Artificial Irrigation In Issan

[riceman09]

I've had the fantastic opportunity to spend 2 weeks in Issan, on a rice farm( my girlfriend's parents) and I have to say that very rarely in my life I'd met oustanding people like I did in this part of thailand. I've noticed that the climatic conditions are very harsh on the soil and in many cases farmers don't get the chance to have more than 1 harvest per year because of this reason. I will get back there very soon and, as in my not near future I would like to establish myself there for good, I will appreciate anybody's feedback on artificial irrigation in order to maximize rice production(let's say 10 rai). How much would be an approximate investment in order to make this happen?

What would be the biggest challenge?How difficult is to find some rice land for sale?

Thank you all in advance,

[JUDAS]

I hope this thread gets some enlightening response regarding irrigation as the wife's family is in the same business in Issan with only one crop a year. Totally agree with you riceman09, the Issan people really are wonderful. I'm up there now enjoying life

[coventry]

If the Thais don't do it then do likewise. They've been doing it for thousands of years and if there was a way, they'd have found it. 'When in Rome.......... springs to mind.

[ozzydom]

If the Thais don't do it then do likewise. They've been doing it for thousands of years and if there was a way, they'd have found it. 'When in Rome.......... springs to mind.

Do what? bludge.

Our farm borders a Klong which runs all year,and yet only 3 out of about 50 farmers who also border this Klong bother to do a second crop of any description and most of them have the bum out of their jeans.

The theme around our area seems to be,never let work get in the way of endless days socialising over a bottle of Lao Khao.

[IsaanAussie]

I've had the fantastic opportunity to spend 2 weeks in Issan, on a rice farm( my girlfriend's parents) and I have to say that very rarely in my life I'd met oustanding people like I did in this part of thailand. I've noticed that the climatic conditions are very harsh on the soil and in many cases farmers don't get the chance to have more than 1 harvest per year because of this reason. I will get back there very soon and, as in my not near future I would like to establish myself there for good, I will appreciate anybody's feedback on artificial irrigation in order to maximize rice production(let's say 10 rai). How much would be an approximate investment in order to make this happen?

What would be the biggest challenge?How difficult is to find some rice land for sale?

Thank you all in advance,

Riceman09,

I am currently doing what you have described, that is, establishing a year round ground water based irrigation system in Sisaket. The issues I face are; firstly, a large seasonal change in the level of the ground water; and, a rapid percolation rate or the rate that water is absorbed. At present the water table is about 2.5 metres down, but by October it will be just below the surface in some spots.

In terms of cost and land availability, currently there are occassions when people will sell the land, usually when "hot for money" and parcels in my area are still at 20 to 30K per rai. We have purchased land in the past by letting it be known that we are interested and then waiting for the starting price to fall to something realistic. These are usually not well developed and involve clearing some trees and mounds, and repairing the paddy bunds at a minimum. Issues of land title type and other members of the family approving the sale are the biggest show stoppers.

Ozzydom makes a point worth listening to. Do not assume that now eager family members and neighbours will be available to work for you at all times. Study the people as well as the level of mechanisation available in the area and what crops are being grown. Also look around the area for market opportunities for your intended crops as well as suppliers, Isaan is not an easy place to buy "unusual" things.

Good luck with your planning and take your time in making decisions.

Isaanaussie

[pnustedt]

I propose to try a 2nd rice crop next year on one of our plots near Sisaket. It consists of about 14 rai next to a river. I will probably buy a diesel pump (or get electric laid on) for irrigation. We will buy 3-month germination seed and plant late January and harvest late April/May. Labour will not be a problem as I own all necessary equipment to do the job.

I reckon that I should get over Bt60K at the current rice price (Bt14.30/kilo) less costs of Bt12K (incl. fertiliser, seed but excl. capital cost of pump/hoses). If the price drops dramatically, as some forum members have forecast, I won't bother.

The local agricultural college are doing the same thing this year on about 4 or 5 rai which I am watching with great interest.

[Maizefarmer]

Its not viable - the margins on rice growing are not enough to cover the energy costs associated with irrigating in Thailand (which would be capital outlay on pump, and piping and then the ongoing cost of fuel - operative word been: "ongoing" , as in the dry season you will be having to pump large qauntites per rai per week - the cost of the diesel will strip away all potential profit - it will cost more to grow than it will sell for).

Yes - places like Vietnam and China have successfully introduced out of season irrigation techniques - but both those countries are able to yield double (and in some cases 3 to 4 x as much!) rice per unit area than Thailand - and thats without irrigation!

In Thailand, for all but a few folk, rice farming is a subsitance crop - and it will stay like that untill hybrids can be introduced on a commerical scale which give the yields that are realisable in China and Vietnam without having to irrigate - then, the costs of irrigation may well justify an out of season crop - but not with average yields as they are.

[pnustedt]

Its not viable - the margins on rice growing are not enough to cover the energy costs associated with irrigating in Thailand (which would be capital outlay on pump, and piping and then the ongoing cost of fuel - operative word been: "ongoing" , as in the dry season you will be having to pump large qauntites per rai per week - the cost of the diesel will strip away all potential profit - it will cost more to grow than it will sell for).

Yes - places like Vietnam and China have successfully introduced out of season irrigation techniques - but both those countries are able to yield double (and in some cases 3 to 4 x as much!) rice per unit area than Thailand - and thats without irrigation!

In Thailand, for all but a few folk, rice farming is a subsitance crop - and it will stay like that untill hybrids can be introduced on a commerical scale which give the yields that are realisable in China and Vietnam without having to irrigate - then, the costs of irrigation may well justify an out of season crop - but not with average yields as they are.

Rice farming is NOT a subsistance crop for most farmers - I harvest thousands of rai/year for hundreds of farmers - they all sell most of their crop, I cannot think of one who keeps it for subsistance. The price of rice is 50% up on previous years.

At today's rice and energy prices it is viable to irrigate for a 2nd crop if you are close to a water supply, you do not need huge quantities of water/rai, dampening the paddies once per week will do. There is also the added advantage that, with controlled watering, fertiliser will not be washed away. The main prob I predict would be that at harvest time (end April/May) the rains usually start.

I have been told many times that my ventures are not viable but they seem to keep me and my wife's family reasonably comfortably.

[IsaanAussie]

Its not viable - the margins on rice growing are not enough to cover the energy costs associated with irrigating in Thailand (which would be capital outlay on pump, and piping and then the ongoing cost of fuel - operative word been: "ongoing" , as in the dry season you will be having to pump large qauntites per rai per week - the cost of the diesel will strip away all potential profit - it will cost more to grow than it will sell for).

Yes - places like Vietnam and China have successfully introduced out of season irrigation techniques - but both those countries are able to yield double (and in some cases 3 to 4 x as much!) rice per unit area than Thailand - and thats without irrigation!

In Thailand, for all but a few folk, rice farming is a subsitance crop - and it will stay like that untill hybrids can be introduced on a commerical scale which give the yields that are realisable in China and Vietnam without having to irrigate - then, the costs of irrigation may well justify an out of season crop - but not with average yields as they are.

Rice farming is NOT a subsistance crop for most farmers - I harvest thousands of rai/year for hundreds of farmers - they all sell most of their crop, I cannot think of one who keeps it for subsistance. The price of rice is 50% up on previous years.

At today's rice and energy prices it is viable to irrigate for a 2nd crop if you are close to a water supply, you do not need huge quantities of water/rai, dampening the paddies once per week will do. There is also the added advantage that, with controlled watering, fertiliser will not be washed away. The main prob I predict would be that at harvest time (end April/May) the rains usually start.

I have been told many times that my ventures are not viable but they seem to keep me and my wife's family reasonably comfortably.

PN,

I agree with your thoughts and would add the choice of rice variety is a critical factor. I have lived in Suphanburi for four years and watched continuous cropping of rice 3 and 4 times per year on irrigated land. As MF points out, they all use large diesel powered pumps (usually truck engines) to flood irrigate and to drain the paddies and use large combines to harvest.

Soil differences could be a key factor in Sisaket for us both and I would be more than a little interested in the local Ag College trials.

Isaanaussie

[JUDAS]

Anyone actually say how much water is needed to grow one rai of rice here in Issan?

[ozzydom]

A lot of good reports from Madagaskar and the Phillipines re the technique of using bigger plant spacings and keeping the soil damp ,as opposed to flooding, Yields are reportedly improved.

A Phillipines biologist has developed an aerobic bacteria which sprayed on the last crops stubble and immediately turned over ,( fallowed) it is supposed to break down the stubble into plant useable nutrients in a very short time, enabling replanting in about 4 weeks.

I would imagine that the need to manually weed would offset water and other irrigation savings.

There was also a story on thai TV recently of a man in Isaan who paid 10k for municipal mains water to crop 15 rai, he reported a return nett of the water cost of 90k which sounds like he cropped a yield of about 6 tonne or about 400kg per rai.

[coventry]

If the Thais don't do it then do likewise. They've been doing it for thousands of years and if there was a way, they'd have found it. 'When in Rome.......... springs to mind.

Do what? bludge.

I thought it self explanitary. Maizefarmer picked up on it in post #7. what is a "bludge" by the way. Not a dig but a queery.

[IsaanAussie]

If the Thais don't do it then do likewise. They've been doing it for thousands of years and if there was a way, they'd have found it. 'When in Rome.......... springs to mind.

Do what? bludge.

I thought it self explanitary. Maizefarmer picked up on it in post #7. what is a "bludge" by the way. Not a dig but a queery.

A bludge or a bludger is being lazy or a lazy person who lives off the efforts of others.

Judas,

I doubt anyone in Isaan could tell you how many litres of rain are needed to grow a rai of rain feed rice as opposed to irrigated rice of central Thailand. No-one owns a rain gauge around me.

[JUDAS]

There was also a story on thai TV recently of a man in Isaan who paid 10k for municipal mains water to crop 15 rai, he reported a return nett of the water cost of 90k which sounds like he cropped a yield of about 6 tonne or about 400kg per rai.

So, I think municipal water is 7 Baht per unit ( 1000 litres ) 10k Baht buys around 1420 units. Lets call it 1500 units, this guy used 100 units of water per rai, 700 Baht/rai. Wonder how accurate the story was.

[C-sip-degree]

If the Thais don't do it then do likewise. They've been doing it for thousands of years and if there was a way, they'd have found it. 'When in Rome.......... springs to mind.

Do what? bludge.

Our farm borders a Klong which runs all year,and yet only 3 out of about 50 farmers who also border this Klong bother to do a second crop of any description and most of them have the bum out of their jeans.

The theme around our area seems to be,never let work get in the way of endless days socialising over a bottle of Lao Khao.

HA HA ha aaaarrrr Ozzydom,

To true,

And this coming month is the Ice breaker,

Give ...... him time and he will see the Jungle.

regrads

C-sip

[Maizefarmer]

There was also a story on thai TV recently of a man in Isaan who paid 10k for municipal mains water to crop 15 rai, he reported a return nett of the water cost of 90k which sounds like he cropped a yield of about 6 tonne or about 400kg per rai.

So, I think municipal water is 7 Baht per unit ( 1000 litres ) 10k Baht buys around 1420 units. Lets call it 1500 units, this guy used 100 units of water per rai, 700 Baht/rai. Wonder how accurate the story was.

Thank you - it's not accurate.

I have yet to see a rice farm that can sustain 3 - let alone 4 crops a year - in Isaan, cover the costs of water and fuel - and come out tops. It was certainly possible while Inida banned exports (the price of rice rocketed), but its down now and carrying every indication that it will go down further - indeed, there are enormous problems ahead for Thailands rice industry: the rice is expected to plummet this year - government has already started imposed 500ton min requirements for export licenses - which is laughable for most traders unless its top grade Jasmin or similar.

There are indeed examples of farms and areas in Thailand that can sustain 2 crops per year profitably - but they are not having to rely on 100% irrigation for the 2nd crop. In Isaan it would be very much the exception to be able to harvest more than once, and neigh on impossible to do so 3 times per year - without having to rely on irrigation to some extent for the 2nd harvest (depending on rain) - and 100% for the 3rd harvest.

Yes - I too can cite examples of rice farms that irrigate - indeed, almost all of them have to to some degree, and irrigate every year, but having to rely totaly on irrigation in times other than those during which India banned exports and prices went up (as would be the case any time out of the rainy season in Isaan) would not be viable to do with gate prices as they usualy are.

What makes it real bad in Isaan is that the canal system runs at between 1,5 - 2m below the paddies in rice seaon. In the central plains that is not the case - the canals run at around 1m and many have water in them during the dry seaon. In Isaan they are mostly bone dry. The relivance of this: it costs a lot more for rice farmers to lift water from the canals in Isaan than it does elsewhere in Thailand

Technically my choice of word "subsitance" was not correct - indeed, Thai farmers sell what they grow, which of course means they are not subsitence farmers. In reality however, most Isaan rice farmers live off money borrowed against the next seasons crop - before it is even planted.

Last year's rice prices were very much an exception - and due to India's ban on exports (which it has said will not be repeated this year).

I would advise the OP as a starting point to go round to every rice grower in his area - say all those on the same level as him for a few km's in each direction, and ask them where the cut off point is in terms of having to irrigate their crop - and still come out tops. My guess is some will be able to do so to varying degrees (a guess on my part would be having to pump somewhere between 30% - 50% of the required crop water needed), and as a seperate question - can they do so in dry season (which would mean 100% of the water would have to be pumped - and would have to be done so through from start to finish).

[pnustedt]

Soil differences could be a key factor in Sisaket for us both and I would be more than a little interested in the local Ag College trials.

Isaanaussie

If you drive on the entrance road to the Queen's park you can see the Ag College field near the bottom on the right. The rice is about 12in. high at moment.

[IsaanAussie]

PN,

Thanks for the info, I'll do a drive by next time I'm in town.

MF,

You have summed up the plight of many Isaan farmers and the water situation well. But there are factors to consider in the total COP that I invite your comment on, such as the costs of harvesting and returns on investment for people such as PN who has two expensive combines idle for most of the year.

The more industrious of my neighbours are growing off season crops on as much of their land as they can pump water to. Their limitations for chilli or for 2nd crop rice are the expenses of constructing storage ponds and purchasing large pumps, most use small electric units.

In my case I will be growing feed crops for my pigs as a principle concern where the COP is less than that of commercial feeds. The volatility of market crop prices will always be a problem for farmers in Thailand and most other countries, feast or famine.

Isaanaussie

[Maizefarmer]

PN,

Thanks for the info, I'll do a drive by next time I'm in town.

MF,

You have summed up the plight of many Isaan farmers and the water situation well. But there are factors to consider in the total COP that I invite your comment on, such as the costs of harvesting and returns on investment for people such as PN who has two expensive combines idle for most of the year.

My knowledge of rice and growing the stuff is absolute min at best - I have never grown the stuff: I looked at it in the 80's but the income I saw farmers earning then was enough to scare me right off - and it hasn't improved much since! So I am not the best person to comment on rice - but after 20 years in the ag business and a degree in the subject, I know enough to recognise the inputs and costs associated with farming in general in this country.

Yes - harvesters are big outlay, and sitting by idly they earn no money. I have 2 forage harvesters (one self propelled and the other front 3point mounted) - same principal as a rice harevster, accept they are for corn and grass. Never ending ongoing expense - both fuel and maintenance wise.

The more industrious of my neighbours are growing off season crops on as much of their land as they can pump water to. Their limitations for chilli or for 2nd crop rice are the expenses of constructing storage ponds and purchasing large pumps, most use small electric units.

2nd crops which can grow on paddy fields are the way to go in the dry season - and often earn as much if not more than the rice crop does. Your comments regards capital outlay for hardware are important: scale is a big issue, and understanding the relationship between size/capital outlay/yield and and extra income, are big issues, which many farmers dont understand. I understand the subject very well in respect of beef and diary, and the crop/feed production costs associating with supporting cattle - but in respect of veggies and other anaimal types - nope, its not my skill. There is somethign else to keep inmind here: animal derived protein is inefficient i.e. it costs more to live off food derived from animals than it does from plants - meaning: as a rule, the profits from animals per unit area, are genrally not as great as the profits that can be derived from plant food produced on the same area. Another way of putting it: farmers tend to make more money selling the veggies they grow on say i rai of land than they would earn from an animal feed with the food that can be produced on that same 1 rai of land.

In my case I will be growing feed crops for my pigs as a principle concern where the COP is less than that of commercial feeds. The volatility of market crop prices will always be a problem for farmers in Thailand and most other countries, feast or famine.

mmmmm ...... trying to beat commercial feed costs!!!

Well, I know its possible in respect of cattle - because I do it myself - I irrigate livestock forage crops in the dry season, not in kilo litre quantities, but in mega litre quantities on a daily basis - so I know it can indeed be undertaken successfully.

But for pigs - I'm sorry, I don't have the knowldege on raising pigs to be able to comment accurately on what their nutritional feed requirments are versus what it will cost to produce against what an equivilant commericaly produced feed will cost to purchase. There are guys on the forum who have aload of experiance keeping pigs - they could step forward and comment.

Look, you can support 2 cows profitably on 1 rai of land year round - with careful management. How many pigs can be supported per rai? - I haven't a clue quite frankly.

But I will say this: it took me a good few years to get it things sorted out i.e. soil quality, crop choice, fertilser choice, irrigation schedule - these all need carefull choice and complete understanding of to get things working right, and to get a yield that justifies the outlay. It is not easy to do, and I cannot reccomend enough that you devour as much tech and academic info as you can get hold of to get a complete understanding of the subject.

Isaanaussie

[ozzydom]

To elaborate on my earlier post re 2nd. crops.About 7 years ago the Government bought in excavators and rebuilt the levee banks on the klong that runs through my area .

A dam and spillway was built about 500m downstream from our farm, and to back the river up you just slide in as many boards as you need to get the water level to the height you require.

As part of the reconstruction each property had a 6 inch pipe supplied through the levee wall, these pipes are about + or - 2 foot of normal dry season levels , so some low lying paddies just have to open the flapper door to flood and others need to back the water level up to get the same effect.

A couple of the larger farmers whose holdings stretch quite a way (and more elevated ) from the klong have small storage ponds fed by their pipe but are still able to get their irrigation in per iron buffalo and longtail pump which is about as cheap in terms of purchase price ,efficiency and running costs as you can probably get .

The upshot of the system was that paddy land hereabouts went to 100k minimum per rai and yet only a small percentage make full use of the facility by doing a second crop.

The normal course of events around here is to trample the damp soil down during cutting then walk away and leave the soil to sour from November till April ,as soon as enough rain falls to soften the soil they disc and scarify and usually have the new crop in within days of first discing.

Maybe what I learnt at Ag School regarding the benefits of turning the sod and leaving in fallow when not in use is old hat these days or is it that they are just to lazy.

Older members may recall my reports of the last time we cropped rice before converting to fish. Using best farm practice (as I understand it ) we had a yield of just over 1000kg per rai . But the locals who averaged 280 - 300 kg per rai would not have it that a westerner could do it better . The usual reason given was that I had got hold of some super dooper seed.,

[Gary A]

In my area of Loei, one rice crop is just normal. In the few areas that have water, soybeans are a second crop. I don't know of anyone who pumps water from a bore hole even for the beans.

[teletiger]

Issan really seems to have it's own 'micro-climates". Here in Khao Yai (Issan), there are 2 corn harvests. (no irrigation).

We plant by mid March (rains start mid/late Feb.) Second planting by mid August. Rains cease early Nov onwards. Been here 6 years now. Every year more or less the same. (2005 was very dry, late planters struggled) We dug (in Feb 2005) a 400sq mt pond, 5 metres deep. 10 days later it was full.

Conspiricy Theory.....the more ground water thats captured in Issan.....The faster Bangkok sinks!! Naa

Tell me though, I read about "the arid plateau of Issan", Yet rainfall in Issan is plenty enough to support 2/3 crops annually. It's just not captured. Am I missing something? The Government will even subsidize (or did 3 years ago) digging a pond on your land.

"Bum out of their jeans". Love it. Oz Has a knack of capturing reality in a phrase. All "cockneys" at heart mind.

Regards

[Maizefarmer]

Soybeans are an excellent 2nd crop for rice paddies - nearly all the soy bean that I am using curently in the mill is from rice farmers in Loei who grow it as an out of season crop on paddy land - and its a good quality product they are producing.

The paddy soil chemistry up here suits soybean very well - an at the end of it all, the plant is ploughed back into the soil.

It's also a very good green/fresh forage for piglets when mixed with sugar cane (another popular Isaan crop) beleive it or not - I know more than one small scale pig farmer who uses it as a primary feed for piglets. But dont ask me to comment on the economics of it versus other green forage options (for pigs) - I haven't a clue what they are. Obviosuly the plant is going to have to be in "milk stage", and the question then of course is: what percentage of the bean yield is been included in the green forage feed.

Secondly, it also ensiles very well - meaning: it is easy to ensile, its more forgiving when it comes to moisture content and retention of nutrient content than many other forage crops I can think of. It can be ensiled with the pods, so long as their are not too many, or they are not to mature, and it can be ensiled without the pods - its a very flexible forage crop to work with.

So - thats one crop I know is vaible as a 2nd/out of season paddy crop (at least in Loei) - both as a crop for the bean and/or as a crop for animal feed - fresh, or ensiled, and, with or without the bean - and viable means: the return in all 5 potential ways of using it justifies the expense of irrigation.

[teletiger]

Soya bean hay and sugar cane tops can be fed to pigs, but the raw soya bean contains natural inhibitors that block their nutritional conversion.

Piglets need 20% protein....(1.25%lycene)....declining to 14%... (.7% lycene)... to attain their slaughter weight of 100+kilos at 6 months. Not attainable through green feed. Of course, this is an industry standard. Why?....because industry says so.

If anyone produces pigs to 100 kilos at one year, on green feed, I'd like to try a couple.

Regards.

[IsaanAussie]

Hi Guys,

The last few posts contain some very valuable comments based on 1st hand experience and I thank you all for sharing those. Perhaps I should clarify my position a little. I do not intend to become feed self sufficient, I simply do not have the land required nor the capital to purchase milling equipment. In terms of pig production my target is 300 marketable pigs per year with an average of 90 pigs to be housed based on a 16 sow breeding herd. So the operation is only small, no wild "CPF" dreams here. But yes, the 100kg at 6 months target are very much a part of that.

What I am trying to achieve is flexibility and as suggested in previous posts, in Isaan that depends on capturing water and improving the soil. After digging the pond I will be taking a step backwards with the already poor soil conditions as I need to raise the land level to avoid flooding. So it will be green manure crops and hard slog for me.

Issanauusie

[ericthai]

Hey Guys,

Im in Surin, we do one rice crop a year and them in between we grow Kenaf. Kenaf reaches maturity in about 5 months, just enough time. Actually my company buys Kenaf that is why we grow it. I tired some new fertilizer found that is organic, this stuff is great, about half the cost of UREA and yeilds were unbelievable. I cant wait for the next rice season to check the results again. On the rice I got almost double the yields. I did 10 rai with UREA and 10 ria with this stuff. I gave some to my wifes uncle and he used it on it chili, he got 4 times the yield he usually gets. I still cant believe it. I just submitted some to a university with a professor and he is going to do certified results for me.

Anyway, if you want to do another crop between rice you can grow Kenaf, it requires little water and is more or less a weed. You can contact me and we will enter into a contract to purchase what you grow. We will supply the seeds and then deduct the cost of the seeds when we pay you for the crop. Allot of farmers here are lazy and only want to do enough rice to live on, so only one crop. We will work them too, we will use their land plant and harvest and pay 300 baht per ton harvested, they don't have to do anything.

Anyone intrested please message me.

thanks,

Eric

[JungleBiker]

Hi Eric,

So are you selling the fertilizer too? Just wondering why you didn't mention the name, etc.

JB.

[teletiger]

Exactly how much are the seeds?

Are they the $2.80 per lb seeds........ http://www.kenafseed.com/welcome.htm

or are they the $30 per lb from this bunch of crooks..... http://www.satglobal.com/kenaf_contr.htm

I first researched kenaf about 4 years ago...and really felt as though I was surfing in shark infested waters. I researched it again a few weeks ago, concerning charcoal material. Nothing much had changed.

Regards.

[Maizefarmer]

EricThai - just what do you guys do with this crop?

[IsaanAussie]

MF,

I contacted Ericthai yesterday and their kenaf core materials are being used in the production of animal bedding and they are undersupplied. I doubt you would get rich growing this stuff but the folage silage opportunities for cattle feed and bast fibre opportunities in a range of manufactured products impress me. Definitely worth a look at this for anyone who has underutilised acreage between rice crops. They are currently more for someone to just peel the bark off this stuff than many forum members got per Kilo for cassava.

Good luck to you Ericthai and to your company.

Isaanaussie

Edited March 24, 2009 by IsaanAussie