Diesel Saloon

[bkmbkk]

I'm thinking of changing my civic (2007) with a diesel saloon car.

However there is not many choises - Ford Focus 2,0 TDCI, Mercedes 220 CDI and BMW 320 TDI seems to be the only ones ?

I don't want a pick up again and SuV's has no interest as well.

The price for the Mercedes and BMW is app. 3 mill and the Ford is around 1,3 mill.

Does anyone know any better option ?

Is the Ford a good car ? - or do I have to spend a fortune on a German make ?

I was originally looking for some turbocharged (Subaru /Mitsubishi) but the petrol situation (E 20) and low octane petrol in Phuket, has scared me away from that !

Now a diesel seems to be the best choice if I want a little extra torque than the civic is offering.

Any suggestion will be appriciated !

Thanks

[Gary A]

The Ford Focus is basically a German designed car. I have a 2007 Ghia model. I was quite upset when the diesel came out in 2008. I think the Focus is a well made car. I wish I had known and would have waited for the diesel.

[Plus]

From the time I spent in Ford once, it looked pretty spartan, and without various goodies you get from Toyota or Honda, like DVDs or start buttons.

I might be wrong.

Gadgets are fairly important for Thai buyers.

[Grant]

I'd prefer tobuy second hand BMW 320d

Cost about 2M

Edited September 17, 2009 by Grant

[Gary A]

From the time I spent in Ford once, it looked pretty spartan, and without various goodies you get from Toyota or Honda, like DVDs or start buttons.

I might be wrong.

Gadgets are fairly important for Thai buyers.

It depends what model you buy. The top of the line Ghia has all sorts of goodies. Power driver's seat, tilt steering wheel, steering column radio/CD control (six CD's), audio jack for mp3/audio book player, car computer, remote door locks, split front and rear air con/heater, leather seats, rear split seats fold forward to make a huge trunk. Low profile 16" tires and great road handling.

[Plus]

Are second hand diesel bimmers available already? They've been out for just over a year, and I guess only a couple of hundred have been sold so far.

I'm not sure that the price is justified. Of course you get a BMW and some extra performance, but it comes at a price, even second hand.

Another option is diesel Passat.

[rixalex]

Another option is diesel Passat.

Passat TDi would be my shout too. 600k will get you a nice used example. Strong cars.

[bkmbkk]

Thanks for the replies guys !

I have been looking at second hand Mercs. and BMW's + Passat - It puzzles me a bit there is so few saloon diesel's to choose from.

All pick up's are diesel and most suv's also !

I think in another year's time the (now new) Mercedes w204 220 cdi will be avalible second hand at about 2 mill - properly ?

That would be a good buy ,I guess - the BMW 320d is nice as well.

The Passat is a bit old fachion (at least these models here in Thailand) - I think.

Does anyone know the reason for the saloons is almost all petrol models ?

[rixalex]

Does anyone know the reason for the saloons is almost all petrol models ?

I think petrol is perceived as being more refined. Diesel too agricultural. Of course diesel engines have come a long way in the last 10 years or so. They outsell petrol cars now in the UK.

[Grant]

Are second hand diesel bimmers available already?

Yes, I saw couple on sale for 2.15M and 2.1M

_________

320D Cabrio:

http://one2car.com/CarInfor/cardetails.asp...90319&row=2

[Plus]

VW is in shambles in Thailand, given its success elsewhere the local management really screwed it.

Passat offers a ten year old diesel engine here, I don't think they've upgraded it ever since.

Grant, I think we are talking here about the only BMWs available, it's not like you can go the neighborhood's tent and find one there.

Given that these cars are barely one year old and already dropped about 600,000 in price, it is a good deal. On the other hand, if there are any issues with them, you don't have a choice.

The other place to look for them is BMW's own used car company, but they would be more expensive. I'm too lazy, but it's on bmw website.

[katabeachbum]

VW is in shambles in Thailand, given its success elsewhere the local management really screwed it.

Passat offers a ten year old diesel engine here, I don't think they've upgraded it ever since.

Grant, I think we are talking here about the only BMWs available, it's not like you can go the neighborhood's tent and find one there.

Given that these cars are barely one year old and already dropped about 600,000 in price, it is a good deal. On the other hand, if there are any issues with them, you don't have a choice.

The other place to look for them is BMW's own used car company, but they would be more expensive. I'm too lazy, but it's on bmw website.

VW, Benz and Volvo cant offer their modern diesels in LOS, cause they cant run Euro3 biodiesel. They require Euro 4 diesel. Benz new E class will have to come with old diesels here. And old petrol engines cause the lack of 98 octane petrol

I was very impressed with 2007-8 BMW 520D 163hp and even more impressed with 2008-9 BMW 520D 177hp. Even this one require Euro 4 diesel to perform good. At 3,6 mill baht, I find it too expensive though. An Accord 2,4 is 1,5 mill

[Plus]

Not sure how true this argument is - BMW and Benz are able to run on local diesel, aren't they?

Volvo actually offers several diesel modes, in S60 and S80, and that big SUV, too. Forgot about Volvos. Their diesel versions cost a over 3 mil new anyway while Passat just on the verge of 2 mil.

[Arkady]

Are second hand diesel bimmers available already? They've been out for just over a year, and I guess only a couple of hundred have been sold so far.

I'm not sure that the price is justified. Of course you get a BMW and some extra performance, but it comes at a price, even second hand.

Another option is diesel Passat.

I don't know about the BMW 320ds but there are second hand 520ds on the market, usually for about 2 m baht. The "corporate edition" with the same engine but without xenon headlights and the temperamental keyless entry and ignition is on offer for 2.99 m baht new from the dealers, compared to 3.7 m for the fully loaded edition.

[Arkady]

Thanks for the replies guys !

I have been looking at second hand Mercs. and BMW's + Passat - It puzzles me a bit there is so few saloon diesel's to choose from.

All pick up's are diesel and most suv's also !

I think in another year's time the (now new) Mercedes w204 220 cdi will be avalible second hand at about 2 mill - properly ?

That would be a good buy ,I guess - the BMW 320d is nice as well.

The Passat is a bit old fachion (at least these models here in Thailand) - I think.

Does anyone know the reason for the saloons is almost all petrol models ?

I suppose Thais associate diesel with pick-ups in the same way they associate estate cars with carryboys and because they used to have cheap petrol due to low taxes on it like Americans before the price of oil went up. They were also rather sidelined by the NGV craze.

Mercedes doesn't seem to have launched the new 2009 model W214 E class in Thailand yet either in diesel or petrol versions. But the diesel versions are available at grey market importers at B4.29m - E220CDI, B4.59m - E250CDI and a whopping B5.58m for the E300CDI. At B4.29m an overseas assembled W214 is much better value than the locally assembled old model W213 E220CDI offered by official Benz dealers at B4.0m. Performance wise it is quite a big enhancement. Unfortunately the new E220CDI and E250CDI come with the old 5 speed auto gear box. The E300CDI has the new 7 speed gear box and a 6 cylinder engine but the price is outrageous and it may not be officially sold by Benz here which would mean problems with some parts. At Thai prices the W214 E220CDI should be good enough for most and will be fairly nippy for its class anyway. Unfortunately it will be a long wait before many are available in the second hand market. The new E250CDI oddly has the same 2.2L engine as the E220CDI but the E220CDI engine has been dumbed down.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Arkady

[jcon]

I saw a 320d Cabrio today (black - like the one in the one2car link posted above) and I must say it was a pretty motor. I didn't have time to take a photo as I was driving by in a crowded soi. But I like the hard-top and the lines of the car are very nice, IMO.

Generally I consider the 3-series a chick car, but I think the 320d Cabrio is do-able for a man. It would be nice to live in Chiang Mai, perhaps to take advantage of true top-down driving...

I didn't know the 520d was going for around 2 million used? What was the price new? I've drivin it once, and was surprised with the nice amount of torque it delivered. But the active steering messed with my head, guess you probably get used to it after a ahort while. Call me old-fashioned but I don't think steering at low speed was ever that really big of problem (turning the wheel, that is) but I guess some people can't be bothered to do too much while driving...

Many of the Merc diesel saloons are fleet cars, aren't they? I think the best deal is a used 320d Cabrio, cabrios hold their value pretty well (after the initial hit).

[dominique355]

Perhaps AUDI is also worth a peek. I drive an A6 3.0 TDi and I get 7 l per 100 km or about 1000 km per tank (80 liters).

Before I moved to Thailand I used to drive AUDI, but of course the choice and the prices back in Europe are somewhat different.

Hopefully you can find a second hand AUDI. I choose AUDI because I don't like the image coming along with Mercedes-Benz and the Missus said BMW are only for mia noy.

[bkmbkk]

Yes, I saw couple on sale for 2.15M and 2.1M

I have seen a few 320d second hand at BMW Premium at about 2 mill and that could absolutely be an option - there is also a Mercedes E 270 cdi at one2car model 2004 for 2,49 mill - (sorry I coulden't post the link for some reason)

The BMW Cabrio can't be selling for app 2 mill ?? - properly more like 4 mill or something like that or ????

This diesel saloon subject can take a while before I get the right thing - it seems !

Audi and Volvo hasen't been looked much at yet - I must look more into that as well.

[katabeachbum]

Not sure how true this argument is - BMW and Benz are able to run on local diesel, aren't they?

Volvo actually offers several diesel modes, in S60 and S80, and that big SUV, too. Forgot about Volvos. Their diesel versions cost a over 3 mil new anyway while Passat just on the verge of 2 mil.

Volvo x60 was just launched, but in LOS with the old diesel engine cause the new one requires Euro 4 diesel. Both are 5 pots 2500cc.

BMW and Benz are able to run on Euro3 B5. But Benz new 220 CDi and 250 CDi requires Euro 4 diesel, so LOS will have the old 220CDi with only 150hp. All are 4 pots 2200 cc.

Same thing for VW/Audis new commonrail 2000cc.

[Arkady]

Not sure how true this argument is - BMW and Benz are able to run on local diesel, aren't they?

Volvo actually offers several diesel modes, in S60 and S80, and that big SUV, too. Forgot about Volvos. Their diesel versions cost a over 3 mil new anyway while Passat just on the verge of 2 mil.

Volvo x60 was just launched, but in LOS with the old diesel engine cause the new one requires Euro 4 diesel. Both are 5 pots 2500cc.

BMW and Benz are able to run on Euro3 B5. But Benz new 220 CDi and 250 CDi requires Euro 4 diesel, so LOS will have the old 220CDi with only 150hp. All are 4 pots 2200 cc.

Same thing for VW/Audis new commonrail 2000cc.

Interesting point. What happens to the new Benz W212 E220CDi and E250CDi if you put Euro3 B5 into them? I imagine they must in fact be Euro5 compliant as that standard came in this month in Europe.

[bkmbkk]

Not sure how true this argument is - BMW and Benz are able to run on local diesel, aren't they?

Volvo actually offers several diesel modes, in S60 and S80, and that big SUV, too. Forgot about Volvos. Their diesel versions cost a over 3 mil new anyway while Passat just on the verge of 2 mil.

Volvo x60 was just launched, but in LOS with the old diesel engine cause the new one requires Euro 4 diesel. Both are 5 pots 2500cc.

BMW and Benz are able to run on Euro3 B5. But Benz new 220 CDi and 250 CDi requires Euro 4 diesel, so LOS will have the old 220CDi with only 150hp. All are 4 pots 2200 cc.

Same thing for VW/Audis new commonrail 2000cc.

On Mercedes webside Thailand they claim the new 220 cdi has 170 hp !!

[ignis]

Not sure how true this argument is - BMW and Benz are able to run on local diesel, aren't they?

Volvo actually offers several diesel modes, in S60 and S80, and that big SUV, too. Forgot about Volvos. Their diesel versions cost a over 3 mil new anyway while Passat just on the verge of 2 mil.

The Volvo S60 is 2.6 million new with the 2,4 TD 5 cylinder engine..

I thought the Passat was no longer imported into Thailand.. ? + there was only a few TDi's sold between 2004 - 2006..

There is the Kia Carens TDi + automatic at just under 1 million

There is the Peugeot 407 HDi at 2.6 million, can have coupe or saloon or Estate version

The Skoda Superb TDi is only 1.9 million..... the TDi Octava is 1.5 million.....

The NEW Audi A6 is 5.6 million TD Quattro ......... [reason I drive the older petrol A6.]

Same price as the Citroen C6 TDi here.. makes the BMW 320d look dirt cheap at 2.9 million, and for 80,000baht more you get the 520d....

[katabeachbum]

Not sure how true this argument is - BMW and Benz are able to run on local diesel, aren't they?

Volvo actually offers several diesel modes, in S60 and S80, and that big SUV, too. Forgot about Volvos. Their diesel versions cost a over 3 mil new anyway while Passat just on the verge of 2 mil.

Volvo x60 was just launched, but in LOS with the old diesel engine cause the new one requires Euro 4 diesel. Both are 5 pots 2500cc.

BMW and Benz are able to run on Euro3 B5. But Benz new 220 CDi and 250 CDi requires Euro 4 diesel, so LOS will have the old 220CDi with only 150hp. All are 4 pots 2200 cc.

Same thing for VW/Audis new commonrail 2000cc.

Interesting point. What happens to the new Benz W212 E220CDi and E250CDi if you put Euro3 B5 into them? I imagine they must in fact be Euro5 compliant as that standard came in this month in Europe.

Except for clogging the exhaust particle filter very soon with such dirty fuel, I dont know. The computer doesnt allow the engine to run with clogged particlefilter. All these manufactorer have stated the same about diesel fuel in Asia. Their fuelsystems all come from Bosch.

I think they can manage with Euro4, but able to run Euro5.

[katabeachbum]

Not sure how true this argument is - BMW and Benz are able to run on local diesel, aren't they?

Volvo actually offers several diesel modes, in S60 and S80, and that big SUV, too. Forgot about Volvos. Their diesel versions cost a over 3 mil new anyway while Passat just on the verge of 2 mil.

Volvo x60 was just launched, but in LOS with the old diesel engine cause the new one requires Euro 4 diesel. Both are 5 pots 2500cc.

BMW and Benz are able to run on Euro3 B5. But Benz new 220 CDi and 250 CDi requires Euro 4 diesel, so LOS will have the old 220CDi with only 150hp. All are 4 pots 2200 cc.

Same thing for VW/Audis new commonrail 2000cc.

On Mercedes webside Thailand they claim the new 220 cdi has 170 hp !!

Sorry, I rememberd wrong. 150hp 2200cc was the benz E 220CDI I had in 2001 in Europe. Now its 170 hp. But in LOS we wont get the higher power 2200cc engines because of the Euro3 B5 fuel.

[bkmbkk]

Except for clogging the exhaust particle filter very soon with such dirty fuel, I dont know. The computer doesnt allow the engine to run with clogged particlefilter. All these manufactorer have stated the same about diesel fuel in Asia. Their fuelsystems all come from Bosch.

I think they can manage with Euro4, but able to run Euro5.

I thought (for a moment) it was only petrol that was low quality here, but I start to worry about the diesel as well !

Seems I have to be very careful if I go for a second hand diesel car - it might not be able to run on the crap at the pump.

Interesting point about the diesel here - I will start to investigate that subject before buying anything - thanks !

[katabeachbum]

I thought (for a moment) it was only petrol that was low quality here, but I start to worry about the diesel as well !

Seems I have to be very careful if I go for a second hand diesel car - it might not be able to run on the crap at the pump.

Interesting point about the diesel here - I will start to investigate that subject before buying anything - thanks !

Euro 4 diesel is available in LOS. Shell calls it V-Power.

The problem with all secondhand vehicles in LOS, is what kind of fuel they have used. With such great variety of petrol/ethanol and diesel/plantoil, secondhand vehicles can have damages to fuelsystem and perhaps engines.

A 2 year old diesel vehicle should not be damaged by Euro 3 B5 diesel, unless it has exhaust particlefilter which is uncommon here when sold by authorised dealers.

[jcon]

was only a few TDi's sold between 2004 - 2006..

There is the Kia Carens TDi + automatic at just under 1 million

There is the Peugeot 407 HDi at 2.6 million, can have coupe or saloon or Estate version

The Skoda Superb TDi is only 1.9 million..... the TDi Octava is 1.5 million.....

The NEW Audi A6 is 5.6 million TD Quattro ......... [reason I drive the older petrol A6.]

Same price as the Citroen C6 TDi here.. makes the BMW 320d look dirt cheap at 2.9 million, and for 80,000baht more you get the 520d....

Holy bejesus... that's a boatload of money for those cars....

Maybe the Peugeot would be a good deal 2nd hand (the HDi is new now, right? So I guess 'second hand' would require to wait for a bit - but for sure it should take a depreciation hit and a good find would be a good deal IMO).

I know the OP wants a diesel saloon - but right at the 2 million baht price point IMO there is really only one car that I would consider - an '05 (thereabouts) Harrier/Lexus RX Air S.... if you can find a good example of one then I don't think you can really go wrong there - Lexus quality, air suspension, great interior, huge moonroof, nice audio, decent driving position, etc. etc.... Especially noteworthy since the newest RX is going for ~6 million THB (<deleted> is that new price all about, anyway!?!? 50% increase???)

[63Tommy1]

BanJarn (Very common brand at least in Bkk, they have a green leaf as symbol) gasstations have Euro4 "B5" Diesel, the little testing I have done sofar is inconclusive, First I belived Shell V-Power was slightly better, giving lower consumtion, but after some further testing, I´m just not sure.

The Euro4 from BanJarn is ca 3 bath cheaper/Lit, still testing

Tommy

[ignis]

Maybe the Peugeot would be a good deal 2nd hand (the HDi is new now, right? So I guess 'second hand' would require to wait for a bit - but for sure it should take a depreciation hit and a good find would be a good deal IMO).

YES... There is a August 2008 'SW' HDi [estate] for sale near me @ 1.8 million, this model new just a year ago would have been just under 2.8 million, so a saving of almost 1 million baht... or a loss for the old owner and it has 11,700km on the clock..

[63Tommy1]

Maybe the Peugeot would be a good deal 2nd hand (the HDi is new now, right? So I guess 'second hand' would require to wait for a bit - but for sure it should take a depreciation hit and a good find would be a good deal IMO).

YES... There is a August 2008 'SW' HDi [estate] for sale near me @ 1.8 million, this model new just a year ago would have been just under 2.8 million, so a saving of almost 1 million baht... or a loss for the old owner and it has 11,700km on the clock..

If you are spending that kind of money on a car, why not have a look at a brand new Chev Captiva LTZ.

Its built in Thailand and gets good revues in Europe, its a superb car, not a Peugeot, wich are all cr=(p

Tommy