Dreaded pronoun blues

[Edward B]

Can those expats out there with thai wives and/or g/fs tell us how they address their partners, as well as what pronoun you both use to call each other (in Thai of course)?

I have a terrible time trying to come up with a pronoun that I am comfortable with. In English it is just so easy. I and you! But thai seem to have a gazillion different ways to say these two words and I am buggered if I know which one to use.

I am serious by the way, so please no smart-arse replies (Chonabot). And Bud, if you're out there, please don't trash this thread.

[pnustedt]

I have the same problem - we use English pronouns (darling, etc). Her family seem to like it.

Thais don't seem too hot on names - my wife has the same name as her sister, given name is Thongliang. To distinguish one from the other my wife seems to be called Thong and her sister Liang. They don't get a lot of mail!

She has another sister with a daughter who visited us in HK, I asked for their English names to introduce them to friends - literally translated they were Crab and Vegetable!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Wouldn't it just be Dichan or Chan shortened for a female speaker, and Phom for a guy that covers I.  You is simply   Khun.

I know what you mean, Bud will have some advice for you

                                       

[chonabot]

Sorry Eddie , wasn't aware that I was in the smart-arse category , at least not with your threads

Here goes with a serious answer.

If we're not happy its Mung-you ( impolite) Goo - I (impolite)

Normal -Chan /Phom (I), Kuhn ( you)

Soppy - Teerak Jah

Grovelling - I call her Kuhnying.

Then theres the distinctly insulting-EE hah / Bok Hah

Ooops I'm getting carried away..

Chonabot

[Edward B]

Actually I meant smart-arse in the nice sense of the word  . Your post was quite helpful. Ta.

I just need to get out of the habit of calling myself 'I' and then speaking the rest of the sentence in Thai. 

It's not a good habit to keep, as 'I' in Thai is not a flattering word to say the least!

[mrentoul]

If we're not happy its Mung-you ( impolite) Goo - I (impolite)

They are impolite or vulgar, they are just familiar. They represent the earliest forms of me and you, long before today's more ''acceptable''  terms came along.

Edward, instead of using I, I suggest you refer to yourself in the third person, the way your wife probably does when she talks about herself.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Correcto Michael...a Thai called Somchai will say Somchai went/ thought etc....rarely phom.

[haltes]

Guys never refer to themselves by their name

Only women do it.

[johng]

If we're not happy its Mung-you ( impolite) Goo - I (impolite)

Normal -Chan /Phom (I), Kuhn ( you)

Soppy - Teerak Jah

Grovelling - I call her Kuhnying.

Then theres the distinctly insulting-EE hah / Bok Hah

Normally I would just call her by her name ??? the same as she calls me by my name.

some times as a joke I say khunying and she calls me khunshai.

or dahk ling (a corruption of darling) but oddly very similar to the Thai for a monkeys red arse    after calling her that sometimes  I need  to use the Soppy/grovelling -Teerak

or maybe warn jai- sweet heart.

But I am told the best would be Toon huar kong pom

means something like my princess.

I don't dare use the  hah  - sut   - sonteen - mung words

she might get ideas that the ducks need feeding  

[wolf5370]

Tend to use english - Babe, Darling, Beautiful etc. Or her Thai nickname (never use her real name other than on forms) - it is one of those few Thai nicknames that are 'nice sounds' rather than actually mean anythg, so can't translate it.

If speaking English, then say I for me (she does likewise). When speaking Thai, use the normal Phom, Chun/DeeChun.

When playful I call her by our surname prefixed with Mrs or Lady.

If I'm angry with her, I call her by her Thai Nickname usually (if I'm not hiding that is)

If she's angry with me she calls me by my first name - only time she ever uses it. She never swears or uses names such as dog or buffalo (mah and Kwai) with me, but she calls others by this if angry - usually when driving.

I sometimes refer to her as Khun Mia (Mrs Wife) when chatting with friends - she just refers to me as Samee (husband).

For a joke I might call her Mia Yai (Big Wife) as a pun on Mia Noi (literally Small Wife, but refering to a Mistress).

[mrentoul]

Guys never refer to themselves by their name

Only women do it.

Rubbish. Shows me how much you know about Thai.

[the scouser]

When I learnt Thai the (Thai) tutor advised that whereas Thai men do refer to themselves, on occasion, by their own names this may convey an impression of being homosexual if the person to whom you are speaking does not know you. For that reason she advised that non-Thai men should stick to "pom" unless they are either totally aware of the conversational situation they find themselves in, or that they are, indeed, homosexual.

In terms of the post my ex-missus used to call me "ai oo-an" and to me she always remains "ee dtee-a".

Scouse.

[haltes]

RE: Mr Rentoul

Well seeing as I have passed the Bor 6 exam and I guess you probably haven't then I would venture to say that I know more about Thai language than you do.....

The Scouser is correct as was I before, if you use it as a man then it has a homosexual implication.Therefore men do not use this form of address unless they are gay.

[mrentoul]

The Scouser is correct as was I before, if you use it as a man then it has a homosexual implication.Therefore men do not use this form of address unless they are gay.

How can you make such rigid generalisations? I also study this language, though I haven't passed any exam. But I don't need to sit one to know what I've heard my own non-gay friends say.

When I learnt Thai the (Thai) tutor advised that whereas Thai men do refer to themselves, on occasion, by their own names this may convey an impression of being homosexual if the person to whom you are speaking does not know you.

This is a more moderate response. The tone of my earlier one was too harsh. Thanks.

[haltes]

How can you make such rigid generalisations? I also study this language, though I haven't passed any exam. But I don't need to sit one to know what I've heard my own non-gay friends say.

Because I am correct, men do not normally use this mode of address to talk about themselves.

Pronouns in use vary depend on the speaker's status and relationship with the other person. Rao and kao can be used to refer to the 1st person as well depending on context.

Men sometime use Chan (the female from of address) when they talk to close friends or girlfriends.

As in :

Chan rak ther - I love you ฉันรักเธอ

Lastly I did not rubbish your post, do you feel so inadequate that you need to flame someone who does not agree with you?

[MaiChai]

You could try "chan rak ter".  

Chan is a polite and intermit way of saying 'I' when you are speaking romatically to your tee-lac.

Ter is the intermit way of saying 'you' in the same way.

I sure most of you folks must have heard chan and ter in Thai love songs?

Sometimes, instead of saying I, Thais use their first name (my daughter does it alot, "Marisa wants to go..." meaning 'I'). Makes things more hyperthetical/stand out. It sounds a bit strange when they do the same thing using English.

Its rude to use your wife/girlfriends nickname to her face; try and use her real name. Pig, small, fat, black, etc, doesn't sound nice, does it? (my wifes nick name is 'cooking pot') Speaking to others it may be necessary to use her nickname as people don't often know a persons real name.

Mia noi would be quite offensive. I would never say that to my wife as its an insult.

pom and kOOn should be used for neutral everyday conversation.

goo/meung are derogetry or for use between friends joking around. My kids use these all the time because it makes them look tough!

Don't forget to use dteua for animals and mun for things.

ee is a derogitary word for ladies (sisters?) who are not direct family. People joke around alot with this in my village when refering to other girls. ee kwan.

[MaiChai]

Rao is we/us?

rao sarm kon. เราสามคน We are three people.

ban nee khong rao บ้านนี่ของเรา This is our house

ภาษาไทยเป๊นลำบากโน

[mrentoul]

How can you make such rigid generalisations? I also study this language, though I haven't passed any exam. But I don't need to sit one to know what I've heard my own non-gay friends say.

Because I am correct, men do not normally use this mode of address to talk about themselves.

Pronouns in use vary depend on the speaker's status and relationship with the other person. Rao and kao can be used to refer to the 1st person as well depending on context.

Men sometime use Chan (the female from of address) when they talk to close friends or girlfriends.

As in :

Chan rak ther - I love you ฉันรักเธอ

Lastly I did not rubbish your post, do you feel so inadequate that you need to flame someone who does not agree with you?

You're simply wrong to say men don't use the third person. I could introduce you to a heap of them who use it. They all live here with me!

The original post asserted that men don't use the third person, only women do. No gay qualifier appeared in that post: it was men or women, and that's it, and I'm afraid that's plain wrong. Your more recent post (which takes a softer line) appears to acknowledge as much.

I admit the language I used in my reply to your post was too abrupt, and I apologise.

[mrentoul]

My kids use these all the time because it makes them look tough!

You're right. It's big man's language...coarse rather than offensive as such.

I suggest Edward call his wife ajarn...I'm sure that will go down well. Even better would be to call her the boss, as that's what most women seem to be!

[foolwholaughsatdeath]

This is actually a quite complicated issue, and all the posters so far have been correct, as all these words are in use.  What varies is in what social context they are used and how often.  This is determined by many factors - too long to go into here.  For those with serious interest, I would recommend an academic article written by two leading scholars on this very subject.  

See "Who am 'I' in Thai?" - The Thai First Person:Self-Reference or Gendered Self?   by Voravudhi Chirasombutti and Anthony Diller

They also address "you" although this is not referenced in the title of essay.   I found the article in the Chula central library, but I've also seen it in a collection selling at Asia books entitled, "Genders & Sexualities in Modern Thailand" edited by Peter Jackson andf Nerida Cook.

[markt]

Rao is we/us?

Yes, but it can also be used to refer to ones self.   Ugh!

[TizMe]

Interesting to note that no Native Thai has weighed in here.

Instead its left to all the TSL students to ponder..

[mrentoul]

Yes, but it can also be used to refer to ones self.   Ugh!

I've never liked the sound of that, either.

I think one of the most exciting things about use of personal pronouns in Thai is that they can change so rapidly with the context and speaker, as a couple of people said above.

One of my Thai roommates was on the phone a few times today and used, variously, goo, chan, and his nickname to refer to himself, though of course he was not choppng and changing at random. His choice of pronoun depended on who was on the other end of the phone.

In fact, the speaker's choice of pronoun can usually give you a fair idea of who it is that's on the phone, if you're a nosy type like me.

[MaiChai]

I've gone off books for learning Thai; its a bit like going over the same material again and again, which is boring. My favourite places to learn are:

http://www.thailandguidebook.com/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi

http://www.learningthai.com/

http://www.thai-language.com/

The first is the best; its interactive a bit like this forum, and to can get your ideas on the language clarified by Thais.

I also learn alot from my kids. Being in Thailand is not always the best place to learn; I get complacent and lazy with the heat. Listening to Thai music on MP3 cds from Pantip Plaza also helps (both modern and look toong/mor lam), and saves the guessing on what music to buy.

Anyone else got any good links for learning Thai on the Internet?

[Rinrada]

Oi-Oiy

[mrentoul]

Someone was asking for a contribution from a Thai. Here's my roommate on the topic. He says not only women, but also men can use their own names to refer to themselves in conversation, rather than using personal pronouns.

The effect can be to create a sense of closeness with the other person. Speakers, men and women, can refer to themselves in the third person in conversations with friends, relatives, or even in the workplace.

ผมเป็นคนไทยคับแล้วผมอยากจะบอกว่านี้ไม่ใช่เฉพาะผู้หญิงหรือเกย์ที่ต้องพูดถึงตัวเองโดยใช้

ชื่อของตัวเองแทนตัวเมื่อเวลาพูดถึงตัวของเขากับคนอื่นแต่ผู้ชายบางคนก็ใช้วิธีนี้ด้วยเหมือนกันเพราะว่ามันจะทำให้คนที่คุยด้วยรู้สึกสนิทสนมกันมากขึ้นและไม่แน่เสมอไปหรอกคับที่จะต้องป็นผู้หญิงหรือผู้ชายที่จะต้องใช้คำว่า ผม หรือฉันแทนตัวของเขาเอง ไปเสียทุกครั้งบางครั้งพวกเขาก็ต้องใช้ชื่อแทนตัวเองเหมือนกันโดยเฉพาะเวลาคุยกับเพื่อนหรือญาติและเพื่อนที่ทำงาน

[wolf5370]

mrentoul,

by purchance did you mean:

ผมเป็นคนไทยครับแล้วผมอยากจะบอกว่านี้ไม่ใช่เฉพาะผู้หญิงหรือเกย์ที่ต้องพูดถึงตัวเองโดยใช้ ชื่อของตัวเองแทนตัวเมื่อเวลาพูดถึงตัวของเขากับคนอื่น แต่ผู้ชายบางคนก็ใช้วิธีนี้ด้วยเหมือนกันเพราะว่ามันจะทำให้คนที่คุยด้วยรู้สึกสนิทสนมกันมากขึ้นและไม่แน่เสมอไปหรอกครับที่จะต้องเป็นผู้หญิงหรือผู้ชายที่จะต้องใช้คำว่า ผม หรือ ฉัน แทนตัวของเขาเองไปเสียทุกครั้ง บาง ครั้งพวกเขาก็ต้องใช้ชื่อแทนตังเองเหมือนกันโดยเฉพาะเวลาคุยกับเพื่อน หรือ ญาติและเพื่อนที่ทำงาน

I am Thai. I like to tell you that not only women and gay people like to say their name when they talk to other people. Some men like to mention their name as it makes the other person feel that he is more familiar. Men and women can not always use Pom or Chun, sometimes they have to use their name when they talk to their friends, cousins or colleagues.

Sorry, couldn't resist showing off!

[Indo-Siam]

I am far from an expert on Thai, but going through this entire thread, I was most struck by the omission of a couple of fairly obvious observations (at least to me).

First - in casual routine daily speech, it seems to me that most Thais frequently omit the personal pronun for "I" altogether - getting into a taxi, a Thai starts out simply "bpai...(wherever)".   Going to get a bite to eat - its is simply "bpai ghin khao" - again, the first-person personal pronoun is simply omitted.  Ordering something - "Khor nam bplao kaeow nung, khrap" - again, the first person singular is simply implied.

I have on numerous occasions listened to chatter going on for several minutes without detecting any use of the first person pronoun in any of its forms - by any Thai speaker.

Also, no one has mentioned the use of "Pee" or "Nhong" as second person pronoun.  In daily speech bewteen persons familiar with one another, at least as far as I have paid atrention, these are almost always used - with or without using an associated name.  In my office, the "pee Nok" type use of the nickname is only used across the room, to distinguish between several individuyals that are older than the speaker.  If only two are in the room, it is always just "pee".

None of the comments I make above really apply to written or formal speaking. And I notice that Thai's almost never use the "Pee" or "Nhong" qualifiers when speaking with or about a non-Thai.  But it is almost universally used in the local "neighborhood" and office speech situations.

My comments are not intended to contradict any of the comments already posted - most of which are somehat familar to me already (I have never previously even considered forms of address between gay lovers).  I just wanted to throw in a few comments that have not already been beaten to death.

I now invite my comments to take their beating - I would be interested in hearing the thoughts of others concerning the aspects I raised.

I am always interested in gaining more insight into the Thai language.

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

[Richard Hall]

Much has been said already and the "right" approach, if there is one at all, depends surely always on the situation and the relationship of the people. Also what may be right for a Thai may not be appropriate for a foreigner employing the language and may even result in problems and unintended insult.

Except you want to provoke or looking for trouble NEVER use Goo/Mueng. Although these are traditional proper expressions and sometimes still get used by old (Thai) people nowadays they just indicate bad lanuage, low standard and low education. If used by a farang the situation can even become physical!

Wife: Since people differ and some feel confident with approaches others don't, the best solution is surely to ask your wife what she personally prefers. I generally address my wife with "khun" or sometimes when the kids are involved with "mae"  and refer to myself as pom or "papa".

Own kids: Name, nuh or toe. Referring to myself: Only "papa" by means of talking about myself as a third person. Using "phom" really shocks my kids because they understand this as a way of trying to distance myself from them.

Other kids: Name, nuh or toe. Referring to myself as pom or as a third person by using my first name (Richard) or lung (= uncle).

Adults: "Khun" or if familiar Khun AND the persons first name. Referring to myself as pom or as a third person by means of using my first name "Richard" (in case I am familiar with that person). I generally stay away from "chan" but rather employ the more polite pom.

Using "khun" or even "tan" and "pom" is surely never the wrong  approach because it is the most polite way particularly if also other people are around overhearing the conversation. "Ti rag", "darling", 'baby" should better only be used if you talk to your wife under four eyes because third parties may get irritated and fee uncomfortable. Being overly polite in your language rather than being too casual (particularly as a foreigner using Thai as a second language) always has you on the safe side and will avoid problem and "lose face" situations because expressing respect to another individual is surely better than appearing to be disrespectful. In return you will gain respect yourself and considered as a person with good manners.

[mrentoul]

Sorry, couldn't resist showing off!

Hey, I wasn't translating, just explaining. To be honest, I haven't read it through myself yet. Thank-you for the translation.

Since you are Thai, why don't you contribute?