Lpg

[tomartoh]

When i have been following up second hand cars for sale, i find a lot have had LPG fitted in the past year. Anyone any experience of using it. is it any good, is the saving in running cost worth any potential problems with engine etc

[onnut]

My view on this would be dont buy 2nd hand cars with LPG tanks fitted, they may not be safe as they could have been fitted by a cowboy. these things blow up, and they have blown up in Bangkok on busses and I saw a photo of a Volvo that blew up while being filled up, it was not a pretty photo, a lot of body parts laying around.

really do some research on this one just to be safe.

[Plus]

Proper inspection is, of course, absolutely necessary.

There are plenty of cars running on LPG, though. The chance of an explosion is really really minimal.

That Volvo exploded because the owner tried to fill the tank with NGV that has higher pressure, as far as I remember. Just what was he thinking I don't know. Trying to save on a proper NGV tank?

The cost of running on LPG should not be above 2 baht per km, depending on the engine and vehicle size. With oil prices so low it doesn't make much sense at the moment, but only a few months ago savings were huge. Who knows what will happen to oil next year?

Check what kind of LPG system is there - expensive head injectors or cheap vacuum suction.

You don't need to use LPG if you don't want to, the engine would happily run on regular gasoline.

[G54]

For the new doughnut LPG tanks that fit in they tyre well I saw these two numbers :-

029547488 029548717

LPG problems?

Heat. Running an engine on LPG takes a lot more cooling than on standard Diesel or Petrol. Inadequate cooling can cause problems. A twin fan system on the radiator is needed. Preferablt with a 2 or 3 core radiator.

Check the oil and the coolant levels regularly (more often than on a standard engine) to prevent problems.

In a lot of cases the acceleration is slower than a petrol motor.

Finding LPG gas stations can be difficult, though more are appearing all the time.

Small LPG tanks (50 kilo or under) obviously means less mileage and the need to be careful when travelling distances unless you know of LPG stations on the way or at the destination.

Running costs.

As said above 2 Baht kilometer. More than that it is getting expensive and not so economical. Now standard fuel is back down in price there is not so much saving.

If the motor is the same price as a standard motor then you should not have to start paying out extra.

** Note. All LPG motors are now supposed to carry a government sticker in the windscreen stating the LPG system has been examined. No sticker? Ask yourself why not.

I am now on my 2nd LPG motor and apart from a few niggles with the temperature, the LPG sytem has not been a problem.

Check to make sure the motor is dual-fuel. I have towed a mini-bus over 50 kilometers before now when they have run out of LPG and not had petrol tank in reserve.

Although you can run on LPG alone all the time, it is wise to check the car (if dual-fuel) startes and runs well on the petrol. Some will not use the petrol system at all and then, when needed find it will not run or runs very rough. Once a week run it on petrol will possibly save problems in the future.

Except for the queues at some filling stations it takes 5 minutes to fill a 70 kilo tank.

[Plus]

My installation, generic, Italian head injectors, always starts on petrol and I drive up to 1km before LPG kicks in - it needs a warm engine to start the pump, or so I was told.

Acceleration is the same.

I can't say anything about increase in fuel consumption - I have never driven enough on petrol to record it for comparison.

[ratcatcher]

For the new doughnut LPG tanks that fit in they tyre well I saw these two numbers :-

029547488 029548717

LPG problems?

Heat. Running an engine on LPG takes a lot more cooling than on standard Diesel or Petrol. Inadequate cooling can cause problems. A twin fan system on the radiator is needed. Preferablt with a 2 or 3 core radiator.

Check the oil and the coolant levels regularly (more often than on a standard engine) to prevent problems.

In a lot of cases the acceleration is slower than a petrol motor.

Finding LPG gas stations can be difficult, though more are appearing all the time.

Small LPG tanks (50 kilo or under) obviously means less mileage and the need to be careful when travelling distances unless you know of LPG stations on the way or at the destination.

Running costs.

As said above 2 Baht kilometer. More than that it is getting expensive and not so economical. Now standard fuel is back down in price there is not so much saving.

If the motor is the same price as a standard motor then you should not have to start paying out extra.

** Note. All LPG motors are now supposed to carry a government sticker in the windscreen stating the LPG system has been examined. No sticker? Ask yourself why not.

I am now on my 2nd LPG motor and apart from a few niggles with the temperature, the LPG sytem has not been a problem.

Check to make sure the motor is dual-fuel. I have towed a mini-bus over 50 kilometers before now when they have run out of LPG and not had petrol tank in reserve.

Although you can run on LPG alone all the time, it is wise to check the car (if dual-fuel) startes and runs well on the petrol. Some will not use the petrol system at all and then, when needed find it will not run or runs very rough. Once a week run it on petrol will possibly save problems in the future.

Except for the queues at some filling stations it takes 5 minutes to fill a 70 kilo tank.

Excellent post and since I am dual fuel with LPG/petrol on my Suzuki Caribian, I can second what G54 says.

Since petrol prices have hit a low, a conversion is not actually economical at the moment, but if a used vehicle is for sale with LPG, the best thing is to have it professionally inspected.

When I had my conversion installed, I had to take it to the Land Transportation Office at Mor Chit for inspection and certifying in the green Book.

Advantages are you get twice the range on long drives before having to refill.

LPG is getting more widely available as is, of course, CNG. But there will always be boneheads who try and use cooking gas cylinders or try and transfer cooking gas into a car. Baboom!

There will come a time in the near future when oil prices will start increasing again and LPG will seem more reasonable.

In my car, I have to check the 2 stroke lubricant cylinder every time I fill up the LPG tank. I am sure many people that have LPG forget to check this important lubricant.

You get better acceleration and uphill power with regular 91 petrol but for running around town I use LPG. I switch to petrol every other day just to keep the fuel lines clean.

Cheers

[Plus]

LPG is oil by-product. On it's own it should cost about 40-50% of petrol. The price in Thailand is politically controlled and now it's not in favour of LPG, but still I think that the same distance I cover on 400 baht LPG tank would cost me 600 baht on gasoline.

[Plus]

You get better acceleration and uphill power with regular 91 petrol

This should not the problem if your LPG has head injectors with a separate ECU.

[hbert]

Sorry if I wake up an old thread but I try to find information about the "doughnut LPG tanks" that fits in the spare tyre well.

Can they be obtained and installed legally in Thailand or are they all "black market" tanks not approved by Thai authorities...?

If they are legal, can anybody advice me where they can be installed in Pattaya area and in what sizes they can be found.

Any info highly appreciated....

[sysmaster]

You get better acceleration and uphill power with regular 91 petrol

This should not the problem if your LPG has head injectors with a separate ECU.

All a question of properly programming the LPG ECU.... last week, after fixing a minor LPG injector thing, we, mechanic and I, went for

a calibration while driving....

When we got to a bit of an empty road (some "frontage roads" are good for that), I just went for it, and noticed the mechanic locking himself in the seat, scared the S...T out of him. (2.2 Chevy Zafira), he immediately asked me to slow down, so he could belt up...

No to much difference in accelerating power between Petrol and LPG, different sound.

What I generally noticed on my Zafi is that accelerating in Petrol mode and giving it a bit to much does not bring more power, more like choking the engine a tad, with the LPG ECU, we tuned out the flaw, for LPG mode that is...

[nilsen077]

Hello,

my friend is installing lpg systems in cars - ESGI 2 - and he says his clients are relly satidfied with it. It really makes the costs go down. It is importanta, especially now, when the petrol prices are going up. If you have a chance to do it - go ahead. ESGI 2 systems are one of the best, as far as I know.

[fred2007]

I know this is not relating to the topic but could some one tell me how much a conversion for LPG or CNG cost and and how many years would it take to recover the installation and would it be worth doing this on a 10 year old car?

[katabeachbum]

I know this is not relating to the topic but could some one tell me how much a conversion for LPG or CNG cost and and how many years would it take to recover the installation and would it be worth doing this on a 10 year old car?

Depends totally on how much gas you use a year.

Price for installation depending on what kind of instalation you want (computercontrolled injection or vacum), size/position of tank(s)

A new Chevy pickup running on 30% CNG and 70% diesel needs to cover 160.000 km to reach break even. According to Bangkok Post calculation.

A new Corolla BKK taxi reaches break even in less than a year with LPG, and some more time to cover the higher investment for CNG.

My last LPG was a 2000 Ford Excursion 6,8 liter V10 with 150 liter netto LPG tank, computercontrolled injection. Always started on gas, switched automaticly to LPG when engine reached 65 C. Ran at 1/3 of the gas price, and same engine power on gas and LPG. Did not reach break even in 2 years.

[sysmaster]

I know this is not relating to the topic but could some one tell me how much a conversion for LPG or CNG cost and and how many years would it take to recover the installation and would it be worth doing this on a 10 year old car?

You could browse/search through the forum with "lpg" as a keyword, there you will probably find all the answers.

A conversion for LPG goes between 19K for a fix mixer and 30~40K for a seq. injection. CNG is around 60K.

As the price difference between gasoline and LPG is less than a year ago, the recovery of your installation is taking a bit longer.

To get an estimate, take your average gasoline consumption per 100KM, add about 30% to that number to come to the estimated LPG consumption (fully depending on the type of installation, fix mixers burn a bit more, seq. injections less.)

multiply you average gasoline number by the current fuel price, do the same for the LPG/ngv number

assuming that your LPG/ngv price is lower... subtract it from the gasoline price, this gives you the money gain per 100 KM.

take the installation costs of your LPG/ngv system and divide it by the above difference, multiply by 100 to get the gain per KM.

now you have the distance in KM you have to drive to have it paid of.. depending on your annual mileage... you have now a rough estimate when it starts making money. (rough because you will still consume some gasoline in the warm-up phase of the engine, and that number you will only know after the installation and use of the conversion)

As to the 10 year old car... that fully depends on the engine type and overall quality of the car and engine.

Some engines are not at all suitable to have a LPG conversion, so it would be a "double" waste of money, since after a certain time you engine will give and your in for a new one...

[sysmaster]

When i have been following up second hand cars for sale, i find a lot have had LPG fitted in the past year. Anyone any experience of using it. is it any good, is the saving in running cost worth any potential problems with engine etc

As mentioned by others "be aware".

And.. stay away from Honda CRV's with LPG, they probably will have a ruined engine or will soon have.

(or they have to prove that they have a new cylinder-head with hardened valve-seats and valves)

Last year, a friend asked me if it would be possible to put LPG in his CRV, "Sure!!" I said...

now I'm feeling very sorry that I gave him the green light.

(he is still my friend, or the other way around, still considers me to be his friend...)

Since his CRV was not that old, thus having an engine for un-leaded fuel, should no be a problem.

(I should have investigated more....)

Now that he has the problems, I did some more investigating in EU forums, and found out that indeed the second generation CRV engines are not happy with LPG. In EU there is even an official advisory from Honda on that matter, with the technical's what will go wrong over time... (nicely fitting his current symptoms)

So beware, and do not trust the Gas installer's statement, they also gave him a green light, and now they tell him that indeed there might be problems related to LPG. (after the warranty is void)....

Before I did my own car, I spend months investigating and questioning EU LPG users that drive a Zafira 2.2, after I had a 85% green light I did go for it (the other 15% where more installation than usage related).

As I mentioned in a previous post, I was in to fix a "minor" problem, and one of their first statements was that it was the engine, there where know problems with Zafi engines...., "BS" I replied, there are thousands of Zafi's in EU that have been converted to LPG, and no engine problems what so ever, and ... the engines in TH Zafi's are the original Ecotec engines from Opel Germany, thus do not tell me it's the engine.

Well it wasn't, the problem where the gas injectors, over time (less than a year), the little pistons inside jammed up, this due to the grease used, hardening out. After cleaning and re-greasing them all trouble was over.

Hardening out is not an issue in EU climate... but here in TH, where it is a lot hotter under the hood than overthere.

I know that above is OT, but worth sharing...

[sysmaster]

Hello,

my friend is installing lpg systems in cars - ESGI 2 - and he says his clients are relly satidfied with it. It really makes the costs go down. It is importanta, especially now, when the petrol prices are going up. If you have a chance to do it - go ahead. ESGI 2 systems are one of the best, as far as I know.

I do not want to degrade the assumed quality of the product, but the company in Poland that (presumably) manufactures them is fairly new and only recently obtained TUV certification for their product.

This compared to the currently popular LPG systems.

[nilsen077]

Hello,

my friend is installing lpg systems in cars - ESGI 2 - and he says his clients are relly satidfied with it. It really makes the costs go down. It is importanta, especially now, when the petrol prices are going up. If you have a chance to do it - go ahead. ESGI 2 systems are one of the best, as far as I know.

I do not want to degrade the assumed quality of the product, but the company in Poland that (presumably) manufactures them is fairly new and only recently obtained TUV certification for their product.

This compared to the currently popular LPG systems.

Yes, that's true - it's a new company, but they managed to do R115 homologation for a lot of cars, they habe been approved by UKLPG, and they have G3 certificate. That's quite a lot as for a new company. The most important thing is that the system works - and works well. I do not know why I'm defending ESGI... They should be paying me for that :-) Have to call them.

[stingray]

I'm in the used car business and all the used cars fittet with LPG Systems we bought had serious problems whenn we try to running them on Gasoline. Older cars with carburetors not a big deal. But all newer cars with injections, engine management systems, electric fuel pumps and sensors got problems. Mosthly fuel gauges and fuel pumps and sensors not work anymore, because locals drove on LPG for years without a drop of Benzine in the tank. Fuel pump and fuel gauge sensors getting corrosion and die. Today we i don't buy any cars with LPG coversation anymore. To much headaches in the past and another reason: We don't want to be responsabile if one of our customers would "blow up".

[sysmaster]

I'm in the used car business and all the used cars fittet with LPG Systems we bought had serious problems whenn we try to running them on Gasoline. Older cars with carburetors not a big deal. But all newer cars with injections, engine management systems, electric fuel pumps and sensors got problems. Mosthly fuel gauges and fuel pumps and sensors not work anymore, because locals drove on LPG for years without a drop of Benzine in the tank. Fuel pump and fuel gauge sensors getting corrosion and die. Today we i don't buy any cars with LPG coversation anymore. To much headaches in the past and another reason: We don't want to be responsabile if one of our customers would "blow up".

I completely follow you there, irresponsible LPG car owners leave you with a wrecked system. Unfortunately, there are to many of them here.

Running Gas only, will ruin your injectors, fuel pump and related.

A few day's ago I came across an article in a UK forum on driving with an almost empty gasoline tank (and using LPG mostly).

Apparently modern cars with electrical fuel pumps that are mounted in the gasoline tank should have at least half a tank of gasoline all the time (in almost constant LPG mode driving). Reason being that average LPG systems do not shut of the gasoline pump when running LPG.

With little fuel around the pump, they tend to heat up and eventually fail. Half a tank provides enough "liquid" around the pump.

Generally there is no problem with the running fuel pump, they have an overpressure valve that will return the fuel to the tank, and are designed for constant running. But running them constantly in an almost "dry" condition will kill them.

And that's what you can get with a second hand car, also mostly the reason why they sold it.... there is some trouble ahead or already ran into it.

These problems can be fixed, but do cost, and since the previous owner has demonstrated that he is really on "cost saving", he will not spend the money. Also a bit of a local attitude, buy it, use it until it breaks, get rid of it.

[Jungian]

My father had a Chevy van and a Buick Park Avenue back in the 80's that ran on LPG, reason being my parents had a summer home in Canada and fuel has always been expensive there. All of the emergency vehicles in Canada run on LPG and it is readily available (which I'm not sure it is in Thailand, you may have to go out of your way for it). As I recall with just a flip of a switch the vehicles could either run gas or LPG, I also recall my father telling me you had to run gas from time to time otherwise the fuel line would dry rot.

According to my wife (and I did see it as well) during the fuel price inflation many noodle vendors turned in to LPG installers and the Thai government was even quite worried about this, with good reason to many cars, trucks and vans exploded. The Thai government went to the extent of offering a 5,000฿ discount coupon to have LPG installed by people that were certified to install LPG which caused the noodle vendors to drop their prices by 5,500฿ So, to answer your question running LPG is fine providing the installation is done properly, LPG is also more efficient and burns cleaner however as the price of gas and diesel have come back to a reasonable cost it may not be worth near the problems it could potentially cause.

[katabeachbum]

A LPG car has to run on petrol at least 5 minutes every day its being used. If not the petrol line/tank/pumps/valves is coroded and gaskets and o-rings crack. To avoid problems, keep the petrol tank full. And I did say petrol, not gasohol/E10-20.

A LPG car should never be started cold (I know thats 25-35C in LOS but still) on LPG, as the LPG condensator doesnt work well before 65C.

[Plus]

Looks like the cars that reached Stingray are all old, crude vacuum suction systems.

These days most people opt for injector heads, precisely for reasons outlined in Stingray's post.

The thing about fuel pump is interesting. I have never thought about it, but it makes a lot of sense. It costs nothing to drive with half a tank.

[monty]

I use both systems, the old vacuum and the new injected (in different cars )

Both shut down the complete fuel system including the fuel pump in the tank.

The main problem (on the old system) is that you manually have to start on petrol, just to keep your petrol system operational.

The newer system does it automatically, it will only switch to LPG when the engine is warm.

When starting the engine when warm already it switches after about 5 seconds AND when the RPM is over 1500, just to avoid it stalling during the switch over...

[sysmaster]

Looks like the cars that reached Stingray are all old, crude vacuum suction systems.

These days most people opt for injector heads, precisely for reasons outlined in Stingray's post.

The thing about fuel pump is interesting. I have never thought about it, but it makes a lot of sense. It costs nothing to drive with half a tank.

Reason why I stumbled onto that article is because I ran into trouble with my fuel system....

over the last months we where having more and more trouble starting the car in gasoline mode, up to the point that it wasn't possible anymore.

So, first diagnose, cracked fuel line in the gasoline tank, the overpressure return valve apparently didn't work as required, and the fuel line cracked.

The pump itself did also suffer, to the extend that after fixing problem 1, the technicians noticed that the fuel pressure at the injector rail was not sufficient anymore... new pump (8K thb).

about 4 days after the new pump was in, suddenly no way to start anymore.... the new hose had slipped of in the gasoline tank...

fixed.. until the day before yesterday, same problem again.

So, conclusion, add an extra relay that will shut down the fuel pump while driving on Gas. That should do it.

(from what I heard at Chev, I'm not the only one that suffers from a fuel circuit problem on LPG driven cars, specially with the type of fuel pump used.... seems not to be a problem with LPG driven Zafi's in Germany, probably they mount the extra relay immediately)

(the extra relay is needed, just cutting of the main fuel pump relay will bring the Zafi to a full stop because it also powers the injectors)

{by the way.. I suffer from some kind of "OCD", I do not buy a car if I can not have/find a copy of the shop manual... this does not mean that I will fix things myself, it helps when a mechanic tries to BS me.., or in this case to see the "booby trap" on the main fuel pump relay.}

[Plus]

Both shut down the complete fuel system including the fuel pump in the tank.

How can I check if it is shutdown in my car?

LPG/gasoline switch is instantaneious and unnoticable.

[sysmaster]

Both shut down the complete fuel system including the fuel pump in the tank.

How can I check if it is shutdown in my car?

LPG/gasoline switch is instantaneious and unnoticable.

I can only tell you how to check it in a Zafira, for a 2.2 engine you will see an aluminum tube in front of the engine, that has what might look as a "refill" nipple on it (black screw-on cap over it). One might think that it is aircon related.

This is your main fuel line to the injectors.

Main purpose of this nipple is to verify fuel pressure while the pump is running.

To see if the pump is switched off in LPG mode... remove the cap, take a cloth to wrap around the area to absorb possible gasoline spilling (you certainly do not want gasoline to drip/drop on your hot engine...)

In case the pump is still on, and pushing down the nipple, gasoline will exit from there under pressure, otherwise only a few drops or nothing at all exits from there

(just push it a little, the nipple isn't the best quality and might not seal properly after, when to much force is applied)

After the test and verified that in Gasoline mode there is no fuel exiting from that nipple, recap firmly with the black plastic cap.

There is no way that you would be able to hear the pump running, engine and exhaust noise will prevent that.

Alternatively, if you know where the electrical wiring to the pump goes, test if 12 V is supplied to the pump, if yes, the pump is on.

(if there is a connector, it might be easier to check, otherwise take a needle an stick it in the "hot" line to the pump, hold a voltage tester pin to the needle and the other one on a blank chassis or engine part the is guaranteed grounded)