Love And Money

[donsaiyuan]

I chose this forum to ask, because men won't understand, they'll just advise me to do something stupid. If I were to ask my sister, or another woman, i'd likely get some more concrete advice. She's going to put herself in the woman's shoes, and even though I'm her brother, she'll look evenly at the whole situation, and in the end, try to help me out.

Well, sis is asleep right now and just have to ask anyways.

When I got here, I figured i'd play superhero and drag whatever girls out of the bad life that were willing. Some were, in every sense, ready to escape it, they just came to Phuket to meet a farang man and that's it, end of concept, money and stability as the goal. Not very different from any other country in certain sense.

But when you think about love and Phuket, the veil disappears. The only true and heartfelt love I've found has been with women pure of heart, who are OK to work a tough day job to take care of themselves, and if they meet a good man, wow, even better. But she knows she has to keep going to school, get that degree, and keep life building up. If a wonderful partner is possible, then yeah, the dream of having a nice happy family starts to be viable.

It's that reality as equals, both striving, that make for a good team. My current lady doesn't bother me for much, but she needs a lot, more than I can afford to give her right now. Her having moved her 4 years ago from Isaan, this is the longest she's every gone without feeling it necessary to date guys for money. She stopped drinking, started studying the language (Thai, she speaks Lao mostly). But she's not going to look for a job. She speaks excellent English, and I meet people every day who speak no English, yet have jobs where it's required.

My girlfriend, like most of her people, feel it's the guy's duty to just buy her a business.

At first, I was the ultra-entrepreneur, we went over every conceivable way to make money in business, but not having the seed money, it's just making me sad. I would love nothing more than to carry her the rest of the way to her goal. I care about her and want her to be reunited with her son, and for him to have pride as he grows up, that his Mom is independent, and that everything she does, and everything I do, are for him to use later in life. Confidence, pride, compassion, and trust. It's got to be very hard for him to have seen his mom run off and make a life without him.

But I have run out, and I miss true love. My Isaan girl can chop down trees, hunt, and do a lot of impressive things to survive, but we are caught in a vortex of the old ways and the new, the hybrid Phuket lifestyle. She's never done any of the bad things I read about or instinctively detect on my own, -none of us are perfect.

In the last few months, some of the local girls with jobs have started to ask me out, they see me working hard to study their language, and that I have survived here for a while. Now, I am starting to fall for one in particular. She studies law at night and works all day, and is very sweet and sincere. I have kept things platonic though, but this has only made her decide that it's time to let me know she's serious about me.

My Isaan girl has never said the word love to me, when we have talked about it, I can see why her heart is hard about that one. I can see how she feels, so it doesn't kill me. She's just pragmatic like that. She's got to take care of herself.

But now high season approaches, and there's been talk, mutual, of just letting her go back to dating guys for income, and from me, that maybe it's better we move on our separate ways. I'm too poor to compete, and it really seems like she's not going to take the middle road and get a day job.

We are very sweet to one another as a couple. Is this a matter of toughing it out and remaining life partners or a 2-4 year relationship at best? I am looking for love, and at best, the current scenario only promises a sort of unspoken detente.

Love doesn't stand up well to comparative analysis. It doesn't even work to write words about it either. Go with your heart, always be true to it. The purer the better. I was a bad boy all my young years, so I found many bad girls and tried to make a right and proper life. That's a tough order to fill, you have to have guts and be able to love someone even when they scare the $#&t out of your hopes and dreams from time to time.

Maybe it's best to end this by saying i'm not trusting my life to a forum. But it's something to think about. I guess I would just ask. How do you feel about stuff like this in your own life? Guys that can't commit aside, we are talking about ones who can this time.

Have you ever felt torn about where to keep your heart's desires? Is there a special person or can things work with just about anyone if you have the ability and will to make it work?

So yeah, I don't want to get scolded for asking advice from strangers, so asking opinion or personal insight is about as far as i'll let this go. I appreciate if you understand. We're all human, how does the harsh reality of escaping poverty get tangled with love and life, it it a bad mix every time? I wish I knew. Everyone's got a different angle. I want to stick with love, I hope I find it. You too. Good luck.

Sincerely,

wondering...

[GrahamF]

From what you've said, I think she's going to choose income. Sorry!

[britmaveric]

No Such thing as a good girl - this is your first fallacy that topples everything you have written.

[donsaiyuan]

No Such thing as a good girl - this is your first fallacy that topples everything you have written.

my writing isn't a tower or building, so it will never topple.

[Datsun240Z]

No Such thing as a good girl - this is your first fallacy that topples everything you have written.

Man, has to stay boss, like it has always been in the past. Imagine woman ruling the world.

[donsaiyuan]

No Such thing as a good girl - this is your first fallacy that topples everything you have written.

Man, has to stay boss, like it has always been in the past. Imagine woman ruling the world.

yeah, we wouldn't want to ruin the top notch setup by any means. it's looking great right now, good job, kudos all around.

[Benjie]

Forget them both for now would be my advice, I don't think I've ever seen a successful outcome when someone jumps from one relationship to another. Doesn't sound like your heart is in it with the current girlfriend and the other party it seems your interest is mainly in the difference from your current girlfriend.

[redfish44]

Hi wondering,

Ironically, I think i am the first female to reply to you here in the ladies forum. Shame, as after the trouble you went to write that I think you genuinely wanted the girls opinions. It had the potential to be an interesting thread.

Have you ever felt torn about where to keep your heart's desires?

Absolutely

...Is there a special person or can things work with just about anyone if you have the ability and will to make it work?

If you find the answer, please let me know, I often wonder as well.

My man has never asked me to set up a business for him, and would prefer it if I stopped working and would happily settle in a shack and live on his small income, so I can't offer much advice from personal experience from the financial side.

[donsaiyuan]

Forget them both for now would be my advice, I don't think I've ever seen a successful outcome when someone jumps from one relationship to another. Doesn't sound like your heart is in it with the current girlfriend and the other party it seems your interest is mainly in the difference from your current girlfriend.

Yeah, I see high season coming and the last thing I want to do is allow it's chaos to ()wn me. That handles the current one. As for the other, yeah, she's yet another smart girl, -and in general, I totally go for any intellectually impressive lady.

I agree about jumping ship never working. It can backfire very very badly. It's why people have affairs in the first place, which is in itself ironic.

One asterisk* -so far, the women I have met here, when they express that they are serious, they mean it. If brought up in the traditional ways, "I want to be your girlfriend = I want to get married and raise a family together, and want only one boyfriend my entire life, -the guy who put this ring on my finger." This only applies to 'traditional' though -they usually display other characteristics, like praying before bed, observing all religious holidays, dressing modestly, deeply nurturing toward the young, focused solid on academic career, family first, and are more OK with FanTV and the night time soaps than most other entertainment. Just as serious, the entire marriage/family paradigm.

So, looking as I am for something serious, I can't discount the level of her expressed interest and what it actually means. There's happiness in this someplace, am just looking for it.

But yeah, it's true, forget both for a night and see how I feel.

Good advice though Benjie, thanks for not being one of the ogres.

[PS3]

Exactly,

Why jump from one relationship to another?

Why the hurry?

Where's the love from your side?

Coming from a man, I will advise you do to something stupid (as you claimed) = take time out!

Do same you would do back home, take it slow, be friends first. Find someone equal to you, both in education and interests. Then you have something to build on.

After a long relationship here ended, I was single (and not mongering) for seven months. I did survive it, so will you. Then I found a lady who later showed to be a real Gem!

That's what you want, isn't it?

[Ave]

Exactly,

Why jump from one relationship to another?

Why the hurry?

Where's the love from your side?

Coming from a man, I will advise you do to something stupid (as you claimed) = take time out!

Do same you would do back home, take it slow, be friends first. Find someone equal to you, both in education and interests. Then you have something to build on.

After a long relationship here ended, I was single (and not mongering) for seven months. I did survive it, so will you. Then I found a lady who later showed to be a real Gem!

That's what you want, isn't it?

Good point there. There is absolutely no hurry with these things, especially if you are looking for true love, goodness gracious.. Overwhelmed by the Thai warmth, love of family life and desire to commit I initially rushed into a catastrophic relationship that left me broke, deceived and worthless. I can't deny the fact that we both loved each other like mad for a while. On top of that I was probably pushed by that usual vanity, the need to be wanted or to build something new with someone new. I realised that the search for true love can be endless also around here as well as everywhere else. But if we have the determination to be happy on our own first that special person will appear because we'll be ready and we'll know it, no need to ask for advice, I think. Actually I think that there is definitely something that makes us be with the right people when we feel right. Sometimes we've got to understand what and where we are looking, that's what I ask myself when meeting a potential partner. The longer my chosen breaks the more intuitive and wiser I get in my relationships. I wish you good fortune building (not good luck..that's something I don't believe in)

[jfchandler]

So you mean...she's a freelance hooker and/or bar girl???

But now high season approaches, and there's been talk, mutual, of just letting her go back to dating guys for income, and from me, that maybe it's better we move on our separate ways. I'm too poor to compete, and it really seems like she's not going to take the middle road and get a day job.

[sbk]

Well, she probably has a hard pragmatic heart because that is what life has taught her is necessary. Does she feel something for you? Maybe, maybe not, but she will take one valuable lesson away from this, that she is right to be hard, pragmatic and take people for what they can give her.

I know that sounds like a judgment on you and perhaps it is a bit. But honestly, you men with your knight on a white horse syndrome always amaze me. The only person who can be "saved" is the one who wants to be saved and the only person who can do that saving is themselves. Sure, you can pull her up financially (well the general "you" rather than you personally since you say you have no money) but the fact is that if she wants the easy money lifestyle and you can't provide her with one, your love won't make her a "good woman" because she is not interested in your love.

It sounds as tho you are making excuses for yourself when in fact, if you hadn't tried to "rescue her" you probably wouldn't be feeling guilty at all. Relationships fail. Some succeed.

Whats the formula? Well, you have to respect the person you are with, and it helps a whole lot if they respect you. Love is generally a requirement for a close relationship. While couples can be married without love all of the really long term happy marriages of couples who remain close well into their old age that I have seen (including Thai people I should add) have always been marriages of love.

Its necessary for a successful relationship that both parties are committed to working on it, to working out any problems. I think that its also necessary for both partners to be willing to make compromises, not one person doing all the demanding and the other doing all the acceding.

And brit, I beg to differ. I know many "good women"

[Datsun240Z]

I will always be amazed, of how woman are thinking when going into an relationship. I guess the first thing, is they look at the list they prefer of a man, and if he is really worth the effort.

[Datsun240Z]

Its necessary for a successful relationship that both parties are committed to working on it, to working out any problems. I think that its also necessary for both partners to be willing to make compromises, not one person doing all the demanding and the other doing all the acceding.

Well said SBK. Thrust and honesty.

[Datsun240Z]

But honestly, you men with your knight on a white horse syndrome always amaze me.

Yeah, we men also do the other way around

[sbk]

I will always be amazed, of how woman are thinking when going into an relationship. I guess the first thing, is they look at the list they prefer of a man, and if he is really worth the effort.

So, you are suggesting that one has no requirements for a partner? That requiring things like honesty and integrity is what? demanding?

You seem to be turning this around to attack women and I, for one, think you are way way off base here.

You, perhaps need to re-read the OP and recognize that this isn't about you or your issues with women but that this man has come into the women's forum asking for women's advice.

[britmaveric]

^everyone is good and bad.

[rixalex]

When I got here, I figured i'd play superhero and drag whatever girls out of the bad life that were willing.

Is rescuing a girl you happen to be sexually attracted to such a noble act?

Keep the rescuing and the romancing separate would be my advice.

[Theyreallrubbish]

Reading the OP's post he already knows what he has to do and is merely looking for someone to tell him its OK so he doesn't feel guilt.

From the post, you have already reached the conclusion that the current GF is not the one for your future.

You are also aware that jumping in to a new relationship will probably be a mistake at this point, but you're very tempted for all the usual reasons.

I'll be the first to tell you that you have no need to feel any guilt whatsoever at ending the relationship with your current GF. The mere fact of her discussing going (back) to work as a prostitute means you have no need to feel even one iota of guilt over ending the relationship. Your only problem is how to end it without her losing face and thus causing a huge drama that can sometimes be dangerous here. She has already planned that out for you and laid it out in clear as clear can be steps. Agree that you don't have the money she needs. Agree to let her date other guys. Agree to be separate while this happens. Then never look back.

I would also recommend you follow your own instincts and take some time before entering into another relationship. You know your own weaknesses and seem to be very self-aware, although you tend to deny your own awareness to avoid any feelings of guilt or doing anything that could affect your own self-image.

Be strong. Carry out both these steps and in six months you'll be a free man and in the right position to really form a relationship with the right kind of girl you can build a future with.

[jubby]

'My Isaan girl can chop down trees, hunt, and do a lot of impressive things to survive'. You mean like having sex with strangers for money.

I'm not being judgemental at all here because my Thai Wife who's family also originated in Issan can also do all these things and has no doubt had sex with relative strangers in the past for money. Its just the way things are here. I wish my wife would take a bit more interest in chopping down trees these days but if she was to suggest having sex with strangers for money now, I'd run a Mile. get the F%@$ out of there. No Love there mate

Back home I didn't have to do 'impressive things to survive' and I suspect neither did you. Ask a Thousand of these girls whats more important Love or Money and they will probably reluctantly tell you that Love doesn't put food on the table' or similar words. We can afford to put more emphasis on the Love part , they cannot.

OK, now sort my Life out for me ........ Please .......

[donsaiyuan]

yeah, last night we had it out to the full extent we could handle, without it ending up as bags packed and out the door. for the first time, we slept separate. but it's like this.

1. Yes, she feels emotions for me, but has the hard heart thing working from past. normal and not even isolated to Thailand.

2. She says she cannot have "both" love and "money" because I refuse to let her wander off with some guy for a month for money.

3. I maintained that 95% of the rest of Thailand runs fine, working normal jobs, and that she should try harder, use our network of friends for leads.

4. She understands I'm not wrong to care about something like this, that to not care is to be heartless and bordering on a pimp.

5. She knows i'm not doing this to make problems for her, i'm just being honest about money right now.

6. She doesn't want a normal job but would be happy to run/own the exact same job. She feels the same exact job is impossible to get hired on.

7. I do understand about taking time and not just jumping, my past is full of relationships and the 'timing' is always different as to 'when' to resume.

8. I want her to ditch some of the hardwired anger towards farangs by hearing her out and trying to work this out.

anyhow, yeah, I love her, and if money wasn't bad this would never have come up at all.

for my part, I will have to see how she treats me now after last night. she's probably realized it's not going to work, that I insist on love, and while it tears her apart inside to be forced a bit to choose between emotions and a home life vs. that other world, she may just choose the other world -she's got a lot of old friends.

[jubby]

2. She says she cannot have "both" love and "money" because I refuse to let her wander off with some guy for a month for money.

Wow! .......... Its not uncommon behaviour i'm reliably informed but its still a Pimp in my Book..... Good Luck with it .

What do all you ladies think

[donsaiyuan]

yeah, last night we had it out to the full extent we could handle, without it ending up as bags packed and out the door. for the first time, we slept separate. but it's like this.

1. Yes, she feels emotions for me, but has the hard heart thing working from past. normal and not even isolated to Thailand.

2. She says she cannot have "both" love and "money" because I refuse to let her wander off with some guy for a month for money.

3. I maintained that 95% of the rest of Thailand runs fine, working normal jobs, and that she should try harder, use our network of friends for leads.

4. She understands I'm not wrong to care about something like this, that to not care is to be heartless and bordering on a pimp.

5. She knows i'm not doing this to make problems for her, i'm just being honest about money right now.

6. She doesn't want a normal job but would be happy to run/own the exact same job. She feels the same exact job is impossible to get hired on.

7. I do understand about taking time and not just jumping, my past is full of relationships and the 'timing' is always different as to 'when' to resume.

8. I want her to ditch some of the hardwired anger towards farangs by hearing her out and trying to work this out.

anyhow, yeah, I love her, and if money wasn't bad this would never have come up at all.

for my part, I will have to see how she treats me now after last night. she's probably realized it's not going to work, that I insist on love, and while it tears her apart inside to be forced a bit to choose between emotions and a home life vs. that other world, she may just choose the other world -she's got a lot of old friends.

but, just as well, this could work itself out. the "money" she says she needs, if we can isolate rational numbers, it's not like she's got parents to support, they passed away, and her land, if she takes time and sees this through, will have a small house on it at some stage. will have to really get down to brass tacks, -she's not a gold digger. if anything, she's incredibly shy about articulating the need for even 1000 baht for her son or brother when they need. but this talk will have to wait, -she's absolutely worn out from discourse.

[mouse]

Now wait a minute am I understanding this correctly?

You are willingn to part with a girl that comes from Isaan that has nothing to hide from you.

And the trade off is that you want to start the relationship with a potential lawyer.

Hmmmmm! Think about what you are saying!

Lawyers cannot be trusted. None of them.

[donsaiyuan]

2. She says she cannot have "both" love and "money" because I refuse to let her wander off with some guy for a month for money.

Wow! .......... Its not uncommon behaviour i'm reliably informed but its still a Pimp in my Book..... Good Luck with it .

What do all you ladies think

Yeah, when I first met her, we decided to hold off because she had a 'customer'. She was pretty floored that I accepted her when she got back and began the process of removing the sangsom bottles from her fridge, bought her a TV and paid for her son to come visit so they could be together. you have to figure, she's a woman with a son who misses her a lot, she just wants her family to be OK. I showed her how to deal better with her brother about money, he's old enough to understand she can't be the parent just because Mom has passed away. In return, we bought him some SIM cards and asked his landlady not to give him loans without calling us first. He cleaned up his act rather impressively.

My philosophical cornerstone statement to her has been "imagine how proud and happy (and yes tired) you would be to come home after a long day at work, see your son look at you with respect, and be together, knowing you can take care of yourself and him, with or without me".

Just because we can't be together doesn't mean this can't happen, and if I ever clean up my finances to have a business, she'd be the first person i'd call and hire -her English is excellent, she's got a great sense of humor, and isn't a thief or miscreant or lazy.

I grew up in deep poverty in conditions most would deplore as almost punishable by law, and I made it, but it was because caring people from the outside world stepped in and showed compassion, -I got lucky. Good people saved me. I'll never forget them, -I was done for in every sense, and they saw my plight and didn't judge me. My friends though, many never even made it out of the gate. Such is poverty in the ghetto.

Sex and morality, faith and love, money and survival. Yeah. We'll see how this ends up.

[donsaiyuan]

Now wait a minute am I understanding this correctly?

You are willingn to part with a girl that comes from Isaan that has nothing to hide from you.

And the trade off is that you want to start the relationship with a potential lawyer.

Hmmmmm! Think about what you are saying!

Lawyers cannot be trusted. None of them.

haha, yeah.

[donsaiyuan]

Well, she probably has a hard pragmatic heart because that is what life has taught her is necessary. Does she feel something for you? Maybe, maybe not, but she will take one valuable lesson away from this, that she is right to be hard, pragmatic and take people for what they can give her.

I know that sounds like a judgment on you and perhaps it is a bit. But honestly, you men with your knight on a white horse syndrome always amaze me. The only person who can be "saved" is the one who wants to be saved and the only person who can do that saving is themselves. Sure, you can pull her up financially (well the general "you" rather than you personally since you say you have no money) but the fact is that if she wants the easy money lifestyle and you can't provide her with one, your love won't make her a "good woman" because she is not interested in your love.

It sounds as tho you are making excuses for yourself when in fact, if you hadn't tried to "rescue her" you probably wouldn't be feeling guilty at all. Relationships fail. Some succeed.

Whats the formula? Well, you have to respect the person you are with, and it helps a whole lot if they respect you. Love is generally a requirement for a close relationship. While couples can be married without love all of the really long term happy marriages of couples who remain close well into their old age that I have seen (including Thai people I should add) have always been marriages of love.

Its necessary for a successful relationship that both parties are committed to working on it, to working out any problems. I think that its also necessary for both partners to be willing to make compromises, not one person doing all the demanding and the other doing all the acceding.

And brit, I beg to differ. I know many "good women"

"I think that its also necessary for both partners to be willing to make compromises, not one person doing all the demanding and the other doing all the acceding."

yeah, this statement, it really hit home for me. and last night, at some point, 3, 4, 5AM, it got said.

much of the rest is also quite sound, -out of the men who have responded, this sounds like the better of the advice.

we have our work cut out as foreigners who chose to adapt and integrate, it's all too common to |cave to demands in trade for being 'accepted'.| and still know the difference between positive and negative approaches to relationships.

as for the 'rescue' aspect, OK, yeah, I'll have to think about that. I know my background motivations on it. probably at the crux of why it drew out into dialogue.

Edited August 17, 2009 by donsaiyuan

[sbk]

I am not a man.

[jubby]

I am not a man.

Don't you mean. "Thank God, I'm not a Man"