Somchai, Chavalit And Patcharawat To Face Criminal Charges

[Plus]

... no self respecting government in the world would have permitted an illegal occupation in a location like this?

Do you know what you are talking about? Aren't you confusing govt house occupation with Oct 7 crackdown at the parliament?

If you are talking about the parliament - Democrats allowed red to surround it as well and there was no bloodshed or any violent incidents, apart from some red idiots hurling huge rocks through passing car windows.

PAD has encircled the parliament at night, Somchai held an urgent meeting mentioned in Hammered's post. At that meeting the security measures were decided on.

Next morning the police moved in without any warning or negotiations with PAD leaders. They were firing tear gas into the crowd, sometimes indiscriminately, sometimes aiming directly at people. They didn't leave any exit routes for the crowd either.

Somchai and Chavalit are among those who ordered that first assault.

Then, after the first wave and reports of hundreds of casualties, people killed, people with severed limbs, the police attacked again, and that is reflected in NACC indictment, too.

After the morning fiasco Chavalit promptly resigned, btw, around noon.

Somchai's waving blacked out papers is inappropriate at this point - the case should be tried in court, not in media. It's too late to argue his innocence before the public. Is he going to do "Thaksin", too? Is he going to call the court a joke if he loses the case?

[Samuian]

Criminal charges for doing their job.

If only they were so thorough in ensuring punishment for the yellow shirt paramilitaries that took over an international airport, laid siege to Government House for months and that cost the country billions in lost revenue and reputation.

For clearly OVERDOING their Job!

Don't want to refer to the 3.Recih, some have been

"doing their job" there just as well, some have been hung and shot

immediately after they got caught and it was understood what they had done!

Chavalit went into monk hood immediately after things went out of control on 7th October!

"Doing their job" means maiming and killing innocent demonstrators Mr. Oberkommando?

Ever heard anything about responsibility, accountability, respect and venerability?

isn't it part of the reconciliation process - or are in your view the PAD protesters "not worth it"?

Once they brought the country to its knees they were not worth it.

If they were such a mighty organisataion with such popular support, how did they manage to lose the rigged elections that put Samark and Somchai in place?

They are a stain on this country and a disgrace to the colour they wear on their shirts.

If they had been dispersed and the Government left in place we could have had a good high season and some stability. The PAD and their army masters could have gone on with plotting to win the next rigged election but that was not enough. They decided their masters snouts could not risk being out of the trough for another 4 years.

I think they were treated lightly considering what they did. Think an idiotic mob like that would have got into the Whitehouse, Houses of Parliament or the Kermlin.... Ballcocks!

Excuse me?

This is Fascism, glaring Ignorance at it's finest!

But I see, your statement is guided by some self interest - you lost out on "a good high season"

is it what the common good stops at - at self interest of some business?

Ever heard about the "world economic crisis" this is the major reason why tourism is still down,

nothing to do with the PAD's action, why aren't you questioning the "Black Songkran", slightly biased?

PAD never ever contested in elections - neither did they "bring the country to knees"

- it's not a party, the Samak and the Somchai led governments weren't governments

elected, but newly formed.

PAD was on the streets because of completely rigged government to oust it - public disobedience

no reason to use brute force - in aiming questionable teargas canisters right at the people!

Imagine that would happened to protesters occupying a runway on Heathrow, Stanford or protesting in front of

White House, the House of Parliament or whatever!

Happens many times...

Laying siege to Government House and occupying the Airport was legitimate, that the government

had lost control of the larger part of Police and Army support was it's problem, so they had to find someone

to try to break the deadlock and of course this solution was brute force... which is unacceptable,

this is why the ones responsible go to court and face the music - reconciliation has to go BOTH ways

not only in the direction someone in Montenegro, hiding in a safe place may wish it might go.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Samuian

[hammered]

Ex-Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat shows

on Tuesday cabinet resolution of Oct 6 last year

to prove his claim that he did not order violent

crackdown on yellow shirted protesters.//Sakol Sandhiratne

-- The Nation 2009/08/09

Wasnt there stuff at the time of a chaotic cabinet meeting called at night with more than a few ministers drunk? No doubt we will never know but bear in mind also that certain influential PPP MPs (named on Thai weboards) had given shall we say heated speeches at the red shirt rally before they were escorted by the police several km to attack the yellow shirts on a previous occasion.

I doubt Somchai really wanted violence but it certainly isnt beyond a number of PTP powerful ones and the police had already been seen as taking sides at that stage.

Interesting period with diofferent sides trying to get their propoganda version accepted.

Interesting however propaganda apart, isn't it useful sometimes to remind ourselves that no self respecting government in the world would have permitted an illegal occupation in a location like this? I personally had no problem in principle with a forcible ejection of the yellow shirts, sheer criminality on the leadership's part.After all several warnings had been given.Exactly the same with the red yobs in Pattaya later on.However the PAD leadership was thirsting for bloodshed and due to sloppy rather than criminal police work they eventually got it - although let's face it on a tiny scale unless one counts those morons who blew themselves up.

In general I have no problem about governments clearing crowds if they overstep the mark. I wouldnt even complain about the time I persoanlly got assaulted by police in London at a demo as anyone who goes on a demo knows this kind of thing happens.

I also agree that demonstration strategy always loves a bit of authority oevrreaction and there are in all demos those who dont mind trying to set this off. I would add that all demonstration attract those who go for the thrill of an off too and that the police always have their own fair share of thugs who just love dishing a bit out. If the PAD leadership were thirting for blood shed then I wouldnt want to think what Thaksin wanted when he called for revolution and asked the soldiers to join the red shirts! It seems they too didnt get the bloodshed they wanted. Truth is these things need to be sorted out at a poltical level and not by violence, obstruction and destruction or by trying to incite violence.

By the way at least one of the killed on Oct 7 did not blow herself up imho.

Edited to add: I dont think a single person disputed the police were and remain basically on one side in this dispute too which thinking about it does place things a little differently from in the west.

Edited September 9, 2009 by hammered

[hammered]

... no self respecting government in the world would have permitted an illegal occupation in a location like this?

Do you know what you are talking about? Aren't you confusing govt house occupation with Oct 7 crackdown at the parliament?

If you are talking about the parliament - Democrats allowed red to surround it as well and there was no bloodshed or any violent incidents, apart from some red idiots hurling huge rocks through passing car windows.

PAD has encircled the parliament at night, Somchai held an urgent meeting mentioned in Hammered's post. At that meeting the security measures were decided on.

Next morning the police moved in without any warning or negotiations with PAD leaders. They were firing tear gas into the crowd, sometimes indiscriminately, sometimes aiming directly at people. They didn't leave any exit routes for the crowd either.

Somchai and Chavalit are among those who ordered that first assault.

Then, after the first wave and reports of hundreds of casualties, people killed, people with severed limbs, the police attacked again, and that is reflected in NACC indictment, too.

After the morning fiasco Chavalit promptly resigned, btw, around noon.

Somchai's waving blacked out papers is inappropriate at this point - the case should be tried in court, not in media. It's too late to argue his innocence before the public. Is he going to do "Thaksin", too? Is he going to call the court a joke if he loses the case?

One thing that was glaringly obvious during the whole fiasco was that nobody was in charge after it became apparent that it had been a disastrous failure with many dire injuries shown live (far more injuries than at Songkhran and the local and internatuional footage showed it live) nobody was in charge or willign to take charge. The whole government disappeared. The police after the intial disaster seemingly were just left commanded by their local officer. Eventually with the government nowhere to be seen a group of people went to the police HQ and talked to the Metropolian Police chief who actually then became the first person to do something by ordering the operation stopped. He was iirc later removed by the invisible Somchai. It is interesting to compare the failure of anyone to assume obvious control and the operation spiraling into chaos with the Songkhran operation where the government were visible and command and control was evident and clear.

Anyway this case will make interesting watching for students of Thai history even if I have my doubts that the government really did anything wrong apart from hide like cowards, play pass the blame and being utterly inept. It will be interesting to see if anything comes out about the rapid moving into BKK of certain border police units loyal to a certain minister comes out too. However, in general the meme and history are already written and for most this is old wine and boring.

[Thai at Heart]

The obvious issue should be whether any of the accused knew beforehand whether the grenades that were being fired had lethal capability?

Badly trained, inexperience police or not, if the tear gas had been of a more modern, less lethal type, the number of injuries would have been massively reduced. The images that day of the cheap off the back of a lorry tear gas showed it was pretty explosive stuff, but did anyone know how dangerous the tear gas was in actuality?

[hammered]

The obvious issue should be whether any of the accused knew beforehand whether the grenades that were being fired had lethal capability?

Badly trained, inexperience police or not, if the tear gas had been of a more modern, less lethal type, the number of injuries would have been massively reduced. The images that day of the cheap off the back of a lorry tear gas showed it was pretty explosive stuff, but did anyone know how dangerous the tear gas was in actuality?

That we will never know for sure. However, it is unlikely nobody knew of this as these things are tested and trainign operations are conducted although to think Somchai or even Chavalit for that matter did is probably wrong.

[animatic]

Oh I think somebody was in charge,

but it wasn't the ones who SHOULD have been in charge.

And they abrogated their responsibilities out of hatred for PAD leaders.

The fact that The Somchai government had well BEFORE Oct 7th

lost control of the forces of order speaks volumes... they were a paper tiger.

And for such a emasculated position if was DOUBLY gauling for a Thai.

The desk says leader of the nations, but orders get laughed at, through the side of the mouth.

By this point PPP was only trying to get it's legislative agenda through and return

their 111 cronies and crony in chief to the playing field. And THAT specifically was

PAD's aim in surrounding the Parliament building, prevent a easy pass of this bogus legislation.

And to have snipped the balls of these emasculated PPP leaders must have been filling them

with long term and intractable anger... As reflected by HOW PAD was treated that day,

[TAWP]

Because TiT and anything can happen to any elected government official--any charge--we see why Abhisit must get the doctored tape matter straightened out and the principal culprits identified, charged and tried.

Doing so might open a trail elsewhere to other culprits in other crimes as well.

Elected !....by who , the people in an election?

Appointed by the junta.

Couldn't we just set a filter so one doesn't have to see these mind numbingly stupid posts ever again?

These sock-puppets with their re-hashed lies and propaganda is just so annoying and really dilutes the news-forums value.

[clausewitz]

And creating a VERY PAD at the same time. Oct 7 planted seeds for sure.

Each time they were attacked they didn't back down, they got more angry.

We know where this led. PPP mishandled PAD over and over again.

What was just a barking, howling dog, they made into a mad dog.

.

So now PAD is a VERY militarized mad dog (I agree).

Do you recall the posts on this forum where you explained how peaceful and wonderful PAD are.

When did you change your mind?

[TAWP]

My take on this:

None of the politicians above need to be charged unless there is evidence their give instructions do perform actions that would lead to the outcome it had. They were more likely than not incompetent, not evil.

The ones that should be charged is the police officials that should know how their gear works and know what theit tactics will do if done - and yet ordered it.

The politicians would be the ones appologizing and stepping down to show backbone and moral responsibility for lacking any control - it's ineptitude, but not criminal negligence.

But as we know that most TRT/PPP/PT politicians (shared with many others too) lack any moral fiber, them stepping down or apologizing for anything is a slim chance.

[animatic]

And creating a VERY PAD at the same time. Oct 7 planted seeds for sure.

Each time they were attacked they didn't back down, they got more angry.

We know where this led. PPP mishandled PAD over and over again.

What was just a barking, howling dog, they made into a mad dog.

.

So now PAD is a VERY militarized mad dog (I agree).

Do you recall the posts on this forum where you explained how peaceful and wonderful PAD are.

When did you change your mind?

I did not forget, and up until the Red violent attacks it was quite true then too.

And I made a dyslexic mistake not very but ANGRY.

I had to go out the door at the time.

From Oct. 7th onwards as the violence towards PAD escalated further,

so did their anger and martial posturing.

Red attacks for months on end forced PAD to be less peaceful in self-defence.

And no amount of red propaganda or re-writing of history,

will make that clearly observed fact change.

Oct 7th put them on high alert against the coming onslaught.

With unconscionable the night time grenading of their government house camp,

they, not unreasonably, got beyond angry, and made a move to the

detriment of all, but under duress and out of previous character.

[Samuian]

The obvious issue should be whether any of the accused knew beforehand whether the grenades that were being fired had lethal capability?

Badly trained, inexperience police or not, if the tear gas had been of a more modern, less lethal type, the number of injuries would have been massively reduced. The images that day of the cheap off the back of a lorry tear gas showed it was pretty explosive stuff, but did anyone know how dangerous the tear gas was in actuality?

Well this issue has been discussed here on TV and MANY

other Thai-Forums "ad nauseum"!

To my knowledge these Canisters are highly questionable -

their possible lethal potential must have been known as

all Ammo is tested BEFORE release - especially deterrent

like teargas grenades - the firing is in an angel, onto the street

or up into the air - NEVER at the crowd or people directly!

Cause to release their load, they have to explode first!

That's why these heavy Injuries!

Somchai already claims "I had nothing todo with it!" -

he was sitting on his hands all the time!

Why did Gen.Chavalit went right into monk hood later on?

Hope they don;t let anyone off the hook - it's a wondeful opportunity

to jump start the very important cleaning process -

if only one could be found to step forward and points his finger at those

who did give the order - there must have been someone who knew the

deadly potential of the used grenades....but then has this all to do with

the reshuffle...leading back to the assassination attempt of Sondhi?

Looks like there is plenty of house cleaning ahead!

[Plus]

My take on this:

None of the politicians above need to be charged unless there is evidence their give instructions do perform actions that would lead to the outcome it had. They were more likely than not incompetent, not evil.

The ones that should be charged is the police officials that should know how their gear works and know what theit tactics will do if done - and yet ordered it.

The politicians would be the ones appologizing and stepping down to show backbone and moral responsibility for lacking any control - it's ineptitude, but not criminal negligence.

But as we know that most TRT/PPP/PT politicians (shared with many others too) lack any moral fiber, them stepping down or apologizing for anything is a slim chance.

Well, for one thing, there were some officers who were not charged, as NACC said they were only following orders. And Somchai, Chavalit and others were ruled to be responsible. NACC studied all the relevant documents and evidence for nearly a year. I guess they know a lot better who ordered what in the space of just few hours on that fateful day.

It's only the beginning, btw, the case should pass prosecutors scrutiny and some names could be dropped from the list, and some could be added. Attorney General's office is the next body that would check if Somchai really had not idea what was going to happen, as he claims now with a piece of blackened paper.

[ThNiner]

They fired "tear gas" at the people on THREE different occasions. One in the morning around 6:15, then in the evening around 16:50, then 18:30. I could buy into the sad excuse that the police were the innocent incompetent bunch who didn't know how to fire "tear gas", if they had stopped after what they had seen from the injured in the morning. But to do the exact same thing two more times later in the day again without knowing any better? Come on.

[hammered]

The police chief just lost his job

[webfact]

POLICE CHIEF

Pol Gen Patcharawat transferred

By The Nation

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva transferred Police Chief Pol Gen Patcharawat Wongsuwan to an inactive post in the PM's Office Ministry on Wednesday.

Abhisit told reporters that he already signed the transfer order.

The decision was made after meeting with Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban and PM's Secretary General Niphon Prompan, Abhisit said. Deputy Police Chief Pol Gen Thanee Somboonsap will become acting police chief.

The transfer came two days after after the National Anti-Corruption Commission found grounds to seek both criminal and disciplinary actions against Patcharawat for his involvement in the police's crackdown on protesters in front of Parliament on October 7 last year.

The protest was led by People's Alliance for Democracy. One protester was killed and many injured when police fired tear gas into the protesters.

-- The Nation 2009/09/09

[animatic]

Off to the Ministry Of Inactive Positions.

Where he can practice thumb twiddling,

and ways to find where your face fell off and rolled to.

[peoria]

My take on this:

None of the politicians above need to be charged unless there is evidence their give instructions do perform actions that would lead to the outcome it had. They were more likely than not incompetent, not evil.

The ones that should be charged is the police officials that should know how their gear works and know what theit tactics will do if done - and yet ordered it.

The politicians would be the ones appologizing and stepping down to show backbone and moral responsibility for lacking any control - it's ineptitude, but not criminal negligence.

But as we know that most TRT/PPP/PT politicians (shared with many others too) lack any moral fiber, them stepping down or apologizing for anything is a slim chance.

Well, for one thing, there were some officers who were not charged, as NACC said they were only following orders. And Somchai, Chavalit and others were ruled to be responsible. NACC studied all the relevant documents and evidence for nearly a year. I guess they know a lot better who ordered what in the space of just few hours on that fateful day.

It's only the beginning, btw, the case should pass prosecutors scrutiny and some names could be dropped from the list, and some could be added. Attorney General's office is the next body that would check if Somchai really had not idea what was going to happen, as he claims now with a piece of blackened paper.

It will be interesting task for the new Attorney-General, what with the last one leaving office and is still listed as a defendant himself in one of the pending Thaksin corruption cases. Will the new one be up to the job?

The NACC has had the investigation a long time and has loads of evidence and witnesses to what transpired.

Edited September 9, 2009 by peoria

[LawnGnome]

Off to the Ministry Of Inactive Positions.

Where he can practice thumb twiddling,

and ways to find where your face fell off and rolled to.

Where he can make his "did not show up at court" travel plans to Cambodia, because no doubt that guy is going to be found guilty as charged.

[Rumfoord]

Court accepts Somchai's petition

Writer: BangkokPost.com

Published: 9/09/2009 at 12:48 PM

The Central Administrative Court has accepted for consideration a petition filed by former prime minister Somchai Wongsawat against the National Anti-Corruption Commission and its secretary-general, the court's chief justice Anuwat Tharasawaeng said on Wednesday.

In the petition, Mr Somchai said he had asked for access to documents and evidence used to back up allegations against him concerning the crackdown on People's Alliance for Democracy protesters on Oct 7 last year, but his request was denied by the NACC. This was a violation of the Official Information Act of 199, he said.

...

continue here

-- Bangkok Post 9/09/2009

[SHYTALK]

Because TiT and anything can happen to any elected government official--any charge--we see why Abhisit must get the doctored tape matter straightened out and the principal culprits identified, charged and tried.

Doing so might open a trail elsewhere to other culprits in other crimes as well.

Elected !....by who , the people in an election?

Appointed by the junta.

Yes, elected in open session by ALL the Mp's in the Lower House of Parliament

and then confirmed and installed by HRM.

As are ALL Prime Ministers.

What junta? There hasn't been one in years here.

Don't let facts get in the way of a 'Rant for Pay' job description.

NOT elected by the people by way of democratic elections.

The product of an overthrown legitimately elected government.

Installed in closed session by the military junta.

Thailand has never been without its junta, its running the show, and you, now.

Bring back electoral democracy

[ThNiner]

Court accepts Somchai's petition

Writer: BangkokPost.com

Published: 9/09/2009 at 12:48 PM

-- Bangkok Post 9/09/2009

But I thought according to the Reds, the court has long been controlled by the junta and has no credibility whatsoever? Or does the court only have credibility when they rule in favor of the reds?

[LawnGnome]

Because TiT and anything can happen to any elected government official--any charge--we see why Abhisit must get the doctored tape matter straightened out and the principal culprits identified, charged and tried.

Doing so might open a trail elsewhere to other culprits in other crimes as well.

Elected !....by who , the people in an election?

Appointed by the junta.

Yes, elected in open session by ALL the Mp's in the Lower House of Parliament

and then confirmed and installed by HRM.

As are ALL Prime Ministers.

What junta? There hasn't been one in years here.

Don't let facts get in the way of a 'Rant for Pay' job description.

NOT elected by the people by way of democratic elections.

The product of an overthrown legitimately elected government.

Installed in closed session by the military junta.

Thailand has never been without its junta, its running the show, and you, now.

Bring back electoral democracy

LOL!

[SHYTALK]

Any country, Any NATION, that can't field enough PROPERLY TRAINED riot control police is <deleted>.

As was noted at the time, these were border patrol police units, loyal to PPP and Thaksin,

not the Bangkok Police's riot control force that SHOULD have been used. Normally used.

Hang on,

Nobody asked you what kept your ears apart.

Are you telling us that the PAD and yellow ones were there to RIOT?

So much for the propoganda peaceful PAD demo then.

Sounds to me the PAD and yellow ones were lucky that only the borders were there.

No, that is not what I said. But you are trying to say that.

Attempting to confuse a simple issue, because you can't win the argument.

And of course start with a flame that isn't even inventive.

Was there malicious intent by the police or the politicians who ordered the clearing.I doubt it.

Clearing out protesters, regardless of intent to riot or not,

is better done by trained professionals, not loyal thugs in uniforms.

The very fact that it was Border Police trucked in specially and atypically,

and not the Bangkok Police trained in this job, makes it obviously mal-intentioned.

No doubt one of the points in court will be, Who ordered this special border unit to come do this?

LOL

YOU are forced to expletives because you cannot win the argument.

I made no flame at all, merely made a statement, but YOU have made the association in your own mind.

You thought about it and you made the association.Right for once.

YOU said the riot police needed to be there.

No confusion .

Riot police deal with riots.

The PAD were rioting, I'm with that one with you.

[SHYTALK]

Because TiT and anything can happen to any elected government official--any charge--we see why Abhisit must get the doctored tape matter straightened out and the principal culprits identified, charged and tried.

Doing so might open a trail elsewhere to other culprits in other crimes as well.

Elected !....by who , the people in an election?

Appointed by the junta.

Couldn't we just set a filter so one doesn't have to see these mind numbingly stupid posts ever again?

These sock-puppets with their re-hashed lies and propaganda is just so annoying and really dilutes the news-forums value.

You prefer junta democracy I prefer electoral democracy.

Advocator of Censorship

[SHYTALK]

My take on this:

None of the politicians above need to be charged unless there is evidence their give instructions do perform actions that would lead to the outcome it had. They were more likely than not incompetent, not evil.

The ones that should be charged is the police officials that should know how their gear works and know what theit tactics will do if done - and yet ordered it.

The politicians would be the ones appologizing and stepping down to show backbone and moral responsibility for lacking any control - it's ineptitude, but not criminal negligence.

But as we know that most TRT/PPP/PT politicians (shared with many others too) lack any moral fiber, them stepping down or apologizing for anything is a slim chance.

And the PAD and yellow ones leaders are complicit to.

They knew what they were doing was illegal .

Poor guys , in the middle of that lot for 100 baht a day.

[SHYTALK]

And creating a VERY PAD at the same time. Oct 7 planted seeds for sure.

Each time they were attacked they didn't back down, they got more angry.

We know where this led. PPP mishandled PAD over and over again.

What was just a barking, howling dog, they made into a mad dog.

.

So now PAD is a VERY militarized mad dog (I agree).

Do you recall the posts on this forum where you explained how peaceful and wonderful PAD are.

When did you change your mind?

I did not forget, and up until the Red violent attacks it was quite true then too.

And I made a dyslexic mistake not very but ANGRY.

I had to go out the door at the time.

From Oct. 7th onwards as the violence towards PAD escalated further,

so did their anger and martial posturing.

Red attacks for months on end forced PAD to be less peaceful in self-defence.

And no amount of red propaganda or re-writing of history,

will make that clearly observed fact change.

Oct 7th put them on high alert against the coming onslaught.

With unconscionable the night time grenading of their government house camp,

they, not unreasonably, got beyond angry, and made a move to the

detriment of all, but under duress and out of previous character.

But when did you change your mind?

Troll

[SHYTALK]

Off to the Ministry Of Inactive Positions.

Where he can practice thumb twiddling,

and ways to find where your face fell off and rolled to.

And write 100 lines everyday

"PAD and yellow ones Riots need riot police"

[TAWP]

Shytalk>> You need to broaden your library of snippet to paste into every thread here all days.

[SHYTALK]

Shytalk>> You need to broaden your library of snippet to paste into every thread here all days.

TAWP>> Didn't know you cared.

Best to keep it short, precise , and to the point.

No bigger point to make than electoral democracy is there.

Nowl it would be of fine benefit to global warming if some of the hot air merchants on tv were a little more economical with the words.

I will continue to post to my library thank you, rather than some examples of your library, in the posts you have had deleted recently.