Something Eek Said In Another Thread.

[LadyHeather]

Well, SiamSuzi, I would be very wary of trusting too many westerners here either. Something about Thailand attracts the dodgiest of characters.

[SiamSuzi]

I'm not too trusting of anyone. Not since I've been staying in Thailand.

[mssabai]

Siam Suzi...forgive me for saying this, but you really don't seem very happy. Do you have to stay in Thailand? Why are you here if you don't trust anyone? How about moving on to somewhere you do feel more comfortable?

What you give out in this world is what you get back. Give out negative distrustful vibes and they will come right back atcha. Yeah I have had a few scam artist taxi drivers, surly shop girls and stroppy market traders, but I have also had the same amount, if not more, or people who have been absolutely lovely and gone out of their way to help me for no gain to themselves (or maybe just a few bragging points with the neighbours!).

OK I have never lived in BKK but have visited lots and love it. Second only to London. The people I meet there are like any other metropolis - the good the bad and the ugly. It is westernized and materialistic and hard bloody work living there so people do tend to be more insular. I was the same living in London. Outside of BKK and tourist areas life is slower and the reactions you get are generally better, but even living on Koh Samui and Phangan I have met some amazing people who seemed to think it was there duty to take me under their wing....western and Thai. I have trusted them and they in turn have trusted me.

Gonna sound like a right old hippy now, but instead of walking around not making eye contact and fearing everyone's motives...how about spending a day walking round with your head held high, making eye contact, smiling at people and trying to get the best out of them?

[SiamSuzi]

Siam Suzi...forgive me for saying this, but you really don't seem very happy. Do you have to stay in Thailand? Why are you here if you don't trust anyone? How about moving on to somewhere you do feel more comfortable?

What you give out in this world is what you get back. Give out negative distrustful vibes and they will come right back atcha. Yeah I have had a few scam artist taxi drivers, surly shop girls and stroppy market traders, but I have also had the same amount, if not more, or people who have been absolutely lovely and gone out of their way to help me for no gain to themselves (or maybe just a few bragging points with the neighbours!).

OK I have never lived in BKK but have visited lots and love it. Second only to London. The people I meet there are like any other metropolis - the good the bad and the ugly. It is westernized and materialistic and hard bloody work living there so people do tend to be more insular. I was the same living in London. Outside of BKK and tourist areas life is slower and the reactions you get are generally better, but even living on Koh Samui and Phangan I have met some amazing people who seemed to think it was there duty to take me under their wing....western and Thai. I have trusted them and they in turn have trusted me.

Gonna sound like a right old hippy now, but instead of walking around not making eye contact and fearing everyone's motives...how about spending a day walking round with your head held high, making eye contact, smiling at people and trying to get the best out of them?

Well Mssabai, your assumptions about me couldn't be more incorrect.

In fact, I do walk with my head held high, smiling, and being in general good spirit.

You say you've never lived here, so perhaps you don't know what it's like to actually live here. I had previously VISITED here and thought it was the most wonderful place! It wasn't until I started LIVING here that I began to actually notice what lies beneath the surface that tends to shields the eyes of short term VISITORS. So please don't make assumptions about me, particularly based on context that you don't have experience with.

I've also been outside of BKK and I'll agree with you, it's a bit milder. However I am living INSIDE Bkk, and if I am to be as oblivious and nieve as you seem to think I should be, I'd be eaten alive.... or dead. Same same. I don't think you have any idea of some of the things that go on here on a regular basis. Things which I haven't mentioned on this forum. I suspect you may have a shield covering your eyes. I'm good natured, but through my experiences here, I've begun wisening up to the way of this city. Try not to make assumptions.

And as for spending my time "trying to get the best out of" people, well frankly, if someone is going to treat me like crap, they don't deserve my time or attention. That goes for anyone in any country.

Edited March 16, 2009 by SiamSuzi

[SiamSuzi]

Also, what I type into this internet forum is hardly accurate of how I behave in public (which by default is courteous, polite, and respectful).

[mssabai]

It wasn't meant to be an attack...just an observation about different kinds of people I have met. The ones who are guarded and distrustful tend to have the roughest time is all. No I haven't lived in Bangkok but I have lived in Thailand for 3 years so I am not speaking without any experience. I do have a very good idea of a lot of stuff that happens in Thailand (beneath the veil as it were), I speak Thai, I am in a Thai relationship and I am a teacher in Thai schools. I don't have rose tinted glasses, so please don't patronise me. But even though I have seen the darker side, doesn't mean that I haven't also seen a lot of the good stuff too - hence why I can still call it my home.

Anyhow, we obviously all have different expereinces. I am just glad mine isn't like yours.

[sbk]

Yes, I get the rose colored glasses accusation alot too mssabai, which would be really astonishing if still true after 20 years in Thailand!

That said, we all have bad days, and if we can't vent here then where can we vent?

But, I always try to remember what my mom used to say (yes, my famous mother --wisest and kindest woman I have ever known )when she'd see someone behaving like a jerk. Instead of saying, "what a jerk" she would say, "I wonder what went wrong in that persons' life today to make them act this way". Its a much kinder way to live and far less stressful to boot.

[spectrum]

Discussions about negative experiences in Thailand often seem to play out along these same lines.

I would suggest that, beyond giving out "positive vibes", how comfortable a person may or may not feel in another culture will vary according to a variety of influences, both internal and external.

For all of us, living in a new culture is an adaptation. If we are highly motivated to adapt, we will.

If there's no particular motivation to adapt, my guess is that personal values and personality traits will be more likely to play a part in our response to our surroundings. For instance, a highly idealistic person will find certain aspects of life in BKK more abrasive, unsettling and stressful than a person with a personality/value system which places less emphasis on idealism. (Please note, this has nothing to do with value judgements. We all have roughly measurable personality traits, and idealism is one of those. We also import our own culturally instilled beliefs, also roughly measurable.)

Personally, I can find BKK interesting for a day or two, but then the harshness of it all will begin to get to me. I can understand where Siam Suzi is writing from. I can see that she isn't "venting" about "a bad day" but is telling us her overall response to her environment, having lived there for some time.

[SiamSuzi]

Discussions about negative experiences in Thailand often seem to play out along these same lines.

I would suggest that, beyond giving out "positive vibes", how comfortable a person may or may not feel in another culture will vary according to a variety of influences, both internal and external.

For all of us, living in a new culture is an adaptation. If we are highly motivated to adapt, we will.

If there's no particular motivation to adapt, my guess is that personal values and personality traits will be more likely to play a part in our response to our surroundings. For instance, a highly idealistic person will find certain aspects of life in BKK more abrasive, unsettling and stressful than a person with a personality/value system which places less emphasis on idealism. (Please note, this has nothing to do with value judgements. We all have roughly measurable personality traits, and idealism is one of those. We also import our own culturally instilled beliefs, also roughly measurable.)

Personally, I can find BKK interesting for a day or two, but then the harshness of it all will begin to get to me. I can understand where Siam Suzi is writing from. I can see that she isn't "venting" about "a bad day" but is telling us her overall response to her environment, having lived there for some time.

It's true... I may be somewhat idealistic. I'm working on that however. Learning to be a bit more c'est la vie. Still, I don't ever see myself lowering my own personal morals and values. For example, I will never EVER view it as okay to shove a young girl who's obviously just come out of surgery; bandanged up with tubes coming out of her shirt with blood collection cups hanging from the ends. I don't care if monks are standing close by, it will never be right in my eyes to physically shove someone in that condition to make sure their purse doesn't accidentally brush against a monk.

Call it cultural differences, me being uptight, call it what ever you want to call it. I will never think it's okay to physically put your hands on someone else, especially a young girl in that condition.

ANYWAYS, let's get back to the original topic of this thread. It's not about my personal views, and I've grown tired of explaining myself.

[patklang]

I think many Western men in Thailand have had bad experiences with Western ladies thus they have tried to demonize them resulting in such behavior.

You are spot on. And while I have enormous pity for these guys, I go to great lengths to avoid being around them in my daily life. When I was on the market for accommodation, I searched for an area in BKK that is not saturated with those I've dubbed the Western Walking Wounded. I've never been to Pattaya for the same reason.

Every once in awhile I'll be on Suk or similar and I'll catch the attention of one of the WWW. It's an alarming sensation as all that hatred concentrated in my direction can be intense.

Ah, and before I forget, this forum has its fair share of those making harsh statements about Western women. Not so much now that the gals have become moderators, but it's still there.

I've had long conversations with some via email and they are honestly nice guys. But they were deeply hurt by women in their home countries and can't seem to let it go. A fair number lost money via divorce, and seems a chunk of their self-esteem went with it. Some brand all Western women with the same negative attributes as their ex(wives, girlfriends, whatever). I don't know how they tie this feeling in with their mothers, sisters, aunts and grandmothers.

Now that I've been here a few years, I'm equally surprised when I look up to find a Western man beaming, then flirting with me. That's something that happens often in the West but not so often in Thailand.

If I didn't avoid eye contact with Western men (edit) on the street, I'd be sure to notice more of one or the other. But that's one thing I've changed about the way I operate in Thailand. I'm shy anyway so it's not my nature to walk about looking directly at people I don't know, but even more than before, I now ignore Western men - (edit) strangers on the street - because I just don't want the possibility of their nastiness disrupting my fantastic day. And as long as I don't see it, it doesn't exist. Sad. Other Western women have said that they've started doing the same.

So guys, if you notice that some Western women ignore you, it's not really about you. We do love being around Western guys, but TIT.

It is sad, but I really get what you are saying! I find myself doing the same thing sometimes (avoiding western strangers) when I am in Thailand, you just never know what you are going to get. I have probably missed out on meeting some great people due to this. I think it depends on my mood, I have met some great "strangers" that I still maintain contact with to this day and they have enriched my life. I am speaking from a male perspective here, so maybe it's easier for me to disengage from an unpleasant meeting with another western guy than it is for a western woman to do so, I don't know for sure. Although, I think Boo and SBK might give me a run for my money when it comes to "disengaging"!

ALERT ALERT ALERT

Now you are in big trouble,Boo will have a huge fit now.

[patklang]

I dont think most women here hate or even dislike western men TruthWillOut. Just some of us are cautious, thats all. I have rarely read comments on here where western women are complaining, belittling, and using any excuse to get a dig in on western men (unless used in retaliation), and never heard it directly from women here. But yet, I have read a LOT of negative (and sometimes downright disgraceful) comments from western men here on ThaiVisa. Sometimes I have overhead conversations (with no intention of overhearing. Just some seem to not care who might hear them), about the comparison of western women and asian women in cafe's etc. Usually talking as though we are objects and not real people. Some going into really gross detail. Usually those men arent aware that im sitting nearby, and usually look sheepish if they notice me (but not always).

Thankfully its rare that I would hear something like that.

Thankfully too that I know a lot of lovely men, with normal attitudes toward women.

Western men who have little respect for Western women(or any nationality) do not cloud my judgement towards other western men, but reading negative comments and the occasional bad attitude do make me cautious.

EEK,i wouldnt worry.these type of farangs have no respect for thai women neither.They are first class slobs who fall for the Thailand life style and think they are hansum men.Many of us expat farangs think they are obnoxious too.

[sbk]

Well, apparently you can call me Mrs Magoo

I asked my husband about this dirty looks thing, just in case its something I haven't noticed and he said, no he's never seen Western guys giving me dirty looks. Looking, yes, but most definitely not the evil eye.

He said the evil eye usually comes from younger Thai women who see us together and they glare at me. I must say I never noticed. He said its subtle and he's never called attention to it because he didn't want me to get upset. But, he said, it is usually Thai women under the age of about 35 giving me the dirty looks when I am with him. Hmmmm.... I had no idea.

Oh well, I guess its better to be Mrs Magoo and not have upset feelings than to notice everything and elevate my blood pressure

[F1fanatic]

Siam Suzi...forgive me for saying this, but you really don't seem very happy. Do you have to stay in Thailand? Why are you here if you don't trust anyone? How about moving on to somewhere you do feel more comfortable?

What you give out in this world is what you get back. Give out negative distrustful vibes and they will come right back atcha. Yeah I have had a few scam artist taxi drivers, surly shop girls and stroppy market traders, but I have also had the same amount, if not more, or people who have been absolutely lovely and gone out of their way to help me for no gain to themselves (or maybe just a few bragging points with the neighbours!).

OK I have never lived in BKK but have visited lots and love it. Second only to London. The people I meet there are like any other metropolis - the good the bad and the ugly. It is westernized and materialistic and hard bloody work living there so people do tend to be more insular. I was the same living in London. Outside of BKK and tourist areas life is slower and the reactions you get are generally better, but even living on Koh Samui and Phangan I have met some amazing people who seemed to think it was there duty to take me under their wing....western and Thai. I have trusted them and they in turn have trusted me.

Gonna sound like a right old hippy now, but instead of walking around not making eye contact and fearing everyone's motives...how about spending a day walking round with your head held high, making eye contact, smiling at people and trying to get the best out of them?

Well Mssabai, your assumptions about me couldn't be more incorrect.

In fact, I do walk with my head held high, smiling, and being in general good spirit.

You say you've never lived here, so perhaps you don't know what it's like to actually live here. I had previously VISITED here and thought it was the most wonderful place! It wasn't until I started LIVING here that I began to actually notice what lies beneath the surface that tends to shields the eyes of short term VISITORS. So please don't make assumptions about me, particularly based on context that you don't have experience with.

I've also been outside of BKK and I'll agree with you, it's a bit milder. However I am living INSIDE Bkk, and if I am to be as oblivious and nieve as you seem to think I should be, I'd be eaten alive.... or dead. Same same. I don't think you have any idea of some of the things that go on here on a regular basis. Things which I haven't mentioned on this forum. I suspect you may have a shield covering your eyes. I'm good natured, but through my experiences here, I've begun wisening up to the way of this city. Try not to make assumptions.

And as for spending my time "trying to get the best out of" people, well frankly, if someone is going to treat me like crap, they don't deserve my time or attention. That goes for anyone in any country.

I can't believe someone was brave enough to say out loud my view of Thailand!

I too "walk with my head held high, smiling, and being in general good spirit", but realise that the truth behind the 'smiles' was not quite what I had thought on my numerous holidays!

Having said that (having lived here for 3 years), even in a tourist mecca like Phuket the 'smiles' are obviously not genuine, but if you're friendly back, they can become genuine as they realise that you're not the typical farang stereotype, but a genuine, friendly woman. I actually had one market stall holder say to me (after I'd been there for veg a few times) "you so happy, thank you"!

As for the 'farang' men, I think I've said before - some are GREAT, but there are a few (and you really don't want to meet them) that have such a chip on their shoulders 'cos Western women don't like them, they're to be avoided like the plague!

[Lozfranco]

I'll chime in here because this topic has been on my mind lately. I can't speak for everyone else, but I've had a pretty difficult time. I came here a number of years ago with my boyfriend and had such a lovely time that I've returned, only this time on my own. My experience this time has been often terrible. I attribute it to the fact that there is not a white man at my side that people are busy catering to. I experience the occasional look of contempt from other farang. I suspect that they are idiots who truly believe that all Thai women are sweet little flowers compared to farang women. They are probably spending all their money on whores.

I am also the target con artists trying to scam me out of my money. At times it's terribly difficult to catch a taxi anywhere because I insist on using the meter. The drivers assume that because I'm young, Western, and blonde, that I'm a dumbass and will believe when they say that 450 baht is a good deal because there's "so much traffic" or it's "so far away". Obviously I know better and refuse, yet they will lie and try to pursuade me out of my wallet until they haven't any breath left to lie with. Sometimes I have to try 5 or 6 times before I can get a taxi that will just use the damned meter. I also have to pay attention to the route they are taking because sometimes they will attempt to take the "long" way to jack up the meter. The **** even have the nerve to act like they don't understand English when I object, though they were understanding English just fine during our casual conversation that THEY struck up only moments before. This type of crap applies not only to taxi drivers, but in a long list of other circumstances as well.

I am also treated like a piece of shit by so many Thai women. Whether it's the**** behind the counter at the 7-11 that I stopped frequenting because she rips items out of my hand, throws them in a bag and then throws the bag at me, or the ****who step right in front of me while I've been waiting in a long line at stores, or girls who simply roll their eyes as I walk by minding my own business, etc., the list goes on.

Maybe I'm too polite, but that's beginning to change because I'm actually getting sick of this place. In many ways, I can't wait to get back home to the country that treats me fairly, or at least when they treat me like shit it's for some reason other than the color of my skin.

I thought I loved this country, but now I see that the only reason people were being so nice on my last visit is because they were trying to get the money they assumed that my white boyfriend had plenty of. Now that I'm solo, there's no one who's presence keeps the hounds at bay.

Seriously, every day here I spend part of it enjoying the pleasant things that make it unique, and part of it in disgust by the people who make it vile and nasty.

I admit, I'm in a bad mood right now. But it's not because I woke up that way, it's because of the people who rained on what would have otherwise been a sunny day.

Your negative attitude will do you no good at all, try to be a little more positive and try to speak thai to the **** that are attempting to rip you off.

As for the 7/11 ***** are you stood on the other side of her counter frowning with your ***** nose in the air? Try to smile and be pleasant and the same will be returned.

You sound like you're on holiday, so don't worry too much you will soon be back in your own country with the wind and rain.

[eek]

Well, apparently you can call me Mrs Magoo

I asked my husband about this dirty looks thing, just in case its something I haven't noticed and he said, no he's never seen Western guys giving me dirty looks. Looking, yes, but most definitely not the evil eye.

He said the evil eye usually comes from younger Thai women who see us together and they glare at me. I must say I never noticed. He said its subtle and he's never called attention to it because he didn't want me to get upset. But, he said, it is usually Thai women under the age of about 35 giving me the dirty looks when I am with him. Hmmmm.... I had no idea.

Oh well, I guess its better to be Mrs Magoo and not have upset feelings than to notice everything and elevate my blood pressure

Aint nothing wrong with being Mrs Magoo sbk!

Would like to know just one thing about your post though, regarding the younger Thai woman who gave a glare. What did your husband propose is the reason for that?

Im only asking because occasionally ive sensed something similar, but not often! I also remember one very clear particular time when shopping with my bf in a nice department store and a lady (who was actually around the same age i would say and very smartly dressed) gave me the strongest daggers i have ever seen! I looked away two times as she was coming down the aisle as I thought maybe i was mistaken. But she held her eyes..which were like steel, until she passed me by (looking directly at me like she had just bitten a lemon). My bf and I were only discussing a fridge for heaven sake. No idea what prompted such a strong response.

THe image has stayed with me, but im not phased by it. Just seemed like a very odd strong reaction for no conceivable reason.

Edited March 18, 2009 by eek

[sbk]

He said he thinks that perhaps its because I have what they want (not him necessarily) but a decent, successful Thai guy. We are a very normal looking couple, not hippies, have a nice new truck, wear decent clothes etc etc.

***edit, when I first got here and we first started dating I am sure I was on every local Thai girl's hit list. I regularly got the "daggers" from girls who had hoped to someday snag my husband. He was (and still is) quite a catch. Well-to-do, local, land owning family, doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, doesn't gamble and yes, I am sure, doesn't womanize. A rarity indeed

[eek]

Interesting sbk, tnx.

[sbk]

Its just his take on things, he might be right, he might be wrong.

[F1fanatic]

Its just his take on things, he might be right, he might be wrong.

He's absolutely right - everyone loves you. No idea where all these Westerners get the idea that underneath all the smiles they don't actually love you.

If they shove you aside when you've got IV tubes hanging off you, it's irrelevant - they still love you, they just forgot for a moment that you are a human being.

[sbk]

Scuse me? What are you talking about? You know, seriously, you should probably just go home. You cannot hate half a population and remain healthy.

[F1fanatic]

Scuse me? What are you talking about? You know, seriously, you should probably just go home. You cannot hate half a population and remain healthy.

Sorry to burst your bubble SBK, I don't 'hate' half the population - just the money-seeking prostitutes and the Western men who finance them.

If you honestly believe this stereotype is a myth, then ask your friends back in the West how they think of Thailand. I actually had a friend say she didn't want to come here 'cos she'd heard it was nothing but a brothel!

I told her that's not quite true, but it is the conception.

[sbk]

And I was not even talking about those kinds of girls. Not all Thai women are shoving you aside, not all Thai women are bar girls. Not all western men are sex tourists.

I, for one, am heartily tired of this constant presumption that because I don't wholeheartedly agree with an utterly negative attitude about everyone I meet that i must somehow be naive. I have lived in this country for 20 years. I suspect I am far more aware of what is going on than you are giving me credit for. Please drop the presumption of superior knowledge ok?

[Boo]

If they shove you aside when you've got IV tubes hanging off you, it's irrelevant - they still love you, they just forgot for a moment that you are a human being.

huh? Wasn't it Siamsuzo that this happened to? What has this got to do with sbk??

[GrahamF]

Well, apparently you can call me Mrs Magoo

I asked my husband about this dirty looks thing, just in case its something I haven't noticed and he said, no he's never seen Western guys giving me dirty looks. Looking, yes, but most definitely not the evil eye.

He said the evil eye usually comes from younger Thai women who see us together and they glare at me. I must say I never noticed. He said its subtle and he's never called attention to it because he didn't want me to get upset. But, he said, it is usually Thai women under the age of about 35 giving me the dirty looks when I am with him. Hmmmm.... I had no idea.

Oh well, I guess its better to be Mrs Magoo and not have upset feelings than to notice everything and elevate my blood pressure

I have sometimes gotten "daggers" from Western females (usually middle-aged) when I am out and about with a good female (thai) friend of mine, not a g/f btw. She's not much younger than me, and we are usually pretty well dressed, so we don't look like too much of a mismatch. Anyone else have/seen this happen?

[Misty]

He said he thinks that perhaps its because I have what they want (not him necessarily) but a decent, successful Thai guy. We are a very normal looking couple, not hippies, have a nice new truck, wear decent clothes etc etc.

***edit, when I first got here and we first started dating I am sure I was on every local Thai girl's hit list. I regularly got the "daggers" from girls who had hoped to someday snag my husband. He was (and still is) quite a catch. Well-to-do, local, land owning family, doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, doesn't gamble and yes, I am sure, doesn't womanize. A rarity indeed

sbk, your husband sounds like an absolute sweety. Does he have a brother? (Not for me--I'm pretty lucky in this area and my husband is close to being a farang equivalent, but... I have this friend... )

[girlx]

I asked my husband about this dirty looks thing, just in case its something I haven't noticed and he said, no he's never seen Western guys giving me dirty looks. Looking, yes, but most definitely not the evil eye.

sbk mentioned this earlier but the longer i live here (and the more i understand the language and mannerisms) the more i realize how paranoid i can be sometimes that thai people are giving me dirty looks or talking crap about me... it's fear of the unknown maybe... unless you stay a long time in one area you are not likely to be so important in any thai person's life that they expend any effort towards degrading you on a personal level (on a superficial, fleeting level maybe but who really cares about that?). most conversations around me seem to be about food!

still, people in bangkok can be pretty gruff and unfriendly, and i suppose that is what sparked siamsuzi's post... i do not think she is wrong, it definitely is a less friendly place here. but i recommend not taking it too seriously, start noticing the people who are nice as well and you will feel better. if you don't maybe move to another area of thailand? (like i will soon)....

[sbk]

You don't want his brother misty Trust me!

As for middle aged western women giving you daggers, no idea. I don't presume to assume what someone else is thinking based on a look alone. Perhaps you aren't getting the daggers at all? its like the guy in the thread who assumed that because a thai man wasn't smiling at him he must have been giving him dirty looks.

[Sabum]

You know... one of the MAJOR factors that alot of you are not hitting on is age and appearance. These 2 factors will greatly change the way Thai society treats you. I'm always surprised that people from 2 totally different walks of life will disagree about the "Thai experience" without realising that their differences are what bring about the different experiences. Both should be willing to accept that the others reality is vaild based on thier situation. A young small woman is going to attract loads more trouble than and older or imposing looking woman. This should be obvious. It's the same for men, young guys have a totally different Thailand then the older guys. Big imposing guys will have a totally different experience to smaller guys. I'm trying to imagine any of the crap that has happened to me and picture what it would be like if it happened to my 7 foot tall muscle bound friend.... makes me snigger because it would NEVER happen.

[desi]

I'm always surprised that people from 2 totally different walks of life will disagree about the "Thai experience" without realising that their differences are what bring about the different experiences.

So very true. And it's equally true in the West but maybe we are more aware of what's going on in a truly foreign country? Or at least trying to work out what's going on.

Going further, how many Paris experiences are the same? New York? London? Different neighbourhoods in any city or town? The man is English and his experiences in Scotland and Wales are way different than mine...

[ernest1966]

Sorry to interject, (have yet to readpages 2-4) but I read the bit about the taxi drivers... well it's been a long time since I was in BKK, but I did ask the advice of my brother to translate something for me... "taxi metre please or i'll rip your thieving heart out"

now that does work... specially when you've sat down already next to the driver

Ernest