Nobukat Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 I will keep the details short & sweet... I was told by the doctor who delivered the child I thought was mine, but found out was not after 2 years of very responsible support - that the birth cert at the hospital carried no legal weight whatsoever if I did not go with the mother to register the birth at the Ampor. Also, the child's mother and I never married. Is this correct? While I highly doubt it will ever come up, could the child's mother come back later, say to the US embassy, and claim support based on this birth cert that I originally signed? (I have evidence from DNA test that I am not the father). Seems strange that the birth cert, alone, is basically worthless... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizzi39 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 I will keep the details short & sweet...I was told by the doctor who delivered the child I thought was mine, but found out was not after 2 years of very responsible support - that the birth cert at the hospital carried no legal weight whatsoever if I did not go with the mother to register the birth at the Ampor. Also, the child's mother and I never married. Is this correct? While I highly doubt it will ever come up, could the child's mother come back later, say to the US embassy, and claim support based on this birth cert that I originally signed? (I have evidence from DNA test that I am not the father). Seems strange that the birth cert, alone, is basically worthless... I don't remember getting a hospital BC when our son was born, however i will ask the missus. I know that the registration carries legal weight though, especially when i applied for his US passport and Birth abroad certificate at the US embassy. We had to get this document translated. Sorry about your dilemma. Sounds like you got taken big time. I would not worry so much about her going to US embassy to claim support. After all according to your post she did not get pregnant by you, but by another man, so she will have to locate his embassy! certainly doesn't sound like your problem anymore. Cannot help feeling bad for the kid though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario2008 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 I'm not sure about the hospital birth certificate, but as far as I know it is only a testemony that a child was born, including some details. It is not proof of fatherhood. If you are not married to the mother and also didn't go the the amphur yourself you are not considerd to be the legal father, as you did not recognise the child. The only way the mother can ake you the legal father is to file a paternity suit, which because of the DNA evidence wouldn't stand a chance. In short, don't worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobukat Posted September 18, 2009 Author Share Posted September 18, 2009 I'm not sure about the hospital birth certificate, but as far as I know it is only a testemony that a child was born, including some details. It is not proof of fatherhood.If you are not married to the mother and also didn't go the the amphur yourself you are not considerd to be the legal father, as you did not recognise the child. The only way the mother can ake you the legal father is to file a paternity suit, which because of the DNA evidence wouldn't stand a chance. In short, don't worry. Hi Mario, Thanks for the quick reply. That was basically what I thought, as well, though I am never surprised at what can happen here, so thought I'd get an opinion. Wasn't sure if I had to go back and 'challenge' the Birth Cert or not to avoid future complications. That said, I doubt she'll bother me again. I reckon she'd rather poke her own eyes out with a sharp dirty stick than lose face again with me (that was the only thing I could do out of anger/spite - was to cause her considerable loss of face with various people and family). Too bad for the child. I was a dam_n good father to him from the start. Duh. Twenty years in Asia (9 in Thailand), Thai speaking, with regular Thai friends, educated MD of a mid-size company here, and I obvously left my brains elsewhere during this particular voyage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteShrek Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 (edited) The birth certificate from the Thai hospital does carry some legal weight. We have provided it as a document to obtain a non-Thai passport (including cerified translation), or opening bank accounts for example. In addition it can be used to register the child in the Tabian bahn, so the registering at the Ampheur you refer to might be more from a Thai perspective, and may relate to the tabian bahn rather than birth itself. My wife used the birth certificate to register our kids in the tabian bahn (blue residence book), so I assume this woman could do the same if she wanted to. As a result of the birth certificate, I show as the father on the tabian bahn, even though I did not need to go with her to the Ampheur for this exercise. Usually the Tabian bahn is used for official Thai docs eg Thai passport, ID card etc rather than the birth certificate. My wife never uses her birth certificate for anything but frequently uses the tabian bahn. My view would be that if someone presented the birth certificate to say an embassy, it would show "prima facie" evidence of you being the father. However, the lack of marriage certificate, and particularly the DNA test are probably stronger counter evidence. If this woman wanted to obtain say a foreign passport you would need to sign. If this woman wanted to register the birth in your country you would also need to sign. For certain nationalities, eg British if you are not married, the child cannot automatically claim dual Thai-British nationality either... So my guess would be for most things in Thailand she could do a quite lot with it, starting with registering the child in the tabian bahn. Although if she actually wanted to pin any reponsibilities on you, the moment she does you have strong documentation to refute them. For most things outside Thailand she couldn't do much at all with it, without your consent, and if she tried you should be able to easily contest anything. Edited September 18, 2009 by WhiteShrek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario2008 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Under Thai law a new born child must be registered within 15 days at the Amphur of birth. That is not necesarily the amphur where the child is registered in someones tabien barn. An embassy will not accept a hospital BC, as that is not the Thai legal document of someones birth. If it happens it is ignorence by the embassy (official) in question. In a court of law it will hold no significance if someone signed the hospital birth certificate, as that is not the correct legal procedure with which you legitimise a child in Thailand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venturalaw Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 (edited) You are fortunate that this did not happen to you in California for you would most likely be obligated to pay ongoing child support until the child turned 18, or, if a full time high school student, until graduation or turning 19, whichever first occured. The law is clear - it is what is in the best interest of the child. If you were 'dad' for 2 years, it makes no difference if you can later prove via DNA otherwise. Edited September 18, 2009 by venturalaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteShrek Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 (edited) Just to clarify some possible confusion around hospital birth certificate vs birth certificate. Strictly speaking what Mario says is correct. However, top hospitals like Bumrungrad will perform a full service and register the birth at the Thai regsitrary office for you. You don't need to go in person. So in their case the hospital birth certificate and the official one they refer to are one and the same, they don't give you a separate cert. That's why many people, myself included will say that they never registered the birth. Technically speaking we didn't Bumrungrad did. Bottom line is if the birth was in a hospital like Bumrungrad then chances are that the birth is registered already... Edited September 18, 2009 by WhiteShrek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobukat Posted September 21, 2009 Author Share Posted September 21, 2009 Just to clarify some possible confusion around hospital birth certificate vs birth certificate. Strictly speaking what Mario says is correct. However, top hospitals like Bumrungrad will perform a full service and register the birth at the Thai regsitrary office for you. You don't need to go in person. So in their case the hospital birth certificate and the official one they refer to are one and the same, they don't give you a separate cert. That's why many people, myself included will say that they never registered the birth. Technically speaking we didn't Bumrungrad did. Bottom line is if the birth was in a hospital like Bumrungrad then chances are that the birth is registered already... I am American. Hospital was Srisiam on Navamin Road - a Thai private hospital (quite good, and it was very inexpensive). They did not do any automatic registering. So, from what Mario says, the Birth Cert at the hospital that I signed, and provided a copy of my passport with, is not legally 'binding'. But if the mother took this birth cert to use to register for the blue book, could she actually use my name without me being there? She claimed she used another name to register him, and she used her mother's family name as his family name from other documents I had seen - his insurance and other docs used the mother's family name. Funny to think that the first proof of birth at the hospital - the birth certificate - carries little weight at the 'formal registration' at the Amphor. So, how can one use a different father's name at the Amphore when the first birth cert has another name? I guess the birth cert just proves the birth, but doesn not prove who the real father is... If she truly registered the boy using her mother's maiden name, she would not have to come back to me to get permission for his future Thai passport, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario2008 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Just to clarify some possible confusion around hospital birth certificate vs birth certificate. Strictly speaking what Mario says is correct. However, top hospitals like Bumrungrad will perform a full service and register the birth at the Thai regsitrary office for you. You don't need to go in person. So in their case the hospital birth certificate and the official one they refer to are one and the same, they don't give you a separate cert. That's why many people, myself included will say that they never registered the birth. Technically speaking we didn't Bumrungrad did. Bottom line is if the birth was in a hospital like Bumrungrad then chances are that the birth is registered already... Unfortunately, some people have found out that the service provided by the hospital is fine if you are legaly married. But when you are not married, you did not register the birth in person at the amphur and as a result didn't legitimise the child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario2008 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I am American. Hospital was Srisiam on Navamin Road - a Thai private hospital (quite good, and it was very inexpensive). They did not do any automatic registering. So, from what Mario says, the Birth Cert at the hospital that I signed, and provided a copy of my passport with, is not legally 'binding'. But if the mother took this birth cert to use to register for the blue book, could she actually use my name without me being there? She claimed she used another name to register him, and she used her mother's family name as his family name from other documents I had seen - his insurance and other docs used the mother's family name. Funny to think that the first proof of birth at the hospital - the birth certificate - carries little weight at the 'formal registration' at the Amphor. So, how can one use a different father's name at the Amphore when the first birth cert has another name? I guess the birth cert just proves the birth, but doesn not prove who the real father is... If she truly registered the boy using her mother's maiden name, she would not have to come back to me to get permission for his future Thai passport, etc. Legitimisation of a child only takes place in the way described by law. The law states that you have to register the birth yourself at the amphur if you were not married to the mother. You didn't do that and hence didn't legitimised the child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobukat Posted September 21, 2009 Author Share Posted September 21, 2009 I am American. Hospital was Srisiam on Navamin Road - a Thai private hospital (quite good, and it was very inexpensive). They did not do any automatic registering. So, from what Mario says, the Birth Cert at the hospital that I signed, and provided a copy of my passport with, is not legally 'binding'. But if the mother took this birth cert to use to register for the blue book, could she actually use my name without me being there? She claimed she used another name to register him, and she used her mother's family name as his family name from other documents I had seen - his insurance and other docs used the mother's family name. Funny to think that the first proof of birth at the hospital - the birth certificate - carries little weight at the 'formal registration' at the Amphor. So, how can one use a different father's name at the Amphore when the first birth cert has another name? I guess the birth cert just proves the birth, but doesn not prove who the real father is... If she truly registered the boy using her mother's maiden name, she would not have to come back to me to get permission for his future Thai passport, etc. Legitimisation of a child only takes place in the way described by law. The law states that you have to register the birth yourself at the amphur if you were not married to the mother. You didn't do that and hence didn't legitimised the child. Thanks Mario, You've obviously done the research on this subject. Apologies for asking redundant questions...And thanks for not injecting unnecessary 'editorial' comments about the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario2008 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 It is very easy to check if you have legitimised the child or not, if you have the birth certificate. A Thai birt certificate lists 4 names: - name of child - name of mother - name of father - name of person registering the child If the name of the father is not the same as the person listed as having registered the child there is no legitimitisation. This of course only applies for people not married to the mother. If you are married to the mother the law automatically presumes the husband is the father of the child, regardless of who registered the birth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krap Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 It is very easy to check if you have legitimised the child or not, if you have the birth certificate. A Thai birt certificate lists 4 names:- name of child - name of mother - name of father - name of person registering the child If the name of the father is not the same as the person listed as having registered the child there is no legitimitisation. This of course only applies for people not married to the mother. If you are married to the mother the law automatically presumes the husband is the father of the child, regardless of who registered the birth. A little confused here. Is it on the b.c that the fahters singature should apear? I mean its said that not untill u register it at the amphur are u the legal father but the b.c is filled out in the hospital? At the hospital names are filled in and not until u go to the amphur do u finally sign the b.c? What weight does the "blue" book hold? In this case if first someone name was written on the b.c and then another man signs at the amphur...how is it possible for him to be the legal father as ur name should apear twice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario2008 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 The BC is filled out at the amphur and is soemthng different than the certificate from the hospital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krap Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 The BC is filled out at the amphur and is soemthng different than the certificate from the hospital. Thnxs, that explains it. What would the document from the hospital be called? Whats the timelimit for that paper... Do u know anything about extension of the 15 days for b.c, for ex in the case some information is missing to make it clear. What is the minimum information that has to be on the b.c, for ex must nationality be included or is that only for the blue book? I remember u stated: "You can check the birth certificate. A birth certificate lists four names: - name of the child - name of the mother - name of the father - name of the person registering the birth" Only names and not nationallity? Where is it registered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario2008 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 The BC is filled out at the amphur and is soemthng different than the certificate from the hospital. Thnxs, that explains it. What would the document from the hospital be called? Whats the timelimit for that paper... Do u know anything about extension of the 15 days for b.c, for ex in the case some information is missing to make it clear. What is the minimum information that has to be on the b.c, for ex must nationality be included or is that only for the blue book? I remember u stated: "You can check the birth certificate. A birth certificate lists four names: - name of the child - name of the mother - name of the father - name of the person registering the birth" Only names and not nationallity? Where is it registered? The hospital BC I normaly call a medical birth certificate, but I don't know if it has an official name and if there is an official timelimit for the paper. I know nothing about extending the time limit of 15 days for registering the birth. Nationality is also included on the birh cetificate, at least that of the parents. That is also important for the blue book, as only a Thai national can be on a blue book. But the blue book is for registering where the child lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lost_in_space Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 I will keep the details short & sweet...I was told by the doctor who delivered the child I thought was mine, but found out was not after 2 years of very responsible support - that the birth cert at the hospital carried no legal weight whatsoever if I did not go with the mother to register the birth at the Ampor. Also, the child's mother and I never married. Is this correct? While I highly doubt it will ever come up, could the child's mother come back later, say to the US embassy, and claim support based on this birth cert that I originally signed? (I have evidence from DNA test that I am not the father). Seems strange that the birth cert, alone, is basically worthless... Well, when a man applies for permanent residency in Thailand, he needs to provide DNA evidence of paternity. The Thai BC isn't sufficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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