Overtime Payment

[Guido1976]

Hello All of you,

I would like to talk about overtime payment in Thailand and what is normal,

and if there are any legal rules about this subject.

I'm from the Netherlands and my girlfriend is Thai. She's a well educated smart woman, university

Graduated, and works in a small wealth management company with an Canadian boss as

Personal assistant &Customer service.

She has lot of responsibilities and she works very hard. Frequently she has to run the office by her own when the boss travels abroad. She arranges seminars, has meetings with the legal advisors, takes care of the accounting of the company and so on.

Lately I have huge fights and discussions about her work and the amount of time she spends in the office.

The problem is that she doesn't get overtime paid. Officially she works from 8 till 5. But on an average working day she doest stop before 6, more often it's between 7 and 8 and Sometimes but still very often she's working till 9, 10 and even 11 in the evening.

If I count roughly she makes at least 10 hours a week overtime. Every week, for the whole year already.

So now and then, when the company gives seminars, she also works on Saturdays for about 12 hours and for this she gets one holiday.

She's doing this without any problem as she is very dedicated to her work and wants it to be Perfect.

I keep saying to her that her boss is using her by not paying the overtime. She's a bit afraid to ask for it and in these kinds of things not secure enough about herself to come up for her right.

She tells me I see things negatively and that I can't compare the Netherlands to Thailand.

According her it's not usual to pay overtime or to ask for it and this is how it works in Thailand.

Her salary is 30.000 bath a month for a 40 hour working week with 10 holidays a year.( on top of the normal national holidays).

In her opinion this is a high salary and therefore it is required to make so much overtime without getting paid for it.

She now works there for 1 year and I pushed her to have a talk with her boss about this subject.

He offered her now a 2 month salary bonus for her performance last year. Off course this is a generous offer, but strictly seen, it's half of the money she would have got if he had paid her overtime.

She told him now she will not make overtime anymore, only a few times a month when necessary and to do that for free.

Unfortunately she didn't ask for a salary raise which in my opinion she deserves after one year working in that company.

She feels awkward to ask and get paid for overtime and wants to make a contribution to the company's performance with making overtime without getting paid for it.

I partly blame her for thinking too much on his side and bank account than about her own bank account.

I partly blame her boss for not paying it by himself.

In my opinion it is not awkward to get overtime paid if the amount of work requires you to make overtime. In my opinion getting paid for overtime doest make you greedy or a bad person. In my opinion it's the fairest situation to get paid for work where the boss earns money with.

I'm not saying she has to charge every 15 minutes overtime. It's a give and take thing.

But on evenings she has to work till 11 wouldn't it be more than fair that She gets some extra money? At the end of the month

she also has to pay the bills and support her family financially.

She says the company can not afford it. This company expanded from 1 employee (my gf) to 6 employees within a year. She helped starting up this company and she's very involved in making the company successful. But she's still an employee. It's not that she is a co-owner.

I keep telling her that her boss might have a nice smile and has a fancy talk but behind that smile he only thinks with his own bank account in his mind and that he will never offer her overtime payment or salary raise if she doesn't ask for it.

I tell her she's blinded by his attitude and personality and that she has to open her eyes more.

Even how hard I try, I can't get some sense of reality in her mind.

As our fights about this subject sometimes really get out of hand I would like to ask your opinion about this as it might widen my view on things and maybe it makes me see it in a differerent way. I sometimes hold on too much to my own believe so I could use some input.

As I love her very much I see it as my task to protect her for being mistreated. Am I wrong to push that so hard and do I just have to accept this?

I don't work in Thailand but abroad in various countries for a Dutch company and I work with a Dutch labour contract. So I have no personal experience in working in Thailand under Thai laws.

So my question is also, what is normal in Thailand regarding overtime. Are these hours to be paid at all, at the normal rate or at a higher rate?

And are Saturdays to be calculated as normal weekday rates or also at a higher rate?

Are there legal laws about this subject and does anyone know where to find more information?

Thanks everybody for their help and input.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Guido1976

[h90]

Hello All of you,

I would like to talk about overtime payment in Thailand and what is normal,

and if there are any legal rules about this subject.

I'm from the Netherlands and my girlfriend is Thai. She's a well educated smart woman, university

Graduated, and works in a small wealth management company with an Canadian boss as

Personal assistant &Customer service.

She has lot of responsibilities and she works very hard. Frequently she has to run the office by her own when the boss travels abroad. She arranges seminars, has meetings with the legal advisors, takes care of the accounting of the company and so on.

Lately I have huge fights and discussions about her work and the amount of time she spends in the office.

The problem is that she doesn't get overtime paid. Officially she works from 8 till 5. But on an average working day she doest stop before 6, more often it's between 7 and 8 and Sometimes but still very often she's working till 9, 10 and even 11 in the evening.

If I count roughly she makes at least 10 hours a week overtime. Every week, for the whole year already.

So now and then, when the company gives seminars, she also works on Saturdays for about 12 hours and for this she gets one holiday.

She's doing this without any problem as she is very dedicated to her work and wants it to be Perfect.

I keep saying to her that her boss is using her by not paying the overtime. She's a bit afraid to ask for it and in these kinds of things not secure enough about herself to come up for her right.

She tells me I see things negatively and that I can't compare the Netherlands to Thailand.

According her it's not usual to pay overtime or to ask for it and this is how it works in Thailand.

Her salary is 30.000 bath a month for a 40 hour working week with 10 holidays a year.( on top of the normal national holidays).

In her opinion this is a high salary and therefore it is required to make so much overtime without getting paid for it.

She now works there for 1 year and I pushed her to have a talk with her boss about this subject.

He offered her now a 2 month salary bonus for her performance last year. Off course this is a generous offer, but strictly seen, it's half of the money she would have got if he had paid her overtime.

She told him now she will not make overtime anymore, only a few times a month when necessary and to do that for free.

Unfortunately she didn't ask for a salary raise which in my opinion she deserves after one year working in that company.

She feels awkward to ask and get paid for overtime and wants to make a contribution to the company's performance with making overtime without getting paid for it.

I partly blame her for thinking too much on his side and bank account than about her own bank account.

I partly blame her boss for not paying it by himself.

In my opinion it is not awkward to get overtime paid if the amount of work requires you to make overtime. In my opinion getting paid for overtime doest make you greedy or a bad person. In my opinion it's the fairest situation to get paid for work where the boss earns money with.

I'm not saying she has to charge every 15 minutes overtime. It's a give and take thing.

But on evenings she has to work till 11 wouldn't it be more than fair that She gets some extra money? At the end of the month

she also has to pay the bills and support her family financially.

She says the company can not afford it. This company expanded from 1 employee (my gf) to 6 employees within a year. She helped starting up this company and she's very involved in making the company successful. But she's still an employee. It's not that she is a co-owner.

I keep telling her that her boss might have a nice smile and has a fancy talk but behind that smile he only thinks with his own bank account in his mind and that he will never offer her overtime payment or salary raise if she doesn't ask for it.

I tell her she's blinded by his attitude and personality and that she has to open her eyes more.

Even how hard I try, I can't get some sense of reality in her mind.

As our fights about this subject sometimes really get out of hand I would like to ask your opinion about this as it might widen my view on things and maybe it makes me see it in a differerent way. I sometimes hold on too much to my own believe so I could use some input.

As I love her very much I see it as my task to protect her for being mistreated. Am I wrong to push that so hard and do I just have to accept this?

I don't work in Thailand but abroad in various countries for a Dutch company and I work with a Dutch labour contract. So I have no personal experience in working in Thailand under Thai laws.

So my question is also, what is normal in Thailand regarding overtime. Are these hours to be paid at all, at the normal rate or at a higher rate?

And are Saturdays to be calculated as normal weekday rates or also at a higher rate?

Are there legal laws about this subject and does anyone know where to find more information?

Thanks everybody for their help and input.

in managment positions there is no overtime payment, neither in Europe nor in Thailand.

[Spoonman]

I would like to talk about overtime payment in Thailand and what is normal,

Her salary

I dont know many people on a salary that get paid overtime for any time worked above and beyond the standard week.....

Im sure someone will correct me if im wrong but a 40hr week in Thailand seems short, i was under the impression the standard working week was 48hrs.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Spoonman

[Guido1976]

in managment positions there is no overtime payment, neither in Europe nor in Thailand.

She's the executive assistant. his secretary. She has no people working under her, nor does she has anything

to say about other people or entiteld to make decicisions in the company.

She's just very good in her job that she's capable of working on her own and doing management tasks and run the office by herself.

But she doestn have a management position.

Maybe she's just doing more than her actual job requires.

[QED]

On her salary with an annual bonus I don't think she should get overtime. My PA earns 35k p/m which is very high for a Thai (she has a masters in English so she's worth it IMO), and at that level I consider her to be junior management where overtime is not applicable. Sundays or holidays would merit overtime, but extra hours during the week are just part of the job.

As for the legalities this should all be laid out in her contract, and is not subject to any particular law (other than contract law obviously).

[Naam]

in managment positions there is no overtime payment, neither in Europe nor in Thailand.

all said, case closed

[Guido1976]

On her salary with an annual bonus I don't think she should get overtime. My PA earns 35k p/m which is very high for a Thai (she has a masters in English so she's worth it IMO), and at that level I consider her to be junior management where overtime is not applicable. Sundays or holidays would merit overtime, but extra hours during the week are just part of the job.

As for the legalities this should all be laid out in her contract, and is not subject to any particular law (other than contract law obviously).

The annual bonus is not fixed. but would depend on her performance. My GF is graduated at university at English major also.

If she has to finish paperwork and make presentations for her boss till 11 in the evening, how can that be considered as just part of the job?

And if you are hired as the secretary girl but suddenly the boss is seeing that as junior management so he can get away with it for

not paying overtime, is that fair then?

Her contract is laid out at 30K for 5 days a week from 8 till 5:30. What's the use of a job contract stating that kind of hours

if all hours needed for the job are not paid anyway?

[Guido1976]

http://www.business-in-asia.com/thai_labor_law.htm

I did find some more info an above mentioned site.

The maximum number of work hours is eight per day or 48 per week, except for work deemed by law to be hazardous, in which case employment is limited to seven hours per day and 42 hours per week. Overtime compensation must be paid at a rate of between 1.5 to three times the normal hourly rate to qualifying employees.

Employees are entitled to 13 national holidays per year, plus a minimum of six days of vacation after one year of consecutive work. Thirty annual paid sick days is standard, and an employer may require a doctor’s certificate for sick leave of three days or more. Female employees are entitled to 90 days of maternity leave, including 45 days of paid leave. The minimum daily wage rate varies, depending upon location, from 137 baht (US$ 3.43) in some provincial areas to 175 baht (US$ 4.38) in Bangkok. Salaries for full-time office and management staff range from approximately 15,000 baht per month (US$ 375) for general office staff to 150,000 baht per month (US$ 3,750) for an IT manager.

[QED]

In your previous post you said she is the Executive Assistant, now you say she is the 'secretary girl'. Big difference here, the secretary girl would be on a salary of 8-10,000 p/m and would be paid overtime. Your girlfriends salary level and job title make it patently obvious that she was not hired to type and file memos as a secretary would, but to be an assistant to the manager, which pays much higher as a senior position but with no overtime.

She has a good job and a good salary, don't get so worked up about it.

[Lancelot]

in managment positions there is no overtime payment, neither in Europe nor in Thailand.

Same for USA

[Guido1976]

In your previous post you said she is the Executive Assistant, now you say she is the 'secretary girl'. Big difference here, the secretary girl would be on a salary of 8-10,000 p/m and would be paid overtime. Your girlfriends salary level and job title make it patently obvious that she was not hired to type and file memos as a secretary would, but to be an assistant to the manager, which pays much higher as a senior position but with no overtime.

She has a good job and a good salary, don't get so worked up about it.

It's true that her namecard says executive assistant. But isn't that another kind of name of being the secretary of the boss?

I mean, she's not doing management jobs.

I agree that she has a good job with a good salary and maybe I do get worked too much about it. That's why I need other point of

views.

[GarryP]

It does not matter what her name card says. She is doing a junior management level job and is being paid accordingly. Her job title could be "maid" but if her actual responsibilities are management level and she is paid a management level salary, you should not expect her to be paid overtime. In many cases such as this, she would, however, be entitled to charge the company for the taxi home late at night if she usually uses public transport.

[Spoonman]

I think the keyword here is salary.

[CWMcMurray]

Hate to tell you, but I think she is right... she should not expect O/T pay.

I workfor a Thai company and the situationdescribed seems pretty standard for white collar workers (no need to be management).

Some don't or won't put in the extra mile and are likely to never make it into management; others do and they are likely to get promoted faster and get higher bonuses...

This is the way it works here and in a lot of western countries as well.

[Guido1976]

okay, the opinion is quitte clear and I'm starting to see her point of view.

Seems to me that things in holland are very different than in other places in europe/asia or usa.

The jobs she's carrying out fits exactly the same description as what the secretary girls are doing at

my company. But they are not even close to be seen as management jobs.

So basicaly in Thailand they profile your job rather quickly up to be named as management position

compared to Holland. The tasks you perform are the same they only put a different name on it.

[hhgz]

""So basicaly in Thailand they profile your job rather quickly up to be named as management position

compared to Holland. The tasks you perform are the same they only put a different name on it."

Oh, please. Your GF is a big girl, and you should allow her to settle this.

[meom]

As our fights about this subject sometimes really get out of hand I would like to ask your opinion about this as it might widen my view on things and maybe it makes me see it in a differerent way. I sometimes hold on too much to my own believe so I could use some input.

As I love her very much I see it as my task to protect her for being mistreated. Am I wrong to push that so hard and do I just have to accept this?

I don't work in Thailand but abroad in various countries for a Dutch company and I work with a Dutch labour contract. So I have no personal experience in working in Thailand under Thai laws.

Are you really fighting with her about the overtime or do you just feel bad that she has to work late when you're there and because of that you can't get laid?

[Guido1976]

As our fights about this subject sometimes really get out of hand I would like to ask your opinion about this as it might widen my view on things and maybe it makes me see it in a differerent way. I sometimes hold on too much to my own believe so I could use some input.

As I love her very much I see it as my task to protect her for being mistreated. Am I wrong to push that so hard and do I just have to accept this?

I don't work in Thailand but abroad in various countries for a Dutch company and I work with a Dutch labour contract. So I have no personal experience in working in Thailand under Thai laws.

Are you really fighting with her about the overtime or do you just feel bad that she has to work late when you're there and because of that you can't get laid?

I work outside thailand so not at home everynight. when i'm in thailand she controls the overtime till max 6 in the evening.

[cocopops]

As our fights about this subject sometimes really get out of hand I would like to ask your opinion about this as it might widen my view on things and maybe it makes me see it in a differerent way. I sometimes hold on too much to my own believe so I could use some input.

As I love her very much I see it as my task to protect her for being mistreated. Am I wrong to push that so hard and do I just have to accept this?

I don't work in Thailand but abroad in various countries for a Dutch company and I work with a Dutch labour contract. So I have no personal experience in working in Thailand under Thai laws.

Are you really fighting with her about the overtime or do you just feel bad that she has to work late when you're there and because of that you can't get laid?

Are you really as obnoxious as you seem or do you just feel bad that Guido1976 is a better person than you are?

[meom]

The more I drink the less obnoxious I get so maybe we should all meet up for a beer sometime.

[Naam]

It's true that her namecard says executive assistant. But isn't that another kind of name of being the secretary of the boss? I mean, she's not doing management jobs.

Guido, i don't know in which companies you worked or have experience. but based on my experience i can assure you that in all cases i know a "secretary of the boss" is indeed performing management functions.

[thaihome]

Sounds like the OP has the typical working attitude from a country that is highly socialistic and maybe he works in a manual position. Both of these characteristics would make it difficult to understand some who has the attitude that the job must get done and the pay will take care of itself (which in this case is being done). If his GF started bugging the boss about OT or stopped getting the jobs done as needed, she would soon be marginalized and out on the streets eventually. Some people just never get that and expect to get paid for every hour they work and they reap what the sow

TH

[GuestHouse]

I think the keyword here is salary.

The Key is actually, 'Terms and Conditions of Contract of Employment'.

Get your girlfriend to check what it says in her T&Cs.

----

If being Staff, Management and or holding a Salaried Position are obstacles to being paid overtime, can you please do me a favour and keep quiet about it.

[quiksilva]

Guesthouse is right, as it derives from the fact that they must be "qualifying employees", as stated in the T&C's

In every firm I have worked with management, sales people, and executive assistants etc do not qualify for overtime pay.

[madjbs]

Having to work up until 9pm-11pm in not acceptable in my opinion. If she has to work that late regularly, then they need to employ more staff.

Working up till say 7.30pm-8.30pm with no overtime is pretty normal though.

[jrbkk64]

Guido,

I am from Holland and completely disagree with your statements on similar jobs there. I have worked several management jobs there and either myself or my Secretary would not be paid OT and neither were we expecting to be paid. My Executive Secretary (her title) in Thailand works when I need her to be there; weekends, evenings, early morning, 24hr stdby on mobile, etc. No overtime, salary about 35k (2-3months bonus). This is VERY normal in most countries I have worked and I have yet to meet anyone who has a problem with it.

Actually in the whole of Asia this type of work ethic is considered normal, try Japan ;-).

Ofcourse everything needs to stay within reason but from what you say about your GF's job and the hours she makes, it is still within reason.

I would guess that you are still quite young and get OT for extra hours worked in your current job. If you want to move up you better change your overly socialist attitude! and let your GF do the things she seems to enjoy!

JR

[CaptHaddock]

Mr. Guido,

Here in New York City, your girlfriend wouldn't get overtime either. Certainly not in the financial industry. Unfortunately, it's just normal, everyday abuse of employees. In what other situation is the buyer allowed to get more of what he is buying without paying more? When I was younger climbing up the compensation ladder myself I put in all kinds of extra hours, none of which got overtime although it did make me successful over time. Now that I am older and wiser however, if the office calls me at home in the evening with some problem I make it a point to leave an hour earlier the next day. The labor market in Thailand is strongly a buyer's market and abuse of employees is rife. Did you know, for example, that if a cashier at the supermarket or the bank makes a mistake that costs her employer money she will have to pay out of her own pocket? In the US, that would be illegal, but those are the terms of employment in Thailand.