Engagement Only

[CharlieB]

I have met a young, attractive, university educated, traditional thai girl, visiting family in the UK. Really can't fault the girl at all. Love being with her. We wish to get to know each other better, but she returns to Thailand shortly. After discussion. it has been suggested that the best way may be to get engaged in thailand with ceremony, but without marriage. Then she can live with me (Separate bedrooms) and study for a time, in the UK, during which time we can see how relationships develop. Dowrys in the family, I know to have been in the region of 1 million Baht and it has been suggested that her's should be more. I do not have the lower figure, but it is certainly more obtainable than anything higher. Can anybody please advise me as to what to possibly expect? Is dowry payable on engagement only, as opposed to marriage? What is the family likely to expect from me?

Theres one born every minute...

Run now my friend...you are being set up....Sin Sot is paid on marriage not engagement...

I may understand everything except the separate bedroom bet, I vote SCAME

It's so she can sleep safely from him and protect her virtue. Besides which, her brother is moving in with them to ensure she remains a virgin and needs some space for his things too.

[Soutpeel]

Well going to put a TROLL on this one....the OP has disappeared without commenting further....

Unless of course he has gone to try and get his money back...

[IanForbes]

Well going to put a TROLL on this one....the OP has disappeared without commenting further....

Unless of course he has gone to try and get his money back...

We scared him off with truthful replies. NOBODY needs to provide a dowry BEFORE a marriage. Doing so in today's society is just plain stupid. No matter how lovely the prospective bride might be, the fact remains that it is too great a risk.

[MJP]

Well going to put a TROLL on this one....the OP has disappeared without commenting further....

Unless of course he has gone to try and get his money back...

We scared him off with truthful replies. NOBODY needs to provide a dowry BEFORE a marriage. Doing so in today's society is just plain stupid. No matter how lovely the prospective bride might be, the fact remains that it is too great a risk.

Nobody need provide a dowry.

Nobody need get married.

[Livinginexile]

Wow how lucky are you?!!

And only 1 million!

If I was you I would pay as quickly as possible in case someone beats you to it!

[Norrad]

OK, this is from my experience. I had to get engaged to my wife before she was allowed to move in with me. We had an engagement party and I presented her with gold (2 Baht), a diamond ring and a diamond bracelet. We had to choose a date for the actual wedding so that her parents could organise things. I had to put 20K into a fixed deposit account in my wifes name and we could use the bank book and a combination of cash and gold on our wedding day.

My initial sinsod amount was quoted at 2 million baht, but after going through the facts with her family I managed to get it down to 100K. My wife was unmarried and a virgin at the time. I managed to get the drastic reduction in Sinsod because she was still in university and I promised her family that I would take care of all her expenses from when we got engaged until she finishes her Masters or even PHD if she wants to do it.

[Beardog]

What paying before you get to dip? sounds like yet another fishing expedition.I wonder how many others she has trolled before you. I would think if you are getting the informal wedding that means you will be sleeping with each other or have already. Most of the old ways have been chipped away & are a little more modern than living in Issan Or Buriram 50 years ago! Nowadays you got to watch out for the coy internet players.......You know the ones I go to university....Of how to fanagle money out of the poor farangs pocket. They use the education well-as it serves them.

I am not at all saying all girls are up to know good, but I would give this one a no go. To many out there, that you can at least sample the wares & see if you even can get along with to go down a very iffy path. Do yourself a favor- Lots of fish in the sea & way more are females in Thailand. Optimize your chances & keep looking. Once one has assigned herself to you, it's yours forever pretty much. OK if you like wearing a sweater you can't take off!

The right one is just around the corner. And she most likely won't be calling you a handsum man or darling(Darkling-a monkeys ass)

Norrad- nothing to do with your post at all I just spotted your post as my post came in. No offence at all intended- Glad you worked the sinsod down to 100,000 mine was 120,000baht as a loan & I figured that was the right ammount instead of trying to get the loan back later. 2 million Ouch!!!

Edited June 4, 2009 by Beardog

[nibaru]

Just checked to see if I had a reply to my post. Wow!! few more than one!!! No, I've not disappeared, body clock just a bit out, hence my reply at 1am! Well, I'm really going to show my ignorance here. I presumue OP is original poster. Maybe somebody can enlighten me as to what a troll is? I know the guy who paid the million baht and he told me he paid it gladly. In fact he ended up paying more. Seemed a lot to me and wouldn't have believed it if he hadn't told me. I'm still trying to understand it, hence the post! Maybe the separate beds should have been in inverted commas? (For the sake of the family) I have no intention of having a failed marriage and my guard will be up. The solution suggested to me of engagement seemed ok. I would rather be forearmed with what could reasonably be expected from me, again hence asking opinion here. So, traditional thai engagement, involves buying gold only? Oh and 2 million baht to 20k seems quite a differrence! I'm not dashing into this. Month or two to think about it first. Appreciate the comments. Thanks

[BigSnake]

Either WAY you are going to PAY.

[Mosha]

You might try asking what will happen to the Sinsot. A good family will actually either gift you the money back in some form.

[Soutpeel]

Just checked to see if I had a reply to my post. Wow!! few more than one!!! No, I've not disappeared, body clock just a bit out, hence my reply at 1am! Well, I'm really going to show my ignorance here. I presumue OP is original poster. Maybe somebody can enlighten me as to what a troll is? I know the guy who paid the million baht and he told me he paid it gladly. In fact he ended up paying more. Seemed a lot to me and wouldn't have believed it if he hadn't told me. I'm still trying to understand it, hence the post! Maybe the separate beds should have been in inverted commas? (For the sake of the family) I have no intention of having a failed marriage and my guard will be up. The solution suggested to me of engagement seemed ok. I would rather be forearmed with what could reasonably be expected from me, again hence asking opinion here. So, traditional thai engagement, involves buying gold only? Oh and 2 million baht to 20k seems quite a differrence! I'm not dashing into this. Month or two to think about it first. Appreciate the comments. Thanks

naive....run rabbit...run....listen to what people are saying you are being set up for a scam...take heed, you are not even engaged yet, dont really know this girl and there is talk of money being paid over already...she is in this for 1. money for the family 2. she is after a passport..and your not going to be allowed to play hide the sausage either

[MiG16]

seeing that the OP has replied, I will give this thread the benefit of the doubt.

will even chip in my views!

it is not unheard of for thai families to suggest an engagement. (remember that in old days once you get engaged, the prospect of marriage not going ahead is rare). it is for the benefit of society, that the daughter will be spending so much time with a guy, and in this case overseas, where everyone will assume she will be sleeping with her guy. (an otherwise unacceptable behavior - at least on the face value. lets not discuss what happens in practice).

however, now the family can openly tell neighbours she is there with fiance.

on the dowry aspect, I cant speak much. However, if they are genuine, they should be satisfied with a public ceremony (invite some guests, rather than internal family only). i dont think you should give any dowry, certainly not any large sum like a million! an engagement ring for sure, other items of jewelry i think is something that can be negotiated, and you shouldnt be told it is a must.

you will probably have to pay for the expense of ceremony..which in itself could amount to a fair bit (depending on where and how many people). the number of guests, again you dont need to make it huge like a wedding, but all im saying is, it may very well be bigger than what is traditional engagement party in the western culture.

(I could also share with you my experiences of another culture where they tend to go overboard on all aspects of marriage, from engagement, to dowry, to the wedding itself) not saying I agree with all these things being necessary, but just letting you know that it does happen, and not always for reasons of wanting to scam someone. I know and have been to lots of weddings where the actual reception would have cost close to a million baht, add to that dowry and other items (gifts) for family members. crazy stuff, but there are people who do that.

eg. father of bride got some huge dowry from the groom. he gave them a huge house in bangkok in return. who knows which of the value was more, but they do it not cos they want the money, but its a way to show ability of the husband to take care of their daughter.

[babuhavas]

1 million baht divide by 365 days=2739 per day,

in this much money you will fined new girl everyday to love you.

[Norrad]

on the dowry aspect, I cant speak much. However, if they are genuine, they should be satisfied with a public ceremony (invite some guests, rather than internal family only). i dont think you should give any dowry, certainly not any large sum like a million! an engagement ring for sure, other items of jewelry i think is something that can be negotiated, and you shouldnt be told it is a must.

Some guests were invited to our engagement.

Traditionally you don't have to give a ring, that I gave because of my western ideals. You should give your wife to be some gold, not her parents. The amount of gold has to be an even number. My wife made it quite clear that it had to be 2 baht of gold, not the 3 I was intending to buy, she even had the shop weigh the ring to make sure we didn't exceed 2 baht in total. That gold and anything else you give can be used as part of the dowry during the actual wedding ceremony. 2 baht at the time was roughly 24000 Baht + 20K in the fixed deposit account meant I had to present 56000 Baht in cash at the wedding. Actually 55999 Baht as some tradition in her village said we have to remove 1 baht from whatever amount we were presenting.

[MiG16]

noise, I speak from a Thai perspective

when I say negotiate, i dont mean sit down and discuss with the family, but one should be able to with the person they are going to marry. she then lobbies her own family, depending on ability of her future husband. (you dont want to be pressured to pay more than you cna afford and end up in debt after the marriage!)

on the gold aspect and how much it weighs, it sounds like Norrad's wife could be of chinese background? chinese have many customs that deal with what is or is not an auspicious number. 4 I believe is one they associate with good fortune (I could be wrong)

having said the above, every family is different, despite customs. thats why i use the word 'negotiate'

of course you dont want to come across as a cheapskate, but you shouldnt be forced to over spend either.

face may be important in thai culture, but in the end if the family is really really rich, but the groom is not, but they determine that he is right for their daughter, its also possible the family will pay for a lot of the expenses associated with maintaining face in society for themselves (eg. pay for party, reception, or whatever else)

just talk to your girlfriend, discuss the details with her. however the only definite I WILL say is, you SHOULDNT be spending a million on dowry! unless you are some sort of billionaire.

[BigSnake]

What paying before you get to dip? sounds like yet another fishing expedition.I wonder how many others she has trolled before you. I would think if you are getting the informal wedding that means you will be sleeping with each other or have already. Most of the old ways have been chipped away & are a little more modern than living in Issan Or Buriram 50 years ago! Nowadays you got to watch out for the coy internet players.......You know the ones I go to university....Of how to fanagle money out of the poor farangs pocket. They use the education well-as it serves them.

I am not at all saying all girls are up to know good, but I would give this one a no go. To many out there, that you can at least sample the wares & see if you even can get along with to go down a very iffy path. Do yourself a favor- Lots of fish in the sea & way more are females in Thailand. Optimize your chances & keep looking. Once one has assigned herself to you, it's yours forever pretty much. OK if you like wearing a sweater you can't take off!

The right one is just around the corner. And she most likely won't be calling you a handsum man or darling(Darkling-a monkeys ass)

Norrad- nothing to do with your post at all I just spotted your post as my post came in. No offence at all intended- Glad you worked the sinsod down to 100,000 mine was 120,000baht as a loan & I figured that was the right ammount instead of trying to get the loan back later. 2 million Ouch!!!

Look more like a BARDOG!! Beardog(??)

[oldsparrow]

Ur, from the knowledge of a 5th generation Thai.

1. Sin sot is paid at the engagement. At present, sometimes it looks like they pay at the wedding as they wrap up two occasions together.

2. Of course the Thais want ot perform the ceremony in their environment so they can invite hteir relatives/friends. It's the family affairs.

3. Many respectable families of the girls do not set figure for sin sot nowaday. And the also oftenly state that all sin sot will be given back to the couple.

4. The sin sot amount depends on their social circle/wealth. My rich friend gave 9,999,999 Baht to his girl in addition to the ring.

IMHO if you don't like the crab of Thai culture especially the girl family's culture. May be it's not a good idea to marry a Thai girl. You may be not happy of how she share a life with you or the way she raises your kid.

If your are requested a set amount of sin sot. You can negotiate it down presenting you situation etc. But never let them sense the feeling that you may think "Why do you want my money." In fact if you really think like this of you girl/her family it can be better to marry a poor unfortunated girl for charity and have experience like many here. It can be clear cut easy to understand situation of donator and the dependant.

Edited June 4, 2009 by oldsparrow

[Longbow212]

As a British man living in Thailand I would give the following advice:

Where are you??? the UK??? tell her we do things differently in this country. Sin sot is not involved in engagement or marriage in the uk and is viewed as an medieval practice only reserved for buying farm animals etc. If she really loves you and wants to be with you she has to respect British values and learn to adapt to western culture.

Expecting to come to the UK and maintain all her outdated conservative Thai values is extremely arrogant. If she wants to be with you and have the benefits of living in the UK she has to learn that she is the one that must adapt to you and your culture not the other way around.

Living over here there are many many illogical/irrational/unfair things which we have to bite our lip over and although we might complain sometimes at the end of the day we have to respect that things are done differently here. One example is myself and many friends have to appreciate our late 20's early 30's thai girlfriends have to be home by 8pm to be with their controlling parents.

Stand by your guns on this one mate trust me, that way you will truly see if she is trying to take what she can from you or wants to be with you and try to accept things are done differently.

[noise]

noise, I speak from a Thai perspective

when I say negotiate, i dont mean sit down and discuss with the family, but one should be able to with the person they are going to marry. she then lobbies her own family, depending on ability of her future husband. (you dont want to be pressured to pay more than you cna afford and end up in debt after the marriage!)

on the gold aspect and how much it weighs, it sounds like Norrad's wife could be of chinese background? chinese have many customs that deal with what is or is not an auspicious number. 4 I believe is one they associate with good fortune (I could be wrong)

having said the above, every family is different, despite customs. thats why i use the word 'negotiate'

of course you dont want to come across as a cheapskate, but you shouldnt be forced to over spend either.

face may be important in thai culture, but in the end if the family is really really rich, but the groom is not, but they determine that he is right for their daughter, its also possible the family will pay for a lot of the expenses associated with maintaining face in society for themselves (eg. pay for party, reception, or whatever else)

just talk to your girlfriend, discuss the details with her. however the only definite I WILL say is, you SHOULDNT be spending a million on dowry! unless you are some sort of billionaire.

MiG16

Thanks for the clarification. I now understand what you meant and agree whole heartedly.

[Moonrakers]

As a British man living in Thailand I would give the following advice:

Where are you??? the UK??? tell her we do things differently in this country. Sin sot is not involved in engagement or marriage in the uk and is viewed as an medieval practice only reserved for buying farm animals etc. If she really loves you and wants to be with you she has to respect British values and learn to adapt to western culture.

Expecting to come to the UK and maintain all her outdated conservative Thai values is extremely arrogant. If she wants to be with you and have the benefits of living in the UK she has to learn that she is the one that must adapt to you and your culture not the other way around.

Living over here there are many many illogical/irrational/unfair things which we have to bite our lip over and although we might complain sometimes at the end of the day we have to respect that things are done differently here. One example is myself and many friends have to appreciate our late 20's early 30's thai girlfriends have to be home by 8pm to be with their controlling parents.

Stand by your guns on this one mate trust me, that way you will truly see if she is trying to take what she can from you or wants to be with you and try to accept things are done differently.

This man has a point actually.

So if you where in Thailand, then you are in her country and so have to respect Thai tradition.

If in the UK, then she is Thai and so you have to respect Thai tradition.

Doesn't work like that does it?

[G54]

Are you for real?

For 1, why does she have to get engaged in Thailand?

Pleeease..let me answer that one.... .....so cash can be deposited with the in-laws in Thailand and will be the last you will see of it ??

Very true though.

[G54]

1 million baht divide by 365 days=2739 per day,

in this much money you will fined new girl everyday to love you.

Consider the alternatives you could get by paying that much per day, or even per week !!

I know many a woman who would give you all the love and attention you want for 3k a week. Think how many years of 'love' you could get for that amount of money + you keep the 1 mil in the bank and get interest

[mrtoad]

I have met a young, attractive, university educated, traditional thai girl, visiting family in the UK. Really can't fault the girl at all. Love being with her. We wish to get to know each other better, but she returns to Thailand shortly. After discussion. it has been suggested that the best way may be to get engaged in thailand with ceremony, but without marriage. Then she can live with me (Separate bedrooms) and study for a time, in the UK, during which time we can see how relationships develop. Dowrys in the family, I know to have been in the region of 1 million Baht and it has been suggested that her's should be more. I do not have the lower figure, but it is certainly more obtainable than anything higher. Can anybody please advise me as to what to possibly expect? Is dowry payable on engagement only, as opposed to marriage? What is the family likely to expect from me?

Are you serious?

Thanks for giving me a chuckle.

[MiG16]

seeing that this topic keeps popping up every 2 days or so

and as someone rightly pointed out, there isnt much to go on in the pinned thread, Ive taken the liberty of moving posts from this thread to the pinned thread. (and may move more from other recent threads on the topic)

I hope the posters of those comments do not object, but if you do please PM me and I will rectify the situation.

cheers