Police Fire Tear Gas At Protesters In Front Of Parliament

[MellowYellow]

The PAD was peaceful the policemen violent.

Examples of the PAD being peaceful.

-Organizing loud rabbles in BKK and other cities.

-Seizing control of airports

-Seizing control of governemnt buildings

-Combatting police (who have let them be for over 6 weeks) when police finally are ordered to disperse the unlawful assembly and occupations

-Carrying sticks, pipes, other tools for use in bludgeoning police

-Shooting Police

-Using Motor Vehicles to ram/run over police.

So, the PAD supporters will forgive ANY illegal act by PAD but loudly condemn Police for using force to retore law and order. What is the limit for PAD? What is NOT justified for them to do? It appears the apologists for the PAD rabble simply do not have ANY limits.

You folks can NOT have it both ways. The BS politics aside, until you turn your critical eye on your own group which has brought about the violent physical confrontation through their own acts your credibility slides, slides and slides.

[Jimjim]

Again, how daft do you have to be to nut have looked around in Thailand? See any of the political posters from Sunday's elections? Wow! sticks the right size! as for that one pipe I see ... ever see the conduiting around? simple pipe often that length Were there sticks in the street as the riot police started lobbing CS Gas? Probably not. But I bet 10 minutes later there wasn't a sign or placard to be found nearby!

How about the guns that PAD protesters used to shoot at police? Did they just find those guns just lying on the street? Get real, some PAD, possibly a minority, are always armed and ready for action. Obviously, some are also peaceful and don't bring weapons but may pick up the random stick. I'm sure plenty brought their golf clubs, pipes, etc. ahead of time.

There was a great post from some poster who was actually there and told what he saw (it's way back there and the poster was possibly called "Slapper"?). He reported many came prepared with weapons, albeit most of them crude like sticks with nails attached to the end.

The PAD are not completely innocent with regards to use of violence or anticipation of it, that's for sure. Obviously some just picked up crude weapons from the ground, etc. but some came prepared. I don't really see the argument. You can't just rely on one picture and rationalize away.

1) there are LOTS of pictures .. and many independent sources of information (in any of those pictures can you show me guns or sticks with nails being wielded by the PAD protesters?)

2) Golf clubs? I haven't seen any of those either! A stick or pipe gathered from the street makes far more sense ... not to mention who would damage a decent piece of sports equipment like that?

3)One report from a western reporter (independent source?) said he saw three guns in the PAD camp but did not give any more info such as were they being wielded on the lines or were they holstered and the property of bodyguards?

4) The reports of police being shot are not something I doubt ... I am not sure who shot them or under what circumstances. I would love for Khunying Pornthip to get involved in that aspect of this!

Look at ALL the pics of the protesters!

Listen, quit rationalizing things and making stretch arguments because for some reason you believe all PAD are just nonviolent pacifists. It's not so. I don't want to get into an argument over this but I'm not sure what the point of your argument is or why you are so passionate about it. That in the pictures you don't see golf clubs and guns so that means they were not there? You even said an AP reporter said he saw three guns. I'm sure he didn't see them all so there are probably more with guns. I'm saying a minority did come prepared. An eyewitness account like I said, Slapout's post I believe on page 23, said he saw people with sticks with nails on the end and people bringing golf clubs. It doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense to you, it happened. Go read it. Were you there? Even if you were, you can't know every detail in such a chaotic mess.

Oh, and what is Sondhi saying now? Clearly, some PAD are not afraid of violence and come prepared for it. If your argument is you cannot see evidence of premeditated weapons, it doesn't mean anything. You don't know where that pipe came from, etc. You assume a lot by thinking you know everything that went on just by looking at pictures and assuming that nobody came prepared with a pipe. You have no idea but are just rationalizing. You just want to argue that none of the PAD are violent and that is clearly not the case. It may be a small minority, but it's still there. And if they kill a police officer by shooting them, you can bet they are seriously putting the lives of many of the more nonviolent protesters at risk.

I am not defending the police and am saying the police are largely to blame for starting the violence and have killed protesters. The police are also lying about the weapons they used, I believe also. It's a horrible day and they have started a horrible mess. The police need to take the larger blame but the PAD are not completely innocent, either. But there are some in the PAD who came prepared for violence. If you don't believe that, it's merely because you don't want to. Anyway, have a nice day.

[Ricardo]

Any injuries, let alone deaths, on either side, are lamentable. But were they totally unexpected, when the orders were given, to go in with force to clear the PAD ?

Ricardo, let me tell you some little stories which did really happen.

In 1995, a member of my family who was doing his job as policeman and was guarding entrance to the National Bank in Madrid got blowed up by the ETA. He didn't want to fight with the ETA. He didn't want to be pulled in the mess the EAT was creating. He only want to do his job and earn some money to feed his family.

A decade later, a member of my family who was waiting for a commuter to bring him to work got blowed-up with thousand of other citizens. He didn't want to fight with the ETA. He didn't want to be pulled in the mess the EAT was creating. He only want to do his job and earn some money to feed his family.

Those "peaceful protesters" from the PAD have done actions which are against the Thai law and order and policeman who did not want to get involved in the mess the PAD created where dropped into an action by their superior.

IF you want to blame somebody for this mess. start to blame the PAD for having called everybody to create civil unrest and started to hostage a complete parliament.

Coalminer :-

1. Sorry to hear about your family-members.

2. If these border-police, new to Bangkok, were ordered by their superior to attack a then-peaceful protest, doesn't that superior carry some of the blame for the events that followed ? Mightn't that be why Deputy-PM Chavalit, who was supposed to be negotiating with the PAD, then resigned ?

3. I think I'm right in saying, when the police-action began, the parliament-members were not inside, so the police were not rescuing hostages at that point.

Peace.

[Jimjim]

Here is a picture of an anti-government protester with a gun.

[clausewitz]

Oh btw, just something that I confirmed with my co-worker earlier was that a few friends of ours departed for Bangkok to be the PAD Guard (Those dressed in black), you'll get paid 1,500/day.

Downside is, you obviously had to be in the front line, more risk of injuries.

Personally, even though I dislike the PAD, that's quite something to earn per day, plus the thrill and fun are there. Minus the ASTV propaganda that is full of lies and hatred, I guess some of the communities are sincere in wanting a fresh and pure Politics.

People who upholds to PAD should start opening up and accepts that some of the mobbers are hired, some doesnt really care about new politics, they just want something to smash or have fun or something.

In the present situation in Hat Yai, the merchants had maximized their radio's volume to spread ASTV's hatred propaganda around. I can hear the cursing, and even some lies around.

I dont wonder why people who are in the PAD seems to be like "brainwashed", it's just the 3rd day and I'm going crazy myself. Logically, it's similar to AmWay's positive propaganda, except that PAD sents out hatred messages.

Lastly, my friend who told me about it is a PAD supporter, I dont see why he had to lie to me of the 1,500 baht for Guard Jobs or even 500 baht to mob Bangkok.

Open up guys.

Our friend at the guard does not get 1 Baht....All the people we know at the mob don't get one Baht.

I off course don't tell that you lie! But it seems ONLY your friends get paid.

This is a quote from Sondhi, the leader of PAD. Do you still believe that they don't pay people to fight?

ATol: How much do your rallies cost per day?

Sondhi: One million baht [uS$29,000] inclusive, including everything, satellite time, staff.

ATol: Who gets compensated and who doesn't?

Sondhi: The volunteers don't get paid. Some of the personal security gets paid because they are the ex-policemen and ex-military. They are professionals.

[jdinasia]

Wow JimJim ...

I KNOW some people are prepared for violence. I would think that most people that stuck around from the Government House fiasco on have been prepared for violence. I, however, do not think they brought weapons with them to any significant extent. The weapons seen in ALL the pictures from ALL the sources just do not bear out the idea of a prepared armed mob!

I Know you would prefer that to be the case ... but look at the evidence!

some? yes some .... obviously not a significant number

[Seizhin]

That was a very lucky shot..

We know that half of the PAD Guards came from the military, but this has gone too far.

[jdinasia]

Oh btw, just something that I confirmed with my co-worker earlier was that a few friends of ours departed for Bangkok to be the PAD Guard (Those dressed in black), you'll get paid 1,500/day.

Downside is, you obviously had to be in the front line, more risk of injuries.

Personally, even though I dislike the PAD, that's quite something to earn per day, plus the thrill and fun are there. Minus the ASTV propaganda that is full of lies and hatred, I guess some of the communities are sincere in wanting a fresh and pure Politics.

People who upholds to PAD should start opening up and accepts that some of the mobbers are hired, some doesnt really care about new politics, they just want something to smash or have fun or something.

In the present situation in Hat Yai, the merchants had maximized their radio's volume to spread ASTV's hatred propaganda around. I can hear the cursing, and even some lies around.

I dont wonder why people who are in the PAD seems to be like "brainwashed", it's just the 3rd day and I'm going crazy myself. Logically, it's similar to AmWay's positive propaganda, except that PAD sents out hatred messages.

Lastly, my friend who told me about it is a PAD supporter, I dont see why he had to lie to me of the 1,500 baht for Guard Jobs or even 500 baht to mob Bangkok.

Open up guys.

Our friend at the guard does not get 1 Baht....All the people we know at the mob don't get one Baht.

I off course don't tell that you lie! But it seems ONLY your friends get paid.

This is a quote from Sondhi, the leader of PAD. Do you still believe that they don't pay people to fight?

ATol: How much do your rallies cost per day?

Sondhi: One million baht [uS$29,000] inclusive, including everything, satellite time, staff.

ATol: Who gets compensated and who doesn't?

Sondhi: The volunteers don't get paid. Some of the personal security gets paid because they are the ex-policemen and ex-military. They are professionals.

Go back in ... and look for the rest of the info there ... (you only have to look back in this thread. He is referring to the personal bodyguard of the leaders that they pay for themselves. Re: how much it costs? He is talking about billing the rally for the employees and equipment and costs of ASTV

tacky to misquote that way ....

[MellowYellow]

2. If these border-police, new to Bangkok, were ordered by their superior to attack a then-peaceful protest...

Peace.

If by attack you mean restore order to public buildings and the surrounding public roads after patiently waiting for >6 weeks and asking numerous times with no force then ok

If by then-peaceful you mean a partially paid rabble with at least some armed members who have been illegally occupying different public buildings and institutions for >6 weeks and then respond with violence when the police attempt to legally disperse them then ok

The violence and the injuries do not occur of the PAD rabble disperses

when

-The government asks them to disperse (whether the government is valid is a matter for the courts and the constitution to decide NOT an angry street rabble)

-The government enters discussions with them and then asks them to disperse

-The rabble effects the removal of the chosen PM then the government asks them to disperse

-Government attempts to convene and the rabble mobs yet another public building

-Police ask them to disperse

-Police use limited force to disperse them

All these points in time PAD has chosen to continue the fight on the streets as a rabble vice thru democratic or legal means. The burden of responsibilty for injuries/casualties ultimately lies with the PAD and it's leadership who have continually chosen street confrontation as it's primary method of implementing change vice using the democratic and legal framework.

Violence begets violence. The actions of The PAD have been screaming for forceful response for weeks now. To all but the most blindered cause zealots the resposibility lies squarely at the PAD leadership's feet.

Edited October 8, 2008 by MellowYellow

[Seizhin]

This is a quote from Sondhi, the leader of PAD. Do you still believe that they don't pay people to fight?

ATol: How much do your rallies cost per day?

Sondhi: One million baht [uS$29,000] inclusive, including everything, satellite time, staff.

ATol: Who gets compensated and who doesn't?

Sondhi: The volunteers don't get paid. Some of the personal security gets paid because they are the ex-policemen and ex-military. They are professionals.

1 million!? That sounds too low.

Regardless, Military General Phallob (spl?) is backing him up, so I can guess that some of the guards are from Phallob's division.

[jdinasia]

Here is a picture of an anti-government protester with a gun.

Great pic ... maybe even real! maybe even a real gun! (I will give ground on a pic of what appears to be a protester and what appears to be a gun!) Kind of odd that the gun is the only thing in focus in the whole picture and that it was a video capture from TV ...

We do know that planting people in the opposition to escalate things and provide the government with an excuse to attack would be in character for Chevalit

[Seizhin]

The picture was from AP wasnt it? I dont think AP benefits from posting any lies, they're world organization after all.

[Jimjim]

Wow JimJim ...

I KNOW some people are prepared for violence. I would think that most people that stuck around from the Government House fiasco on have been prepared for violence. I, however, do not think they brought weapons with them to any significant extent. The weapons seen in ALL the pictures from ALL the sources just do not bear out the idea of a prepared armed mob!

I Know you would prefer that to be the case ... but look at the evidence!

some? yes some .... obviously not a significant number

I think you just like to argue for fun. I'd prefer what to be the case? That some came prepared for violence? No, I would prefer no violence but it's true that many PAD want it. Perhaps a minority, but an important one. Clearly, many are just middle class people, men, women, children with only clappers and anger with which to fight.

I gave you evidence already. A picture of a man with a gun, eyewitness accounts, etc. I said "some" and even "minority" too. So why are we arguing? It seems like we agree. The fact is neither of us really know how many. There are a lot of protesters and many brought weapons. Sondhi is now endorsing violence. The point is, it just seemed like you're making it out they were not prepared for violence at all when many of them quite obviously were and still are. You also are just wildly guessing if all those who had weapons in their hands did not bring them in advance. Many of them surely did. Just don't belittle and underestimate the fact that they are ready to do some damage. It's significant and not isolated cases.

...look at the evidence! Did you read that post on page 23 by Slapout? Very enlightening that he said many came prepared with crude weapons and he is on their side, essentially. And the pictures don't tell the whole story. ALL the pictures do not show EVERYTHING that happened (just taking the piss with the caps, sorry).

Some even came prepared with goggles for the eminent tear gassing. So, while they are not all aggressors, they are ready for violence.

I'm not saying they were a prepared armed mob but an important core is a prepared armed mob and are not afraid to back down. Why are you arguing with that? It seems like we are saying the same thing. Also notice how they turned over police vans, etc. This is getting serious and they are not backing down, so all I'm saying is they are not pacifists and you don't need to try to defend them as such. There are some crazy guys in the PAD who are ready for violence, I think, and it's important to note that. That's all I am trying to say. Nothing more.

Anyway, I think we basically agree but it seems like you are trying to downplay the violent part of PAD and I'm merely saying it's important not to do so.

edit: Oh, and to use your words, it's tacky to be so cynical about the shot of the gun. We've already established and you've conceded that some of them have guns. Don't be so skeptical. You clearly seem to have a bias whereas I'm just calling it as I see it. Using the same logic, I guess that tear gas I see in pictures is just pretend, right?

Edited October 8, 2008 by Jimjim

[sjaak327]

It would at least be nice, that people who still continue (after much evidence to the contrary) to say these are peacefull protest, to maybe get their heads out of where ever they have sticked it in ?

There are many photo's of PAD followers beating police, apparently even ran cars over them. Remember the DAAD/PAD confrontation, hardly peacefull.

Even Sondhi admits to a large security force, if it was all peacefull, why spend the money on such a force, it just doesn't make sense.

It would really be good if the government and the police would have dealt with these people from day one, but they have left them there for over 6 weeks, now apparently enough is enough, and rightly so. Now if police would be so nice and hail that coward Sondhi out of governement house, and bring him to justice, that might stop any more unnesessary violence.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

It would at least be nice, that people who still continue (after much evidence to the contrary) to say these are peacefull protest, to maybe get their heads out of where ever they have sticked it in ?

There are many photo's of PAD followers beating police, apparently even ran cars over them. Remember the DAAD/PAD confrontation, hardly peacefull.

Even Sondhi admits to a large security force, if it was all peacefull, why spend the money on such a force, it just doesn't make sense.

It would really be good if the government and the police would have dealt with these people from day one, but they have left them there for over 6 weeks, now apparently enough is enough, and rightly so. Now if police would be so nice and hail that coward Sondhi out of governement house, and bring him to justice, that might stop any more unnesessary violence.

Hear hear. You'd think that would be pointing out the bloody obvious.

Enough is enough, let PAD either become a political party, or find legal ways to voice their opinions to which they're entitled under even this flawed constitution.

[cmsally]

This I find absolutely disgusting.

Nation

Anyone want to take bets on whether they are cleared?

Bangkok Post

[Old Man River]

It would at least be nice, that people who still continue (after much evidence to the contrary) to say these are peacefull protest, to maybe get their heads out of where ever they have sticked it in ?

There are many photo's of PAD followers beating police, apparently even ran cars over them. Remember the DAAD/PAD confrontation, hardly peacefull.

Even Sondhi admits to a large security force, if it was all peacefull, why spend the money on such a force, it just doesn't make sense.

It would really be good if the government and the police would have dealt with these people from day one, but they have left them there for over 6 weeks, now apparently enough is enough, and rightly so. Now if police would be so nice and hail that coward Sondhi out of governement house, and bring him to justice, that might stop any more unnesessary violence.

It certainly wouldn't have been appropriate to let them stay forever, but the police had no business to attack them as they did. They mishandled this badly. Were any warnings given whatsoever? Did the police really think those people were threats to their safety? What was that young girl who they have maimed for life going to do, hit them with her purse?

This wasn't crowd control. It was revenge against these people for getting into government house in the first place.

[frodo]

Police allege woman killed by her own bomb

Autopsy report has made police suspect 25-year-old Angkana Radapbanyavuth died because of a bomb she was carrying, police deputy spokesman said.

Pol Maj General Surapol Thuanthong, deputy spokesman of the royal Thai Police, said, "The autopsy report showed Angkana's left ribs were all broken. It could be so because of holding a bomb with her underarms or carrying a bomb in her bag. The injuries were too severe to be caused by the weapons police was carrying."

The Nation

I hope they allow Dr. Porntip to also do an autopsy. Very strange how the police conclude that PAD members continued to blow themselves up. Unreal

[hammered]

Police allege woman killed by her own bomb

Autopsy report has made police suspect 25-year-old Angkana Radapbanyavuth died because of a bomb she was carrying, police deputy spokesman said.

Pol Maj General Surapol Thuanthong, deputy spokesman of the royal Thai Police, said, "The autopsy report showed Angkana's left ribs were all broken. It could be so because of holding a bomb with her underarms or carrying a bomb in her bag. The injuries were too severe to be caused by the weapons police was carrying."

The Nation

I hope they allow Dr. Porntip to also do an autopsy. Very strange how the police conclude that PAD members continued to blow themselves up. Unreal

Independent autopsies are required. The police are an accused party in this and are not impartial

[Plus]

There will be no independent inquiry, let alone independent autopsy, not with PPP in power. Make no mistakes about it.

The only investigation would be by journalists quoting their usual unanimous sources.

[jdinasia]

Even Sondhi admits to a large security force, if it was all peacefull, why spend the money on such a force, it just doesn't make sense.

...... that coward Sondhi out of governement house, and bring him to justice.....

A large security force? The leaders have some paid professional bodyguards ... and then there are the folks at the barricades ... the volunteers. What large security force are you referring to?

The 'coward' Sondhi? He's a coward now? he's been standing up to corruption and POWER oft times on his own, for years! Maybe you don't remember the rallies at at Lumpini Park ...

[frodo]

There will be no independent inquiry, let alone independent autopsy, not with PPP in power. Make no mistakes about it.

The only investigation would be by journalists quoting their usual unanimous sources.

You're probably right about that. What a shame.

[jdinasia]

Police allege woman killed by her own bomb

Autopsy report has made police suspect 25-year-old Angkana Radapbanyavuth died because of a bomb she was carrying, police deputy spokesman said.

Pol Maj General Surapol Thuanthong, deputy spokesman of the royal Thai Police, said, "The autopsy report showed Angkana's left ribs were all broken. It could be so because of holding a bomb with her underarms or carrying a bomb in her bag. The injuries were too severe to be caused by the weapons police was carrying."

The Nation

And it could be that space aliens came down and smacked her with a special hammer ..........

The autopsy report showed that her left ribs were broken was the only 'fact' in that article

[h90]

[

They fail to respect majority, and demands their wishes to happen.

So in other word, PAD claims that the government is an illegal government, thus the PAD themselves uses illegal acts to subdue the illegal? There's no way for those to be legal.

Most of Thais is far too uncivilized, failure to respect the majority and law, claiming that the present 'law' are stupid. When you dont respect law, how can there be a proper country?

There is no "majority" as such for the government! It is a installed proxie of the TRT by massive manipulation, to full fill a multi billionaires dreams and wishes to come true!

regarding your point of the illegal acts to subdue illegal acts are illegal and remain illegal: you human rights vison would make a police man drawing his gun on an armed man opposing his arrest illegal too, yes?

and your point about "uncivilized" thai people and the reasoning thereof, makes me feel sick!

So you're saying that the 20 million votes from the whole country isnt a majority?

I've never said the police were right, but the PAD wasnt right either!

That's why I'm telling you PAD supporters to open up to other people's opinion, especially the people who cares more for the country than PAD or Thaskin, you're a good example of someone who adopted communism despite of what the real People's Alliance of Democracy means.

You are right 1500 Baht a day is an unbelievable amount to get paid. Are you really posting from Had yai?

I am posting from Hat Yai.

Where do you have the 20 millions from??

here you have the real results

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_general_election,_2007

PPP was the strongest party but did not have a majority

Strongest party, and most senators, but wasnt enough to establish a government, however, PPP still has more Senators than Democrats and any other political parties.

Dont you think that's more than enough to call them 'majority' ?

I am not a native english speaker so I might be wrong, but in my opinion is a majority if you have more than 50 %.

[sjaak327]

Even Sondhi admits to a large security force, if it was all peacefull, why spend the money on such a force, it just doesn't make sense.

...... that coward Sondhi out of governement house, and bring him to justice.....

A large security force? The leaders have some paid professional bodyguards ... and then there are the folks at the barricades ... the volunteers. What large security force are you referring to?

The 'coward' Sondhi? He's a coward now? he's been standing up to corruption and POWER oft times on his own, for years! Maybe you don't remember the rallies at at Lumpini Park ...

Indeed he is a coward, why wasn't he at the barricades then, at his self proclaimed, final battle. A coward, a cheat, who is not an inch better then the man he forcefully fights, the minute it became apparent to him, that he wasn't going to help him to get rid of some debts here and there. He himself is corrupt to the core. Please don't make me laugh.

[beammeup]

The whole thing is a convenient smoke screen for Mt T in London. How hard would it be to plant a few baddies on both sides to creat this type of chaos??

[h90]

This I find absolutely disgusting.

Nation

Anyone want to take bets on whether they are cleared?

Bangkok Post

For the nation I heard on TOC that this does not count for serious problems which brings the life in danger. just they won't treat the hurting finger after pulling the trigger to many times.

[catmac]

Bumping PPP MP's off of THAI flights is one thing... (a rather funny one, at that), but this is completely, inexcusably and unequivocally wrong... and the license of any physician who participates should be immediately pulled....

Chulalongkorn doctors boycott police

Doctors of the Chulalongkorn Hospital Wednesday refused to treat police injured during Tuesday's clashes with protesters.

Doctor Suthep Kolcharnwit of the hospital's medical school said the boycott of police was a measure to denounce police's use of excessive violence against the protesters.

Suthep said Chulalongkorn doctors would seek cooperation from doctors of other hospitals to boycott police as well.

- The Nation / 2008-10-08

Well if you are a doctor you are supposed to help the injured no matter what. But would you seek help from a doctor that hates your guts?

He's no doctor if he allows his personal political beliefs to interfere with his rendering of medical care.

If he does, he needs his license jerked on the spot and another physician takes the case.

And yes, physicians are supposed to treat any and all patients. Any one that doesn't is no physician.

SJ, for once I am totally in agreement with you. Thank you most sincerely for posting this info. In all my life I have never heard of such a despicable act by so-called physicians, nor have I seen such grovelling attempts to excuse their actions by some posters on this forum. For Heavens sake, we may disagree with each other re PAD/PPP, but to refuse to treat an injured person is just sick beyond belief.

[sylviex]

Oh btw, just something that I confirmed with my co-worker earlier was that a few friends of ours departed for Bangkok to be the PAD Guard (Those dressed in black), you'll get paid 1,500/day.

Ah. Thank you. Both the woman with the injured foot and the man with the more severely injured leg were in black. I wondered about the significance of that.

[sylviex]

SJ, for once I am totally in agreement with you. Thank you most sincerely for posting this info. In all my life I have never heard of such a despicable act by so-called physicians, nor have I seen such grovelling attempts to excuse their actions by some posters on this forum. For Heavens sake, we may disagree with each other re PAD/PPP, but to refuse to treat an injured person is just sick beyond belief

This thread, and the story behind it, are a glorious tribute to human blindness.