How To Deal With 'criminals"

[david08see]

I am very interested in the way some people on TV talk about crime/drugs and related posts.

I would like to ask;

1- what constitutes a criminal by TV members standards. I hear the word " scumbag" used alot on people convicted of minor crimes. What makes a" scumbag"?

2- how they think persons convicted should be dealt with- and do they think the sentances handed out by thai courts are fair?

3- why there seems to be so many foreign criminals here? Does anyone know any interesting tales?

4- what possible improved ways to deal with crime ,in light of the fact that the current ways of dealing with crimes, in particular those involving drugs, do not seem to be working very well.

I hear alot of what we should not be doing, but few suggestions of any postive improvements.

thanking you all

[bkkjames]

I am very interested in the way some people on TV talk about crime/drugs and related posts.

I would like to ask;

1- what constitutes a criminal by TV members standards. I hear the word " scumbag" used alot on people convicted of minor crimes. What makes a" scumbag"?

2- how they think persons convicted should be dealt with- and do they think the sentances handed out by thai courts are fair?

3- why there seems to be so many foreign criminals here? Does anyone know any interesting tales?

4- what possible improved ways to deal with crime ,in light of the fact that the current ways of dealing with crimes, in particular those involving drugs, do not seem to be working very well.

I hear alot of what we should not be doing, but few suggestions of any postive improvements.

thanking you all

Are you planning on submitting your findings to the authorities for action or are you writing a book? If not, they why bother.

[phaethon]

Scumbag - (n.) Used to refer to a petty criminal who has been caught by those who have not (yet) been caught. See also 'glass houses'.

See also Quotations:"[They] doth protest too much, methinks."

[GuestHouse]

Scumbag is someone who is dispicable.

Spouse/child beaters, people who treat animals with cruelty, theives, rapists, drunks and druggies, people who don't pay their debts/child maintenance, flee the scene of accidents they have caused, people who swindle the welfare system, pimps, racists, bigots and bullies. People who know their rights but have no idea of what their responsibiliteis are.

That sort of thing.

[polecat]

I think I've worked out who Guesthouse really is...

[sgunn65]

There are not that many foreign criminals in jail here if you compare a similar sized country like the UK. There I believe something like 20% of all jailed criminals are not British born.

I would also question a previous posters (Guesthouse) definition of scum. Drunks and Druggies??? A little harsh. Do you mean alcoholics or anyone who is ever drunk, or just those drunks who offend your sensibilities. The majority of drug addicts and alcoholics have used drugs as a way of dealing with underlying issues and have found that this doesn't work. People who grew up in care are 4 times more likely to become addicts. Are they scum? Unfortunate yes, scum no, in my opinion. Everyone chooses their way and needs to take responsibility for their actions but making a wrong choice doesn't make someone scum.

Perhaps when you are throwing out gross generalisations you should look at the Governments who treat as criminals those who need our help. Look at the dealers who, due to the criminalisation of drugs and lack of services, fill the demand. Look at Governments who tacitly allow production of drugs. Look at corrupt police who make money from the dealers. But I am not condoning drug use or excessive alcohol consumption nor the crime that walks hand in hand. Maybe a little sympathy is better for our karma.

Edited November 13, 2008 by sgunn65

[dave111223]

Scumbag is someone who is dispicable.

Spouse/child beaters, people who treat animals with cruelty, theives, rapists, drunks and druggies, people who don't pay their debts/child maintenance, flee the scene of accidents they have caused, people who swindle the welfare system, pimps, racists, bigots and bullies. People who know their rights but have no idea of what their responsibiliteis are.

That sort of thing.

Agreed

[Gravelrash]

A criminal (or scumbag if you prefer) is a person that breaks laws you happen to agree with. If he is breaking laws you don't agree with then he is a champion fighting the fascist oppressors.

Saw a video of a woman motorist getting tasered by US police for driving without a license. Fortunately they withstood her spurious calls for mercy and screaming in pain. Justice served, another scumbag sorted out.

Locally politicians children killing people, no charges, justice served, the innocent free.

People smoking dope in Amsterdam cafes, "would you like cake with your joint?" Or tossed into hellholes in Bangkok for the same thing.

All countries set their own agendas to serve religion and politics, although the basic thrust is similar.

Or how about, Criminal - one who brings actual harm to others.

[GuestHouse]

Sorry if I upset your own sensibiliteis Scunn, but I'm not in the habbit of giving people excuses for their own ill advised behaviour - when they can't come up with an excuse of their own there are plenty of others willing to do so.

How many drunks and druggies get into the mess they do because they have never been told that their behaviour is not acceptable I wonder?

Over half a century of Liberal Hogwash - 'There's no such thing as bad people, they are only sad people' has got us where?

Time methinks for a bit of Kipling.

AS I PASS through my incarnations in every age and race,

I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.

Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,

And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.

We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn

That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:

But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,

So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.

We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,

Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,

But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come

That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.

With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,

They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;

They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;

So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.

When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.

They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.

But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,

And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "Stick to the Devil you know."

On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life

(Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)

Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,

And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "The Wages of Sin is Death."

In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,

By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;

But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,

And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."

Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew

And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true

That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four

And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man

There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.

That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,

And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins

When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,

As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,

The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

[sgunn65]

A fair response Guesthouse. i don't want to condone criminality but 15 years of working with drug addicts and alcoholics has given me a perspective that is different. Maybe not right but there's no crime there. Is there?

One of the problems of lumping so many groups together is we can lose our sense of humanity and the result is often tragic. Look at Thaksins war on drugs, not to mention the ethnic genocides throughout history.

After the delightful Kipling may I offer a slightly different take on modern life and punishment from John Cooper Clarke

SUSPENDED SENTENCE...

Read the paper - humdrum

Henley Regatta - page one

Eat die - ho hum

Page three - big bum

Giving a lunatic a loaded gun

He walks - others run

Thirty dead - no fun

Foreigners feature as figures of fun

Do something destructive chum

Sit right down - write a letter to the Sun

Say... "Bring back hangin' for everyone"

The took my advice - they brought it back

National costume was all-over-black

There were corpses in the avenues and cul-de-sacs

Piled up neatly in six-man stacks

Hanging from the traffic lights and specially made racks

They'd hang you for incontinence and fiddling your tax

Failure to hang yourself justified the axe

A deedely dee, a deedely dum

Looks like they brought back hangin' for everyone

The novelty's gone - it's hel_l

This place is a - death cell

The constant clang of the funeral bells

Those who aren't hanging are hanging someone else

The peoples pay - the paper sells

It's plug ugly - sub-animal yells

Death is unsightly - death smells

Swingin' Britain - don't put me on

They're gonna bring back the rope for everyone

[GuestHouse]

Well I draw the line at Capital Punishment, not because I don't think some criminals deserve execution, rather on the philosophical grounds that Capital Punishment is an irreversible punishment based upon a fallible decision of the justice system. But I digress.

What to do with Criminals - I'm in the Zero Tolerance camp, and the earlier people are brought to understand that Zero Tolerance applies to everyone the better.

Respect for your 15 years with drunks and druggies, I couldn't have done that, its good that people such as yourself can, and yes you have something to teach us I am sure.

But learn too from others - Ask school teachers which of their pupils they expect to become crooks and sure enough they can spot them, they can spot them when they are in Primary school. But that smacks of profiling minors and we can't have that can we. So let the problem fester to the point where a child who does not know where the boundaries of its behaviour lie becomes a criminal.

While that one goes unsorted we are left with the products of this twisted Liberal thinking - what to do with them?

Observation by a Police Officer friend of mine A few years back a Vigilante group was set up in Doncaster, England - Patrolling the streets in the kind of 'get-up' that John Cooper Clarke writes poetry about. Well sure enough it wasn't long before their leaders where arrested and the whole operation closed down. - Now the Police Observation - During the operation of this vigilante group crime in the area it was operating plummeted to Zero.

That should not be a shock to anyone, we know criminals prey on the defenseless and leave those who can fight back alone. But the lesson is there of the relearning (Kipling smiles in is grave).

The cure for crime is to put an end to reserving fear, pain, suffering and humiliation for the victims of crime.

[kmart]

I have considered setting up a vigilante group myself. Usually after a few drinks and a Charles Bronson movie, I feel an urge to "take back the streets" and "wash away all the scum" that infest the urban jungle that I can see through my venetian blinds. Sadly, I lack the requisite amount of righteous indignation and fully automatic firepower just as yet. Watch this space though.

[TexasRanger]

Know the laws of the country you are in.

Stick to them, all is well in the world.

Break those laws and pay the price.

I have met a bunch of expats here who think it is OK to drive whilst drunk because "All the Thai's do it" ???

Laws should be followed and law breakers should have appropriate punishments, a hungry kid shouldn't get jailed for stealing sweets, maybe a slap and a lecture to start with, but a druggy should go in the bin but not for the same time as a rapist (unless a dealer).

[JoeThePoster]

What makes a" scumbag"?

I always thought that the term was largely for used condoms.

But it seems to fit some ex-prime ministers and outgoing presidents as well.

[bkkjames]

In the USA, they launched a new device to stop vehicle thefts, might be useful in Thailand...turn on your volume.

[haybilly]

Well I draw the line at Capital Punishment, not because I don't think some criminals deserve execution, rather on the philosophical grounds that Capital Punishment is an irreversible punishment based upon a fallible decision of the justice system. But I digress.

What to do with Criminals - I'm in the Zero Tolerance camp, and the earlier people are brought to understand that Zero Tolerance applies to everyone the better.

Respect for your 15 years with drunks and druggies, I couldn't have done that, its good that people such as yourself can, and yes you have something to teach us I am sure.

But learn too from others - Ask school teachers which of their pupils they expect to become crooks and sure enough they can spot them, they can spot them when they are in Primary school. But that smacks of profiling minors and we can't have that can we. So let the problem fester to the point where a child who does not know where the boundaries of its behaviour lie becomes a criminal.

While that one goes unsorted we are left with the products of this twisted Liberal thinking - what to do with them?

Observation by a Police Officer friend of mine A few years back a Vigilante group was set up in Doncaster, England - Patrolling the streets in the kind of 'get-up' that John Cooper Clarke writes poetry about. Well sure enough it wasn't long before their leaders where arrested and the whole operation closed down. - Now the Police Observation - During the operation of this vigilante group crime in the area it was operating plummeted to Zero.

That should not be a shock to anyone, we know criminals prey on the defenseless and leave those who can fight back alone. But the lesson is there of the relearning (Kipling smiles in is grave).

The cure for crime is to put an end to reserving fear, pain, suffering and humiliation for the victims of crime.

Shame really--I've always had respect for the writings of Guesthouse-until now, now I see how you can work in a place like Saudi.

[sgunn65]

Were the Doncaster Vigilantes allied to the vigilantes in Portsmouth who, as a gang, turned up at the house of a Peadiatric Doctor and beat him up because they didn't know the difference between Peadophile and Peadiatric?? Still their hearts were in the right place.

A slightly different observation. In the 90's a Dr Marx in the Wirral prescribed heroin and Cocaine to drug addicts. In the 7 years he was allowed to practice the burglary and street crime rate went down by 95% and cases of HIV dropped to zero. The UK Government celebrated this drastic drop in the crime rate by taking his licence to practice away. He is now helping addicts in NZ.

There is more than one way to skin a cat

[elkangorito]

A quote from the 1960's Stanley Milgram experiment:

The results, as I observed them in a laboratory, are disturbing. They raise the possibility that human nature cannot be counted on to insulate man from brutality & inhumane treatment from a molevalent authority. A substantial proportion of people do what they are told to do, irrespective of the content of the act & without limitations of conscience, so long as they perceive that the command comes from a legitimate authority. If in this study, an anonomous experimenter could successfully command adults to subdue a fifty year old man & force on him painful electric shocks against his protests, one can only wonder what government with its vastly greater authority & prestige, can command of its subjects.

One can only wonder what government with its vastly greater authority & prestige, can command of its subjects.

Or re-worded slightly:

One can only wonder what "control freak" with their vastly greater "self righteousness", can command of their subjects.

[GuestHouse]

Steady on Sgunn, that I have repeated the observation that the threat of a vigilante group has been seen to reduce crime is not to say that I agree that Vigilante groups are the answer to curing crime or that I defend their actions - I do not. The case I have quoted is not one for the forming of vigilante groups but for redressing the failings of the hamstrung and liberalized law enforcement/judicial systems.

As I have clearly stated, put an end to reserving fear, pain, suffering and humiliation for the victims of crime.

Half a century of liberalizing law enforcement and criminal justice is getting us nowhere.

And yes I agree, giving addicts the drugs they are addicted to is a means of reducing crime - but then they have to become addicts in the first place before such a treatment would be affective.

A government drugging addicts is fixing the symptom not the problem.

So rather than upset the rights of an individual before they get into serious trouble we propose allowing them to become addicts and then drug them into oblivion to keep them under control....

Yeh that would work.

'Brave New World' anyone?!

[polecat]

Were the Doncaster Vigilantes allied to the vigilantes in Portsmouth who, as a gang, turned up at the house of a Peadiatric Doctor and beat him up because they didn't know the difference between Peadophile and Peadiatric?? Still their hearts were in the right place.

A pedant (paedant?) writes...

That's a great story. Unfortunately it's not entirely accurate. It's one of these stories that gets retold and distorted until, finally, something quite different becomes the accepted version. We used to call it Chinese Whispers.

Anyway, the paediatrician was called Dr Yvette Cloete (Google fans) and she lived in Newport, Wales. Far from being beaten up, someone just sprayed "PAEDO" on her front door. Here's a link

The Portsmouth connection is that around the same time a bunch of Guesthouse's zero-tolerance vigilante buddies (only joking GH!) went and harrassed families (often wrongly) thought to be harbouring sex criminals. This was after an infamous "name and shame" tabloid campaign.

Edited November 14, 2008 by polecat

[tmd5855]

Tend to get out of the chair and reach up for the ..G..U..N... whenever I hear the reasons why someone became a druggie, thief or layabout.

In the 60's when my father (45yrs old) died, mother gave up on us and it was a home for us three. I was eleven, sister 13, brother 15.

Mother remarried when 17. At 18 went and lived with her, at 20 stepfather moved saying your not coming?

At 23 bought my first house. Now work in the oil industry and live in Thailand, age 53yrs.

I was okay because of the "right from wrong" and "fair, unfair" values my father gave me before he died.

Too many people do wrong and say its not their fault, they are not to blame and people say "Of course your not to blame, it's society to blame"????????

Until the do-gooders (heart in the right place, commonsense a million miles away) realise that humans will do what is the most pleasurable or easiest, until we are given set boundaries and standards.

As a father with two sons, still try to give them all I missed out on. My third son who so sadly is no longer here, had problems. His mother and I could never agree on the way forward, I wanted boundaries she wanted another chance. Many chances later the drug and theft scene took his future then his life. He did not want to die but he did what he wanted.

Nobody is born a criminal, they are allowed to become one.

Apologies if more of an innane dribble or rant, if percieved as such.............Please accept my apology

Edited November 14, 2008 by tmd5855

[GuestHouse]

...

I was okay because of the "right from wrong" and "fair, unfair" values my father gave me before he died. .....

Nobody is born a crinimal, they are allowed to become one.....

BINGO!

[elkangorito]

I was okay because of the "right from wrong" and "fair, unfair" values my father gave me before he died.

Too many people do wrong and say its not their fault, they are not to blame and people say "Of course your not to blame, it's society to blame"????????

I would suggest that you are a little incorrect.

Your father may have told you certain things but it was you who ultimately decided to adhere to his ideals. Some people do as you did, some people don't. There is no "black & white" about this.

Those who actively "do wrong" to others need to take responsibility for their actions. "Laws" do not promote responsibility. To the contrary, they promote avoidance of responsibility - "I was following the law" or "I was following orders."

To me, "laws" boil down to somebody else doing your dirty work for you. If you think you are morally correct, you may not like the idea of hurting/killing someone to defend in what you believe. If you are free of moral guilt, you may see fit to hurt/kill others for what you perceive is "right" for you.

The funny thing is that all these laws have achieved nothing except from filling up prisons & therefore creating more "criminals".

[Gary A]

If I think someone is a scumbag, they ARE a scumbag. I have a right to my opinion and if you have a different opinion, that's up to you.

[polecat]

If I think someone is a scumbag, they ARE a scumbag. I have a right to my opinion and if you have a different opinion, that's up to you.

So there's no chance that you could be wrong? You couldn't be convinced that your initial impression might be mistaken? Let's hope you're not a cop.

Edited November 14, 2008 by polecat

[Ta22]

- if i had a said , and if i will allow .

" do not the evil done to you , share not the evil done to you "

forgive those that bringyou pain , this will release you from your own pain

.

is the hardest to follow .

and last but not least .

Buddha teaches .

" Do good to those that do evil to you . "

" plants the seeds of kindness - instead of shelding the seed of hate "

.

there is not standard of good or bad .

do what you must - after all yo got one life -

be it right or wrong , the greater karma of life is such that -

human is just part of nature and sometime while we put our eyes on the very front of mankind .

we miss out the greater view of humanity

.

[Gary A]

If I think someone is a scumbag, they ARE a scumbag. I have a right to my opinion and if you have a different opinion, that's up to you.

So there's no chance that you could be wrong? You couldn't be convinced that your initial impression might be mistaken? Let's hope you're not a cop.

I also have a right to change my mind and I have done that but NOT often.

[polecat]

If I think someone is a scumbag, they ARE a scumbag. I have a right to my opinion and if you have a different opinion, that's up to you.

So there's no chance that you could be wrong? You couldn't be convinced that your initial impression might be mistaken? Let's hope you're not a cop.

I also have a right to change my mind and I have done that but NOT often.

OK, so we have established that you have an extremely advanced sense intuition and that you are not often wrong (except maybe in your choice of capitalisation). Now you are affirming your right to be wrong (what rights are these by the way, do you have a list we could pin on this board)which seems to be at odds with a zero-tolerance hang-'em-high culture. After all, as with my LINK above, there are occasions when bad choices are made in the heat of the moment and dire consequnces arise. Being right most of the time isn't good enough, surely.

[ourmaninbangers]

interesting...

1- are druggies all scumbags? Are people who take for own use " scumbags"? If its legal in one place, and not in another, does the person become a scumbag one when he enters the cuontry that it is not? okay i am leaving holland now and I not a scumbag, I will land in thailand in 11 hours and become one.....

do we include booze? over prescribed " legals'? Getting off ones head on any sort of drug was, according to maslow the 5th need, like sex... so by following ones needs one is a scumbag is she( and he)

Calling someone a scumbag who simply likes to indulge in whatever( dope, booze, etc) without harming anyone is truly pathetic.No wonder progress is so lame.

Calling anyone that anyway tends to say alot about the person. I agree some crimes are the aweful. I do not think drug addicts or even pushers should be included in the ones who murder, rapes, steal with violence.One has a victim.

2- follow all laws is a good advice. But laws are not made for us, but for the people in charge. They would rather have us drinking and smoking the ciggerete that they make legal so they can get the tax. Telling someone they cannot enjoy something in their own home is to much. A real joke.This pointless, silly law should go out the widow.

This law was imposed, like many others by the worlds most progressive country, the USA,the country which has the most people sitting in jail, the one who ignore the greenhouse gas,s, I could go on and on ( but still does one hel_l of alot of good anyway- there is VERY good side to that country, at last they got the right man in power)

3-tossed into jail.. people listen, you Have to be caught, tried, convicted first.. are you missing that? The chance of that happening for personal is so incredible small it almost becomes a non risk.

And this is thailand. Reach for the $$$.I was asked by a TV mod( who would not let me answer- can I now?) how I would feel if someone read my post, went out and bought something and then got caught, convicted and sent to jail.

First I would feel bad for that person of coures, suprised at his bad luck ( he would be a first). I do not realy advocte doing that, but am telling realitys that some do not like to hear. And that is that thailand is a very safe place to induge in ones personal pastimes.

Another way of looking at it is- i would rather someone tell me I had something called freewill and take a chance and use it.The sort of freewill that lead me to climb out of those shackles and lies which say one must work hard, pay taxes, follow the law.. etc, give myself and nice little pat on the back for being a good little sheep and lead a mindboggling boring existance.

Jail time for a few years- a small risk, most do the other for life.. to me that is real jail time..and never really know why.And never know the pleasures that they are denying themselves for being " good boys".

4-"criminal becomes one.... " does he, by whose standards? again I fly from holland to here, where exactly do I become a criminal?

5-most laws realted to this are stupid, pointless, unenforcable, time wasting, cruel, can and never have worked. All they do is make the big boys richer and waste valuable police time, and waste the tax payers moneys. So many people in jail for things which are not really ' bad"- is that prgress, is that good, it is the lesson we wish to teach?

Surely something new should be considered, but when I read some of the posts here I understand why we are so far behind.

6- and to one gent, Sir, what you think is not reality, it is your perception of it. I think I am right here( see that wikipedia thing it may help)And where is the local mind exchange? I want to know how you can change it ( wink wink)

It is this sort of the stubborn, backward unwilling to re-think , admit when wrong mentality that leaves us way behind where we ought to be, that puts not bad people in jail, that does to them far worse than they have ever done to others, that wastes so much time/ money energy and keeps organised crime so rich.

I hope we progress, npbody can say what we are doing works

[GuestHouse]

It is oft repeated that Thailand attracts more than its fair share of crooks, cranks and scumbags (Don't believe me, read this and other Thailand focussed webboards and you'll come across such observations on a fairly regular basis).

It follows therefore that if the people who use such webboards are representative of the people who come to Thailand then a number will regard this subject as directed at themselves.

That being the case strong objections are to be expected.

Arguments along the lines of 'The laws are made for others' is indictive of a mind set that says I'll choose which laws I shall follow.

The 'Social Contract' anyone?!