Where Is Gold Going In This Market

[churchill]

China .... I don't think they are selling ..

'In the database I found ZERO matches for Chinese-manufactured gold bars in the GLD records, and also extended the query to see if other vaults had any. I was mildly surprised to find NONE ... surprising because our current gold sample size includesdata from not just HSBC London vault, but also Royal Canadian Mint and Via Mat (London, Hong Kong and Zurich). Worth mentioning that although our database is large, there are still some data sets we have not yet loaded (like the Julius Baer Precious Metals Fund data, for example) so the conclusion is not yet complete'

http://screwtapefiles.blogspot.com/2012/10/database-confirms-max-keiser-guest.html

So China accumulates , russia buys others buy ... most central banks stop selling ..officially , european governments worry whether their gold still exists .. has not been leased ... seems governments although in debt want gold .. Why ... .. perhaps an ounce of gold is and will be worth more in the future than the equivalent dong .. or a dollar .

And in Vietnam banks are having to buy back the gold they sold ... http://www.businessinsider.com/vietnam-banks-gold-dividends-2012-10

the start of a trend .... prices going ....up or down ...

[midas]

what are the implications whether central bank gold hoards exist or don't? thoughts please!

you sound just like the guys from Yoshiwara’s favourite forum source of information – CNBC !

what rubbish are you talking? i asked a justified question followed by a question mark (?).

either come up with an answer or just shut up! your nonsensical diversions when you have

nothing tangible to say are very boring.

the minimum i expect from you is copying and pasting rubbish² from "Gold Councils",

"Kingworld News" or excerpts what famous and renowned "experts" revealed in interviews

with the precious metal editor of magazines like "The Happy Silver Miner" and "We Is All Doomed!"

Well you ask the most ridiculously dumb question

but then what do you expect from someone with such a naïve belief in fiat currency

[Naam]

what are the implications whether central bank gold hoards exist or don't? thoughts please!

you sound just like the guys from Yoshiwara’s favourite forum source of information – CNBC !

what rubbish are you talking? i asked a justified question followed by a question mark (?).

either come up with an answer or just shut up! your nonsensical diversions when you have

nothing tangible to say are very boring.

the minimum i expect from you is copying and pasting rubbish² from "Gold Councils",

"Kingworld News" or excerpts what famous and renowned "experts" revealed in interviews

with the precious metal editor of magazines like "The Happy Silver Miner" and "We Is All Doomed!"

Well you ask the most ridiculously dumb question

but then what do you expect from someone with such a naïve belief in fiat currency

again rubbish and trying to divert.

[Naam]

what are the implications whether central bank gold hoards exist or don't? thoughts please!

1. I think there are 2 issues to consider. 1 is the leasing of the physical gold and over short selling of gold that doesn't exist. If they are leveraging the physical to short many times that amount than that would go to explain the price suppression scheme that many claim is going on. The implication of the scheme unfolding is that the price increases to a more natural level based on true supply and demand.

2. The other issue to consider is that the bank has sold the gold it claims on it's books and it no longer exists in the vault. I find this situation to be less likely. I don't think they will open say fort Knox and find it empty. Or find that the wall of gold we were fantasizing about is just a fake or mirage. But if that was the case then I think the implication would be that the banks have flat out lied, not having the assets they claim to have and this could/would cause a loss of confidence in the banking system. Since the current banking system exists based mostly on confidence, this new lack of confidence could then lead to a failure in the system and subsequent crash.

1. i fail to see any logic in "Bundesbank shorting Gold to suppress its price". what could be a valid reason that a central is interested in the price of gold? many years ago, in the 70s, there was a tug-of-war between the Bundesbank and the German government because the Bundesbank refused to value gold at market price which in turn would have forced it to transfer a certain percentage of the profit to be wasted by the government. but the latter (transfer of unrealised book profits on assets held) is settled and does not apply anymore.

2. the individual European central banks are not involved in any PIIGS bail-out. but the ECB is depending on the good will (hard cash and mostly promises) from the various EU countries. therefore i have to agree that "lack of gold equals lack of confidence" which may lead subsequently to a crash.

thanks for taking your time to bother with my (according to Midas) "most ridiculously dumb question".

[Naam]

'The other issue to consider is that the bank has sold the gold it claims on it's books and it no longer exists in the vault. '

Easy to do .. temptation .. profits ...look towards ....Vietnam

hold your horses Prime Minister. a central bank like the Bundesbank and its bankers are not after profits and the Bundesbankers are government employees not entitled to any profit share. comparing ordinary banks like those cheats in Viet Nam with a central bank is too far-fetched.

[churchill]

'The other issue to consider is that the bank has sold the gold it claims on it's books and it no longer exists in the vault. '

Easy to do .. temptation .. profits ...look towards ....Vietnam

hold your horses Prime Minister. a central bank like the Bundesbank and its bankers are not after profits and the Bundesbankers are government employees not entitled to any profit share. comparing ordinary banks like those cheats in Viet Nam with a central bank is too far-fetched.

Your Bundesbank does not have as much faith in the BOE .. as you do

[mccw]

what are the implications whether central bank gold hoards exist or don't? thoughts please!

1. I think there are 2 issues to consider. 1 is the leasing of the physical gold and over short selling of gold that doesn't exist. If they are leveraging the physical to short many times that amount than that would go to explain the price suppression scheme that many claim is going on. The implication of the scheme unfolding is that the price increases to a more natural level based on true supply and demand.

2. The other issue to consider is that the bank has sold the gold it claims on it's books and it no longer exists in the vault. I find this situation to be less likely. I don't think they will open say fort Knox and find it empty. Or find that the wall of gold we were fantasizing about is just a fake or mirage. But if that was the case then I think the implication would be that the banks have flat out lied, not having the assets they claim to have and this could/would cause a loss of confidence in the banking system. Since the current banking system exists based mostly on confidence, this new lack of confidence could then lead to a failure in the system and subsequent crash.

1. i fail to see any logic in "Bundesbank shorting Gold to suppress its price". what could be a valid reason that a central is interested in the price of gold? many years ago, in the 70s, there was a tug-of-war between the Bundesbank and the German government because the Bundesbank refused to value gold at market price which in turn would have forced it to transfer a certain percentage of the profit to be wasted by the government. but the latter (transfer of unrealised book profits on assets held) is settled and does not apply anymore.

.

Logical to keep gold down so government bond are still attractive. If gold is viewed as the real safe haven and a run from cash then on comes the crash

[midas]

Ok if Naam is allowed to ask dumb questions I'm going to ask one -here it is in 2 parts :-

( a ) no one is allowed to see the gold supposedly stored inside Fort Knox. Not even the United States Congressmen and Senators.

Why? What practical benefit is there for denying access to verify exactly what is there?

( b )

Virtually every government body, company and entity throughout the world has to be audited regularly - sometimes annually.

So how come this supposed gold in Fort Knox which is regarded so highly by central bankers in more than one country is not subject to the same scrutiny of auditors on a regular basis?

Edited October 27, 2012 by midas

[Jayman]

what are the implications whether central bank gold hoards exist or don't? thoughts please!

1. I think there are 2 issues to consider. 1 is the leasing of the physical gold and over short selling of gold that doesn't exist. If they are leveraging the physical to short many times that amount than that would go to explain the price suppression scheme that many claim is going on. The implication of the scheme unfolding is that the price increases to a more natural level based on true supply and demand.

2. The other issue to consider is that the bank has sold the gold it claims on it's books and it no longer exists in the vault. I find this situation to be less likely. I don't think they will open say fort Knox and find it empty. Or find that the wall of gold we were fantasizing about is just a fake or mirage. But if that was the case then I think the implication would be that the banks have flat out lied, not having the assets they claim to have and this could/would cause a loss of confidence in the banking system. Since the current banking system exists based mostly on confidence, this new lack of confidence could then lead to a failure in the system and subsequent crash.

1. i fail to see any logic in "Bundesbank shorting Gold to suppress its price". what could be a valid reason that a central is interested in the price of gold? many years ago, in the 70s, there was a tug-of-war between the Bundesbank and the German government because the Bundesbank refused to value gold at market price which in turn would have forced it to transfer a certain percentage of the profit to be wasted by the government. but the latter (transfer of unrealised book profits on assets held) is settled and does not apply anymore.

The reason why a central bank would want to lower the value of gold is to keep the appearance value of their fiat currency high. If the value of gold goes through the roof then it will become very clear that fiat is worth very little. That is the reasoning behind the gold price suppression scheme. To continue the devaluing fiat scheme (currency war) as long as they can without alarming the masses and causing a panic (loss in confidence and then triggering a failure in the current banking scheme.

mccw said it well here

Logical to keep gold down so government bond are still attractive. If gold is viewed as the real safe haven and a run from cash then on comes the crash

Edited October 27, 2012 by Jayman

[Jayman]

Ok if Naam is allowed to ask dumb questions I'm going to ask one -here it is in 2 parts :-

( a ) no one is allowed to see the gold supposedly stored inside Fort Knox. Not even the United States Congressmen and Senators.

Why? What practical benefit is there for denying access to verify exactly what is there?

( b )

Virtually every government body, company and entity throughout the world has to be audited regularly - sometimes annually.

So how come this supposed gold in Fort Knox which is regarded so highly by central bankers in more than one country is not subject to the same scrutiny of auditors on a regular basis?

Is not such a stupid question. The gold transactions for the US are considered "top secret" as they pertain to national security. That is why it's never discussed and no audits take place. With such secrecy, we are left to speculate why this is considered a matter of national security.

[Jayman]

-- CNBC Senior Editor John Carney stumbled onto a point often made by GATA about the unreliability of central bank claims about gold vaulting. In reference to the foreign gold vaulted at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, Carney wrote:

"The compartments do not have labels reading 'Germany's gold' and so on. They are instead numbered, and only a few people at the Fed know what numbers correspond to which country. The Fed says it does this to protect the privacy of the depositors. But this also makes actual inspection less reliable. There's no way for Germany to know that the gold it is being shown is Germany's, as opposed to some other depositor's. In an extreme case -- which I have no reason to believe is true -- miscreants at the Fed could just show everyone who came to visit the same pile of gold."

Of course mere "miscreants" at the Fed are hardly the problem; the problem is policy throughout Western central banking that, in support of the gold price suppression scheme, facilitates the double-counting (or multiple-counting) of gold reserves.

For example, the International Monetary Fund long has allowed central bank members to count leased gold as if it is still in the vault of the bank leasing it. Thus multiple claims develop to the same gold and the world's gold supply is perceived to be larger than it really is, suppressing the gold price.

The same thing happens with the major gold and silver exchange-traded funds when their shares are allowed to be borrowed and shorted -- multiple claims develop to the same gold. There is much suspicion about the major gold and silver ETFs, GLD and SLV, because of the grotesque conflicts of interest on which they operate, the custodian of GLD's gold being HSBC, the world's biggest gold shorter, and the custodian of SLV's silver, JPMorganChase & Co., being the world's biggest silver shorter.

The London Bullion Market Association runs a fractional-reserve gold banking system in which claims are issued against gold that is not in the possession of the issuer of the claim. This too increases the perception of the world's gold supply and suppresses the price.

The great disparagement about gold in recent years has been that even with its strong price appreciation it has not kept up with inflation over the longer term. The most likely explanation for gold's failure to keep up with inflation is the creation by bullion banks, backstopped by central banks, of a vast imaginary supply, "paper gold." The fear of paper gold is behind the growing belief in Germany that the country should repatriate its gold reserve.

As central banks are the issuers of currencies that compete with the natural currencies, gold and silver, they have a powerful interest in controlling and weakening their competitors. As the issuers of claims to monetary metal they don't possess, bullion banks have an identical interest.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Jayman

[Naam]

'The other issue to consider is that the bank has sold the gold it claims on it's books and it no longer exists in the vault. '

Easy to do .. temptation .. profits ...look towards ....Vietnam

hold your horses Prime Minister. a central bank like the Bundesbank and its bankers are not after profits and the Bundesbankers are government employees not entitled to any profit share. comparing ordinary banks like those cheats in Viet Nam with a central bank is too far-fetched.

Your Bundesbank does not have as much faith in the BOE .. as you do

usual irrelevant remark. you tried to compare "my" Bundesbank with some shitty Viet Nam private banks and now you turn around and insinuate that i have faith in the BoE. i wonder whether you handle your investments as "straight" as your argumentation

[yoshiwara]

Logical to keep gold down so government bond are still attractive. If gold is viewed as the real safe haven and a run from cash then on comes the crash

Yours and loony gold bug website speculation woven into logical 'therefores'

[mccw]

-- CNBC Senior Editor John Carney stumbled onto a point often made by GATA about the unreliability of central bank claims about gold vaulting. In reference to the foreign gold vaulted at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, Carney wrote:

"The compartments do not have labels reading 'Germany's gold' and so on. They are instead numbered, and only a few people at the Fed know what numbers correspond to which country. The Fed says it does this to protect the privacy of the depositors. But this also makes actual inspection less reliable. There's no way for Germany to know that the gold it is being shown is Germany's, as opposed to some other depositor's. In an extreme case -- which I have no reason to believe is true -- miscreants at the Fed could just show everyone who came to visit the same pile of gold."

Of course mere "miscreants" at the Fed are hardly the problem; the problem is policy throughout Western central banking that, in support of the gold price suppression scheme, facilitates the double-counting (or multiple-counting) of gold reserves.

For example, the International Monetary Fund long has allowed central bank members to count leased gold as if it is still in the vault of the bank leasing it. Thus multiple claims develop to the same gold and the world's gold supply is perceived to be larger than it really is, suppressing the gold price.

The same thing happens with the major gold and silver exchange-traded funds when their shares are allowed to be borrowed and shorted -- multiple claims develop to the same gold. There is much suspicion about the major gold and silver ETFs, GLD and SLV, because of the grotesque conflicts of interest on which they operate, the custodian of GLD's gold being HSBC, the world's biggest gold shorter, and the custodian of SLV's silver, JPMorganChase & Co., being the world's biggest silver shorter.

The London Bullion Market Association runs a fractional-reserve gold banking system in which claims are issued against gold that is not in the possession of the issuer of the claim. This too increases the perception of the world's gold supply and suppresses the price.

The great disparagement about gold in recent years has been that even with its strong price appreciation it has not kept up with inflation over the longer term. The most likely explanation for gold's failure to keep up with inflation is the creation by bullion banks, backstopped by central banks, of a vast imaginary supply, "paper gold." The fear of paper gold is behind the growing belief in Germany that the country should repatriate its gold reserve.

As central banks are the issuers of currencies that compete with the natural currencies, gold and silver, they have a powerful interest in controlling and weakening their competitors. As the issuers of claims to monetary metal they don't possess, bullion banks have an identical interest.

Good one; exactly what I was trying to say in a nut shell.

[midas]

Ok if Naam is allowed to ask dumb questions I'm going to ask one -here it is in 2 parts :-

( a ) no one is allowed to see the gold supposedly stored inside Fort Knox. Not even the United States Congressmen and Senators.

Why? What practical benefit is there for denying access to verify exactly what is there?

( b )

Virtually every government body, company and entity throughout the world has to be audited regularly - sometimes annually.

So how come this supposed gold in Fort Knox which is regarded so highly by central bankers in more than one country is not subject to the same scrutiny of auditors on a regular basis?

Is not such a stupid question. The gold transactions for the US are considered "top secret" as they pertain to national security. That is why it's never discussed and no audits take place. With such secrecy, we are left to speculate why this is considered a matter of national security.

so it is in the interests of national security not to allow America's elected politicians to see the gold?

Isn't it time for people to become less trusting of this situation? For a start do those in control deserve to be trusted based on recent performance?

No one can see or audit the Federal reserve, no one can can see or audit the gold at Fort Knox

People are just expect to believe like fantasyland that those in control of the financial system in USA are honest and trustworthy and are not just looking after their own interests?

This is such a load of b*ll that I can't believe people have fallen for it for so long

Edited October 28, 2012 by midas

[yoshiwara]

The Ron Paul gold bug hysteria about Fort Knox surfaces every so often like a flogged horse to be put on the same shelf as the 9-11 conspiracy stories and who shot JFK.

Why? to whip themselves up into a fizz like Whirling Dervishes.

[midas]

The Ron Paul gold bug hysteria about Fort Knox surfaces every so often like a flogged horse to be put on the same shelf as the 9-11 conspiracy stories and who shot JFK.

Why? to whip themselves up into a fizz like Whirling Dervishes.

people once had utmost faith in Enron

How many ounces of fine tungsten are in central banks and treasuries?

[mccw]

"A small company near Paris has pioneered technology which can "turn water into gold." Other precious metals such as platinum, palladium and rhodium can also be extracted using the same methods.

Magpie Polymers, based 80 kilometers southeast of Paris, has developed the technology from a procedure perfected by the prestigious Swiss Ecole Polytechnique in 2007.

The process uses tiny pellets of plastic resin though which waste water is pumped. Gold, platinum and other precious metals gradually stick to the pellets and are in this way separated from the waste water.

A single liter of this patented resin can treat five to ten cubic meters of waste water and recover 50 to 100 grams of precious metal, which according to Magpie is equivalent to 3,000 to 5,000 euro in value.

Dutchman Steve van Zutphen, who co-founded Magpie Polymers last year with Frenchman Etienne Almoric, explained to Agence France-Presse, We leave only a microgram per liter; its the equivalent of a sugar lump in an Olympic swimming pool.

Precious metals are contained in small amounts in many everyday products, such as mobile phones and catalytic converters. But once these objects are scrapped, the problem lies in retrieving the particles of precious metals.

Once they have been separated and crushed, some industrial waste products have to be dissolved with acid in water. Then the metals in the water have to be recovered, regardless of their value.

What is complicated is the amounts are infinitesimal, so hard to recover, Van Zupten explained.

There are many technologies to get metal from water that have existed since the nineteenth century.But there comes a moment when existing technologies are no longer effective, or become too expensive, he continued.

The entrepreneurs are already looking to the refining market specialists in the recovery of precious metals, like the Anglo-French company Cookson-Clal.

But they are also hoping their technology may be of interest to mining firms or large water treatment companies such as the French Suez Environment.

As demand for precious metals increases, combined with increasing shortages platinum mines are becoming exhausted and half the platinum used worldwide is already recycled prices have soared. Their timing could not be better.

Magpies innovative technology can also be used to leach out harmful but more common metals such as lead, mercury, cobalt, copper and uranium. But as of yet, nobody wants to pay for metals like these.

However, tougher environmental standards, which would further tighten the rules for the recovery of waste metal, could further add strength to Magpies business.

The ambitious new company has just taken on six staff, and hopes for a turnover of nearly a million euro next year and 15 million more in four years time." -RT app

Edited October 28, 2012 by mccw

[Jayman]

"A small company near Paris has pioneered technology which can "turn water into gold."

uhh.. yeah right.. lets start our story with a preposterous statement and see how the reader will even believe anything else that is said.

[Naam]

"A small company near Paris has pioneered technology which can "turn water into gold."

uhh.. yeah right.. lets start our story with a preposterous statement and see how the reader will even believe anything else that is said.

this "invention" was brought up by "AlexLah" a couple of years ago and discussed in this thread.

[Jayman]

"A small company near Paris has pioneered technology which can "turn water into gold."

uhh.. yeah right.. lets start our story with a preposterous statement and see how the reader will even believe anything else that is said.

this "invention" was brought up by "AlexLah" a couple of years ago and discussed in this thread.

Ok, that may be. I'll admit that I have my attention on other things. I also realize this is just a water filter but that they start with the quote "turn water into gold." just turns me right off from reading any further.

[Naam]

"A small company near Paris has pioneered technology which can "turn water into gold."

uhh.. yeah right.. lets start our story with a preposterous statement and see how the reader will even believe anything else that is said.

this "invention" was brought up by "AlexLah" a couple of years ago and discussed in this thread.

Ok, that may be. I'll admit that I have my attention on other things. I also realize this is just a water filter but that they start with the quote "turn water into gold." just turns me right off from reading any further.

"turning water into wine" would have been more interesting, n'est-ce pas? at least we can fall back at an existing precedence when Jesus did that trick... ~2000 years ago.

[Jayman]

"A small company near Paris has pioneered technology which can "turn water into gold."

uhh.. yeah right.. lets start our story with a preposterous statement and see how the reader will even believe anything else that is said.

Ok, that may be. I'll admit that I have my attention on other things. I also realize this is just a water filter but that they start with the quote "turn water into gold." just turns me right off from reading any further.

"turning water into wine" would have been more interesting, n'est-ce pas? at least we can fall back at an existing precedence when Jesus did that trick... ~2000 years ago.

My guess is that is exactly the image they were trying to play on with that stupid statement.

[mccw]

"turning water into wine" would have been more interesting, n'est-ce pas? at least we can fall back at an existing precedence when Jesus did that trick... ~2000 years ago.

Yep; the statement is ridiculas but I wondered if the technique was similar to what the other poster was talking about a few pages ago. With the filtering the mine run of to increase supply or something like that.

[mccw]

"Concerns about Germanys gold reserves arose this year after a group of German federal lawmakers wanted to check gold bars stored at the Banque de France in Paris. But they were turned away by local officials who said there were no facilities to visit the vaults, Deutsche Welle reported.

German worries about the situation with its gold reserves reflect the worries of the German politicians that the country has enough gold reserves to resist the spreading eurozone crisis.

The Bundesbank has reportedly decided to ship 150 tons of gold from the New York Federal Reserve to Germany, according to German daily Bild. After returning to Germany the gold will be melted down to test the overall purity of each consignment before being re-cast into standard gold bars." -RT app

[churchill]

The NY Federal Reserve Bank is reporting empty shelves of German gold....

[mccw]

The NY Federal Reserve Bank is reporting empty shelves of German gold....

Your joking right;

I thought the "melted down to test overall quality" truly shows how little trust there is now

[Naam]

"turning water into wine" would have been more interesting, n'est-ce pas?

at least we can fall back at an existing precedence when Jesus did that trick...

~2000 years ago.

Yep; the statement is ridiculas but I wondered if the technique was similar

to what the other poster was talking about a few pages ago. With the filtering

the mine run of to increase supply or something like that.

if recall correctly the technique was some sort of advanced electrolysis which

can discern between precious and non precious metals and the medium from

which the metals is "harvested" was ordinary sea water which indeed contains

traces of various metals.

summary: one of the usual new technologies lukewarm farts one has to get used to.

[mccw]

"turning water into wine" would have been more interesting, n'est-ce pas?

at least we can fall back at an existing precedence when Jesus did that trick...

~2000 years ago.

Yep; the statement is ridiculas but I wondered if the technique was similar

to what the other poster was talking about a few pages ago. With the filtering

the mine run of to increase supply or something like that.

if recall correctly the technique was some sort of advanced electrolysis which

can discern between precious and non precious metals and the medium from

which the metals is "harvested" was ordinary sea water which indeed contains

traces of various metals.

summary: one of the usual new technologies lukewarm farts one has to get used to.

Yeah sure.

I saw one even more rubbish technology making bold claims; bacteria which shit gold!

BUT only if they feed on gold chloride.

[Naam]

"turning water into wine" would have been more interesting, n'est-ce pas?

at least we can fall back at an existing precedence when Jesus did that trick...

~2000 years ago.

Yep; the statement is ridiculas but I wondered if the technique was similar

to what the other poster was talking about a few pages ago. With the filtering

the mine run of to increase supply or something like that.

if recall correctly the technique was some sort of advanced electrolysis which

can discern between precious and non precious metals and the medium from

which the metals is "harvested" was ordinary sea water which indeed contains

traces of various metals.

summary: one of the usual new technologies lukewarm farts one has to get used to.

Yeah sure.

I saw one even more rubbish technology making bold claims; bacteria which shit gold!

BUT only if they feed on gold chloride.