Self employed it workers

[rossigee]

I've been coming to Thailand now for a few years, usually for about six months of the year. The other six months, I am a self employed software developer in the UK. Obviously, the income I make in the six months at home supports me for the six months I am here. In the UK, I work from home, and simply pay tax on my income.

However, I am now living with my Thai girlfriend, and don't particularly wish to have to return home. I would like to continue my work from here instead, and pay my taxes to the Thai government. So I've been investigating the possibility of obtaining a working visa as a self-employed IT home-worker. Initially, I figured that the Thai government would be as happy with this arrangement as any other countries government.

However, the more I look into it, the more it seems that to obtain a working permit, I must either find a company to work for, or I must either set up a company, which involves a significant initial outlay and a huge amount of red tape (I know an American friend who gave up trying after a year of headaches and reluctantly ended up working for someone else's already established company instead). For example, one of the requirements that I do not understand seems to be the need to have non-residential working premises, which I do not want or need. This is the 21st century, isn't it?

I know I could marry my girlfriend and have her set up a business etc, but I feel that this is more than is necessary in this case, and could lead to stresses between us, so I am not prepared to take this step. I may marry her for love one day, but not for convenience!  I am still only in my mid twenties, so not really prepared to marry just yet.

As I do not match any of the required criteria I have found so far for a work permit, and was wondering if there are any other farang IT professionals in a similar position, and wondering what they do? I know that many simply work on their tourist visa, but I feel this is not really in the interests of the Thai people, for whom I have more respect.

I can speak, read and write Thai fairly well (my girlfriend does not speak English), and I have IT skills that are very rare among Thai IT people. I have already spent a fair amount of my time and money helping some of my computer-literate Thai friends to learn these skills, as well as helping to convert open source software programs to the Thai language, for the benefit of the Thai people in general. I would like to be able to teach more Thais these skills on a more formal and paid basis. With a working permit, I would also be in a position to take up the many offers of work within Thailand that my Thai friends have offered me because they cannot find similarly qualified Thai people to do this work (or I could train staff for them).

If I was granted a work permit, I would also be bringing more money into the country by continuing my work for my foreign clients, invoicing them and paying tax within Thailand. I am already contributing to the economy by spending my hard-earned UK cash here.

It is my opinion that I, and people like me, would be of benefit to the Thai economy and educational system. However, the immigration laws seem skewed towards rejecting us, and the potential benefits we could offer.

I understand that there are many drifters working in Thailand without work permits, taking up jobs that Thai people would otherwise be able to do, increasing unemployment etc. but particularly in the case of IT professionals with certain skillsets, Thailand seems to be lacking both qualified workers and teachers.

Am I right in thinking that despite the potential benefit to the Thai people and economy, I am still not wanted by the Thai government? I know the Thai people, at least those that I have spoken to, want me to be able to work for and help them.

Until such times as I find I am able to work in Thailand, I shall simply continue to enjoy my time as a holiday (yuu sabai sabai), spend a little time helping my friends, and continue looking into the possibilites of getting a work permit. Is there a government organisation I can put my case to, or are the rules set in stone?

Chok dii khrap,

--

Ross

[dr_Pat_Pong]

The opening Thaivisa page has a link to Sunbelt Asia. They are expert in Work Permit and business setup here. The MD   Mr Greg, will give you some advice.

[kwiz117]

rossigee

I am in late 20’s and an IT Consultant. Faced with the same problem you are facing. I have a very similar story to yours.

You will find many Foreigners offering various types of VISA and Work Permit services in Bangkok. Be Careful.

Many innocent farang are facing enough of problems in Thailand due to the advises given to them by so called Professionals both Thai and falang. Actually it is better to get an advice from an open forum like this, coz you will get many different replies. So the chances of misdirections for personal gains are minimal.

My advice to you is to find good company to work in Thailand and obtain a work permit through them. That will sort out your problem. I do not think it is much harder to find a job for a guy in your age and the skills you have described. Since you are having your own personal business contacts, my advice to you is to go for a very nominal salary and then earn money by engaging in your personal work on part time basis. I started like that. Then time to time, I applied for good Companies and was fortunate enough to find a good Company with a good package in Thailand. I am sure you will find it easier than me due to your Thai language skills.

Before I decided on working, I also went to some Work Permit Agencies owned by foreigners to get advises. Some advised to set up my own Company, one tried to sell an ongoing Bankrupt Business belongs to a party known to them, same guy also tried to sell a business that has a dispute over the lease period. Be extremely careful.

Good luck,

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I would only recommend someone in whom I have trust. I said ask for advice from someone who knows. You are free to use or not use his services.

[Guest IT Manager]

Before I decided on working, I also went to some Work Permit Agencies owned by foreigners to get advises. Some advised to set up my own Company, one tried to sell an ongoing Bankrupt Business belongs to a party known to them, same guy also tried to sell a business that has a dispute over the lease period. Be extremely careful.

Good luck,

I guess that meant something, but it isn't all that clear what. I work in IT as opposed to consult in it, I have my own company and have done for 5 years with a work permit. I provide specialised as opposed to general services.

Forming a company takes a couple of weeks, have someone do it, like the guys who advertise their services on the board and stop carrying on about it being hard. It isn't hard, you just won't listen when people give advice.

Regarding the purchase of an existing company, whether it's bankrupt or not can have some advantages regarding time and setting up if you need to do it quickly. Normally, I believe purchasing a company has nothing to do with premises etc., unless that specifically what you want.

Something just struck me as weird in the original post in this thread, who ever said you couldn't work from home? Thats a load of <deleted> as well.

If it seems a bit over the top to pay a fee to someone to do all the leg work say so, don't talk about it being hard. Talk to the guys at sunbelt if you are in Bangkok, find out how much and stop pi++ing about for goodness sake.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Well said IT. Get on with it and start earning a dollar, or is it  ' reflection ' time and and excuse to defer making the B I G decision to do it ?

[kwiz117]

Thought to express my views about some points in IT's reply than blindly saying 'Well Said".

I guess that meant something, but it isn't all that clear what. I work in IT as opposed to consult in it, I have my own company and have done for 5 years with a work permit. I provide specialised as opposed to general services.

Forming a company takes a couple of weeks, have someone do it, like the guys who advertise their services on the board and stop carrying on about it being hard. It isn't hard, you just won't listen when people give advice..

Yes, it is easy to form a company. But why the original post needs to form a Company is simply to get a Work Permit.

By forming a Company, he will have to go through all Annual Accounting stuff, Paying Taxes, Maintaining a small office and so many things. Why a person needs to go through this process when he is in a position to find a Company in Thailand to work?  Also the process of getting work permit from this 2M Bht Share Capital Companies are not very easy. It is subject to the officer who handle it.  I think enough posts in this Forum about difficulties in obtaining a work permit in these 2 M Bht S/C Companies.

Regarding the purchase of an existing company, whether it's bankrupt or not can have some advantages regarding time and setting up if you need to do it quickly.

“Well said” ..but not Correct..

I am not going to define the terms Bankrupt here.. But..

Whenever a person buys a Bankrupt business, then it is a problem. Bankrupt Businesses will have all Tax problems, Creditors issues etc attached to it. So never buy a Bankrupt Business in Thailand. But, if you can get a detail valuation and do a proper business valuation by using an international Audit/Consultancy Firm, then you can rely on it and make your decision.

Do not ever trust any Broker’s Valuation or Statements of Profit Potentials. They are simply doing Selling and Marketing.

Best Approach is to get all the Financial Statements and Details from the business that you are interested at and then do an Independent Assessment by using an Audit/Consultancy Firm like PWC, E&Y, KPMG.

Normally, I believe purchasing a company has nothing to do with premises etc., unless that specifically what you want.

Purchasing a business in Thailand, have a great deal to do with the Premises and the status of the Property. Most of the time “Goodwill” is part of the Assessment of the Valuation.

If the premises it run has any dispute with the Property Owner and have any Contingency of Loosing it, then you have to access the Value of the contingency and reduce the initial assessment accordingly.

This is just one example to explain how important the Premises is.

Just to let the readers know that I am a Chartered Certified Accountant [ACCA] –UK  by Profession.  I am aware of how the Accounting Practices work in Thailand? To what extent the Financial Statements and Profit Forecasts reflect the actual state of affairs of the Companies, and to what extent these Brokers who sell existing Businesses assess the value of Contingent Liabilities when valuing the Business. Instead, you will always see the value of Goodwill.

I am aware of many cases that purchasing existing businesses have failed in Thailand [small scale businesses] than making profits.

Finally, this reply is not targeted to harm any specific business interests in this forum. Also as per the Forum Rules, this is not a place for people to make business advertising.

Yes, I am aware that Sunbelt is the Forum Sponser.

But then, will it justify the Forum Managers to refer the Forum users to Sunbelt? I am not sure !!!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Feel free to express them then. You said absolutely nothing in the latest offering. The man made valid points, is a post mortem needed ? He said it well. His words, being at odds with yours, are not valid in your view I guess.

[kwiz117]

Sorry Doc. You have replied while I was playing with the “Quote” feature” in my above reply. It took some time to Edit the Quote’s and that resulted in not displaying the full reply.  

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Heheheh nevermind....call it even       :laugh:    Comps are damned esoteric things for we witless ones.

[Guest IT Manager]

Yes, it is easy to form a company. But why the original post needs to form a Company is simply to get a Work Permit.

By forming a Company, he will have to go through all Annual Accounting stuff, Paying Taxes, Maintaining a small office and so many things. Why a person needs to go through this process when he is in a position to find a Company in Thailand to work?  Also the process of getting work permit from this 2M Bht Share Capital Companies are not very easy. It is subject to the officer who handle it.  I think enough posts in this Forum about difficulties in obtaining a work permit in these 2 M Bht S/C Companies.

Kwiz my apologies. I didn't make the point I was getting at terribly well. In Australia, there is a thing called a shelf company, I think because it is kept there untiol someone wants a company in a hurry. I wasn't referring specifically to buying say a bar, with all the papers and the property. I was referring to a shelf company. My auditor for example keeps 3 registered companies sitting on the shelf for such an occasion with extremely broadly written articles. The articles can be adjusted for I think 2,000 baht. The address and ownership details as well.

If he keeps one for a year before sale, the price charged includes 6,000 baht audit fees which he has paid since establishment, and all the other little bits and pieces. If kept 2 years, the addition is 12,000 baht.

I shit you not, we charge 3500 baht for a work permit to be done, from the papers being filled out in Thai, in your office, presented to and processed through employment, photographs of premises, etc. This is if we form the company for you. The time consuming part we take care of. You sign where the pencil crosses are, we do everything. And the company set up is somewhat diferent but again not hugely expensive. The big problem I am seeing throughout this thread is "time", "difficulty", "effort".

We do it, same as sunbelt I guess but much smaller scale, and we charge for it. Nothing is illiegal, nothing is overlooked. We tell you what fees are applicable at the beginning, we get paid at the beginning. You get your company and work permit (if appropriate) at the end of the time taken.

Just as a throw away, 4 weeks ago we presented a customer with his company, after completing the whole thing, on his behalf, while he was in his home country (quite legally also). We started adn finished while he was there. Sunbelt can tell you about Limited Power of Attorney. He was charged the same fee as we charge everyone else, plus the Fedex costs and he got the receipts for those as well. We also asked for and received a tip of 2,000 baht.

It is altogether too easy to run round jumping on peoples cases, without knowing even the base essentials. Find out the facts and call a spade a spade, it is not too difficult if you know what you are doing as I am sure the guys at sunbelt would attest. It is too difficult IF YOU HAVEN'T DONE IT BEFORE AND ARE TRYING TO SAVE 25 SATANG. It is simply not worth the headache, to most of our clients, to go through the mill themselves. We do it. We charge for it. It isn't a living, it's a help.

[Sunbelt Asia]

They are simply doing Selling and Marketing.

More like marketing.  We take pride with our image. We have been scoring high with our brand. Tuesday in fact I was at a news conference with 32 news media interviewing us and how we are taking a very popular restaurant in Bangkok international. Marketing is our strong point.

As for selling, LOL, the truth be told, we are the absolute worse. After we meet you and you are given a number of businesses that struck your eye. We do ZERO follow up. 1. We feel it’s your decision to contact us. If you need some additional information, we are here to help. We only work with people that ask for additional listings, obtain info for their due diligence team.  2. As per Thai SEC laws, we give zero advice or our opinion on any business. One selling a business if your rate salesmanship, give us a -1!

What we do do is market businesses in a confidential matter in many newspapers, websites such as www.sunbeltasia.com that a business is for sale. This is at our cost. The buyer likewise is never charged a fee.

I can’t think of one good reason to buy a bankrupt shell, pretty naive to say the least. You would have to be on planet Pluto.

As for legal, our professional fee is 7,200 Baht to form a company. We do it is to help our clients. If it’s hard or not, I don’t have a clue. We have registered lawyers that do it all.

[rossigee]

Thankyou all for your advice.

Dr_Pat_Pong, in due course I will indeed call Mr Greg of Sunbelt Asia  for some advice and an additional perspective. And yes, I am and will be very careful about whom I trust. And yes, at the moment it is reflection time for me. I have dollar enough for now, but it won't last forever.

kwiz117, I do have an option to work for a Thai friend who owns a successful and long-standing Internet company here on Samui. I might well take her up on her offer of employment. However, I would prefer to work on a self-employed/contractual basis. I also have existing customers outside Thailand who will need my assistance again when my cover runs out. If I were to work as an employee, the terms of the work permit would likely prohibit me from working for anyone else.

######'s turn of phrase wasn't the most helpful or endearing, although I imagine it was probably quite well-intentioned. I doubt he read the post very carefully before replying. I am in no hurry to do anything as yet, so I will continue to p+++ about as much as I like and be sure to know all the facts first. I'm also fairly sure ###### does not know me enough to state that I do not listen when people give advice. On the contrary, the reason I posted in the first place was to solicit advice. My original post did mention that I am not in Bangkok. I should add that I have no desire to work in Bangkok. I hate cities with a vengeance. I'm also not at all bothered about paying someone a fee to do any necessary legwork as long as I know what the legwork involves, why it needs to be done and that it would be worthwhile. I also did not mention anything about working from home, so no <deleted> there. I simply said that I did not understand the reason behind the requirement to have formal business premises. This requirement of business premises was also mentioned by kwiz117. In fact, ######'s whole post came across in a very arrogant manner. Not the kind of person I would trust to do business with.

Basically, in my case, I have enough money to survive for now, but it won't last forever unless I start making money. So I am beginning to consider my options for when my money starts to get too low. I'm not a businessman and I'm not looking to start the next Microsoft. At the moment, at least to begin with, I doubt I'll make the 30,000 (or is it now 50,000) baht a month I hear the government would like me to make, and I don't (as yet) have several million baht to invest. I simply want to be able to work for 3 or 4 days a week, both for my existing clients (for foreign wages), and maybe for a few Thai clients for maybe 1000baht or so a day, pay tax on whatever I earn and so have enough money to pay for food and rent, and maybe some for savings (or investment) too. I enjoy my work, and would like to be able to continue it in Thailand, for the benefit of the Thai people and their economy. If my taxes and skills aren't wanted, fair enough, I'll just go home for a few months, do some more work, pay my taxes there instead and just come to Thailand to relax. But I think it'd be a shame. After all, as an Internet worker with an established client-base, I'm in a position to pick and choose which country I do my work in. It's not like I'd be stealing jobs that Thai people could otherwise do.

Anyway, the post was not necessarily about my case in particular, although it makes for a good example. It was really meant to be a more generic thread about Thai government policy regarding foreign IT workers. I heard somewhere (last year) that they were trying to encourage foreign IT workers to come to Thailand to help 'fill the IT gaps' and to teach their skills to native Thais, so they can fill these gaps too, and thus increase Thailands standing in the worldwide IT market, and maybe also help improve the efficiency of the IT departments of Thai businesses. However, with the other hand, they now seem to be actively trying to discourage us by putting up an extraordinary amount of red tape, and hiking up the cost of visas by an off-putting factor. If it was made easier, more people like me would be more inclined to bring the money we make from our overseas clients, and our skills and business to this country.

[Khun ?]

Why not send the work off to India for a few thousand baht

a month, pocket the rest and do not worry about taxes at all.

 You would accomplish not paying the queens taxes. Maybe just start a company moving all work that can be done by internet off shore and everyone can avoid the taxes from back home.

[Guest IT Manager]

######'s turn of phrase wasn't the most helpful or endearing, although I imagine it was probably quite well-intentioned. I doubt he read the post very carefully before replying. I am in no hurry to do anything as yet, so I will continue to p+++ about as much as I like and be sure to know all the facts first. I'm also fairly sure ###### does not know me enough to state that I do not listen when people give advice. On the contrary, the reason I posted in the first place was to solicit advice. My original post did mention that I am not in Bangkok. I should add that I have no desire to work in Bangkok. I hate cities with a vengeance. I'm also not at all bothered about paying someone a fee to do any necessary legwork as long as I know what the legwork involves, why it needs to be done and that it would be worthwhile. I also did not mention anything about working from home, so no <deleted> there. I simply said that I did not understand the reason behind the requirement to have formal business premises. This requirement of business premises was also mentioned by kwiz117. In fact, ######'s whole post came across in a very arrogant manner. Not the kind of person I would trust to do business with.

FWIW Rossigee had you read my post carefully, you would have been inclined to feel that I was more directing the post at Kwiz, esp the bit about pissing about.

To take my post as arrogant, in IMHO arrogant of you. I have ditched more prospects, (to my financial detriment) than I care to count, becaue they had not, could not or would not, make a decision.

Premised on your post, I suspect, that the choice would be taken from you, as to whether I did any business with you. Unlike many people, yourself included I guess, money is not the be all and the end all of living in LOS. If it is, you are in the wrong country, at the wrong time, talking to the right people about the right things.

Grains of salt pop into my mind, as I continue to do what I enjoy, for those who do TRUST me, to make balanced judgements about their needs, and assist them in coming to conclusions which are designed specifically to meet thier needs, and wonder about my devastation factor, in regards your not doing business with my company.

[Percy1]

Opinions a great aren't they.

Just like rrrrrsholes everybody has one. ( it seems every group of people also )

FWIW I would agree with Ross.

Regards

[MaiChai]

A freelancer has a lot of flexibility in working. Who can prove that you are working when sitting at home in front of a computer? I would not jump in and spend loads of money on a Thai company; look at it this way, the Thais haven't a clue how the new economy works (IT, Internet, etc). The laws don't reflect it, or make it easy to operate so. I would be entrenprenuerial, go around meet people, build up contacts, do work for people, etc, etc, if you are really keen. But there are loads of Thais that will undercut you, and you won't be able to speak Thai as well as they do, or build business relationships like they can. It probably won't be worth it. You would be better free lancing for your clients in the UK, but working in Thailand doing the work. This would be much more profitable, and the work will probably be much more rewarding. Alternativly outsourcing, but then that would suit a project manager better, rather than a technical specialist or developer.

If you do manage to build up enough work in Thailand, then I would then start to consider formalising your affairs and doing everything properly.

I personally would not make a permanent move to Thailand until I am made welcome and treated as an equal. Recent events make it quite clear that we can be kicked out if the political will exists. Remember how easy it is to do anything back home?

PS: I've been in IT 14 years, and have been working as a freelancer for about 8 years.

[percy2]

Ross ,

I belive what MC has said is worth considering.

I believe that the next set of WP rules will make it easier for a person doing international business to get a work permit.

Regards

PS the two statements were just that. Two seperate statements of my opinion.

[kwiz117]

This is a very important issue to discuss and it is very interesting to read many different opinions about the Internet Businesses and to what extent Countries recognize it.

Yes, Logically Thailand should change the Work Permit policies to reflect above changes in Internet Businesses.

Also I should highlight that this non-recognition is not only unique to Thailand. It is very common in many countries including in Developed Countries. Infact, this is an ongoing debate among Financial Reporting Bodies and Professional IT bodies in the world.

As per the Original Post, he is very much open and ready to pay Proper Taxes to Thailand, if they recognize his business to obtain a Work Permit and live in Thailand.

But unfortunately, this is not true when it comes to the Majority. I have read enough of Posts in this forum about, How to Manipulate existing Work Permit Laws? How to Register Companies bypassing existing Thai Laws? How to Get Retirement Visa by simply Depositing Money for one day?, How to Have the Control of a Thai Company for other 150 nationalities? etc.

That is how majority of Foreigners work in Thailand and stay in Thailand. Personal Income Tax law in Thailand is Self-Assessment Based like in many other countries.

Many Foreigners live in Thailand do not wish to Pay Taxes accordingly. Also many of them do not have all the requirement that Thai Authorities needs to obtain a Work Permit. Many of them are finding ways to see the loopholes in the system.

For example, crossing the border in each 90 day is a way that many Foreigners stay in Thailand legally. Imagine the situation if Thai Authorities restrict Border Crossing to specific number of times.

Like this, I have seen many loopholes in the Thai Work Permit, Company Registration system.

For example, we can argue this in 2 Ways.

1. Why we Cross the Border in each 90 days? All Officers know we cross. So why can’t we simply send the Passport through a Messenger that will have the same effect?

2. Why Thai Authorities do not fix this Loophole in the System and stop the Border Crossing to some specific Number of times. [Hope not]

The person who has posted the Original Post has concerns that will relate to 2 Different Departments in Thailand.

1. Work Permit Office.

How can a Work Permit Officers verify an Internet Based Business in a situation where people try to use it as a mean to get Work Permits?

I do not think it is possible for them to verify his/her business if it is Internet Based.

What is the minimum income they generate, and how to confirm that he/she has generated income only from Internet Based Business?

Whether he/she is not engaged in any other work while engaging in this.

2. Revenue Department

How can Revenue Department Verify

a. The Value of the Transactions

b. Whether the information in the Self Assessment Form is correct

c. Whether all Transactions have disclosed accordingly in the Tax Return

For me, I can see so many ways even a NON-IT professional can manipulate an Internet Based Business to gain unfair advantages over competitors.

Therefore, in my opinion, it is important for IT Professionals to standardize this Practice in some creative way to make it more Transparent and then put the issue forward.

I think IT Professionals have not addressed this area compared to the rate of advancement in the Profession.

For example, in Accounting we may have various ways to do a Transaction and then we can suggest many ways to report it. All suggestions may appear to be Fair from the point of the Individual who propose it with his own valid reason. But, at the end of the day, we all have to adhere to the Generally Accepted Accounting Policies and Country Specific Accounting Policies and Principles.

That is the only way to legally recognise a Transaction. All other ways will deem to consider as illegal.

Now one might argue, this has not prevented Window Dressing Situations and therefore, by Standardizing Internet Based Businesses will not guarantee a full proof system. Yes, but having a system will prevent the Majority than not having it.

Therefore, I do not blame only Thai Authorities for not recognizing Internet Businesses at this moment of time.

And in my opinion, I doubt it will happen in near future.

[rossigee]

kwiz117, if your signature didn't say so, I'd assume you were a native English speaker. Your English grammar and spelling is actually better than many native English speakers I know. It doesn't sound in any way offensive.

[base1]

hmmm? First ever post and it's deleted?

Glitch in the system or did my 2 cents offend someone?

[kwiz117]

hmmm? First ever post and it's deleted?

Glitch in the system or did my 2 cents offend someone?

If I remember correct your "2 cents" post was under another Topic. I remember I read it and even replied.

But sometimes your posts can get deleted in this forum..

I for example, deleted some of my posts by myself to stop the discussions always going way out of the original post.

   

[calmernow]

Ross

I've been here twelve years, and started several companies.  Currently, I am working independently from home deriving my income from the Internet. I would LOVE to start a self-proprietorship, get a work permit, pay taxes, etc., etc.  But the situation is made untenable by several factors including not only the very real accountbalility headaches it causes the tax people (as the other gentleman mentioned) but also by the general attitude taken by a vocal but powerful minority toward the "farang", as well as an often comical mis-understanding of the Internet.

A few quick examples may illustrate.  1.) One legislator here in the south proposed (loudly) "reclaiming" all URL's with Phuket (and other Thai place names).  When pressed, he said, "I didn't mean seizing their offices and business, just the URL's.....".  2.)  The Chairman of the TOT in Phuket said, "I see no reason why any place would need anything faster than a 128-line."  Oh my god!, 3.) One Internet business owner was asked to fill out a very long form requesting, among other things, a full list of banks, outside investors, method of business, and SUPPLIERS!, 4.)  A major online company here was charged a dreamed up tax on each URL owned, and retroactive for several years.

I could go on and on.  This type of stuff is truly pathetic.  Fortunately, there are a few who do get it and do work hard for change.  But they are a very small minority.  My decision and my very strong advice is, sadly, just to do it out of your home - lay low.  I've seen too many stick their head out in an atttempt to be honest, and get it chopped off.  

In the meantime, hopefully, you and I and the growing numbers of us out there who would love to do everything "right" here can get some movement toward some understanding of our situation, and potential contribution.  Please remember that our starting point is that even a solitary noodle-stand owner needs seven shareholders.....

Good luck

KB

[Indo-Siam]

My comments are to Ross -

I am in the business of incorporating foreign-launched companies here - work permits, entry permit extensions, and related activities.

With that said, if you earn all of your income from global clients, working via a dial-up connection from a residence in Thailand, you need not really bother with Thai labor regulations.  They are years away from catching up to (or even caring about) such work.

Some folks here will disagree and say that you are risking all sorts of bad endings by "working without a work permit", but such folks have a weak understanding about how Thai law really works.  Police are not particularly significant figures in the big picture of Thai law - it is Thai judges in courtrooms that matter, and they follow fairly normal (in western terms) rules of evidence - and it is unlikely that anyone could be convicted of working on the internet from home (barring kiddie porn, brokering fissionable materials, and similar very narrow fields that are on the global "search and destroy" lists).

Concerning working from a residence - There is no regulation prohibiting this.  What is required by revenue department is that building owner certify that your business is a registered tenant, and that a company sign be displayed outside the entrance to the business.  I have never figured out exactly why many/most residential building owners decline to allow businesses to operate - I have assumed that it either increases revenue department scrutiny on rental income, or else irritates other residential occupants who dislike living in a "business building".  But it is between you and the building owner.  Or - you can operate from a "virtual office" - my company has several client companies legally registered at our address, under an arrangement with my building owner.  Your "office" is in an office building, and you work from home.  It costs you a small amount, by western standards.

Concering cost of launching a business and obtaining work permit and extended entry permit - the costs might break a lowlife in Bangkok, but would not even raise an eyebrow with any true western professional - US $2,000 tops, with all the trimmings.  Capitalization requirement is likewise not very significant for a professional (it is the amateurs who whine).  You don't "lose" this money - you just have to demonstrate by having it that you have a life track record of having accumulated some success.  Once capitalization is paid in, you are free to use the money as you see fit.  And - of late - they don't even check you actual pay-in - if a director says it's paid-in, that's good enough.  Where things get tougher is renewing a work per it for a company that has been in business for awhile = once you have an annual financial report, they want to see it - and if you are a failing business, they turn out the lights on your work permit.  'Seems resaonable to me.

I've been doing this work for a couple of years.  Where I have seen clients loose in dealing with prfessional services firms is when they place their trust in the rock-bottom price performers - offering "too good to be true" pricing for services.  Well, such offers are no different than "too good to be true" in any other field.  The lowest price deliverers go out of business regularly here - taking client's funds with them.  To me, this just represents the process of natural selection for idiots who have no business starting businesses in Bangkok anyway.

The one place where you will face problems is if you want to work for Thai clients who rightfully want to list your billings as business expenses (instead of paying 30% corporate tax on "profits" that are actually expense monies they already paid to you).  You need to have a Thai corporate tax ID number, and you need to collect 7% VAT on behalf of the Thai government.   So - what you do is place Thai clients off limits.  That's the price you pay for not playing the game here.  And - you have to play the endless visa run game.  If you are here for the long-haul, it doesn't take too long for the cost of not incorporating to exceed the cost of going legititimate.

I did not make the rules - I just help people comply with them - as efficiently as possible.

There are basically three main farang populations around Bangkok - the "bulletproof" professional employees and entrepreneurs at one end of the spectrum, the professionally dodgy lowlifes at the other end, and the "lets just all get along" Rodney King stumblers and passers-through in the middle.  All three populations welcome newcomers to their ranks - and there are reasonably good blokes to be found in all three camps.  Lots of teeth-gnashing goes on (particularly on this board) concerning which group represents the "one true faith", but it's all just chatter.

You have to decide who you want to be.  As I understand them, your reasons for wanting to stay here are pretty much the same as mine.   So - which camp do you want to claim as your place on the spectrum?  "Up to you".

Good luck!

Steve Sykes

Managing Director

Indo-Siam Group

Bangkok

www.thaistartup.com

p.s. What I love about making a post like this - on this board - is that I will put up a wide-ranging view, including some vaguely disparaging remarks about low-lifes at one end of the food chain, and - sure as dawn follows darkness - some idiots will reply back whining about how I demeaned and insulted them by calling them lowlifes - when all I did was describe a spectrum of humanity - and the whiners are basically self-selecting themselves as low-lifes.  Step right up boys - who wants to be the demeaned low-life this week?????

[MaiChai]

Nice post calmernow. Really, we would like to do things by the book, but if doing so costs so much and involves so much red tape, why bother? And you also feel like you are waving a flag saying "gullable farang, come and get me", and all the undesireables (like the police) will turn up and try and get what they can out of you. Its almost like going legal is asking for trouble. Laying low and getting on with what you do is the streetwise thing to do. If it turns into a booming multi million baht business, then go legal, pay your taxes, and be an upstanding citizen.

[ThaiAdventure]

I like Indo Siam's posting...a bit harsh (Thailand seems to be one of the most expensive places for professional fees in the world) but most of it is in line with my experience. The thing to remember is KEEP YOUR PAPERWORK STRAIGHT.

Indo Siam Wrote:

I have never figured out exactly why many/most residential building owners decline to allow businesses to operate

BECAUSE THEY ARE TAX DODGERS!!!!!!!

I have raised a few eyebrows with the way that I work, but that is because it is project based and not recuring which is what they are used to. Showing appropriate documentation and proffering cohesive arguements actually gets you further than with the equivelent foreign governmental bodies.

Just bear in mind that if it's out of the ordinary, you will have to justify it. If your paperwork is staight you have no problem.

Some people can't be bothered though, and it is easy in Thailand to "lie low"........until you're caught!

Rossigee.

The self employed status does really not exist in Thailand. In the UK you would use a payroll company and with IR35 you would basically be considered as a company without the limited liability. That would cost you about ?600 per year. In Thailand you have to use an accountant (what was I saying about professional fees?) and auditor, it will cost you about ?2000 per year if you do nothing! What Thailand needs is an internet based payroll company (like the many in the UK and US) then I think you would feel right at home. Some of the major Thai banks are starting to get to grips with this and are offering invoicing and payroll facilities, but only for corperate accounts at present. Give it another 2 years and it will be a home from home!

[TizMe]

Off topic I know...

TA, I love your Avatar. Here it is for those who don't like to squint.

I think I'm in that office now !!!

[rossigee]

Thankyou all for your advice. I have considered all these opinions, and listened to many other peoples advice off-line as well.

So for the record, I have now bitten the bullet and am in the process of starting a Thai company, and I am slowly but carefully sifting through the elaborately-woven Thai red tape. So it will cost a bit to get rolling, and will no doubt involve a fair bit of footwork (and paperwork) too, but I should be able to recover this in no time. There's no such thing as a free lunch! Hopefully soon I'll be in a position to take up some of the offers of work I've had, and maybe even bring some money in from my foreign clients, and in turn support myself and my girlfriend in country without having to return to the UK - which is all I really wanted to do.

True, it is not as ideal and easy a situation as being a self-employed IT worker in the UK. I certainly appreciate the point of view of those who recommend that I should just 'lay low', but being ejected from Thailand is simply not a risk I wish to take. I have a happy life here (much happier than I had in the UK!) so I am quite prepared to play things by the book.

The impression I got from the APEC ordeal is that Thailand is keen enough to join the civilized world, so I expect over the next few years some of the harder-to-swallow aspects of Thai law will be softened or dropped (either voluntarily, or by international pressures, or both) and the whole IT situation in Thailand will become much more harmonious, which I believe will ultimately benefit Thailand, it's economy, and it's people.

Thanks again for all your advice.

[Axel]

p.s. What I love about making a post like this - on this board - is that I will put up a wide-ranging view, including some vaguely disparaging remarks...

What ever you think of the PS, I agree to the main part of the post. As always, well put, straight facts and researched without all the nonsense of may be, had a friend or whatever.

Indo-Siam, unfortunately, I do not need any of your services at this moment, I put your contact on my hard disk once in a while clients ask me for a recommendation.

Unfortunately, your 'competitor' and my good friend, an Aussie in BKK passed away over 1 year ago and clients from overseas want to talk to farangs.