Southern Thai

[meadish_sweetball]

mueng - you มึง

That is Central Thai (unless a different tone is applied in Southern Thai, but as long as we dont use Thai script, tone markers, or post recorded sound files, nobody can tell).

It's the informal term which was used for 'you' in the past, that has now become rude in all circumstances, provided you are not talking to a *close* friend of your own age.

In situations where Thai people refer to you as '[MS]mueng', they will also refer to themselves as '[ML]goo' กู. You are unlikely to be close enough to a Thai friend to be called mueng as a farang, it is used reserved for people one went to school with or got to know at a young age. Except, of course, if a person is pissed off and deliberately rude.

[katana]

mueng - you มึง...It's the informal term which was used for 'you' in the past, that has now become rude in all circumstances...

I was watching the Thai film Bang Rajan recently (set a few hundred years ago, around the time of the fall of Ayuthaya I think), and noticed that as well. MEUNG was used in place of KHUN throughout by the characters.

[sbk]

glad to see the southern thread has been revived

OK, major tip for all you islanders. Native Samuians, Phanganers and Taoites don't say "ki baht" or "towrai" for how much but rather "kay baht" with a bit of an "uh" on the end . Say that with a proper Southern accent and you will pay the local price for the taxi

Meadish dropped in on his holiday last year and he and his wife got to listen to a bit of my conversation with a local neighboring fisherman. Not sure how much he got.

Fishing terms:

Tork bet : fishing with a hook

Tord haae: cast net fishing

bait: yuea

Blah in-see: mackerel

Blah Plam: trevally

Blah pbong: mullet

rueua hang: long tailed boat

wing reua: run a boat

and of course, the obvious: reua supeed

[meadish_sweetball]

Meadish dropped in on his holiday last year and he and his wife got to listen to a bit of my conversation with a local neighboring fisherman. Not sure how much he got.

A good time it was too - thanks for your hospitality!

As for the conversation, I understood 10% at best. Are you sure you hadnt instructed him to come around and sound unintelligible just to confuse us?

[sbk]

Meadish dropped in on his holiday last year and he and his wife got to listen to a bit of my conversation with a local neighboring fisherman. Not sure how much he got.

A good time it was too - thanks for your hospitality!

As for the conversation, I understood 10% at best. Are you sure you hadnt instructed him to come around and sound unintelligible just to confuse us?

Just good timing

[g00dgirl]

Hm, nobody knows about the "ert" ?

[everydaysthesame]

been getting some south thai lessons from a girl from nakon si thammarat today so here's what i learnt:

mae tao grandma แม่เฒ่า

por tao grandad พ่อเฒ่า

เดียวต้า dieo tar - wait

ยกขึ้น yok kun. wake up!!

ล้างถ้วย - larng twoy - clean dishes.

รถเครื้อง rot kreuang. motorbike

รถถีบ rot teep bicycle.

ต้นพร้าว ton prao - coconut tree

ส้มมว่ง - som-mwang (mamuang)

เกือก geurak (rong tao, shoe)

ตีน teen. foot.

หัวแม่ตีน - hua mae teen (big toe)

ตีหม้อ tee mor - boom boom

หิดเดียว - hit dieo - nit noy

แต่ว้า่่่่่่ - tae war (but)

เอาเหลย - ao loey. one more.

ไปเล pai lay. go the beach.

ขิ้ชิด kee chit - same as kee niao/stingy.

[sbk]

At least where I live, bicycle sounds more like "tape" than "teep" and stingy more like "git" than "chit"

Funny, I never knew these were Southern, just assumed everyone used them

[5tash]

check this link out for a few more words in the southern language.

[sbk]

Huh. มะม่วง ma muang (mango) and จิ้งจก jing-jok (gecko) are Southern Thai?

[5tash]

Huh. มะม่วง ma muang (mango) and จิ้งจก jing-jok (gecko) are Southern Thai?

not sure if you are refering to my link or not (can't see มะม่วง on the link) but on the link the words on the left are central thai and on the right southern thai. therefore in the southern thai dialect จิ้งจก is ตีนจก.

มะม่วง - central thai, ส้มม่วง - southern thai.

[meadish_sweetball]

รถเครื้อง rot kreuang. motorbike

รถถีบ rot teep bicycle.

I was surprised to see these two, since both are used in Northern Thai. Perhaps they are just older originally Thai words? Any Isaanites that recognize them as Isaan dialect?

[DavidHouston]

been getting some south thai lessons from a girl from nakon si thammarat today so here's what i learnt:

mae tao grandma แม่เฒ่า

por tao grandad พ่อเฒ่า

เดียวต้า dieo tar - wait

ยกขึ้น yok kun. wake up!!

ล้างถ้วย - larng twoy - clean dishes.

รถเครื้อง rot kreuang. motorbike

รถถีบ rot teep bicycle.

ต้นพร้าว ton prao - coconut tree

ส้มมว่ง - som-mwang (mamuang)

เกือก geurak (rong tao, shoe)

ตีน teen. foot.

หัวแม่ตีน - hua mae teen (big toe)

ตีหม้อ tee mor - boom boom

หิดเดียว - hit dieo - nit noy

แต่ว้า่่่่่่ - tae war (but)

เอาเหลย - ao loey. one more.

ไปเล pai lay. go the beach.

ขิ้ชิด kee chit - same as kee niao/stingy.

Do the spellings you indicate reflect the pronunciation and tones in Southern Thai or is this the Central dialect spelling? Might Southers pronounce these words in a manner different than the way they are spelled?

[sbk]

Huh. มะม่วง ma muang (mango) and จิ้งจก jing-jok (gecko) are Southern Thai?

not sure if you are refering to my link or not (can't see มะม่วง on the link) but on the link the words on the left are central thai and on the right southern thai. therefore in the southern thai dialect จิ้งจก is ตีนจก.

มะม่วง - central thai, ส้มม่วง - southern thai.

My bad, you are right, I was assuming the left hand side of the column was Southern.

And like I said, where I live bicycle is most definitely pronounced with a more of a sound like "tape" with a long a in the middle.

[everydaysthesame]

Do the spellings you indicate reflect the pronunciation and tones in Southern Thai or is this the Central dialect spelling? Might Southers pronounce these words in a manner different than the way they are spelled?

Not sure to be honest, but I assume that as most of the words are southern dialect that the spelling indicates the tone to use. Could be wrong though. However I do know that sometimes when southerners speak central thai words they are sometimes spoken with different tones to that indiacted by the spellng.

So to sum up - I havent a clue!

[DavidHouston]

My personal experience with Southern Thai is limited primarily to four of the Andaman provinces: Phuket, Phangnga, Krabi, and Trang. Several points from my own observations:

1. The sub-dialects differ quite dramatically by province or area. Even Phuket and Phangnga languages which are very close do contain some differences. For example, for "ไม่เป็นไร", Phangnga folks say, "ไม้เผรอ" while Phuket folks tend to say, "ไม้เผรอย" (both written to emphasis the local sounds). I see the suggestion below for "หิดเดียว - hit dieo - nit noy"; I have heard "ฮิด ฮ้วย - hit[H] hui [H]" used in the same context.

2. My wife's Phuket dialect has not changed one iota in 40 years of marriage; when we are there and she is with her friends and old classmates, her pronunciation is as if she had never left. However, when she talks to someone from elsewhere in the South, other than Phangnga, for example, her pronunciation becomes somewhat modified. We have a good friend from Nakorn Sri Thammarat and when she speaks with him she is speaking almost a different sub-dialect. I also have occasion to listen to people from the three Southern provinces. Their native Thai dialect, while recognizable as Southern, is dramatically different than my wife's for example.

3. Seems to me that ther is almost a Grimm's law allowing conversion of much of the Bangkok dialect to Southern Thai. For example almost all falling tones in Central Thai, result in a rising tone in Southern Thai and final "ก" become dropped. "มาก" become "หมะ" - the dead ending is retained but the glottal stop is dropped; the vowel is shortened and the tone is rising. The shortening of endings and the dropping of final closing consonants seem to be a feature of Southern dialect.

4. My wife's Phuket dialect is liberally mixed with a lot of Hokkien Chinese terms. I believe that the inclusion of Hokkien Chinese, as opposed to the prevalent Tae Chiew Chinese of many Bangkok Thais, is a source of much pride for the locals.

5. I have never seen Southern Thai written to reflect the actual sounds used. Perhaps this is my lack of effective breadth in reading. However, if a Southern Thai were to read a newspaper passage written in Bangkok to a local countryman, the sound and tones would come out Southern.

6. I suspect that each of us may have a different view of Southern Thai because of our diverse geographic locations, rather than because of our differing abilities to hear the sounds.

7. With the wide-spread infusion of national education all over the country, one very rarely hears dialect spoken to foreigners. I believe it is a matter of local price for folks to be able to turn on and off their local patois as the situation demands.

I would certainly like to hear about your diverse experiences as well in this subject matter.

[sbk]

Interesting ideas David, yes I am aware that the sounds and words change across the South. My husband can spot immediately what Southern province someone is from, can tell the difference between a Nakhon native and a Koh Phangan native!

There are also quite a few words and phrases that are, I am told, solely used on Samui, Phangan and Tao.

But, I have to add in rebuttal to #7 that most of the older people on this island do not speak Bangkok Thai and could not even if they wanted to. Perhaps those aged 50 years and up?

[DavidHouston]

Note how many of us continue to be fascinated by the great diversity of dialects in Thailand. The development and persistence of local languages, dialects, inflections, and pronunciations even in this day of standardized education and disseminated and standardized media is a source of wonderment and enjoyment.

I wonder if the development of local dialects and langauge sub-groups is similar to biological diversity, or as Charles Darwin observed,

"There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved."

Thank you all for this discussion.

[sbk]

Well, just had a chat with the guy who does my massage from time to time. He is a local man, married to my husband's cousin.

Anyway, I was asking him how people always know I speak Southern Thai as soon as I open my mouth. The other day we were at the amphur and the man there asked me how long we had been married, I answered (in Thai obviously) 19. He said, "Oh, she speaks Southern Thai". All I said was 19!

So, the cousin-in-law explained it to me. He said that where Thai Bkk will have a rising or high tone, the same word will have a falling or low tone in the South. Also, he said that Southerners don't like to use the vowel sara oo - ู ; but will substitue it for the vowel sara oh โ- .

The other obvious one is the Southern ability to pronounce the r sound in ror reua ร.

So, even the numbers sound slightly different and make a speaker of Southern Thai immediately distinguishable.

[DavidHouston]

I agree with sbk and wish to elaborate a bit. I have been married to the same Southern Thai woman for 40 years now. She is from Phuket where the brand of Southern Thai is fairly radical, being influenced to a large extent by Hokkien Chinese. My wife can usually identify where a particular speaker comes from, even from the radio call-in program or from a debate in the parliament and even when they are clearly trying to speak Central dialect. She can identify the speaker by province because of the particular difference is speech patterns by Thais from various areas around the South. Southern Thailand is geographically very diverse even though its population is not very great due to the extreme length and narrowness of the Malay peninsula of which it is a part and the fact that until recently, intra-regional communications and transportation modes were very poor.

My wife tends to moderate her speech patterns when she speaks to one of her school chums, on the one hand, and when speaking to a close from from Nakornsrithammarat or Suratthanni, on the other hand because the languages relationships are different.

Sbk and I unusually refer to the Southern Thai tones in reference to the Central tones, rising and falling tones as she notes. However, it is important to say that while the general tonal patterns of the five tones may be similar, they are very different tones from those of the Central dialect. I am not skilled enough in linguistics to even attempt to describe these tonal differences other than to say that the differences are fairly dramatic. That Sbk has managed to integrate these tones into her speech patterns is a real tribute to both her hearing and her dedication to the language. I commend her.

Edited April 14, 2008 by DavidHouston

[mangkorn]

Facsinating discussion guys, because I am limited to Central Thai and Isan/Lao, thus far. I've picked up a couple of things from the South, but do not have nearly enough experience there yet. I did notice, as David says, that people there seemed to speak pretty much Central Thai when directing themselves to me (those other few things I noticed were from overhearing). On sbk's island, well, she must surely know about the folks there.

But this is not surprising, really. A keen ear can identify where a Spanish speaker is from almost immediately - running the gamut from Mexico to the Caribbean and all the way down to Argentina (not to mention the Spaniards, who are hopelessly dead giveaways).

The differences even between close neighbours, (e.g., Guatemala and El Salvador), are so markedly pronounced as to be mind-boggling, even for us sometimes. It's the same language, ostensibly, but some people need a translator. And sometimes one can gravely insult another without even realizing it! The differences in Thai dialects seem no different, to me anyway.

Ah, variety is the spice of life, as they say...

Cheers, and thanks for the southern lessons.

[sbk]

Well, thank you David, but it really has just been picked up as I go along. I am still learning. I guess I just have a good ear

As for your wife, my husband is the same, he can spot a Nakhonite from a Phuketian immediately. When I go to Samui the locals there know immediately that I learned to speak Thai on the islands. They can't tell if its Samui or Phangan or Tao, but it is definitely one of the three.

As for speaking Central, well mangkorn, depends on the person. Some people (my MIL for instance) can't speak Central at all. My FIL on the other hand, has a bit here and there and can just manage it. Others, like my husband, dislike speaking it, but will do so if pressed. They do understand it, most can speak it, as they all watch TV and learned it in school (except older people like my inlaws) but for daily conversation amongst locals, Southern is used exclusively and much preferred.

[everydaysthesame]

this usually gets a laugh off southern thais who call me farang..

ไม่เป็นฝรั่งเป็นชมพู่

mai pen farang pen chompoo.

(guavas are called chompoo in the south)

[sabaijai]

2. My wife's Phuket dialect has not changed one iota in 40 years of marriage; when we are there and she is with her friends and old classmates, her pronunciation is as if she had never left. However, when she talks to someone from elsewhere in the South, other than Phangnga, for example, her pronunciation becomes somewhat modified. We have a good friend from Nakorn Sri Thammarat and when she speaks with him she is speaking almost a different sub-dialect. I also have occasion to listen to people from the three Southern provinces. Their native Thai dialect, while recognizable as Southern, is dramatically different than my wife's for example.

They probably are speaking a different dialect. Southerners from different parts of southern Thailand use a sort of 'pan-Southern' dialect that mixes a bit of Bangkok Thai with bits of southern Thai that are common to all the southern dialects. The same thing happens with northern Thais and northeastern Thais. Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai dialects differ significantly but when they speak amongst themselves, they employ a third, 'pan-Northern' dialect. Here in larger northern cities (Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai for example) it's also the language they use on northern Thai radio stations.

I've noticed the same thing in Isan, where there's a different dialect of Isan Thai is each of the 19 provinces, but a sort of pan-Isan language heard on some radio stations.

I expect you may hear something similar from Phuket, Surat or Nakhon radio stations that use southern dialects?

3. Seems to me that ther is almost a Grimm's law allowing conversion of much of the Bangkok dialect to Southern Thai. For example almost all falling tones in Central Thai, result in a rising tone in Southern Thai and final "ก" become dropped. "มาก" become "หมะ" - the dead ending is retained but the glottal stop is dropped; the vowel is shortened and the tone is rising. The shortening of endings and the dropping of final closing consonants seem to be a feature of Southern dialect.

You also find systematic tone conversions for all the Isan and Muang (northern Thai) dialects, that is, as variations from Bangkok Thai tones. Once you've mastered those then it's just a matter of memorising regional vocabulary and expressions.

The main problem is the lack of written languages for Isan and southern Thai dialects. Muang (northern Thai) does have its own script, although most northerners don't bother to learn how to read it very well if at all. But at least those who are serious about their linguistic heritage have the option of studying Muang script (many do, at least here in Chiang Mai).

[khaojao]

just wanna thank those who contributed to this thread. i used a few tai words (like mai preu, haa mai pob...) and it helped break ice and open conversations with some otherwise rather shy southerners, as they are tickled that non-thais can speak a smattering of their dialect. hope this thread can be kept alive with more contributions

[jsw47]

Hello all... Can anyone in this forum recommend a professional Thai language tutor in one of the three provinces of the deep south (Yala, Pattani, or Narathiwat)? I've studied about 1.5 years of standard Thai at my university in the US, but am hoping to improve my speaking/listening through some language immersion in the southern dialect before I begin my research in Yala.