Ex-pat Clubs

[DavidWenman]

In March 2007 we paid a Thai architect 2.7 million baht for a 30 year lease for a property in the south of Thailand. She then refused to issue the lease but kept the money.

Alan Hall (company PFM) offered to take over the property with Tom [Alan’s employee: allegedly a lawyer] assuming ownership. The understanding being Tom would then issue a usufruct (similar to 30 year lease) to us. Tom then told us the police in the south wanted 500,000 baht “tea money” Tom was unable to get the usufruct in the south (although we were charged 40,000 baht by PFM for doing so) but assured us he could do it from Chiang Mai. By this time we had completed building a school (with our own money) and had started teaching more than 100 students.

Then Tom told us, he and us are liable for a 2 year prison sentence and that we could be deported. Tom then said he paid a lawyer 50,000 bt to find out his legal position. Tom said the same lawyer said he would defend us against the imprisonment and deportation (at a cost of 500,000 baht.)

We independently spoke to the land office in the south who said Tom had questions to answer and that there were no charges against us and that it is untrue that we could go to prison or be deported. Since this was confirmed by a representative from the British Embassy, a lawyer and an International Journalist. We told Alan Hall we had no need to pay his lawyer.

Tom then said he wanted to transfer the land to another Thai person. We said that once he had done this we would reimburse the 50,000 bt he had to pay (to find out his legal position) on completion of the transfer.

On 19 November 08 Tom signed an agreement to sell the land to another Thai person. The land office said Tom had submitted incorrect papers and refused to register the sale. They also say Tom has to go and see them to answer some serious questions before the land can be transferred. This, he refuses to do. When we ask Alan Hall to insure Tom submits correct papers he refuses to do so unless we pay 50,000 baht into Alan Hall’s bank account.

If anybody else has had a similar experience I would be very grateful to hear abouut it.

David Wenman

[patklang]

Not been stung by farang yet.

This is the bad side of thailand,not the thais,but the greedy farangs,including real estate agents who bump the price up.We have taught the thais very well regarding corruption and greed.One day these bad uns will go back to spain.

[JohnC]

Well Im confused because nowhere does the op mention an expats club yet the heading states

Ex-pat Clubs, cover for shoddy and expencive services

Am I missing something?

[McLovin]

Well Im confused because nowhere does the op mention an expats club yet the heading states

Ex-pat Clubs, cover for shoddy and expencive services

Am I missing something?

The two people he mentioned are the faces behind the Chiang Mai expats club....

[Rinrada]

Bit one sided...init......

[DavidWenman]

I should have said. Alan Hall is the chairperson of Chiang Mai ex pats club. Tom is employed by Alan Hall and does work for the expats club. Tom is widely touted as a lawyer but in fact he is not a qualified lawyer. We have been having trouble with these two goons for nearly 2 years. Their actions have forced the closure of the school on Koh Sukorn, that we built.

David Wenman

[JohnC]

Thanks for the clarification I am appalled at your treatment and the fact that expats clubs are supposed to "help expats" not rip them off!

[gymboxgirl]

I should have said. Alan Hall is the chairperson of Chiang Mai ex pats club. Tom is employed by Alan Hall and does work for the expats club. Tom is widely touted as a lawyer but in fact he is not a qualified lawyer. We have been having trouble with these two goons for nearly 2 years. Their actions have forced the closure of the school on Koh Sukorn, that we built.

David Wenman

Seems like a few clubs are involved in ripping people off. see the post currently on the CM forum entitled "Chiang Mai Friends Group, Are they worth their fees?" posted by "shepsel". 4000 US for newbies to have a month's rent, and a couple of hours Thai lessons!!! Boyoboy, I'm in the wrong business!

[Loaded]

The use of 'club' and 'friends group' gave me the feeling that these two groups were semi-official. One of them had the lady mayor give a talk about the environment in Chiang Mai I think. Now she's signed off a plan to widen within the city roads that are already 4 lanes wide! There's a Thai expression that says it's cheaper to build roads from gold if it's corruption free.

[hill16]

This is a very disturbing story. I know quite a few decent folks who are members of the Expat Club. I think they need to purge themselves of these two disreputable characters rather quickly before they themselves become tarred with the same brush. Also, interesting to note the connection between the Expats Club and the Chiangmai Friends Club.

Just out of curiousity I looked at the CM Friends website. The wife ran up the stairs to see what I was laughing so much about. She thought I'd gone nuts:

http://www.retireinchiangmai.com/package.php

or to summarize:

888 Baht Per person (that's 888baht!), including boat fees, English Speaking Guide, lunch, 2 bottles of water, welcome herbal drink and fruits for an orientation activity. Check it out yourselves if you don't believe me. Maybe warn the wife or husband beforehand though...

[Loaded]

Tom the 'solicitor' seems to be everywhere:

http://www.retireinchiangmai.com/aboutus.php

http://www.soschiangmai.com/aboutus.htm

Certainly the same few names pop up on

Chiang Mai Expats

Chiang Mai Friends

SOS Chiang Mai

Quite a network.

[WaiWai]

There's a Thai expression that says it's cheaper to build roads from gold if it's corruption free.

Clearly the "Chiang Mai Friends Group", the "Chiang Mai Expats Club", the "Retire in Chiang Mai" organization, "PFM International", "SOS Chiangmai", the "Chiang Mai Mail" and even the municipality are all very closely interconnected.

("Plus we are also, the friends of Chiang Mai group, we are privileged to work as volunteers for the municipality on many projects you are welcome to join us").

What form of entity is each, exactly ?

Club ? Association ? Registered Business ? Registered Charity ???? How does the money flow from one to the other ?

Follow the yellow-brick road ?

[Loaded]

What form of entity is each, exactly ?

Club ? Association ? Registered Business ? Registered Charity ???? How does the money flow from one to the other ?

According to their Website: "SOS is a non-profit organization whose aim is to help foreigners living in Chiangmai in the event of an emergency."

They charge 2,000 baht per year 'membership' plus you can buy these extra services from this non-profit organisation:

Health Insurance

Property Insurance

Car Insurance

Capital raising on overseas properties

Will writing service

I guess Tom the 'solicitor' writes the wills.

[slapout]

someone might have photo of these 2 clowns which would go a long way in helping the social structure of CM.

[OLEODIN]

The hen is coming to the rosst at last I tell people about this man before but no one listening. Now the truth it come. Mr loaded is right it is all a network for takinbg the advantage over the new expat arrive in chiang mai they not know and trust Expat Club and friend group but it is all a lie. it work only for hall and boong to make money. They plan it all to cheat people and the club board put head in sand like the blind bird Hall and all board must leave and club return to help expat like first time. expat member should stand up and throw hall out for destroy the club for his filth profit

[hill16]

According to http://www.retireinchiangmai.com/Charity.php, they have raised over 3.2million baht for local charities and aim to raise another 1.2million baht at the next Rooftop Charity night in January.

Have the people who attended previous events been given statements of accounts by the organisers to show how much was actually raised and how much actually went to the charities?

In fact, do all the interconnected organisations listed already issue annual statements of accounts to their members and are they independently audited each year?

Apparently, Mr. Hall and Ms. Boong were more than just business associates.

Finally does Mr. Hall have a work-permit to be involved in business here?

[Loaded]

someone might have photo of these 2 clowns which would go a long way in helping the social structure of CM.

Alan (scroll down the page)

http://www.chiangmai-mail.com/189/community.shtml

Boong (girlfriend of Alan, owner of the official sponsor of the Expats Club - BTS Travel - and the chairwoman of CM Friends) plus Tom the 'solicitor'

http://www.retireinchiangmai.com/aboutus.php

[McLovin]

This supposed USD$3900 that the so-called Friends of Chiang Mai charge is not mentioned on any website, theirs or others ....

Does anyone have a link to the above, and not just the websites?????

[Loaded]

Another project (project leader Boong) of the Chiang Mai friends was to convince 'volunteer' teachers to teach for free, without the correct paperwork, municipal employees.

"They are looking for volunteers with ESL qualifications to teach the Municipality staff. 95 Staff members have signed up. Lessons will be held on Thursday (and Tuesday, if I rememebr well) afternoons from 2.30 to 4.30pm. This afternoon was the first lesson. Khun Boong can give you all the info you need"

These sorts of contracts are always for money. Quite a good margin if you can convince 'volunteers' to do it for free.

There was a long discussion on this:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Volunteer-Op...mp;hl=volunteer

Edited December 28, 2008 by Loaded

[tigerbeer]

thanks for pointing them out to us. now we know which associations and clubs to stay away from.

[Ajarn]

I would like to hear something from Nienke Parma who is listed as one of the main folks involved...

[southerndown]

This is a very disturbing story. I know quite a few decent folks who are members of the Expat Club. I think they need to purge themselves of these two disreputable characters rather quickly before they themselves become tarred with the same brush. Also, interesting to note the connection between the Expats Club and the Chiangmai Friends Club.

Just out of curiousity I looked at the CM Friends website. The wife ran up the stairs to see what I was laughing so much about. She thought I'd gone nuts:

http://www.retireinchiangmai.com/package.php

or to summarize:

888 Baht Per person (that's 888baht!), including boat fees, English Speaking Guide, lunch, 2 bottles of water, welcome herbal drink and fruits for an orientation activity. Check it out yourselves if you don't believe me. Maybe warn the wife or husband beforehand though...

members have tried but been told they cannot elect officers to the club. maybe some former board members can shed some light on it - at least one is on thaivisa.

[Nienke]

I would like to hear something from Nienke who is listed as one of the main folks involved...

Not much to tell. I'm not a boardmember but a member of the CMFG and since shortly also a sponsor.

Already on the other thread I've said that my involvement mainly concerns when K. Boong receives questions about doggy issues or about importing a pet. (did you read that thread?) then she forward these mails to me.

When people require about boarding or training their pet, there will be a price tag once the animal actually comes in boarding or for training. Nothing more or nothing less, then for someone outside the CMFG or the CEC (of which I'm a member and a sponsor as well).

When someone asks info about importing or exporting their pet, I'll give them the necessary info. No price tag. However, if someone asks me to help with bringing their pet to the vet, the Animal Quarantine station and/or the airport, I will ask a fee. Not that strange as for example last time it took me a whole morning for the AQS and the next day I needed to deliver the pets at the airport before 7 am in the morning.

The other activity that partly involves the CMFG is the 'Living Safely with Dogs' educational program. This is a program taught for free to the schools. The material used is provided by me, and paid out of my own pocket.

The CMFG's involvement is/was organizing a meeting with the municipality office, who in their turn organized a school for us, where we now are teaching.

The teaching is highly enjoyable, the kids are very sweet, and it seems they enjoy it as well.

Several months ago, at one of the CMFG's meetings, they were talking about setting up an activity about replanting fallow land in Chiang Mai with indigenous trees and plants. As I've studied Tropical Forestry, specialization Forest and Nature Management, that was something I really would like to get involved in. If it was only to learn more about the native trees and plants. But so far, I haven't heard much about it.

I used to go to every monthly meeting, but the last few months have been quite busy for me, so I missed a few of them. I'm not that involved in the Group that I know all the in and outs.

For me, joining the CMFG was partly for the networking, partly for meeting new people (both Thai and foreigners) and because several of the activities they had on their agenda I really liked, such as that replanting activity. And not necessarily in that order.

I hope I have satisfied your curiosity about my involvement in the Group.

Nienke

[john b good]

In March 2007 we paid a Thai architect 2.7 million baht for a 30 year lease for a property in the south of Thailand. She then refused to issue the lease but kept the money.

Alan Hall (company PFM) offered to take over the property with Tom [Alan’s employee: allegedly a lawyer] assuming ownership. The understanding being Tom would then issue a usufruct (similar to 30 year lease) to us. Tom then told us the police in the south wanted 500,000 baht “tea money” Tom was unable to get the usufruct in the south (although we were charged 40,000 baht by PFM for doing so) but assured us he could do it from Chiang Mai. By this time we had completed building a school (with our own money) and had started teaching more than 100 students.

Then Tom told us, he and us are liable for a 2 year prison sentence and that we could be deported. Tom then said he paid a lawyer 50,000 bt to find out his legal position. Tom said the same lawyer said he would defend us against the imprisonment and deportation (at a cost of 500,000 baht.)

We independently spoke to the land office in the south who said Tom had questions to answer and that there were no charges against us and that it is untrue that we could go to prison or be deported. Since this was confirmed by a representative from the British Embassy, a lawyer and an International Journalist. We told Alan Hall we had no need to pay his lawyer.

Tom then said he wanted to transfer the land to another Thai person. We said that once he had done this we would reimburse the 50,000 bt he had to pay (to find out his legal position) on completion of the transfer.

On 19 November 08 Tom signed an agreement to sell the land to another Thai person. The land office said Tom had submitted incorrect papers and refused to register the sale. They also say Tom has to go and see them to answer some serious questions before the land can be transferred. This, he refuses to do. When we ask Alan Hall to insure Tom submits correct papers he refuses to do so unless we pay 50,000 baht into Alan Hall’s bank account.

If anybody else has had a similar experience I would be very grateful to hear abouut it.

David Wenman

I haven't had a similar experience BUT it does not surprise me in the least.

Whilst the denizens of the realm might be a bit shonky at times they don't come within a bulls roar of some of the "get rich quick farangs" who operate here.

"let the buyer beware" and in doing so look very carefully at these self appointed experts who have set themselves up in business in the realm.

[AHALL]

I thought I better sign up and reply to the allegations that David Wenman made about myself, Khun Tom and Chiang Mai Expats Club. Firstly I must state the whole thing has nothing to do with Chiang Mai Expats Club, or Chiang Mai Friends Group. Khun Tom is a legal adviser who helps (mainly) foreign people with legal issues and situations, he charges for his services as do all other people who work in a similar field. Karen and David Wenman approached me sometime ago (they were already existing clients of my business) and asked me for help regarding a "situation" they had gotten themselves into on ownership of some land in the South of Thailand. I asked Khun Tom to go to see them and he agreed to help out with the situation which had got fairly ugly as the Wenmans had already been threatened (with a firearm) and had their property robbed. Khun Tom went to the South to see the people concerned and although he was able to help, due to the Wenmans previously signing a very incriminating statement the local police where keen to pursue what they beleived to be a criminal case against the Wenmans. At this point Khun Tom brought in a lawyer Khun Sakda, (who is one of the most respected and experienced lawyers in Chiang Mai), and asked him to visit the land registry office and police down south. Khun Sakda did this (also taking with him a Chiang Mai land registry official) and was able to sort out the situation. Khun Sakda's fees came to 50,000bht which I had to pay in advance (but which the Wenmans agreed to pay). The situation now is as follows:

Khun Tom has sign one more form to complete the transfer of the land into the Wenman's friends name. I have asked him to do this and I have informed the Wenmans that as soon as they pay the above fees the transfer will be carried out.

At no time was it anyones intention to cause stress to the Wenmans or indeed to cheat or steal from them, we were merely trying to help them but having paid Khun Sakda his fee I think it only fair that they reimburse me for that (as theyagreed to do).

I have documentary evidence to support all the above facts and I would be happy to meet with anyone to resolve this unfortunate situation.

Alan Hall

[Ajarn]

This and other threads are some of the reasons why I say, "Too many farangs in Thailand", and why it is impossible for me to respect anyone living here. Well, there is one person who I respect a lot because he has lived here longer than I have, and has pretty much figured everything out...

[tigerbeer]

This and other threads are some of the reasons why I say, "Too many farangs in Thailand", and why it is impossible for me to respect anyone living here. Well, there is one person who I respect a lot because he has lived here longer than I have, and has pretty much figured everything out...

its really very simple Ajarn, give respect and receive respect in return. thats how i think anyway.

[southerndown]

This and other threads are some of the reasons why I say, "Too many farangs in Thailand", and why it is impossible for me to respect anyone living here. Well, there is one person who I respect a lot because he has lived here longer than I have, and has pretty much figured everything out...

very enigmatic

your students must learn a lot from you. but would they understand what you have just written?

[kalbo123]

This and other threads are some of the reasons why I say, "Too many farangs in Thailand", and why it is impossible for me to respect anyone living here. Well, there is one person who I respect a lot because he has lived here longer than I have, and has pretty much figured everything out...

very enigmatic

your students must learn a lot from you. but would they understand what you have just written?

So when someone lives in Thailand longer then you he gets your respect... stange thinking...

Wouldn't it be nice if only you and your longer staying farang friend where the only ones staying in Thailand?

[neilrob]

It seems very strange that most (but thankfully not all) of the responses on this thread seem to assume to the truth of the OP's post. This in spite of the post being inherently dubious (for example, why doesn't he blame the Thai architect who apparently stole 2.7 million, rather than blaming a couple of farangs?) and with no proof offered. I would not consider taking these sort of allegations seriously without some sort of proof. From this and other threads, there seem to be all too many Thaivisa members who believe anything posted. It's time for some healthy scepticism---just because someone posts something on the internet does not make it true.