Hillary Clinton Arrives In Bangkok, En Route To Asean Meet

[Texpat]

I wonder how her protective services have reacted to the gun battles raging across Phuket...

People dying in the streets.

[animatic]

I seriously doubt a tour of Patong girlie bars

and counterfeit stalls where this gang war is happening

was ever on her itinerary...

They are dieing in the streets of Washington DC daily too.

Edited July 22, 2009 by animatic

[Spee]

So now we are dissing her appearance. Kind of sexist, huh?

Again with the politics of race and gender. That's pretty sad. What I said has nothing to do with her being a female. It has everything to do with her being a complete phony and looking totally out of place in front of the camera. Look at the Thai gentleman. His smile is very casual and natural, as a smile should be. Her smile on the other hand, along with the beedy eyed stare into space, is purely unnnatural and totally rehearsed, as if to say I am acting here and not really showing sign of being genuine.

[Ijustwannateach]

^Personally speaking, I think they both look like politicians (whether that's a positive or negative comment I leave up to the individual readers).

[geriatrickid]

Too bad I didn't know her schedule so one couldn't go out and trow some water-bottles in her direction.

Nasty piece of work, she is. Together with Biden they are a clear symbol of corruption in Obamas government.

Very mature comment. Throwing objects at someone. Speaks volumes about you and your approach to dealing with people you disagree with. Try it now and I think a Thai army sniper will share a bullet with your noggin.

She's a divisive, abrasive woman.

Perfect candidate for a novice community organizer to choose as chief diplomat.

Odd that if she was a man, the description would be tough, no nonsense and disciplined. Letting one's fear of educated independent women show are we? Mrs. Clinton has a lot in common with a certain princess. Bet you wouldn't dare say that of this princess. It's also odd that because President Obama worked with the community he is vilified. Would it have been better if he had been a former B movie actor that uttered empty platitudes or a third rate guttersnipe lawyer that made his name during the McCarthy witchunts? Or maybe it would be ok if his father was a nazi sympathizer and his family owed its fortune to illegal distribution of alcohol?

Asean countries might try to get into US good books, but if it doesn't work, they'll just say "<deleted> it, it's easier to do business with Chinese", and the US might kiss good bye to the region.

This statement doesn't make any sense. The US is probably the most open market in the world. The US buying of SE Asian products is what created the economic boom in SE Asia. The Chinese will never let SE Asian products compete fairly against their own. To think that ASEAN nations would forsake the US cash cow for a closed and protectionist Chinese market that directly and adversely competes against them for the US market is naive nonsense.

The US is far from an open market. The trade barriers and petty rules and regulations can make the Japanese trade barriers seem simple. The reality is that all countries have protectionist trade policies. The US market is easier for ASEAN countries to enter than China because the ASEAN countries are exporting the products for which there is a market in the USA. China doesn't need Thai food as China is self sufficient and an exporter of food. China doesn't need Thai vehicles or appliances since China is self sufficient and has its own factories. The USA abandoned it's small manufacturers long ago as the US consumers put price ahead of long term benefits in part because corporate USA betrayed the trust of the consumer by putting out shoddy over-priced goods.

[TAWP]

Too bad I didn't know her schedule so one couldn't go out and trow some water-bottles in her direction.

Nasty piece of work, she is. Together with Biden they are a clear symbol of corruption in Obamas government.

Very mature comment. Throwing objects at someone. Speaks volumes about you and your approach to dealing with people you disagree with. Try it now and I think a Thai army sniper will share a bullet with your noggin.

Says more about you that you cannot recognize an expression of opinion about someones public voting-past and plans for the future and how one in reality does approach people in debate.

And thanks for the death-treat. Speaks volumes about you.

[Groongthep]

Asean countries might try to get into US good books, but if it doesn't work, they'll just say "<deleted> it, it's easier to do business with Chinese", and the US might kiss good bye to the region.

This statement doesn't make any sense. The US is probably the most open market in the world. The US buying of SE Asian products is what created the economic boom in SE Asia. The Chinese will never let SE Asian products compete fairly against their own. To think that ASEAN nations would forsake the US cash cow for a closed and protectionist Chinese market that directly and adversely competes against them for the US market is naive nonsense.

No one wants to compete with China, they'd rather integrate with it.

I keep up with the news fairly well and I have seen no evidence whatsoever that any ASEAN country wants to integrate with China, except maybe Burma.

Also China is still growing, their internal demand is growing, while the US can't really promise any pick up for Asean exports.

With the exception of agricultural products and natural resources the Chinese have little or no market for SE Asean goods. If it can be manufactured, the Chinese will make it themselves before buying it from ASEAN.

Integration of regional economies with China is an inevitable process, the US can only slow it down at best.

As China's economy grows it will of course want more from it's neighbors economically. Why would the US want to slow that down? It's a world economy now and has been for quite some time. Prosperity in asia will also promote prosperity everywhere else in the world. A minority of American right wing jingoists fear Chinese economic growth. Obama, Clinton and most economists rightfully do not.

Of course Thailand will continue to export to the US, but the days when it wanted to depend on the US alone are over, they'd rather hitch their wagon to the Chinese now, and with these comes US geopolitical decline as well.

The days when Thailand wanted to depend on the US alone were way back during the Vietnam War timeframe. Thailand has been selling goods all over the world for decades since then. I agree that the US is in geopolitical decline, especially since the Bush Administration destroyed most of the country's credibility with the rest of the world by compromising the nation's principles, but with the new Obama administration America is starting to get back on the right track. It will never be the dominant world power it once was but as jingthing said it will continue be a major influence for some time to come.

Clinton is walking a tight rope here - she needs cooperation on human rights and democracy, but they only given her the stick, no carrots.

<deleted> does that mean?

[Mario2008]

1 post deleted for rude comment.

[Publicus]

It's understandable that ASEAN leaders would be drawn, at least somewhat, to forming alliances with China. However, they do so at their own peril. Chinese are ethnically closer to SE Asians, so that's a draw for SE Asians. Either way, Chinese immigrants are continually blending in to SE Asian countries and forming major businesses wherever they go - and their allegiance will be with China, at least for several generations.

Thaksin and many of his closest people are Chinese descent. Malaysia and Indonesia have periodic riots regarding indigenous people feeling they're being crowded out by Chinese businesses taking over.

Being economically allied to China can have advantages, but no one should think the Chinese care for any others, near as much as they care for themselves. Whenever there's a humanitarian crisis (SE Asia or elsewhere), where are the Chinese? Whenever economic help is needed, where are the Chinese? If a dictator gets too oppressive in a neighboring country, where are the Chinese? The answer to all those questions is: THEY'RE OUT TO LUNCH or THEY'RE NOT THERE TO ASSIST. Indeed, they don't even have organizations to assist others on a large scale. No Red Cross, No World Bank, No Medecins Sans Borders, No Amnesty International. They're out for themselves, period.

After ten years of teaching English, Social Science and History in Thailand until December 2007 and more recently teaching English at a university in China, I can (and should) report that the Chinese are more than concerned about the Sino-Thai Thaksin and his Sino-Thai political party the Thai Rak Thai and each of its post 2007 outcropings.

The Chinese actively and firmly condemned monarchy as a form of government a hundred years ago and irrevokably continue to do so today. The condemnations are by each the elitist Communist Party of China (CPC) or by the people and voters of the democratic republic of Taiwan.

Thus do the leaders of PRChina welcome Thaksin and the essential existence of the TRT to create a People's Republic of Thailand as a new and powerful neighbor to its south on the Indo-China peninsula along with its PRC ally there of Burma/Myanmar, where the PRC is constructing naval bases and encouraging and supporting Burma against the world community of democracies in our opposition to the military rule in Burma over the past several decades. (If I were Burma I'd change my name too.)

However, the central matter to leaders of nations, whether in Thailand, SE Asia more broadly, or in the West or in Africa where China is making deals to obtain natural resources, as it is also doing in certain countries of South America (historically the 'backyard' of the US), is the continued attitude of the present dynasty of Chinese leaders, the CPC, towards their thousands years old compulsion to conquer neighboring peoples in order to create an ever expanding internal empire of subjugated peoples.

The CPC dynasty is a young and nervous dynasty in its compulsion to continue the empire its predecessors constructed prior to Mao's Revolutionary takeover of China in 1949. This is because the current ruling dynasty of the PRChina continues to consisist of the Han, who are the Chinese Chinese. Indeed the Han are willing and egar to continue their ancient tradition of the conquest of neighoring peoples to their own lands.

The worst, greatest and in reality the NIGHTMARE fear of the present Han rulers of PRChina, the CPC, is internal dissent, disagreement, disunity, protest and what it calls "social disorder." So called social disorder most threatens the Han empire and its imperialist rule of subjugated peoples of previously conquered Han neighbors by the Han under its present incarnation of the CPC.

Nations of the world know that if the China empire revolts, if there is a Jesus Christ or a Gandhi, a Nelson Mandella or a George Washington, then the CPC rulers of the latter day empire of Han China are likely, if not surely, doomed and that China will shrink to the historical territory of the ancient Han Chinese.

THE PRESENT RULERS OF HAN CHINA, THE CPC, KNOW THIS MORE REALISTICALLY THAN ANYONE; the present Han rulers of PRChina more realistically know this better than the populations of the democracies of the would could ever imagine.

And among the Han, as with the ayatollas of the Islamic Republic of Iran, there are internal tensions in PRChina in respect to democracy and a modern and proper form of government that date back to the republic of Sun Yat Sen in 1911 and which snake forward to the CPC massacre of its own people in Tienamen Square in 1989.

More specifically, we see the conquered and brutally subjugated people of Tibet; the repressed and shunted aside Turkik speaking Muslim people of the westernmost reach of the empire of China, the of province XinJiang (Shin-jiang), among others, who continue to rebel against the empire building rule of the Han Chinese, to include the ever threatened democratic people of the Gwomindang which recently has returned to governance in Taiwan and which recognizes the Repubic of China founded itself by the Gwomindang founder and the first Republic of China Pres Dr Sun Yat Sen in 1911. dynasties before it.

It is common knowledge among leaders of nations throughout the world that the inherent imperialist culture and nature of the Han leaders of China, regardless of whether they once were monarchist or presently consist of some form of republicans, will fight to the death to retain their empire of subjugated peoples which everywhere are called 'minorities'.

And that the Han are looking beyond its current 'limited' borders to subjugate other peoples, as recently most visibly in Thailand in the emergence of the TRT and its covert and nefarious program to create a People's Republic of Thailand. A joy of a prospect to PRChina indeed.

It is common knowledge among leaders of nations throughout the world that this fierce imperialsim among the Han of China, whether monarchist or presently as a sort of republican state, will cause the empire of China, which is what PRChina remains and contines to be, to impress thousands of troops upon the subjugated peoples who are a part of the continuing empire of Han China.

This continuation of the mentality and existence of an imperial China under the present day Han rulers of PRChina, the CPC, is to the leaders and elites of nations in the SE Asia region the great threat to all nations in this region of the world, especially to Thailand which over some score of years has strived to develop some semblance of democracy desite the overwhelming odds agains it ever occurring successfully.

This mentality of conquest, subjegation and rethlessly brutal repression of ethnic rights and aspirations is the great threat to the nations of any continent of the world in doing business with PRChina.

Indeed, few if any even marginally respectable countries--their leaders and their people--want to be associated with a Han neo-imperialist regime which is more likely to tear itself apart as it asserts by brutal and unconscienable military repressive force its imperial imperative against the peoples of the modern world who are affected by and demand democracy, self-governmance and self-determination.

The stakes are high in Thailand. However, leaders of nations throught the world quietly look to the European Union and to the US and Canada, Australia, to protect them against the historical compulsion of the Han of China to conquer, subjegate and to dominate them.

Simultaneously and concomitantly, many countries of the world are waiting patiently for the inevitable in PRChina, i.e., its self destruction and immolation as it continues to persue its increasingly unattainable historical imperitive to conquer, subjegate and dominate those who live adjacent to it. Or who live near it. Or who do business with it.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Publicus

[Plus]

I keep up with the news fairly well and I have seen no evidence whatsoever that any ASEAN country wants to integrate with China, except maybe Burma.

"It's the economy, stupid."

Chinese exports account for only 20% of their GDP so there's a huge domestic market to tap in by either exporters or investors. Taiwan and South Korea managed to keep their exports going by focusing on China instead of the West, (according to Pridiyatorn Devakula).

Anyway, the first accounts of Clinton visit are in. I think she managed to keep everyone interested without giving out any real carrots.

"Long standing relationships", "new chapter", "fresh commitment", bla bla bla - what's in it for Thailand?

I absolutely love her description of Thai politics as "spicy".

[hammered]

A Hilary quote:

"It's both the Land of Smiles and a place that has a vibrant democracy," she said during the interview, which was aired on Modernine last night.

"Perhaps sometimes its politics is as spicy as its food. [And despite issues Thais still have to work out], we have great confidence in the vibrancy of your democracy and the stability of your country."

From the Nation: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/07/23...cs_30108155.php

[Jingthing]

"Perhaps sometimes its politics is as spicy as its food. [And despite issues Thais still have to work out], we have great confidence in the vibrancy of your democracy and the stability of your country."

How very diplomatic and non-confrontational. What she was really thinking: "you lot are f%*&%(&%)&*%" but I still like your food, not as much as Indian food though!

Edited July 23, 2009 by Jingthing

[brahmburgers]

(culled from Publicus' dissertation) "The stakes are high in Thailand. However, leaders of nations throughout the world quietly look to the European Union and to the US and Canada, Australia, to protect them against the historical compulsion of the Han of China to conquer, subjegate and to dominate them."

I agree, leaders of China's neighbors can engage with China as they please, but be wary.

Burma hasn't been wary, and now a significant proportion of their infrastructure (buses, airports, banks, apartments, etc) is owned by Chinese, most from Sechuan. Laos, Thailand and the rest of SE Asia are in a similar pickle. Perhaps it's not such a bad thing. After all, historically, there have always been dominance by one ethnic group over another. The Caribs took over the Caribbean islands, Europeans and Africans took over N.America, Europeans took over NZ and Australia, Mongolians took over Central Asia and China, Scandinavians and Francs took over Britain, ...the list goes on and on.

However, in contemporary times, it's ironic that, on one side of its mouth the Chinese Dragon talks about disdaining imprerialism, yet its actions show hundreds of Han Chinese weekly moving to settle in Tibet and Ughur regions. And China maintains dozens of ballistic missiles pointed at Taiwan as part of their plan to intimidate the Taiwanese in to joining with the mainland.

Little known fact: When the Brits inked a deal with China re; Hong Kong, the agreement said (to the effect) "after 100 years, Britain will return all the territory north of _______ Road." I read the original contract which is framed in a tiny museum in HK. I think the name of the road is Cemetery or Boundary (can't recall), but it's a major east/west road in the northern section of Kowloon peninsula. In effect, the official agreement stipulated that all the prize real estate (southern Kowloon, Victoria and the other islands) were not part of the agreement re; what was to be given by Britain to China 100 years hence.

If the Brits had insisted on keeping with the original contract, it would still own the choicest chunks of HK.

Edited July 23, 2009 by brahmburgers

[Groongthep]

I keep up with the news fairly well and I have seen no evidence whatsoever that any ASEAN country wants to integrate with China, except maybe Burma.

"It's the economy, stupid."

Chinese exports account for only 20% of their GDP so there's a huge domestic market to tap in by either exporters or investors. Taiwan and South Korea managed to keep their exports going by focusing on China instead of the West, (according to Pridiyatorn Devakula).

I was talking about the economy Einstein. Using the "stupid" quote from the 1990's Clinton campaign was cute. Not only is it timely given Hillary's visit but name calling always adds such maturity to one's statements.

To get back on topic, Taiwan and South Korea were not members of ASEAN last time I looked. Those two east asian countries have developed research and development (R&D) programs from where they can produce new products useful to the Chinese market. Thailand has practically no R&D; all they do is import or copy others' technology hence other than tourism, agricultural prducts and raw minerals have nothing to sell the Chinese that the Chinese can't make for themselves at a cheaper price.

[animatic]

One must ask what is it within the 'Han Culture' that allows them to emigrate

and do business world wide and quickly outstrip many locals in their own territory.

It must be cultural.

The ability to be orderly as an extended group, for a reason.

Also partly to the kow tow culture.

The extra strong work ethic from youth to dotage.

Hard-nosed business tactics ingrained as culture.

A premuim on super LONG TERM view of both

current business entities and extended clan FUTURE business.

A sense of historical continuity as a people regardless of where they are.

As viewed in their collegian and Tong associations.

Flexability within a guest culture, like Siam-izing their names;

under pressure of course, to smooth the path of family business.

Taking care of their own, such as putting new immigrants to work

and teaching them the local tounge and customs.

If such a group moves into a region noted for laize-faire work ethics,

complacent vision of potential opportunities, and even general heat driven sloth,

it might not be surprising that they rise quickly to a level of group organization,

coupled with increased political control that suits the needs of the business and community.

Yet is often seen as threatening to the native locals, who culturally are just not able to compete.

We see that in Malyasia as well as Thailand and general SE Asia.

The post euro/west colonies were generally take in hand after the 'colonizers' left,

by the MOST organized culture remaining. Too typically Han Chinese.

Some indigenous peoples might argue it was just passing the baton to an ASIAN colonizer,

and that trend is still being equalized, or not, in the region.

[Plus]

Groongthep, if you want to argue that Thailand has no chance of success in doing business with China - it's a big topic for another thread.

If you want to say they haven't been trying - you are plain wrong. There have been counless articles and interviews about it. The Nation even run a special weekly "China economy" supplement for a while, and in some schools they introduced mandatory Chinese lessons because that's where they see their future.

If you want to argue that the US has nothing to worry about its influence in Asean because China is not attractive to them anyway - it's a matter of opinion, and yours goes very much against the general trend.

[Jingthing]

We see that in Malyasia as well as Thailand and general SE Asia.

You cannot compare the integration of Chinese in Malaysia and Indonesia vs. Thailand. There is no history of violence and institutional discrimination against Chinese here, correct?

[PeaceBlondie]

Her long interview from Chula Univ. last night was magnificent, masterful, dynamic, diplomatic. Comments about Thai politics being as spicy as Thai food, knowing Thais' concerns for clothing colors, her insistence on calling our neighbor "Burma," her tour of the North and concerns about human trafficking back in the 1990's, refusal to rehash the US recent historical politics, her insistence that ASEAN should decide for itself to sanction or expell Burma - flawless, and delivered without notes.

[Jingthing]

Her long interview from Chula Univ. last night was magnificent, masterful, dynamic, diplomatic.

Will she be too old to be president in 2016? It was rough this time, having two great choices.

[hammered]

Groongthep, if you want to argue that Thailand has no chance of success in doing business with China - it's a big topic for another thread.

If you want to say they haven't been trying - you are plain wrong. There have been counless articles and interviews about it. The Nation even run a special weekly "China economy" supplement for a while, and in some schools they introduced mandatory Chinese lessons because that's where they see their future.

If you want to argue that the US has nothing to worry about its influence in Asean because China is not attractive to them anyway - it's a matter of opinion, and yours goes very much against the general trend.

And I would add the actual palpable changes that anyone who has lived here for a couple of decades will have noticed.

[Plus]

There were Chinese riots in Bangkok, very long time ago.

Most Thai Chinese here (or in Malaysia for that matter) don't have any affiliation with China as a country, only as a culture.

In Thailand the integration and dedication are remarkable. Even those "Thai Chinese to save the country" t-shirts are remarkable, despite their nationalistic innuendoes. I mean, if you talk about chovinism - it seems in Thailand the "immigrants" are at the forefront.

[Jingthing]

Yes I agree the smooth integration and acceptance of Chinese in Thailand is remarkable. Something farangs can look forward to in 1000 years maybe.

[Bluelotus]

AP reporting Police have blown up a motorcycle parked near the conference

[PeaceBlondie]

I live in a pure Chinese community near Thaksins birthplace. For 200 years, these migrants from Yunnan province have spoken Chinese before Thai. Yet they are also 100% Thai nationalists. Same as the ones in Lamphun.

Back to Hillary - she's incredible.

[samran]

Yes I agree the smooth integration and acceptance of Chinese in Thailand is remarkable. Something farangs can look forward to in 1000 years maybe.

I take it you've never met 'farang' who were born here (or moved here at a young age), grown up here, and do very well here. Plenty of them about, you just don't notice it.

People here on TV don't understand that wherever you go, the first generation of migrants always face difficult adjustments. It is only their kids who generally thrive.

Edited July 23, 2009 by samran

[Publicus]

Her long interview from Chula Univ. last night was magnificent, masterful, dynamic, diplomatic. Comments about Thai politics being as spicy as Thai food, knowing Thais' concerns for clothing colors, her insistence on calling our neighbor "Burma," her tour of the North and concerns about human trafficking back in the 1990's, refusal to rehash the US recent historical politics, her insistence that ASEAN should decide for itself to sanction or expell Burma - flawless, and delivered without notes.

Sec Clinton and Prez Obama coordinate well, efficiently and effectively, as do their support underlings from their chiefs of staff and their policy assistants to the lesser personnel who coordinate mechanics. (Reminds me of the successful Obama campaign.)

Further, the State Department actually does an excellent job day in and day out globally. The political appointees to the US Embassy in Bangkok are actually competent and knowledgable professionals; they are 'political' only in the sense they are appointed by the incumbent POTUS and SECSTATE. Some ambassadors (or Cabinet secretaries) actually are retained by a new administration.

The Foreign Service Officers in Bangkok and the policy makers at 'Foggy Bottom' (Dept of State Headquarters in Washington) actually know their stuff in respect to Thailand and ASEAN as a whole.

Having a Secretary of State, not to mention a president who're on the ball is a magnificent change. All the lights are on cause the house is full of sharp people who are quick and constructively purposeful.

Two final points for the moment: 1) As I say, if I were Burma I'd try to change my name too, and 2) we can bet the farm that those first day in Thailand colors were chosen carefully and wisely.

(Which ever the colors may have been .)

Edited July 23, 2009 by Publicus

[Plus]

"We're grateful that we have a wonderful relationship with the military in Thailand, because we want to be ready to disaster assistance or any other cisis that may occur", she said in an interview with Suthichai Yoon yesterday.

[Jingthing]

Yes I agree the smooth integration and acceptance of Chinese in Thailand is remarkable. Something farangs can look forward to in 1000 years maybe.

I take it you've never met 'farang' who were born here (or moved here at a young age), grown up here, and do very well here. Plenty of them about, you just don't notice it.

People here on TV don't understand that wherever you go, the first generation of migrants always face difficult adjustments. It is only their kids who generally thrive.

I am talking about in general. Obviously in the past the masses of Chinese who migrated here had no problems getting residence and citizenship. Compare to westerners, I imagine well less than one percent of us ever achieve that (not that so many of us want it though). If you are talking about mixed race children, that is not the same issue, and you bloody well know it. Of course they can become Thai.

[Publicus]

If Thaksin and all of his loyal generals and politicians hadn't any clue about the coup, how could anyone expect the US Government to have known?

I did take note however that the day after Gen Surayed was appointed PM the U.S. Ambassador Ralph Boyce dropped by the general's office for a brief visit (as the ambassador was, ahem, on his way to travel abroad for a week or so).

The US and Thailand do have a rare beast called the U.S.-Thai Joint Military Command headquartered in Bangkok. I think the US has such a beast only with Thailand and, since the Korean Conflict (1950-53) South Korea.

However, I do notice that Sec Clinton said she wouldn't discuss too much of the past history of Thailand, which I would call excellent decision making.

[Publicus]

Yes I agree the smooth integration and acceptance of Chinese in Thailand is remarkable. Something farangs can look forward to in 1000 years maybe.

I take it you've never met 'farang' who were born here (or moved here at a young age), grown up here, and do very well here. Plenty of them about, you just don't notice it.

People here on TV don't understand that wherever you go, the first generation of migrants always face difficult adjustments. It is only their kids who generally thrive.

I am talking about in general. Obviously in the past the masses of Chinese who migrated here had no problems getting residence and citizenship. Compare to westerners, I imagine well less than one percent of us ever achieve that (not that so many of us want it though). If you are talking about mixed race children, that is not the same issue, and you bloody well know it. Of course they can become Thai.

True and Tiger Woods chose not to. Don't know his Thai mother's citizenship...