Dodgy Books

[Cruzzer]

Hi guys,

Went to Pattaya today with the firm intention of buying a bike, but was quite turned off when I found out that the bike I wanted had a recycled green book and a re-stamped frame and engine number (looked really fake BTW). The owner said it was perfectly normal in Thailand, and that I would'nt have any problem whatsoever.

Pretty hard to believe, but it's a big shop that seems to have a lot of clients, so I wonder how does he get away with it?

I didn't tought that big bike dealerships like that were also going the "grey" way.

Are the chances of getting caught so slim?

[Dave the Dude]

Are the chances of getting caught so slim?

The chances are only slim once you move well away from 'Ferang Ghetto'/busy cities IMHO (like I have).

Otherwise,expect regular 'tea money' bribes & problems

Dave

[Netfan]

Walk away. Find a shop and bike with a good book and numbers. Things have changed. It might have been the way it was done in Thailand, but you buy a bike with a frame, book like that and you will constantly be worried about losing it. What happens when you have to renew the registration (pay annual road tax)? Or when you want to sell it? I'm only speaking from experience. I had to refund the money on a sale, take the bike back when the buyer had the book and bike rejected. Ended up selling to a shop at 2/3 of what I originally wanted, which was pretty good considering.

[basjke]

Hi guys,

Went to Pattaya today with the firm intention of buying a bike, but was quite turned off when I found out that the bike I wanted had a recycled green book and a re-stamped frame and engine number (looked really fake BTW). The owner said it was perfectly normal in Thailand, and that I would'nt have any problem whatsoever.

Pretty hard to believe, but it's a big shop that seems to have a lot of clients, so I wonder how does he get away with it?

I didn't tought that big bike dealerships like that were also going the "grey" way.

Are the chances of getting caught so slim?

I assume the big bike shop you are talking about is located on sukhumvit as he is well known for this.Almost every imported big bike in thailand is a grey import because if done the straight way it would be too expensive due to the high import taxes.

However this doesn't mean that a grey import can't have a legal registration book.The only problem is that making a legal book is time consuming and cost an amount of money but all by all a lot cheaper then importing the bike the straight way.

The bogus book route is maybe 30-40.000 baht cheaper and can be finished in a short time but will give you a problem at some time in the future for sure.

Years ago a recycled book was not such a big problem but at present times with the goverment offices been computerised and the watch on corruption it gets very risky.

[BigBikeBKK]

Good advice Netfan,

These days with more and more perfectly legal bikes in the Kingdom bikes with dodgy books are becoming more and more problematic. Why risk it? Netfan listed a number of good reasons to avoid such bikes. I'll add one more:

Insurance companies will be happy to take your money and sell you a policy, but if you ever need to make a claim you can be sure that the claim will be denied because your bike is not properly registered. The large print giveth and the small print taketh away!

Happy Trails!

[Cruzzer]

Walk away. Find a shop and bike with a good book and numbers. Things have changed. It might have been the way it was done in Thailand, but you buy a bike with a frame, book like that and you will constantly be worried about losing it. What happens when you have to renew the registration (pay annual road tax)? Or when you want to sell it? I'm only speaking from experience. I had to refund the money on a sale, take the bike back when the buyer had the book and bike rejected. Ended up selling to a shop at 2/3 of what I originally wanted, which was pretty good considering.

Well, checking if the numbers on book and bike are matching is easy, and they will most certainly match for sure. The hard part is to see if the numbers have been restamped.

In that case, it was easy because it was really poorly done, you could see the irregularities and modified numbers (like 1's turned into 7's and so on)

It's a really big shop with plenty of peoples coming in and out, buying bikes, getting their bike serviced, that's why I'm surprised that even popular places like that will sell you half/il -legal bikes and garantying you that everything is fine and you wont have any problem. (farang owned BTW)

[Cruzzer]

Good advice Netfan,

These days with more and more perfectly legal bikes in the Kingdom bikes with dodgy books are becoming more and more problematic. Why risk it? Netfan listed a number of good reasons to avoid such bikes. I'll add one more:

Insurance companies will be happy to take your money and sell you a policy, but if you ever need to make a claim you can be sure that the claim will be denied because your bike is not properly registered. The large print giveth and the small print taketh away!

Happy Trails!

Agree with you on this BigBikeBKK, but the question is... How can you find out if the registration is legit?

Except from buying through official importers of course.

[BigBikeBKK]

Good advice Netfan,

These days with more and more perfectly legal bikes in the Kingdom bikes with dodgy books are becoming more and more problematic. Why risk it? Netfan listed a number of good reasons to avoid such bikes. I'll add one more:

Insurance companies will be happy to take your money and sell you a policy, but if you ever need to make a claim you can be sure that the claim will be denied because your bike is not properly registered. The large print giveth and the small print taketh away!

Happy Trails!

Agree with you on this BigBikeBKK, but the question is... How can you find out if the registration is legit?

Except from buying through official importers of course.

If I buy a used bike I'll be taking the bike and book to the local DMV to make sure everything is on the up and up before the sale is completed and money changes hands.

I sold my last bike in Chiang Mai and it was a piece of cake. Chiang Mai DMV looked at my Green Book and inspected the bike to make sure everything matched up with what's in the book and also what's in their online database. Took all of 5 minutes and the transfer was done and sale complete.

If there are any problems they'll catch you at the inspection.

[Netfan]

Spot on BBB- when its legit and everything matches it can be done right away, its painless and cheap.

My experience started when the guy I dealt with changed the frame number, got me a book and told me "it's no problem - its Thailand and book is good". Yeah, in Pranburi it was fine (and this was 7 years ago). When i sold the bike to a guy in Bangkok he went in the next day and they caught it. The book came up right away on the computer as showing a different bike. They actually wanted to confiscate the bike, but in a wise move he told them he had driven over in his pick-up. The girl had handed him back the book to show him and he just walked out with it. So don't fall for the "it's Thailand, its the way things are done here" line.

[gobs]

Great and wise advices from BBB!

Nowadays NEVER "play" with green books if you want to get your way clear!

And many, many legit bikes for sale here in LOS. No problem to find a legit one in your "tastes"...

Good luck,

Gobs

[LivinLOS]

Good advice Netfan,

These days with more and more perfectly legal bikes in the Kingdom bikes with dodgy books are becoming more and more problematic. Why risk it? Netfan listed a number of good reasons to avoid such bikes. I'll add one more:

Insurance companies will be happy to take your money and sell you a policy, but if you ever need to make a claim you can be sure that the claim will be denied because your bike is not properly registered. The large print giveth and the small print taketh away!

Happy Trails!

1) Insurer's will insure bikes without any plate !! And people have reported being paid and paying other claimants on such policies !! If you crashed right now I bet you would hope the insurance would honour it ?? Yet you have no plate.

2) Also if the bike had a plate and book, and the stamps are 'properly' done.. How do you think they will do this.

I am not pro bad books, however, if the book and plater are 100% the correct bike, if the book is properly in the system, and the number appear 100% cleanly stamped with no 'flat spot' to show filing and its all well done. And of course the numbers are of the right frame / engine combo the bike should be.. Then the risk is to me minuscule.

[basjke]

Good advice Netfan,

These days with more and more perfectly legal bikes in the Kingdom bikes with dodgy books are becoming more and more problematic. Why risk it? Netfan listed a number of good reasons to avoid such bikes. I'll add one more:

Insurance companies will be happy to take your money and sell you a policy, but if you ever need to make a claim you can be sure that the claim will be denied because your bike is not properly registered. The large print giveth and the small print taketh away!

Happy Trails!

1) Insurer's will insure bikes without any plate !! And people have reported being paid and paying other claimants on such policies !! If you crashed right now I bet you would hope the insurance would honour it ?? Yet you have no plate.

2) Also if the bike had a plate and book, and the stamps are 'properly' done.. How do you think they will do this.

I am not pro bad books, however, if the book and plater are 100% the correct bike, if the book is properly in the system, and the number appear 100% cleanly stamped with no 'flat spot' to show filing and its all well done. And of course the numbers are of the right frame / engine combo the bike should be.. Then the risk is to me minuscule.

In your home country they put people in jail for falsify a registration book.Why you expect the law to be different in Thailand?

[LivinLOS]

Good advice Netfan,

These days with more and more perfectly legal bikes in the Kingdom bikes with dodgy books are becoming more and more problematic. Why risk it? Netfan listed a number of good reasons to avoid such bikes. I'll add one more:

Insurance companies will be happy to take your money and sell you a policy, but if you ever need to make a claim you can be sure that the claim will be denied because your bike is not properly registered. The large print giveth and the small print taketh away!

Happy Trails!

1) Insurer's will insure bikes without any plate !! And people have reported being paid and paying other claimants on such policies !! If you crashed right now I bet you would hope the insurance would honour it ?? Yet you have no plate.

2) Also if the bike had a plate and book, and the stamps are 'properly' done.. How do you think they will do this.

I am not pro bad books, however, if the book and plater are 100% the correct bike, if the book is properly in the system, and the number appear 100% cleanly stamped with no 'flat spot' to show filing and its all well done. And of course the numbers are of the right frame / engine combo the bike should be.. Then the risk is to me minuscule.

In your home country they put people in jail for falsify a registration book.Why you expect the law to be different in Thailand?

Sorry but thats a fake argument.. We are not in my home country, we are not in a world of black and white absolutes, we are in a world where law breaking is condoned continually (do you have your passport in your pocket every time you leave the house ??), prostitution is illegal, bars should close at 12pm outside of designated nightlife zones, helmets must be worn, businesses must pay tax, and have a multitude of license, etc etc.. Asia tolerates and encourages law breaking by not punishing it and rewarding those who do, it creates a system whereby the police can charge 'fines' to pay for themselves, its the Thai mindset.

Of course, dont do the crime if you cant do the time.. but also when in rome etc..

Again I say, if your in the big bike world, you have no way of truly knowing if the book is clean, unless your the first purchaser from a major major main dealer, recent allegations that TP's '100% legal' 80k registrations were coming from a bent chonburi customs guy show that. Basically the system is not clean and if you want to swim in the water you have to get a little grubby. How grubby is up to you, its an asian sliding scale of grime.

[BigBikeBKK]

Good advice Netfan,

These days with more and more perfectly legal bikes in the Kingdom bikes with dodgy books are becoming more and more problematic. Why risk it? Netfan listed a number of good reasons to avoid such bikes. I'll add one more:

Insurance companies will be happy to take your money and sell you a policy, but if you ever need to make a claim you can be sure that the claim will be denied because your bike is not properly registered. The large print giveth and the small print taketh away!

Happy Trails!

1) Insurer's will insure bikes without any plate !! And people have reported being paid and paying other claimants on such policies !! If you crashed right now I bet you would hope the insurance would honour it ?? Yet you have no plate.

2) Also if the bike had a plate and book, and the stamps are 'properly' done.. How do you think they will do this.

I am not pro bad books, however, if the book and plater are 100% the correct bike, if the book is properly in the system, and the number appear 100% cleanly stamped with no 'flat spot' to show filing and its all well done. And of course the numbers are of the right frame / engine combo the bike should be.. Then the risk is to me minuscule.

In your home country they put people in jail for falsify a registration book.Why you expect the law to be different in Thailand?

Sorry but thats a fake argument.. We are not in my home country, we are not in a world of black and white absolutes, we are in a world where law breaking is condoned continually (do you have your passport in your pocket every time you leave the house ??), prostitution is illegal, bars should close at 12pm outside of designated nightlife zones, helmets must be worn, businesses must pay tax, and have a multitude of license, etc etc.. Asia tolerates and encourages law breaking by not punishing it and rewarding those who do, it creates a system whereby the police can charge 'fines' to pay for themselves, its the Thai mindset.

Of course, dont do the crime if you cant do the time.. but also when in rome etc..

Again I say, if your in the big bike world, you have no way of truly knowing if the book is clean, unless your the first purchaser from a major major main dealer, recent allegations that TP's '100% legal' 80k registrations were coming from a bent chonburi customs guy show that. Basically the system is not clean and if you want to swim in the water you have to get a little grubby. How grubby is up to you, its an asian sliding scale of grime.

Ahem, with respect, it is your CHOICE to play on what you call the "asian sliding scale of grime"... I chose to go the 100% legal and legit route and buy from Kawasaki. There are plenty of other LEGITIMATE dealers in Thailand- BMW, Triumph, Ducati, HD, Yamaha, and soon Honda. With the ready availability of completely legal bikes and the increasing vigilence of the authorities the days of grey imports and dodgy books are numbered.

[LivinLOS]

Wheres there a legit Harley Davidson main dealer ?? Not grey importer ?? I wasnt aware of one.

Triumph has only been here a year or two..

But I am talking about the second hand market, probably 90% or more of the big bikes in the country.. Sure theres new bike main dealers, but once your buying a machine second hand, or from any of the non official importers this is the reality of the market.

Did you never have a big bike here before Kwaker came with its sub 400k brand new machines ?? I am now up to my 5th second hand 'big bike', I buy deals I see and often find bikes for mates.. When you go look at these steeds, magnas, baby blades, zx9's, buells, etc etc etc that fill the second hand market this is the reality of it. You simply CANNOT know if a bike has been grey booked in the past, if its done right, and its in the computer system, as a buyer (or as a cop) you cant tell. So its always a crap shoot. The point is to increase your odds of it not biting you in the ass.

[BigBikeBKK]

Wheres there a legit Harley Davidson main dealer ?? Not grey importer ?? I wasnt aware of one.

HARLEY-DAVIDSON of BANGKOK, Thailand Authorized Harley-Davidson service, parts, and accessories center in Thailand.

Triumph has only been here a year or two..

That's odd- didn't they just throw a 5 year anniversary bash at the Chiang Mai Bike Week?

Edited February 5, 2009 by BigBikeBKK

[thaicbr]

Tony are you sure the bike bash was not for TRIUMPH rather than Britbike. i think its about 5 years for the factory. but only about 2 years or so for Britbikes. and they are NOT listed on Triumphs UK website which shows all official Dealers.

Allan

[BigBikeBKK]

Tony are you sure the bike bash was not for TRIUMPH rather than Britbike. i think its about 5 years for the factory. but only about 2 years or so for Britbikes. and they are NOT listed on Triumphs UK website which shows all official Dealers.

Allan

You may very well be correct Allan. I was too busy enjoying the free drinks and lovely ladies to really pay close attention to who was actually throwing the party I'm sure Pikey will chime in and clear up any confusion shortly. (Except perhaps that he was more messed up than me... )

[LivinLOS]

To my knowledge Britbikes as a main dealer was only here a year or two back ?? I also wasnt aware that powerstation was a legit harley authorised dealer..

So basically until fairly recently there was Yamaha, BMW, Ducati and possibly harley ?? And bikes purchased directly from these 4 sources make up how many of the big bikes in Thailand ?? 3% ?? 5% ?? So if your buying a second hand bike you have a 95% chance that it didnt come through those channels.. Better get ready for those shades of grey I was talking about, becuase unless you personally paid the taxes yourself, you basically never know. No matter what your told, no matter what the book says, no matter what the dealer says, you simply dont know.

I could also point out that down here, out of the capital, where I am, we dont have Ducati or the Harley place so we essentially had Yammy and BMW (and the BMW place closed and re-opened leaving service and warranty issues very much in the air for a while). Go to any one of the 'big bike' dealers on the island (west coast cycles, big twin, etc) and look at the stock. Its ALL of questionable papers. So sure you can choose not to buy them, or work out how the system works and what risks are there.

[Richard-BKK]

You can claim warranty and service at every official BMW dealer, sure some have more experience dealing with motorcycles then others, but BMW Thailand is pretty clear about its warranty.

[LivinLOS]

Yes thats all well and good.. But people bought bikes and then the dealer closed (I understand it re-opened ?? under new management ??) and then they had no local service center.

Its all well and good saying 'go to Ducati' but when ducati is 1000kms away it kinda makes those oil filters an awkward service ?!?!

[Richard-BKK]

Did not know that Barcelona Auto Co. Ltd the official BMW dealer for Phuket ever closed for business?

[JimsKnight]

Good advice Netfan,

These days with more and more perfectly legal bikes in the Kingdom bikes with dodgy books are becoming more and more problematic. Why risk it? Netfan listed a number of good reasons to avoid such bikes. I'll add one more:

Insurance companies will be happy to take your money and sell you a policy, but if you ever need to make a claim you can be sure that the claim will be denied because your bike is not properly registered. The large print giveth and the small print taketh away!

Happy Trails!

1) Insurer's will insure bikes without any plate !! And people have reported being paid and paying other claimants on such policies !! If you crashed right now I bet you would hope the insurance would honour it ?? Yet you have no plate.

2) Also if the bike had a plate and book, and the stamps are 'properly' done.. How do you think they will do this.

I am not pro bad books, however, if the book and plater are 100% the correct bike, if the book is properly in the system, and the number appear 100% cleanly stamped with no 'flat spot' to show filing and its all well done. And of course the numbers are of the right frame / engine combo the bike should be.. Then the risk is to me minuscule.

In your home country they put people in jail for falsify a registration book.Why you expect the law to be different in Thailand?

Sorry but thats a fake argument.. We are not in my home country, we are not in a world of black and white absolutes, we are in a world where law breaking is condoned continually (do you have your passport in your pocket every time you leave the house ??), prostitution is illegal, bars should close at 12pm outside of designated nightlife zones, helmets must be worn, businesses must pay tax, and have a multitude of license, etc etc.. Asia tolerates and encourages law breaking by not punishing it and rewarding those who do, it creates a system whereby the police can charge 'fines' to pay for themselves, its the Thai mindset.

Of course, dont do the crime if you cant do the time.. but also when in rome etc..

Again I say, if your in the big bike world, you have no way of truly knowing if the book is clean, unless your the first purchaser from a major major main dealer, recent allegations that TP's '100% legal' 80k registrations were coming from a bent chonburi customs guy show that. Basically the system is not clean and if you want to swim in the water you have to get a little grubby. How grubby is up to you, its an asian sliding scale of grime.

With you on that one L.

If you know the right people and bribe the officials you will end up with a green-book legit 100% that flies through the system. It's clean, but not in the eyes of the west. But TIT, East is East people.

[LivinLOS]

Did not know that Barcelona Auto Co. Ltd the official BMW dealer for Phuket ever closed for business?

Yeah something happened.. Maybe 12 months back maybe more (hard to remember) they shut up shop and were not doing services anymore, that might have been the bike side only but that flies against your comment that any BMW dealer in Thailand will service bikes (which I find kind of incredible but no idea).. I knwo 2 guys that bought 650GS's new there and they were both most unhappy at the time as they paid the premium specifically so they had parts and dealer support. I do know that only after a couple of months it all got sorted and service resumed but not sure what changed.

[Richard-BKK]

Very disturbing to hear that, we have a BMW Xmoto which we bought from Barcelona Auto Co. Ltd, but then the Bangkok office, it has the same owner and is the same company, the same counts for all other locations in Thailand.

So please can you enlighten me when Barcelona Auto Co. Ltd closed the shop and left customers unsupported?

I just got a email from [email protected] and they said they are closed on Sunday. They did not closes for longer then a few days, they confirmed they where closed for Chinese New Year 4 days... (but then I not belief you mean that) also I called them talk to a Khun Sue and she also did not know what I was talking about 076-236-688...

Edited February 5, 2009 by Richard-BKK

[LivinLOS]

I will ask my mate next time I see him, this was during a management or staff change.. For a time it looked like they were leaving / closing.

[BigBikeBKK]

Hey LivinLOS-

Did the Britbike showroom in Phuket close?

Cheers!

Tony

[Richard-BKK]

Barcelona Auto Co. Ltd also has branches in Bangkok (head), Chiang Mai and maybe more I cannot remember... I bough a bike from them some time back.

[LivinLOS]

Hey LivinLOS-

Did the Britbike showroom in Phuket close?

Cheers!

Tony

Nope Britbikes been here for a couple of months now..

But none of these dealerships change the fact tho, that ANY second hand bike (even a triumph, or ducati, or BMW) comes with a book you cant prove !! You can limit your risks (having main dealer receipts would cut it down) but how do you know the bike wasnt written off and a a unregged one sourced and modified to fit the papers. Theres a hot trade in books on written off bikes (and high end cars, the value of a late model written of merc book must be in 7 digits !!).

Tony ?? Did you really never buy a second hand bike here ??

[BigBikeBKK]

Hey LivinLOS-

Did the Britbike showroom in Phuket close?

Cheers!

Tony

Nope Britbikes been here for a couple of months now..

But none of these dealerships change the fact tho, that ANY second hand bike (even a triumph, or ducati, or BMW) comes with a book you cant prove !! You can limit your risks (having main dealer receipts would cut it down) but how do you know the bike wasnt written off and a a unregged one sourced and modified to fit the papers. Theres a hot trade in books on written off bikes (and high end cars, the value of a late model written of merc book must be in 7 digits !!).

Tony ?? Did you really never buy a second hand bike here ??

Hi LivinLOS,

Nope- for all of the reasons outlined in this thread and more I have never bought a second hand bike in Thailand. (Then again mate- I've only been living here full time for the last 2 years) Before that I still had my CBR 600 F2 in Japan so I did most of my riding in the Land of the Rising Sun and was content to drive 4 wheeled vehicles in the Land of Smiles and occasionally rent a bike up north.

I gotta say, I still don't understand what you mean when you talk about a "book you can't prove"... The way to "prove" a book is to take the book and the bike to the DMV. Now I understand the Phuket DMV are being bastards, and that's often a challenge in Thailand- that different offices do things differently, but when I sold my Ninja in Chiang Mai it was an incredibly easy and pleasant experience and the buyer knows 110% that the bike he bought from me is 100% legit.

Happy Trails!

Tony