very nice 3bedroom 100square meter+ apartments for rent around sathorn for 35k baht and less..

and a ton in ratchada for less than 25k

You'd make way enough money.

I would def take this job, since you could probably live on tea money for the rest of your life and just put the salary on the side for future bliss.

[Maigo6]

DOH! And TEFL Teachers get from 30000 baht per month ? It certainly does not add up. At this level of money talks, that 30000tb should be per school child.

I have heard that some teachers are on well over 100,000 Baht per month, I wouldn't know if this is actually the case, some Teacher told me in a bar one night.

[TEFLMike]

DOH! And TEFL Teachers get from 30000 baht per month ? It certainly does not add up. At this level of money talks, that 30000tb should be per school child.

I have heard that some teachers are on well over 100,000 Baht per month, I wouldn't know if this is actually the case, some Teacher told me in a bar one night.

I too, have heard this story, maybe it is true, maybe not. However, I have yet to meet a teacher on that kind of money. T

[TEFLMike]

DOH! And TEFL Teachers get from 30000 baht per month ? It certainly does not add up. At this level of money talks, that 30000tb should be per school child.

I have heard that some teachers are on well over 100,000 Baht per month, I wouldn't know if this is actually the case, some Teacher told me in a bar one night.

I too, have heard this story, maybe it is true, maybe not. However, I have yet to meet a teacher on that kind of money.

[PattayaParent]

Well then I suggest you stay in bed and content yourself with your dreams. As a well established major global company here I suspect that the 300 plus expats we employ are perhaps somewhat more realistic in their aspirations than yourself.

Not my aspiration mate I ACTUALLY get more than double your lowest figure working for a well established global company here, and as I said I'm the lowest paid Farang in the whole company.

My ASPIRATION is to work for the company in Laemchabang that is CURRENTLY paying their Farangs $1,400 PER DAY and providing accomodation, transport and airfares etc.

[TEFLMike]

Well then I suggest you stay in bed and content yourself with your dreams. As a well established major global company here I suspect that the 300 plus expats we employ are perhaps somewhat more realistic in their aspirations than yourself.

Not my aspiration mate I ACTUALLY get more than double your lowest figure working for a well established global company here, and as I said I'm the lowest paid Farang in the whole company.

My ASPIRATION is to work for the company in Laemchabang that is CURRENTLY paying their Farangs $1,400 PER DAY and providing accomodation, transport and airfares etc.

Have you got an Application Form please?

[Maigo6]

Well then I suggest you stay in bed and content yourself with your dreams. As a well established major global company here I suspect that the 300 plus expats we employ are perhaps somewhat more realistic in their aspirations than yourself.

Not my aspiration mate I ACTUALLY get more than double your lowest figure working for a well established global company here, and as I said I'm the lowest paid Farang in the whole company.

My ASPIRATION is to work for the company in Laemchabang that is CURRENTLY paying their Farangs $1,400 PER DAY and providing accomodation, transport and airfares etc.

1.5 Million Baht per Month plus expenses.

Thats good money..

I heard Wayne Rooney was applying for a job there!

[PhilHarries]

LOL....

Now we're gonna have a pissin' contest about who earns the most money.

Why not start a new thread, I'm sure you'll get plenty of honest replies.

No, we're pissin' because somebody thinks just because his company pays a particular rate the rest of the world follows suit and these expat deals don't exist. They do exist and not just for sh1tholes like Saudi, Kazahkstan and Sakhalin.

Actually 300k Baht a month comes out at around 60k GBP a year which isn't a bad remuneration for the UK until you start to take out the 40% tax + +, I believe that Thai tax would be higher for that salary band but it's been a while since I cared about the 'T' word (not Thaksin either). But as others have said once you start getting sent around the world especially family status you are entitled to more.

But then there was a sign up in the office in New Jersey I worked in that said:

"SOME OF YOU THINK YOU ARE NOT GETTING PAID WHAT YOU ARE WORTH..........................................................WELL BE GRATEFUL"

[GuestHouse]

So sayeth our Saudi-based expert on Thai expat packages.

for a "Yarmouth Boy" Bendix you talk a lot of sense are absolutely correct and the "fantasy" packages being quoted are strictly just that. Perhaps GH is correct in his own imagination but for facts then in my company and its associates that employ a very large number of Expats, with many PM's in Oil, Gas and Chemical businesses here in Thailand, than 200 to 300 k per month is the current average with no additional allowances other than medical insurance and annual flights. the days of paying inflated salaries to those with inflated egos are I'm glad to say gone. We are only talking PM's here don't forget not the few highly paid executives. Of course you can always get more if you come on a short term term contract as is the case anywhere in the world and least not forget the posters profession is not in a highly paid sector either.

As you say Bendix it all comes down to how much you want to live here.

I think this post demonstrates the grasp of reality of people who are willing to take a deal of Bht200~300K to work in the O&G/Chem industry in Thailand.

I have given some figures (which I might point out are 'starting figures - at least and minimul') - I'll leave it to board members to believe or not believe those figures - up to you - If you took a job at less than Bht300K in the same industry then I can understand why you might be in denial about the available rates.

There is one TV member taking part in this discussion who knows me - He's certainly read what I posted and he has not chosen to conflict what I am saying or accuse me of dreaming up numbers.

Believe what you will and take a deal on Bht200~300K if you believe that is what you are worth.

[richm7]

120,000$ and you cant make it. something is very very wrong! you need to call suze orman 4 help. she can be seen weekends on cnbc in thailand.

Read it properly love. I'm keeping two homes.

[Maigo6]

"SOME OF YOU THINK YOU ARE NOT GETTING PAID WHAT YOU ARE WORTH..........................................................WELL BE GRATEFUL"

LOL...

Good one Phil.

[thaihome]

...since you could probably live on tea money for the rest of your life and just put the salary on the side for future bliss.

That is the crux of the matter, but then people are just way out of touch has to what the market is paying some professions these days.

A engineer with 20+ experience, particularly in a very technical area, such a licensed process, who is willing to relocate overseas, will get 300k all in easy. He probably gets close to 200k working at home.

That's per anum in USD not baht.

TH

Edited September 17, 2008 by thaihome

[Maigo6]

I met a guy once in a Bar in Pattaya, he was working ThaiOil in Sri Racha and used my mates bar , it was a regular drinking place for expat workers.

He was on 11,000 Pounds a Month and that must have been well over 12 - 13 years ago, it wasn't a long term contract, but I know he was earning very good money.

So for sure, there's money to be made if a company requires the skills you can provide.

Frank Lampard earns 36,000,000 Baht per month playing for Chelsea, so I guess compared to him and his ilk, we're all pizz poor!

Edited September 17, 2008 by Maigo6

[GuestHouse]

I think the point the OP needs to note is that while he (or other expats) may not be working in the O&G sector, it is the O&G/Financial sectors that set the rates for the big ticket items such as accommodation and schooling.

With regards to working overseas I take the view that its not worth doing unless long term you are stashing the cash - Financing some company by cutting your own standard of living is foolish - Foolhardy bordering on stupid if you are not able to save for your long term future or afford the education your children deserve.

Leave the mediocre pay to single bar flies.

[lifeisrandom]

They are offering a salary that is lower than what I would earn in the same position here in the US, but I know that the cost of living is lower in Thailand.

A clear sign that they expect to get you on the cheap.

For an expat jpb in Bangkok - At least US Salary + 25% + local living allowances at a minimum of Bht 100K per month + health insurance for your (and your family) + (Education at an international school for your children) + R&R leave flights for you (and your family) at least once a year.

If they are not offering something along these lines point them in the direction of the local bars where they'll find plenty of takers for low pay and low conditions.

I know one expat who took a local job, pay a bit less than back home, but happy to be in Thailand - The last time I spoke to him he told me he has not had a pay rise of seven years.

The expat job market in Thailand is tiny compared with the options you have back home - It's not just an issue of lower pay, but very few options to move on if you are not happy with the post.

Yep, I forgot housing and a car.

Hmm... what you describe sounds pretty juicy especially assuming the person actually wants to live in Thailand. And I guess many of the gentlemen can then say to their wife "See, we should live in Thailand because of these financial benefits..." although we know he probably has a differing picture in his mind of why he wants to live in Thailand...

[bendix]

Well then I suggest you stay in bed and content yourself with your dreams. As a well established major global company here I suspect that the 300 plus expats we employ are perhaps somewhat more realistic in their aspirations than yourself.

Not my aspiration mate I ACTUALLY get more than double your lowest figure working for a well established global company here, and as I said I'm the lowest paid Farang in the whole company.

My ASPIRATION is to work for the company in Laemchabang that is CURRENTLY paying their Farangs $1,400 PER DAY and providing accomodation, transport and airfares etc.

But if they are being paid daily, that's not really a salary is it? It's a daily rate for, presumably, contract or short term work. 48,000 daily contract rate is not particularly spectacular when you have no security of tenure.

[steveromagnino]

As a part Thai, I don't get access to the 'Expat package' but i do know some that do.

If this is a company like Rentakil, PCS or similar (who provide services like this) then yes, they do like a white man to do a bit of work for them and negotiate with the white man clients like hotels and so forth.

It is NOT O&G and there is little reason why they cannot find someone able to do this; skill in project management of this type of business is not particularly Thai specific; you probably don't need to be able to speak Thai if you are dealing with farang companies, and you WILL be competing against any general business person who has some experience in negotation of this sort of work.

My guess is $58k USD is impossible to live on. I make Thai wages, am single (sort of), eat local food, etc etc, and I need significantly more than that to fund the life to which I have become accustomed - and there are plenty of companies willing to pay it. With family, kids etc - would be a tough call to live on that.

How much more you can ask.....well let's face it PCS/Rentakil etc; it is a not insignificant industry cutting lawns and scrubbing toilets so they can simply go and find one of the other country manager regional manager types already here; essentially you are worth less to them (at a guess) than a person already here working for a competitor; but they know you, and they probably are lazy to go and try to headhunt; so you can get some sort of premium perhaps, but I don't know how much.

I have one farang friend in Phuket doing what you do; based on his lifestyle, family and personal interests, I'd have to guess he is making more than $58k USD, but nothing like the fantasy numbers being chucked around of $1400 USD per day. For you to justify your wage, you have to be aware he is a more senior you, that speaks Thai, works doing exactly what you do, and could be recruited to do the job you are applying for (I know the company he works for is UK based); so if you ask for $380k USD as is being suggested by some, they can probably hire him for like I don't know somewhere (total guess) $80-$100k USD ABSOLUTE MAX.

Bear in mind not everyone is from the UK/USA here; for a Kiwi or Aussie, a lot of the numbers being chucked around here would be off the charts for a Kiwi; there is a handful (as in probably 10 people or less) in the entire country employed and making that sort of money who aren't either working for the government or are CEOs. Cue nationalist agenda: Let's face it Kiwi/Aussie people adapt way better to generalist type jobs as required here in developing countries than USA/UK workers sometimes; tiny countries tend to produce generalists, large developed countries often produce specialists; that's why Kiwis/Ockers don't do nearly as well in New York/London etc for the most part, as their generalist skills are a whole lot less useful.

You can always ask, for most Thai people at my level $58k USD is actually pretty much local Thai wages type level; in your industry it might be higher, but at a senior level for the most part you don't see people earning 12,000b a month like some might lead you to believe.

If you think you are worth more, ask for it. But just bear in mind that you might not get quite to the level of the really sought after industries (one being the one that I know Bendix gets probably incredibly well paid for, another being O&G).

[lifeisrandom]

They will not pay huge salaries and school allowances, but they WILL pay significantly higher than local rates. I have no firm figures on this, but based on experiences in my old company I imagine the role would be paid around 200,000 a month for an expat?

A family of four cannot survive on 200,000 month by any reasonable expat standards.

I think anything under 700-800K would really be pushing it for a family of four as four business class plane tickets home will run you atleast 500k right there. a 3 bedroom condo will run upwards of 100k baht a month.

i am single and in my twenties and i am not a big spender and i live on about 200k baht a month.

Edited September 17, 2008 by lifeisrandom

[Maigo6]

They will not pay huge salaries and school allowances, but they WILL pay significantly higher than local rates. I have no firm figures on this, but based on experiences in my old company I imagine the role would be paid around 200,000 a month for an expat?

A family of four cannot survive on 200,000 month by any reasonable expat standards.

I think anything under 700-800K would really be pushing it for a family of four as four business class plane tickets home will run you atleast 500k right there. a 3 bedroom condo will run upwards of 100k baht a month.

i am single and in my twenties and i am not a big spender and i live on about 200k baht a month.

LOL........

Anything under 7 - 800,000 per month is pushing it ?

Haha...

[lifeisrandom]

for a family of 4 sure...

unless you want to cram your wife and kids into economy seats on a plane ride of 30 hrs....

international school costs 200-300k/kid/yr

rent would be about 1.2m/yr

flight home 500k /each trip

thats 2.3m baht right there

what about your home in the usa? do you sell it? keep making mortgage payments and rent payments? what about your car in usa? how much is storage?

there are zillion different expenses for an expat family which is obviously not the same as old farang dad and young isaan mom family of 4.

Edited September 17, 2008 by lifeisrandom

[LaReina]

DOH! And TEFL Teachers get from 30000 baht per month ? It certainly does not add up. At this level of money talks, that 30000tb should be per school child.

I have heard that some teachers are on well over 100,000 Baht per month, I wouldn't know if this is actually the case, some Teacher told me in a bar one night.

The 100,000 baht/month is actually true.. but for an international school, and a teacher with actual teaching experience in the West. But not all teachers in the same school will make this, and jealousy and spite runs deep when others find out how much more you make.

However the salary is based on ones negotiation skills prior to accepting the position.

In addition, some govts send teachers to teach in their govt subsidized schools. In such cases I would assume they are not taking a pay cut from their home pay.

[Spee]

He was on 11,000 Pounds a Month and that must have been well over 12 - 13 years ago, it wasn't a long term contract, but I know he was earning very good money.

Numbers need to be kept in perspective. 11k gbp/mo is certainly decent dosh but what does this really mean? Was this a base salary for 4, 40 hour weeks? I would say highly unlikely. Is this for working brutal hours like 300 hours (10x7 or 12x7 every day every month), billing by the hour, which works out to less than 40 gbp/hr? Again I would say highly unlikely. More than likely, it was probably some combination of things which works out to what sounds like a respectable total compensation package. The only numbers that really matter are how much is saved and how much is in the pocket at the end of the day, and has your expected standard of living stayed the same or improved.

Regardless, the simple fact remains that an expat deal should be in writing, including all relevant terms and conditions in sufficient detail, and agreed to in writing by both parties. This is especially true when it comes to tax equalization, where the individual is ultimately liable, not the company. Without a signed piece of paper, there is no deal. There is only a promise of day-to-day at-will employment. I would think there are few who would take an assignment under these circumstances. As for the salary, perks, and other components of a total compensation package, if they are acceptable to both parties, why should anyone else care?

If the employer offers only a bad deal, well shame on them. If the employee accepts a bad deal, well shame on them too. It's up to both parties to bargain in good faith and honor the agreements that they make.

Frankly, it makes no sense for a company to offer a crappy expat deal. Why bother hiring someone, sending them halfway around the world, only to find that they are all pissed off because they are only making half of what they should. All that person is going to do is cut corners to try to make up for the difference. If that happens to be ripping off the company by selling inventory out the back door, then what do they care? Anyone else who cares is probably half a world away. It's a much better situation to have all parties treated fairly and feeling like they have reached agreement on a reasonable deal.

What's that old saying? If all you are paying is peanuts, then all you will get is monkeys.